Conference terri::cars_uk

    
    I am seriously considering buying a BMW and I have done a bit or 
    research etc etc...... but I would like to have some general info
    from anyone who already owns one. Do you recommend one ? 
    what model ? what are the advantages dis-advantages ? do you know
    of a 'good' second-hand BMW garage ? etc
         
    Answers appreciated.
    
    TP
    
    
    
    

    re .60
    
    3-series or 5- series ?
    
    Al

    I have a 323i. I bought it one year old with 39k miles on the clock.
    I've driven it for the last three years and have had no problems
    at all with it, apart for having to sell the wife to be able to
    afford to have it serviced. In the three years, I've done another
    60k miles. Still going strong.

    For motorway work it is very good as long as you have the seats
    well adjusted. If not it can be a real PAIN.

    When I get rid of this one, I'll probably buy another. It is basically
    a solid, well made car with few if any gadgets. I'm the sort of person
    who hates the "electric everything" brigade ...

    Hope this was objective enough for you ...    
    
    Mark    
    

    
    Re .62
    
    As I'm getting married soon, I'd be interested to know what
    price you got for your wife, just in case I ever run short of 
    money. :^)

    Mark
    

    I've had two BMW series 3's. 316 and 318i.
    
    In terms of engineering and build quality I felt they were excellent.
    The benefit of this is few, if any rattles, and no wind noise from
    incorrectly fitting doors, windows, or sunroofs. Also it means that
    they last. They have excellent anti-corrosion protection. They keep
    their value. They continue to look good.
    
    They have very understated interiors, which I like, with probably the 
    best ergonomics of any car i've driven. Everything fell to hand,
    switches were where you expected them to be and didn't require you to
    take your eyes off the road  to find them. 
    
    I found the driving position was excellent (5'10" - taller people may 
    dislike the headroom), and the ride and gearing was ideal for motorway
    cruising. The 318i gave better economy than the carburatted (sic) 316.
    
    These are ideal cars as long as you don't think of them as
    	a) sprint cars  - they will beat other saloon cars away from
    the lights, but if you want impressive acceleration get a 323 or
    325 ( or any M-Technic BMW)
    	b) hot hatch eaters - they don't handle in the wet, but what
    do you expect from a front engine/rear drive car ?
    	c) every extra bar the kitchen sink - true everything is an
    extra, but then useful things like electrically controlled wing
    mirrors, and lights in glove compartments and boots - even a nicad
    torch in the glove compartment are standard. I had a sunroof in
    both the cars i had but that was personal preference, i certainly
    wouldn't discount a car because it didn't have one.
    
    They are designed as fast, comfortable, safe A to B cars and this
    they do extremely well.
    
    I was extremely satisfied with the marque, have yet to meet a detractor
    who came up with any valid critisism, and have every intention of
    buying another BMW when the opportunity presents itself.

    	I had a 320 for some time. I go along with the previous reply.
    	
    	Particularly good cruiser. Seats too hard for my liking though.
    
    	Don't take any notice of MitchellD, he thinks every car should
    	be a racing car!.
    
    	-John

        > Don't take any notice of MitchellD, he thinks every car should
    	> be a racing car!.

    	With Derek driving every car IS a racing car!
    
    	Mark

    
    We had a 4 year old 318i as a company car, about a year ago, and I
    didn't like it at all. I found the seats uncomfortable on a long trip,
    (as either passenger or driver), the acceleration was abysmal (it
    improved after about a month of being _driven_ as oppose to sitting in
    London traffic jams (which was how the previous 'keeper' had used it),
    but was still not, very good, and it had a very dis-concerting rev-limiter 
    - hit the limit and the revs were cut completely! 
    
    Along country lanes, I found it uncomfortable as a passenger, but on
    short motorway type trips it was reasonable, before the the uncomfortable
    seats became noticeable!
    
    Elaine
    
    (Oh, and the window winder handle came off in my hand - to the great
    amusement of the passengers!)

    I was also the owner of a 320 (1978) from 85-87 I did 40'000 km
    with it, (120'000 - 160'000) including a lot of motorway. I had
    no real problems with it, other than a broken cam drive belt - and
    that cost the earth to fix, as the cylinder head needed attention
    (broken valves etc...)
    
    Very good car though, and I go along with the other comments, as
    to avoiding the "go faster" stripes, spoilers and driving technique.
    
    Paul

    I have a 318 (1980) bought with 50,000Km, now has 183,000km, no
    major problems. As previously mentioned they are well built and
    last when looked after. Agree about the seats, the standard seats
    are a little uncomfortable after about 4 hours, don't know about
    the newer models or sports seats option. 
    
    I'm currently looking for a new/used one either a 323i, 320i or
    318i (in that order). What better recommendation can I give you.
    
    Jan
    
    PS 325i is out for me as it goes into a higher insurance bracket.

    I have a 325i and wouldn't trade it for anything.  Make sure you get
    cruise control - I find that when I don't use it that I'm constantly
    going 80+ mph 8-).
    
    -Al

    I agree with what has been said about the 318i.  They were so
    underpowered and under equiped that BMW stopped exporting them to the
    US 2 years ago.  The six cylinder models get a higher level of
    standard equipment, and have engine/gearbox combinations that
    facilitate s sporty, fun driving experience.  The other thing that you
    get with a BMW is little bits of quality that are easily overlooked
    (like the fact that when you are traveling down the window at 80+ mph
    and have the windows closed - you don't hear the wind leaking in around
    the window and door seals - like many Vauxhall, Ford and Japanese
    models).
    
    The other thing to be said about the 6 cyl is that the engine noise is
    reduced in highway driving, because the revs are reduced.  On the other
    hand so is gas milage....
    
    Its in your best interest to drive as many models of all manufacturers
    vehicles.  It's you that signs on the dotted line.
    
    -Al

    Mmmmm. I have to agree about noise levels. The lease on my 325 Sport 
    came  up  some time ago. I put off the evil day of replacing it till 
    last December when I got a Cavalier GSi.  The  difference  was  VERY 
    noticable;  the  Gsi  is  still  a  fun  car to drive, but the power 
    delivery seems so raw!! The BMW adverts showing (still)  glasses  of 
    water  on  their  Cylinder  blocks  are quite credible!! Mind you, I 
    couldn't afford another Sport; the  tax-man  would  be  rubbing  his 
    little hands with glee!!

    When jump starting a BMW 5-series saloon during the weekend I was
    suprised to find that the wires to the -ve side of the battery were red
    and those to the +ve were black. Everything seemed to be original
    equipment and as the connectors are different on +ve and -ve it looked
    like it was meant to be that way. 
    
    Is this normal for BMWs, German cars, etc?
    
    I can't remember seeing this on any car before, but then again it's not
    the first thing I would look at.
    
     Peter

    BMW are planning to build a new "Super-mini" in there old factory
    in the DDR (Eisenach). The car is designated E30 and will be about
    the size of a Fiat Uno (don't laugh) with four doors and a rear
    hatch (hatchback by any other name). It will be equiped with a 1.4
    litre (75hp) four cylinder engine based on the 316/318 motor (engine
    already running in prototype form). 
       
    It will be initially be for sale to "East block" countries and should
    start production by the end of 1992. 
       
    No it isn't April the first...
       
    Jan

    
    What's wrong with a Fiat Uno?
    
    Mark

    Nothing wrong with Fiat Uno's but it does rather spoil the luxury
    image of BMW to be compared with the Uno's, Golfs etc.
    
    Jan

    
    Oops, there are people who think Golfs ARE as good as BMWs.
    
    There are also people who think Toyotas are too!

    Mark
    

    
    Re .81
    
    Of course! But who needs to!
    
    Mark :^)

RE a few

> What's wrong with a Fiat Uno?


    F I A T
    i t g o
    x   a n
        i y
        n




8-)

    heard rumours that BeeEmm are going to produce a 4wd and/or front wheel
    drive cars.
    
    anyone (in germany?) confirm or deny?
    eddie

	I thought they did a 4wd version of the 325i and 320i? It has an
	"x" suffix after the number, or does this mean something else.

	Gordon

They have 'em in the states.  325ix.  They cost about �3,000 more than a 325i.


-Al

    In France too ... for the last couple of years at least.

    I've only ever seen the 325ix though ...

  Mark

That 'silly orange glow' is easy on the eyes during night driving.  I've never
enountered any problems with the interior or exterior of my BMW.  The service at
my local dealership is also top notch.

Not to mention that a BMW 325i could no doubt drive circles around a Cortina
Ghia.

>Not to mention that a BMW 325i could no doubt drive circles around a Cortina
>Ghia.


is this the infamous tail happy behaviour of 3 & 5 series bmw's ???


...Art


	;-)

>A cortina Ghia got more luxury

	Pardon !!!. If you class really tacky plastic, 'cloth' material and 
	carpets that look worn after a few months and cabin ergonomic qualities
	that rate a 2 out of 10 as luxurious then yes, it had more luxury.


	Come on Derek, the amount of bits you get doesn't count towards luxury,
	it's the quality of those provided.

	Gordon

	Pah ! I get it know , your a closet BMW fan. Now come on, own
	up Derek I'll bet you run 318i on the quiet ( well good soundproofing )
	and just do this anti-BM thing 'cos you like them so much.

	Had me fooled there for a minute...

	Gordon

    
    What I want to know is....
    
    
    
    If these people can afford a BMW.....why don't they buy a decent car ?
    
    :-)

    Like what?

    
    a Mini ? :-)

    or a 2CV special?

    
    re.:.?
    
    I'cant confirm the rumours on the new BMW you've heard about.
    Must be a joke !!
    
    Sascha from munich

    RE:.102
    
    The article I read was in "Auto Bild".
    
    Back to what's better than a BMW try:
     
    YUGO
    TRABANT
    WARTBURG
    POLSKI

    RE:. 103  Doctor it must be a relapse, Mr Mitchell is slagging off
              BM's again  ...:-)     

    Jan    
    

    BMW are bringing out a 1.4 Litre engine that will go into the 3-Series.
    There was an article in CAR (I thinkl) magazine about it.
    
    Grant

RE .103

> 320i are gutless as well!

That's why you get the 325i 8-)

0-60 in 7.5 sec

0-60 in 7.5 seconds sounds pretty gutless to me as well.

Depends on what you're used to!!

;-) ;-) and another ;-) for good measure.

Mark.

It it pretty gutless.......compared to my Yamaha Maxim 700!

But with snow on the ground, the Beemer will have to do 8-(

   Re .105,

   There was an article about BMW building a 1.4 engine, (real power
   eh?) but, I think it said they were going to put it into a car they
   would build and sell in Eastern Europe?

    Maybe they're bringing back a hopped up version of the Isetta??? :-)
    
    Dave

    			=� BMW comfort? �=
    
       Isetta?  Once you've experienced the luxury of a Heinkle, 
       you'd never look at an Isetta again! 

       I once did a 90 mile round trip to Thruxton in a Heinkle, with
       three of us in the car. I can tell you, I wouldn't do that in an
       Isetta
                            
       Ian.

       

       I wouldn't do it again in a Heinkle, either!

The Mitchell's are on holiday for the next two weeks with no access to this
notefile. So all you BMW fans can postulate over the cars merits without
fear of immediate retribution. :-) :-) 

In passing my comments are limited to driving a 320i on the Drive and
Survive course. Did about 70 miles each. 

Quite - Yes Handling - Not an issue (not with the instructor and three
other people. Everyone was on best driving behavour)

Engine - Smooth (boring?)
 	 Underpowered (About on par with Ford 1600). Well demonstrated with
	 everyone trying to practice overtaking.

Seats - Well can't say they were uncomfortable. We were changing position
 	every 30-45 mins. I'll reserve comment until I've spent a least 3 
	hours at the wheel. 

Interior - Not very luxurious in look but it felt solid and well made. 
Sorry for the brief comments must go...

Dave. 

    
   Re .112
    
    Yeah, but think of the vitriol (sp?) that Derek will be saving up
    for his return!
    
    Mark :^)
    

    
    Dear Mitchelld,
    
    I think by now we all know how much you are against BMW's.
    
    Your derogatory comments have been noted.  Thank you.
    
    TP
    
     

    Re:.114
    
    Decided what to get yet??
    
    Jan
    
   

    
    I am still doing my research......I suppose I want to to make the 
    right decision.   I have contacted BMW and they are sending me 
    some info.   So far I am still interested in a BMW and I would 
    like to thank all who have responded to my request re 60.60
    
    People have made the following observations:
                                          
    Positive                    &          Negative  (points about BMW)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Good Performance and        !    Bad handling in wet wheather (?)
         Engineering.           !
                                !    Unconfortable seating during long
    Keep their value.           !    journeys (?)                             
                                !
    It lasts for a 'long' time  !
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    You may want to add to this list. 
    
    I will have the opportunity to 'test drive' a 318I or 320I so I
    will have first hand experience.
    
    I'll let you know.
    
    Happy (BMW) motoring
    
    
    
                                                             
    
                                                  
    
    
    
    

    re-1
    
    Add looks ordanary to you negative list.
    
    Grant

    
    And add 
    
    'Weighs less than a Volvo' to your positive list.
    
    Mark :^)

    
    Surprised to see "performance" in your plus list. All the Bm's I've
    driven up to the 325i have been sluggish (at best, less sparkling
    than many hothatches), with highly suspect rear ends - even the
    current ones.
    
    Nicely finished, reliable, hold resale value - all true. Value for
    money - all depends on your criteria.
    
    Same (or better) performance available at much less money, with
    good build quality. Check out some of the current Japs - Mazda 626
    16v, Mitsubishi 16v etc. 
    
    I did, & saved over #7k on equivalent specs.
                                         

    While the 323i was in being fixed, the BM garage let us borrow a new
    316i for the weekend (we had been offered a 525i, but since it was an
    automatic and it was the wife had gone to collect it, she took a manual
    316i instead ...:-(  ).

    Anyway, to say that this is a totally different car from the one I have
    would be an understatement.

    The handling it totally diferent. The back end sticks to the road like 
    glue, and by using the throttle, to can change the handling from over
    steer to under steer very easily, and in a controlled way. This had me
    foxed at first having been used to the 323 ... with that you throw it 
    into a corner, wait for the back end to start to slip, add a bit of
    opposite lock and some power and away you go again. Trying this in the
    316 is not to be recommended ... the back end doesn't come out and with
    no power on, the over steer makes the whole car feel like it is about
    to tip up over the front wheel. Once I was used to it though, the car
    was totally transformed for me.

    As for performance, I suspect that this engine is not the same as the
    previous 316 and 318 engine. It was really lively. A top speed in excess
    of an indicated 115mph is easy to achieve, and with the tremendous sound
    insolation, you have to look at the speedo and the relative speed that
    you are passing all the other cars around to believe it is that fast.
    The acceleration was also very good with a well selected set of gear
    ratios. The engine cut out comes in at about 6500 rpm.

    All in all, I liked the car. It was strange to be in a car which I am
    very familiar with and find that just about every mechanical aspect of
    it is different to the one I have.

    The only thing I didn't like about the car was the fuel consumption.
    It is hard to get above 20mpg at a constant 100mph. In the 323 I get
    around 25mpg at this speed.

    Perhaps BMW are getting to grips with the performance and handling
    of its entry level cars at last ...

  Mark

    I feel the comments regarding BMW performance are very "well spread" in
    this note.
    
    What is good and what is bad performance ?  I think we will all
    agree that it is a matter of personal preference.
    
    Personally, I found the 0-100Km/h in around 10 seconds, and the
    175km top speed of my 320/6 sufficient for the motorway driving
    that I was doing at the time of ownership.
    
    On handling, it is true that a front wheel drive car is better,
    but I used mine for two winters to go skiing with... in the years
    we had snow! I did equip it with 4 snow tyres, and did have to fit
    chains on maybee 3-4 occasions, which I find quite acceptable over
    2 years. There is a lot to do with driving technique, and the level
    of handling you should expect from the car - A BMW is a nice
    comfortable saloon, with fair performance and handling, it is not
    a sports car...
    
    Paul
    

   re: .121

    What I was trying to point out with my previous notes is that
    the newer model 3 series cars doo seem a little more like a sports
    car than they used to.

    The 320 you had is probably very similar to the 323 I have. It is not
    at all the same car as the new model ... it looks the same, but that's
    about it.

  Mark

Really?????

    This is purely out of interest!
    
    One of my mates works for the advertising agency that holds the
    Mercedes account. 
      It seems that Merc and BMW have completely different ways of 
    approaching the concept of producing cars.
    
    Mercedes, well known for their engineering, research, engineer and
    produce the car . Then they get the agency to find the right market
    area and present the car to that market.
    
    BMW, on the other hand do their market research first and find seek
    out a niche in the market. The marketeers then present the designers
    with the brief for the car which is then built and distributed
    to the market that, theoretically, should be sitting there waiting
    for it.
                                  
    Well that's it put very simply anyway!!
    
    Dave.

    
    A magazine have just tested the BMW 316 against the Rover 216 GSi
    and guess what? The Rover won EASILY!!!
    
    The BMW was described as 'a  golden oldie, in the twilight years'!.
    
    When's the new 3-series due out?
    
    Mark

    What exactly did the Rover won ???
    
    TP
    
    ps: I like 'golden oldies'
    
    

    
    Re :- What exactly did the Rover won ???
    
    The comparison.
    
    In every respect the Rover came out ahead (can't say I noticed resale
    value, but the old 200s usually hold their value pretty well, and
    it's much to early to estimate that for the Rover) of the BMW.
    
    Re :- ps: I like 'golden oldies'
    
    And nothing wrong with that, but it just goes to show that the BMW
    IS slipping behind the competition with the 3 series (which is
    essentially 15 years old!).  That's why I ask when the new 3 series
    is due out.

    Mark
    

    The new 3 Series is due in Spring 1991, but the current Series will
    be retained for a year or two in two-door and Touring versions until
    these variations are available in the new guise.
    

    New 3 series due here in Autumn (Germany), two door coupe is due
    end of next year (or so the dealer said at the weekend).

   Jan

    re: .128

    You sure about the 15 years bit ??? I though the current model started
    life as Y reg. That can't be 15 years ago ...

    Mark

Yeah, but the current model began essentially as a revamp of the "old" 3 series
mostly with cosmetic changes, and subsequently little changes have appeared in
the past 6-7 years.  In essence, it's 15 years old - like the Volvo 2 series!

    
    Re .132
    
    Exactly,
    
    They simply 'facelifted' the 3 series. It didn't change mechanically
    to an significant degree and they didn't put any more space in the
    car (anyone ever travelled in the back of a 3 series?).
    
    So basically it IS a 15 year old design.
    
    Mark

    By that arguement, the 3-series is just a face-lifted 1502/1602/2002
    series ...

    MOST new models are just face-lifted versions of the old ones
    really. The R5 is just a face-lifted R4 by the same token, which
    in itself was just a face-lifted version of ... and on it goes.

    Mark

    
    Don't be silly Mark.
    
    Take a look at the 3-series. It's the same car under the skin as
    the one first released.
    
    It ISN'T the same as the 02 series in many respects.
    
    The 3 series facelift is as much a new model as the Ital was a 
    different model to the Marina! They just changed a few body panels,
    but the mechanicals and the majority of the significant dimensions
    remained unchanged.
    
    Mark
    

    Seems like some people didn't read the rave reviews when the last
    series came out. Revised suspension, low profile tyres, new body (a
    significant improvement in my eyes), revised engines, different trim
    and seat options.
    
    One of the main stories was about a BMW that finally handled, as I
    remember, Sweden were thinking of stopping imports of the old 3 series
    because it was dangerous, nothing like that happened to the new series.
    
    Like most things, if the basic principle is Ok, front engine, rear
    drive, then improving and refining these components over the years can
    lead ultimately to something that is as good as some new designs.
    
    From the arguments here, the 5, 7 series are just rehashes of the old
    series. I know that they have improved over the old model by large
    degrees.

Of course, the "old" 316 had much more power available at the wheels than the
"new" one, because the "new" one was optimised for economical cruising rather
than raw acceleration - if you can say a 316 "accelerates" much at all!  One
reason I cancelled the "new" 316 I had on order and went for another Volvo was
that the Volvo was just as quick to 60 mph, had the same top speed (near enough)
and, most impotant, you CAN sit in the back of a Volvo!

    re: .137

    How "new" is "new" ??? The 316i I had on loan the other week could
    really accelerate well, considering it is anly a 1.6 engine in a heavy
    body. Top speed seemed to be above an indicated 115mph. Is this just
    a slight redesign, or a significant one ... I don't know, but suspect
    it to be a significant one.

    Having been in the "old" "new" 318 (or 316), I would agree that it
    was completely gutless, but the "new" new" one isn't ...

    Try one for yourself and find out, rather than just reading reviews.

   Mark

   BTW I do agree about lack of space in the car ... considering the external
   size, you don't get a lot of room inside. With two kids and luggage, it is
   really cramped. I'm considering the estate version for my mext car ...

did the 316 have/has a 1.8 litre engine?

...Art

    re: .139

    One of them did ... might have been the old 316i. It was the
    exception to the numbering scheme ...

    The new 316i is a 1.6 engine ...

    Mark

>>	Try one for yourself and find out, rather than just reading reviews.

Exactly what I did!   I had the car on order (delivery was about 2 months)
but there was no demonstrator available.  As soon as the demo came in I went
and drove it - and immediately cancelled my order.

Neither do I read reviews, not usually anyway. I have never read a review that
was not a subjective opinion.  Yes, you can get straight facts and figures but
they usually mean very little in real life; witness the quoted acceleration
timings for example - who would ever drive their car that way anyway?  Buying
a car is HIGHLY subjective for 99.9% of people and NOT buying a particular car
is highly subjective for the other 0.1%.  So, unless your opinions just happen
to cooincide perfectly with the reviewer, chances are you'll disagree on many
points.  The ONLY answer is to >> Try one for yourself

    re: .141

    ... and was it the current model 316i you tried ???

    
    Quite right.
    
    Anyway, how did this get into a "You've not driven one so how do
    you know" slanging match.
    
    I said that the BMW was described as a "Golden oldie", not exactly
    a criticsm I would have thought. The fact that the car is largely
    unaltered for the last 15 years and still sells means that BMW must
    have got it mostly right.
    
    The fact remains though that the 3 series IS getting long in the
    tooth. It has limited room for a car of its class/price, it DOES
    still have idiosyncratic handling (according to people here and
    others I know who own them) and the performance is nothing special
    unless you go to the expensive 325i or M3 models.
    
    If there's nothing wrong with the 3 series why are BMW replacing
    it? I can only imagine that they've come to the conclusion that
    , to keep the sales of the 3 series going against improving competition
    , they will need to produce a model which can compete on an equal
    footing.

    Mark
    

    
    What's this Mark,going for a record ?   3-4 seconds must be the
    shortest time a note has been in existence before being deleted
    !!
    
    Nigel 
    

    
    It's back now! Even before you could comment on it's deletion! :^)
    
    The difference? I missed the 'r' out of my name!
    
    Mark

	re: .141

    ... and was it the current model 316i you tried ???


In 1983 I doubt it!  But then again it wasn't the current model Volvo either 8-)

    re: .146

    It is probably worth giving the new model a try some time just to see
    the improvement. As I said, the old model was a dog, the new one is quite 
    acceptable. You no longer need to buy the 325i to get adequate performance
    or handling, as I had previously thought to be the case. As far as I can
    make out, this new engine hasn't been around that long, so I suspect that
    most peoples comments on the 316i are now no longer valid.

  Mark

    BTW The bit about "try one before commenting" wasn't directed at you.
    It was more a general comment. I agree with what you said about reviews 
    being subjective, and not normally valid when it comes to selecting a car 
    you intend to buy.

    The 316 (1.8 engine) changed to the 316i (1.6i engine) in October
    1988.  
    
    I've got one of the first 316i's that were sold.  I ordered a 316
    but got a 316i. 
    
    A lot of people have been saying how gutless the car is in acceleration
    terms.  I totally disagree.  OK, its no R5 Turbo, or XR2/3, but
    its fast enough for most people.
    
    I agree about the lack of rear legroom, but that doesn't concern
    me too greatly.  I'm more interested in front legroom and seat to
    roof height and there's plenty of that for me.  Anyone who has met
    me will know why these are important to me ....
    
    I plan to migrate to 318i (or 320i) Touring, but only because BMW
    have no plans to bring out a 316i Touring.
    
    

	I'd agree that it's essentially 15 years old. The new 3 series
	would probably be out by now but for the fact that people keep
	on buying the current ones, so they don't see the need to push
	the new model along. Everybody knows it will look like a 
	miniature 5 series when it does appear.

	Sales are being helped along by the fact that they're cheaper
	now, in real terms, than they used to be too. As the exclusivity
	declines so does the price.

	-John

How much of a redesign do people expect?  When it works you stick with it.  You
seek out the least desireable attribute of the vehicle and upgrade it  Take the
"old" 320i and new 320i.  The body of the car has been re-shaped.  The interior
redesigned (with better, easier to operate controls that are closer to the
driver's hands; assuming that he/she will keep them on the wheel as much as 
possible).  Handling characteristics much better too.  The battery has also been
moved (in 325i's in the US anyway) to the trunk/boot for better weight
distribution and longer battery life.

15 years old?  perhaps in theory, but not in the practice of driving.

-Al

How *new* are the new 5 and 7 series?  They look different from the outside, but
is that it????????

       
    Exclusivity, during the 80's a total of 950,000 3 series were sold
    in Germany alone. Now every Fritz on the block has one...
       
    Jan

    Having driven 3 Series for the last 5 years and been forced to change
    by the Chancellors policy of crucifying anyone that wants to drive an
    "expensive" car, I feel that I must step in to defent the 3 Series. I
    have always been very pleased with my BMW's. I prefer 'hard' seats. I had
    the BMW sports seats on my last model and they were the most
    comfortable seats that I have ever had (including ergonomic Volvo's). I
    also took my 17 year old son plus 2 of his friends to Bordeaux for a
    cycling championship. We drove from Cherbourg to Bordeaux in 8.5 hours
    with one break for lunch and one other petrol stop. The boot was full
    of luggage and I had 3 BMX bikes on the roof so the car was "quite"
    full. However they all said that they found the ride comfortable. In
    fact the only major complaint was when I played my 'Best of the Eagles'
    cassette. They said that they preferred Beethoven. (However I had to
    endure U2, The Cure etc.) I have now switched to a SAAB 9000 Turbo. It
    is everything that I thought it would be but I am still longing for my
    old 325i Sport. What is all this rambling about you may ask? Well it is
    purely as follows :-
    
    1)	Everyone has their own set of priorities. (Thank God else we would
    all be riding around in identical cars).
    2)	The changes in the 3 series, whilst appearing to be cosmetic, made
    it still a viable car for the late 80's.
    3)	Performance is not the sole motivator of BMW drivers. Build quality
    counts as well in my book.
    4)	If you have a good thing how often should you "upgrade" it.
    
    Enough from me. I am waiting to see what the new 318s (16 valve beast)
    is like. If it looks good then anyone for a SAAB Turbo!
    

My only comments on them are that they seem a little expensive for what they
are, and the headroom in the back - oohh...! I'm 6' 6" = 1m 96cm, have TWO
pimples on.. etc etc. I had to endure a ride from Geneva - Dijon and back. I 
had to lie down to limit the discomfort.

    
    
    
    	Any of you Bmw watchers know anything about a 'new' car ?
    
    	I pass a BMW garage here in Munich on the way to work and have seen
    	this strange car in there for the last few days, It looks like the
    	Z1 but its not ( ie very low, sloping bonnet ,front lights like the
    	Z1) its a hard top, got four doors high at the back and very low at
    	the front and it is a BM cos its gotthe kidney grille, It cant be 
    	an 850i can it ?, I thought they were only 2 door and it doesn't
    	look like the 850's I have seen. An 850 passed me on sunday
    	returning from Garmisch Partenkirken and it was not hanging around
    
    
    	I could go and have a look i suppose !, anybody know
    
    	Garry
    

   Sounds like your describing the new 3 series? 

	Yes, does sound like the new '3' series. I'm looking at pictures
	of the production model from this month's CAR magazine. I had a
	close look at the 850 at Christmas and it's quite apparent it's a big
	powerfull BM !
	
	Gordon

    
    
    
    	Well I just went for a little stroll and just happened to pass the
    compound, its behind a fence with no access to the area except through
    the garage anyway, I couldn't see the back so no markings but its
    smaller then a '7' parked alongside, the nose is really low and pointed 
    very similar to the Z1 and the boot is like the new lotus elans with a 
    slot cut out of it along the back edge which creates a spoiler. There
    are posters up around here saying the 'Nue 3 er ' arrives shortly and
    shows a little of the car through what looks like a tear in the poster.
    One of these adverts that shows you a glimpse etc. I guess we will find
    out shortly.
    
    Garry
    

	A quick question, does the Z1 have 'normal' headlights, or pop-up
	ones. It's just that the photo's I'm looking at of the new '3', the
	bonnet, although more tapered than the old '3', doesn't look 'that'
	low and pointed. Mind you it's hard to judge from a photo.
	
	Other points, the bumpers are colour coded and headlights are
	rectangular on the new '3'.

	Gordon    

    I just read in one of the monthly car mags that BMW are introducing
    a 400bhp 6 Litre V12 8 Series !!!!! and there is a SWB 850i Convertible
    coming out soon.
    
    Grant

    
    
    	The z1 has pop up headlights and colour coded bumpers ( and the
    	back of the seats are also color coded !, in plastic )
    	
    	the thing i saw had normal headlights but recessed into a sloping
    	bonnet with the lights covered in glass, a bit like the Renault
    	gta v6. it also had colour coded bumpers and alloys that looked
    	like the ferrari alloys but with 5 spokes instead of 7. It was also
    	quite a bit bigger than the current '3' tho lower if you know what
    	I mean  !!

	Re. The Garry BMW...

	This is getting more confusing by the minute ! It doesn't sound
	like the new '3' at all, or at least the ones shown and described
	in CAR magazine. See if you can get hold of CAR and see what I mean
	Garry.

	Perhaps they've got hold of a prototype coupe '3' series or
	something.

	Re. 850i Cabrio

	They reckon this is still 2 years away, or do we have conflicting
	information yet again!

There is an article in the latest Classic and Sports Car on Alex von
Falkenhausen who was a designer for BMW for almost 40 years. The
article states that the 4 cylinder engine he designed in 1962 was used
in various forms until late 1988!

    re: .162

    This was the engine used in the 1502/1602/2002, and then in the 315
    316 and 318.

    Must be the one replaced by the new engine in 316i.

   Mark

   Perhaps my comments on similarity between the 02 series and 3-series
   wasn't so "silly" after all.

    
    Ok Mark,
    
    I'm quite happy to agree that the 3 series is nothing more than
    a facelifted 02 series! :^)
    
    Mark

    
    I was reading in the 'What Car' magazine that the 318i is capable
    of taking Unleaded and 2*.  Have any of you (318i owners) tried
    both types of fuel ?? comments please. Also, does this mean that 
    if by accident someone used 4* would it have serious consequences ?? 
                   
    Thanks
    Toze
    

    
    If you find a garage (especially in the Reading area) that sells 2* 
    please let me know! Everywhere seems to have a choice of ONLY 4*
    or the two varieties of green petrol.
    
    Elaine

    2* has officially gone from all major gas stations in UK, (as far as I
    know) My Beetle also is happier with 2* as it doesn't burn the valves
    out as quick as 4*
    
    Carl.

I thought that "Supergreen" petrol was a suitable replacement for 2*?
What do motorcyclists do, who used to use 2* and two-stroke oil in the tank?

Scott

	I think "Supergreen" is the equivalent to 4* unleaded, isn't it ?,
	sort of equivalent to 97 ish Octane. The Euro 95 is 3 * unleaded 
	normal/95 octane.

	Gordon
	

    
    I used to run the Landy on 2* or 3*, I can't use unleaded  petrol at
    all - it doesn't have hardened valve seats. I thought that supergreen 
    was just a high octane version of ordinary green  That doesn't help
    for the Landy, which doesn't need the octane, just the lead! 
    
    Elaine
    
    My bike is 4 stroke, and I use ordinary unleaded, I'm not sure what
    it's octane rating is.

    re .165
    
    I have a 318i and have used 2* (a long time ago), 4* and unleaded
    with no problems. It depends on the age of your car as to what fuel
    you can use. The model which could take all these different fuels
    as standard came out in about November 1987.
    
    Cheers....Alison

	2* died out one year ago when the '89 budget applied the same
	tax to all grades of leaded petrol. Since 2* was then the same
	pricxe as 4* it went, virtually overnight.

	-John

    
    Alison,
    
    Thanks for your note. I placed an order for a 318i a couple of
    weeks ago and your note (.165) confirms what I thought, but 
    obviously needed confirmation from someone who owns one.
    
    I have intention of using unleaded wherever possible but the fact
    that the 318i can also accept 4* is good news, as I normally drive
    through Europe each year and I dont need to be restricted to 
    certain service stations.
    
    I believe the 318i is the only BMW that accepts 2*,4* and unleaded.
    
    If anyone knows any different I would like to know !
    
    Regards,
    Toze
    
    PS: Looks like I have made my decision see .60
    
                                                        
    

Re: .172

>	2* died out one year ago when the '89 budget applied the same
>	tax to all grades of leaded petrol...

There used to be the same level of tax on all grades.  The 1989 budget
actually *increased* it on 2* (and 3*), to offset the lower price because
of lower refining costs.

jb

    I was at Road Atlanta this weekend for the IMSA races (Jaguar finished
    2nd behind the Nissan in the GTP race on Sunday, they set a new course
    record 1:10.035 for the 2.52 mile circuit and sat on pole).  Anyway, in
    the paddock we saw a new BMW 550i.  Is this a 'real' car or something
    somebody modified?
    
    Dave 

    
    Would any of you 'BMW owners' recommend the BMW car club ?
    
    Regards,
    Toze
    
    

RE .176:  BMW car club !?

In which country?  I know the BMW CCA in the USA is extremely worthwhile. 
The savings in parts alone pays for membership 5 times over...

                                             .steve.

    
    If you are talking about what is now the "old shape" 3-Series, then
    ever since the introduction of the 316i, all of the 3-Series range
    (with the exception of the M3) have been able to run on leaded/unleaded
    petrol.
    
    I drive a 320i and there is no noticable difference in performance
    whether the car is running on leaded or unleaded petrol.
    
    There is a point to be made about the "new shape" 3-Series range as
    some of the range (or is it all?) come fitted with catalytic convertors
    fitted as standard... which means leaded fuel is a no-no !!
    
    regards,
    
    Stephen

    
    Was looking at a new 520SE a few days ago. I noticed that the
    revs remain high/increase between gear change ( i.e. with the
    Clutch down and foot off the Petrol ).
    
    The sales-person was saying something about this being "multi-
    valve" behaviour on a new car. I already have a multi-valve car 
    and couldn't relate the two.
    
    Is this a BMW [ new car ] only "multi-valve" problem ?
    
      

    
    Re .179
    
    Sounds like one for the 'What the salesman said' note. My father's
    old Cavalier (multi valve - 8 to be exact!) did this for a while.
    It was cured at the next service! :^)
    
    Mark

    re-2
    
    The new 520i *IS* a multi-valve engine (24V).
    
    Grant

    
    So? 
    
    Mark

    
    The Salesman *IS* porking ! He has confirmed that the revs are
    "tamed" after the `first' service ( 12,000 miles ? ).
    
    "The first service *IS* free, isn't it ?", I enquired. >8-}
    
    This brings me onto the other BMW service `fiddle' -- well it
    could be a safety measure I guess -- and that is the "Service"
    light that comes on when the engine oil loses it's viscosity.
    
    Apparently you can change the oil yourself but the light can
    only be `switched off' using a special [ BMW service ] tool !
    
    Is this another porkie ?
    
    Cheers,
    
        Jagdeep.
    
    

    
>>    "The first service *IS* free, isn't it ?", I enquired. >8-}

	No. You pay for oils etc., which are expensive (not a trait
	unique to BMW)

>    This brings me onto the other BMW service `fiddle' -- well it
>    could be a safety measure I guess -- and that is the "Service"
>    light that comes on when the engine oil loses it's viscosity.

	The service light(s) which are dependant on more than oil 
	viscocity are designed to maximise BMW service revenue. Yes
	some special device is needed to reset them. They're a damn
	nuisance.

	Really BMWs are packaged for the company/lease car market even
	more than other marques. Very few private buyers venture that
	way (I did). What with the recession and the latest government
	anti-company car taxation, BMW are likely to be hit very hard
	and I certainly wouldn't buy one.

	Actually I did OK with mine, service isn't that expensive 
	compared to others, but that was in the days when they had very
	low depreciation. But those days have gone.

	-John
    

    The first service is the after the running in period and is free, this
    is at about 3000 miles.
    
    The services then alternates between Oil Service and Inspection Service.
    
    My Oil service at 7000 miles cost be 57 quid. The Inspection service I
    just had at 14000 miles cost me 212 quid.
    
    These costs are far cheaper than my previous car which was a Cavalier
    SRi, which always cost me around 200 quid for each service at about
    9000 miles intervals. There always had to change the brake pads cos
    they were always 80% worn and there would always be some gasget or
    something that was leaking. So far I have had no problems like these on
    my current 318is and after 14000 miles the brake pads are only 50%
    worn.
    
    Raj

    
    You mean the revs are sustained by the EMS during gear changes (this
    is also an annoying feature of some Nova models, apparently designed
    to help incompetent drivers apparently)?
    
    Bill.

    
    Since garages remove this feature at service time I can only assume
    it's a fault. My 16 valve Calibra doesn't do it and neither have the 
    16 valve Rovers or Toyotas I've driven.
    
    Mark

                     <<< Note 60.178 by TRUCKS::BEATON_S >>>
                       -< Re: 318i and unleaded petrol. >-

>    I drive a 320i 

How does that compare with say a Peugeat 205 on leaded/unleaded...

Nigel.

    My Peugeot 205 cannot be converted to unleaded, since you ask.
    
    Performance wise how do the two cars compare ?
    
    Well from a standing start and driving normally (or for that matter
    even in haste) my 1400 Peugeot will leave the 320i behind with ease.
    
    Top end though, the Beamer has it.
    
    

>>    My Peugeot 205 cannot be converted to unleaded, since you ask.
    
    Which model is it?  I understood the only 205's that can't run unleaded
    are the non-cat 1.9 GTi, and the old 1.0 litre engined 'Junior' (which
    is no longer sold).  I ran my previous 1400cc XS on unleaded with no
    problems for 2� years.
    
    Ian.

    1400 Pug leaving a 320i for dead?
    
    Was this a typo or is the 320i really that slow?
    
    
    Greg

    The model I have is a pre-December '86 205 GT, and according to the
    reference book that I looked at, pre-December '86 205 GT's engines
    cannot be converted to unleaded.
    
    Stephen.
    
    Ps. The car also has a derivative of the gearbox used in the Simca !!

    Unless you are willing to thrash the 320i (slip the clutch, etc.), then
    from a standing start the 205 GT (1400cc) will pull away from the 320i
    with very little effort from the driver of the 205.
    
    Mind you both cars were built to do the same things very differently !!
    
    Stephen.

    =:-o
    
    
    
    WOW - well you learn something every day

    
    What sort of front lights do BMW's use ? (the first person to say 
    'bright ones' gets dunked!) 
    
    BMW's seem to be identifiable from long distances in the dark as their 
    lights have a bluey tint not seen on any other car type - anybody else
    notice this or is it time to visit my opticians again ?
    
    -Tony

    
    Yes I have noticed this and it can be very handy especially for
    spotting Police motorway patrolls comming from behind.
    
     I think it has someting to to with the Elipsoidal type of light
    /reflector/lens arrangement.
    
    
    Tom.

     
    also used on Calibras & a variety of other metal these days ....
    

Perhaps it could be the "blue shift" of the light 'cos they drive so fast
;-)

mb

    re .197
    
    I rely on it to spot when the ol' bill is coming up from behind. The
    ellipsoid headlights are a dead give away. They look like a bright
    pair of beadey eyes. Trying to identify cars behind you when its dark can 
    be a bit of a game sometimes, especially if your doing a loing journey 
    and get bored.
    
    I find beemers are dead easy to spot, Range Rovers are quite
    distinctive too as they the usual have round headlights then two smaller
    side lights to the side and below. Volvos and Saabs I tend to confuse
    as they both have a main light on (usually largeish and square) plus a
    smaller side light too.
    
    /paul$light_spotter
    

    I've only driven a BMW for a very short distance, but have found that
    the coverage of light from the headlights is appalling!
    
    It is quite unnerving to be driving without a good view of the road
    ahead. For those thinking of asking, Yes, I didn't use side lights!
    
    Mark.

>    I've only driven a BMW for a very short distance, but have found that
>    the coverage of light from the headlights is appalling!
    
    Did you check the headlamp adjustment control.  On the old 3 series on
    the right hand side below the dash.

    re .199
    
>Perhaps it could be the "blue shift" of the light 'cos they drive so fast
    
    I'll go along with that. :-)

    
    
    Does anyone know if the New shape BMW 3 Series have the "side parking
    light facility" ? if so, how is it operated ? 
    
    Toze  
    

    
    Push the indicator down further? I seem to remember I found it by
    accident on mine :-)

    
    re; 60.205
    
    >>>> Push the indicator down further? I seem to remember I found it by
    >>>> accident on mine :-)
    
    You sound like the type of person who kick's a machine when it does'nt
    work.  You say "Push the indicator down further?" the indicator will
    only go as much as it has been designed for, force will not fix the
    problem. 
    
    as for what you say "I seem to remember I found it by accident on mine"  
    this implies strongly that you own a NEW 3 Series BMW (L Reg ?), and as 
    such, I am surprised that you (as a BMW driver) would find things by 
    accident. 
    
    The next thing you are going to say is that you own a 911 Carrera !
    
    
     

    
    RE-BMW M3
    
    	If you do own a new M3 all I can say is you lucky so-and-so.
    Just out of curiosity is it a yellow'un!
    
    Andy..Green with envy!
    

    Toze,
    
    I have a BMW 3 series and last night I checked, on your behalf,
    if this feature was available. And I can confirm that it is.
    
    Don't get onto the 911 subject agian - it just upsets me.
    
    Rupert

    
    Rupert,
    
    If it's any consoloation I prefer a 911 Carrera to a 944.
    
    Toze
    
    PS: Mine is not an M3, it's Green Metallic Color Coded like an M3.
    

    
    Perhaps you guys should go back to .23,.31 and perhaps .44 of this
    topic?
    
    I agree with everyone so far about a 944, but I think a 944 Turbo
    Cabrio is not your everyday run of the mill version. Esp with 100,000+
    kms on it now!

    
    Seemed to shut everyone up, didn't it!
    
    So what's the news on the BMW parking lights, or has the proverbial cat
    done its trick again?

>    So what's the news on the BMW parking lights, or has the proverbial cat
>    done its trick again?

On my old VW the parking lights were switched on by using the indicator
switch, with the ignition turned off.  The BMW is probably totally different.

Chris.

    No - it works exactly the same way.