Conference 7.286::digital

    Excuse me, but are you talking about the same company that wanted
    employees to pay $200 for antiquated DECmate 2 systems that were 
    otherwise going for scrap (i.e., were about to become an expsense 
    for Digital)?

    
    Are you willing to wait for a lead-time of 3 months?
    
    
    djm
    

    Ummmm... not meaning to throw water on your idea... but the majority of
    people that I know don't have access to PC's in the office.  It makes
    it kind of difficult to work on MS Word at home and not be able to do
    anything with it at work.  I think access to PC's in the office to get
    work done is a top priority.  As for home PC's... I'd settle for getting 
    the 0% interest loan with automatic withdrawal back again.  
    
    >> a minimal profit, substantially below street prices.
    
    Street prices are minimal profits.  I'd love Digital to subsidize 
    employees with PC paraphernalia... but it's hard to justify the cost
    at this time.  To be honest, I found Digital's EPP to be close to
    street price.  You can get less expensive PC's for sure, but you pay
    for the brand.  

    
    > at this time.  To be honest, I found Digital's EPP to be close to
    > street price.  
    
    Having just done the comparison, I didn't think that EPP came anywhere
    close - even with the 20% discount. My hypothetical "ideal"
    windowsNT-to-multimedia machine is about $3000 +\-$200 from several
    direct selling companies.  Sadly, The DEC offerings do not come close
    in price, performance or upgradeability:
    
    i486DX2@50Mhz                                66Mhz
    overdrive socket                             *
    8 meg exp to 64                              *
    5 free slots min                             *
    local bus                                    *
    win accelerator
    1 meg vram                                   *
    256 min ram cache, exapand to 1024           *
    200 meg hard drive (min)                     340!
    big floppy                                   CDROM reader
    small floppy                                 either
    ser port                                     *
    par port                                     *
    15" color monitor 600x800                    *
    DOS 6.0 and FIS                              *
    12 mos warranty                              *
    no service fee                               *
    toll-free 24 hr support                      *
    repair turnaround 2 days                     *
    
    I can get most of this (asterisks), PLUS an ISA CDROM and a drive for
    under $3000 from Gateway.  And they are not the cheapest or best
    performers.  The NEC Image range is a pretty good price/performance
    alternative for a `big name brand'.
    
    Maybe I didn't work through the labyrinth of configuration options
    and price list screens correctly, but I stopped considering DEC & EPP
    when the price reached about $4000 for less than half these options.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

    As many of you know, the Sales and Sales Support force was given Laptop
    320's beginning in April of 1992.  Many of us had already had PC's for
    years, since they are a basic tool for most computer-literate
    people (I had written "Americans").  I, for example, had been using a
    Macintosh since 1989 with Word and Excel, and before that, an Apple II.
    This is an unfortunate time from a financial point of view, but I think
    the basic suggestion is a sound one.
    
    Richard B

    Proposals like this come up often.  I don't know if I'm the first to
    mention it, but this time I will be:
    
    My ability (or desire) to pay for a computer out of my pocket shouldn't
    affect my ability to do my assigned work.
    
    If I need a PC for my job, I should have one.
    
    If I don't need a PC for my job, I shouldn't have one (at least one
    provided by Digital).
    
    (And an employee subsidy doesn't even take into account if the right
    people get the right business tools.)
    
    The _real_ problem is that we have "depreciation constipation", like
    VT200's, VAXstation 3100 mod 30's (and even older) and Tandy-build
    DECstation 2xx's.  These terminals and systems are carried on the books
    at unrealistically high valuations.
    
    As long as these systems "work" and are connected to character-cell
    timesharing systems, they _are_ the tool that will be used.
    
    When an employee says "I need a system", they'll usually get Digital's
    "best" from the mid-80's.
    
    From one perspective, I've got to agree with that strategy: a company
    that is losing money can't afford to purchase PC's or even subsidize
    PC's on the scale it would take to make a dent.

    Well....I and most of my colleagues have recently purchased DEC PCs for
    personal use under a French plan which allowed us to buy at slightly
    lower rates but with free service for two years and interest free
    financing-so it is pretty painless.
    I agree with the premise that we ought to improve our own
    marketability and value to customers by being PC literate but I think
    you get what you pay for.I can guarantee that if we gave away 10000 PCs
    to employees,10000 would be switched on the first day to see Windows
    work and within a week 9500 would have been powered on for the last
    time.
    So,my advice-buy your own and get the payback in flexible working(ie
    from home occasionally),mind expansion and improved marketability of
    yourself.
    
    Stuart

    Re .6:
    
    The ability of employees to do their jobs is not the only matter of
    concern to Digital.  If making PCs available to employees at some
    discount provides a good return on investment to Digital, then Digital
    should do it, even if the employees do not need the PCs to do their
    jobs.  Digital can reap benefits in increased employee productivity
    (even if an employee does not _need_ the PC for their job, it might
    help them do the job better), increased morale and goodwill, and
    increased employee knowledge (which makes them better sales people,
    better engineers, et cetera).
    
    If the total benefits of such a program are worth the costs, Digital
    should do it.
    
    
    				-- edp

The primary goal driving Digital's business decisions these days is PROFIT.

If profit can be identified and measured as a result of this proposal, then it
has a chance of being accepted and implemented.  If the measurements are
difficult to quantify (employee morale, increased productivity, goodwill, et.
al.) then the proposal may not be appropriate for today's Digital. Finally,
the profit level should  be acceptable.  Simply returning a profit may not be
sufficient.

Years ago, deciding on this proposal would have effectively been a no-brainer.
Today, it must be evaluated more closely to determine its impact on our short
term survivability.

After the corporation returns to profitability and stabilizes, I believe
proposals like .0 could be implemented.

Gerry

    ->As many of you know, the Sales and Sales Support force was given Laptop
    ->320's beginning in April of 1992.

Unfortunately, this MYTH is impossible to dispel. Sales & Sales Support were
given the opportunity to COMPETE for laptop 320's. The competition was who can
get mail to the registrar, and approval for travel, fastest after the limited
mandatory training sessions were announced. Failing that, you had a 2 week window
to "test-out", but again travel was required to pick up your system.

In our group of 13 Sales Support Specialists, less than half actually got through
the process. Of our 16 Sales Reps., about 80% have laptops, and about 50% use
them.

Sorry, but "Laptops in the Field" is sour grapes around here.

Andy Schickedanz
Sales Support
Albany, NY

    re: .4 Gateway alternative
    
    Err, the Gateway 4DX2-66V currently being sold for $2995 plus shipping
    DOES include a graphics accelerator card, and, not mentioned in .4,
    free application software.  However, other notesfiles have reported
    some problems bringing up Windows NT on this machine which may take
    some waiting to solve.  So Gateway can satisfy all of Colin Walters'
    needs (at least sometime in 1993) for considerably less than internal
    employee pricing.
    
    Now, before we go down some obvious ratholes, let me say that Gateway
    shipped 163,000 PCs in the first quarter of 1993 (Wall Street Journal,
    May 11) and is generally well regarded except for support problems
    caused by their rapid growth.  So, IMO, this is an apples-to-apples
    comparison with DEC.  And the question of "does the employee need it"
    doesn't even arise at companies like Apple or Hewlett-Packard.
    
    Unfortunately, proposals like the basenote which are not easily related
    to the bottom line will make little progress at the moment.  Instead,
    expect to see a continuation of the way people here are learning
    Windows NT: many people report they went out and bought a high-end PC,
    then bought the Microsoft beta CD-ROM, in order to effect their own
    career advancement.
    
    Wes

    
    > DOES include a graphics accelerator card, 
    
     See?  I'm out of touch in one week!
    
    > and, not mentioned in .4, free application software.
    
     FIS = factory installed software.
    
    > problems bringing up Windows NT on this machine
    
     Maybe because the current release of NT needs a different format CDROM
     on a SCSI rather than ISA bus?  Anyway, that's a known limitation to me
     that I'll accept for now.  Microsoft will probably issue NT on other
     formats.  Digital has it now?
    
    > Windows NT: many people report they went out and bought a high-end PC,
    > then bought the Microsoft beta CD-ROM, in order to effect their own
    > career advancement.
    
     And as another hedge against layoffs  ;-)
    
    Colin
    
    
    

Re: a couple of comments about who should purchase a PC.

A previous manager once noted how willing people are to spend money on
their avocations, but when it comes to investing in their vocation,
they look to their employer to pick up the tab. "You buy the book and
I'll read it." "You pay for the course and I'll take it."

I don't have a lot of spare change, and my job doesn't require that I
use anything more complicated than a VT-100, but I purchased my own
notebook 18 months ago, hardware, software and all. There's no
question that it has paid dividends in terms of more work done (at
home, at the park, etc.) and greatly improved quality of output using
Word, Excel, etc. I also do things that I can't do without the PC,
like manage projects using MS Project or use Organizer or Agenda to
manage data and information.

I think many benefits accrue to both Digital and us as individuals if
we belly up to the bar and invest a little in ourselves.

Pete

    RE: .13-
    
>A previous manager once noted how willing people are to spend money on
>their avocations, but when it comes to investing in their vocation,
>they look to their employer to pick up the tab. "You buy the book and
>I'll read it." "You pay for the course and I'll take it."
    
    The tools to do the job should be funded by the employer. Period.
    Needed books and training in our industry are no less important than
    trucks and ladders are to a roofer.
    
    Personally, I have a vocation to permit me to pursue avocations. I also
    choose to invest in a second phone line to support my vocation at my
    expense. Meanwhile I see my compensation continue to shrink as benefits
    are reduced, the car plan is trimmed etc. Thus, I cannot help but feel 
    that I am a victim of forced "virtual investment" in my vocation.
    
>							There's no
>question that it has paid dividends in terms of more work done (at
>home, at the park, etc.) and greatly improved quality of output using
>Word, Excel, etc. I also do things that I can't do without the PC,
>like manage projects using MS Project or use Organizer or Agenda to
>manage data and information.
    
    This reinforces my statement on "virtual investment". You're doing more
    work outside the 8-5 workday, developing skills and improving your
    productivity, no argument. However, this hints that many (myself
    included) are becoming obcessive-compulsive due to the stress of our
    work. How often can you take vacation time and avoid the urge to check
    your MAIL?
    
    Perhaps your manager is aware of your efforts and increased
    productivity. If you are recognized and rewarded, fine. If you simply 
    manage to stay employed is it worth it? The benefit to the individual
    can be measured in both personal satisfaction and potentially higher
    income. I wouldn't count on a break even equation for your money and 
    time investment given the current attitudes of the corporation. At
    least you retain the knowledge and own the equipment..
    
    Phil

    
    FWIW, following conversation took place at my night office :-
    
    
    Me   : I'm going to buy a new PC for the study
    
    Wife : Why?
    
    Me   : So I can work better, & get more done
    
    Wife : Why?
    
    Me   : Because I haven't got the tools I need at the office
    
    Wife : Why?
    
    Me   : 'cos the company has frozen spending
    
    Wife : How much will it cost?
    
    Me   : about $3k  (note -- we're talking the UK here - prices high)
    
    Wife : -- not easy to describe someone going beserk -- some words
           included "that money is to take me on holiday", & "will they expect
           you to buy your office desk next". Some other words were lost,
    	   due to my innocence ......
    
    
    Real Issue
    
    Common problem for many of us -- how to trade personal productivity &
    stress-alleviation in business environment against increased stress in
    family environment.......... not an easy one to win. Must say my pals
    that have left DEC & gone to Microsoft do not have the same
    business-environment support problems. Perhaps ours will go away when
    we're making Microsoft-type profits again :-) 
    
    Colin

    Colin,

    why not buy the PeeCee without telling your wife you did it?

    just tell here for example  "hi honey!  at work they gave me this 
    PeeCee to take home for being such a good DECeee" or something like
    that.

    this is only an innocent white lie and it wont hurt any one !

    if she asks where did the money go, tell her you put it as a lay away
    down payment to buy her a nice gift for xmass time, when xmass rolls 
    around there is a very good chance your wife has forgotten all about 
    this.

    i think the social problems and the stress DECeees are having today is
    that they tell their spouses every thing . you got to be prudent!

    \nasser
    i sure am happy i dont have this "to tell or not to tell the wife"
    problem.

    RE: .16 I think it's pretty obvious that *you* are not married. Wives
    *never* forget. :-)
    
    			Alfred

       I'm the proud owner of a DECpc333sxLP (a.k.a. "Tiger")
    that I purchased in November of '92. It's a great machine
    and I've demo'd it to a few friends and relatives who were
    quite impressed with it. note: some of these folks already
    owned various brands of PC's. It's my opinion that alot
    of Sales and Goodwill could be generated at the grassroots
    level (single unit purchases) if each/every DECie had a
    DECpc at home to casually demo to folks. note: Please don't
    demo any Company propriety software. I've already hardware
    upgraded my "Tiger" a couple of times at my own expense,
    and I've got to do at least one more major hardware upgrade.
    note: I'd like to upgrade the O/S from MS-DOS 5.0 to 6.0,
    but I'm patiently waiting for availability of the DEC flavor.
    
    						havin' fun,
    							Bob
    P.S.
    	The "Tiger" is light years ahead of
    	my olde' "VAXmate".
    

     re .13: Bravo!
    
    re. .14: You completely missed .13's point.
    
    Mark.

	re: .2
    
>>    Are you willing to wait for a lead-time of 3 months?
    
    
	YES!  in a word    

	RE:- edp

	Thank you, I agree.

	Because most of my Deccie friends/co-workers are buying outside
	of Digital, and paying less.  Doesn't that look great to our
	potential customers!!!.

	Also, I have worked at different companies.  Bose, was one.
	We had the 'luxury' of buying ONE set of speakers at cost.
	Most companies give some discount/benie.  I thought the 
	payroll deduction plan was great...except I missed it...8-(

	It sure wouldn't hurt to give us some kind of discount/payroll
	deduction program.

	Mikki

    I want to support the Albany guy. I never got any of the PC's that were
    given to all the sales reps...matter of fact I don't know anyone who
    did. Dec's choice more production takes more investment..otherwise I'll
    just watch TSN at night or do something radical like spend time with
    the family.
    Perhaps more opportunity to give is not the answer. Maybe we should
    develop ourselves futher outside of work. Loyalty from an employer is
    only skin deep.
    
    Steve

>    note: I'd like to upgrade the O/S from MS-DOS 5.0 to 6.0,
>    but I'm patiently waiting for availability of the DEC flavor.


	HUH???!!?!  DOS is DOS in this case.. Just head down to
	your favourite computer store and pick it up. The only
	thing DEC did for DOS or Windows is add a couple of 
	printer drivers or little things like that that you
	can get off the net anyways.

	Don't wait for DEC. They'll be way overpriced when they
	do come out with it.

						mike

	I also have the Tiger at home which I purchased myself (I have a 
	DECstation 350 in work).

	DEC employee price was cheaper than I could get it elsewhere, I think 
	it's excellent value for money, and it's much, much better than the 350.

	Maximum wait 2 weeks if I wanted it shipped to Digital building,
	...they ship every two weeks to Digital, less wait if shipped to home.

	I waited 10 days, I know someone who had it in 2.

	Microsoft office software, DEC employee price is cheap, it is 2-3 
	times more if you buy it discount from anywhere else.
	Unfortunately DECwrite for PC is 4 times more than microsoft office
	at employee purchase price!

	DOS V6 upgrade from employee purchase is the same price as street
 	prices.

	However, if you have these licensed products in work, and 80% of home 
	useage will be for work, you can have the software free useage for home.

	Heather, UK

    I think, perhaps, that a compromise between those of you who feel that,
    if Digital were in a position to do *anything* about better equipment
    for employees, they should offer home systems cheap and those who feel
    we should have good office systems might be for Digital to consider
    re-issuing the laptop program on a broader basis.  As a for instance,
    even though service sellers are sales reps, selling directly to
    customers and/or in teams, they were *not* part of the laptop program.  
    
    The ideal solution, in any case, might be docking station systems...use
    it at your desk with a full size monitor, etc., then take it home when
    you need to get some extra work in or whatever. 
    
    BTY, I bought the DECpc 420sx from the first rollout of the payroll
    deduction plan, have had it for nearly a year, love it to death, as
    does my whole family.  Of course, I bought it for a new job I had
    acquired which I fancied would allow me to get most of my production
    word processing/graphics done at home...WRONG!!  I do use it for the
    occasional high-profile proposal for large deals, but not, by and
    large, for the everyday stuff I had imagined.  Unfortunate but true,
    most of DEC's management still thinks that, if you aren't at a customer
    site, you'd (expletive deleted) better be at your desk in the office!
    
    It is practically unimaginable to me how much more productive I could
    be if I only had the right tools at my DEC cube.  Just now, due to a
    disability in my team, I am responsible for two jobs, and working many 
    hours of overtime, even with some loaner help...how handy that PC with
    Word, Freelance, 123, a good laser, time management and project management
    software, would be to me these days!
    
    M.

    There are many of us that want to invest in our own vocation with a PC,
    but would also like to invest in DEC by buying a Tiger II or III.