Conference vicki::boats

    I think it is a reasonable request to trial a boat before buying it.
    You'ld certainly test a $3500 car before you bought.  The price sounds
    very good for what you described.
    
    I would, arrange for visit with mechanic, bring tow vehicle, and $3500.
    If boat looks fine, ask for trial run. Explain you are prepared to take
    delivery that day. If he refuses trial run, wip out $2500, and explain
    that your comfort level is $1k less than his. Point to tow vehicle and
    lake. Ask again. If he refuses both, walk away.
    
    Where you don't have a lot of recent experience with boats you really
    should drive it first. By the same token, if you expect an owner to
    unwrap, and un-winterize a boat you owe him some level of serious
    consideration. DOesn't mean you are obliged to buy, but don't expect to
    knock money off for the wrong color, or options. You're decision to
    buy, or not buy should be based on mechanical defects and performance,
    after your acceptance of its cosmetic condition. 
    
    There are lots of boats out there, lots of people willing to sell. So
    unless you positively have to have this make, engine size, and color,
    don't worry about it. Come spring time trial runs are easier, and you
    don't have to worry about storing it or paying for it for at least 3
    more months.   

    Re: .-1, are personal checks used typically (I hope)? Do people bring
    cash? I'd feel a little concerned carrying around that much. 
    
    Thanks
    Bruce

    
      I wouldn't want a personal check that big.
    
    				Kenny

    generally for a deposit, cash or personal check is fine.
    
    if it were me i would insist on a bank check for the major balance.
    
    
    you certainly do not have to become the solver of his problems,
    
    if he won't allow you to try it, then forget the whole deal,
    
    avoid an offer until he agrees to what would be considered reasonable
    
    in an "clean" deal.  there are plenty of boats for sale,
    
    be patient.
    
    JIm

    You are in the drivers seat. You have the $$$, he wants the $$$.
    Look at the boat, make the offer contigent on sea trial and mechanic
    approval. If he says no...give him your phone number and when he
    does not find another cash buyer he will call. Remind him it is
    december and how hard it will be for him  to sell once there is
    ice on the lakes. Your only other option is to have him sign a
    contract to warrent the boats for a time period that allows you
    to use it in the spring.
    
    You can afford to wait, he can't.
    
    Bruce

    If this was my $3500, I might be of a different opinion but...
    I can't blame the person selling the boat for not wanting to
    de-winterize and re-winterize for somebody who may (or may not, the
    seller has no way of knowing) just be "tire kicking" (for lack of
    knowing what the boating equivilent is).  If I was in a rush to sell
    everything I owned I would set a very low price just to move it out
    without having to tie up a whole day to do it.  If it's a name brand,
    popular model boat with a tried and proven engine and drive, then, if
    the price was right, I would let my mechanic take a look at it and not
    require a test run.  A good mechanic (Rick Wilson type) can determine
    from looking at certain indicators if this boat has been abused or not
    without having to take it for a test run.  Even a test run isn't going
    to tell you if everything is in great shape on the boat.  I would use
    the opportunity to offer him a real low price ($2500 - $3000) and see
    if he bites.  
    Wayne

Another possible strategy would be to offer the owner $100 for a sea 
trial. If you buy the boat, the $100 goes toward the purchase price. If 
you don't buy the boat, the owner keeps the $100 to cover the hassle of 
rewinterizing. This would demonstrate that you are a serious buyer.

Alan

    At least out here in Seattle, here's how it commonly works:
    
    - you look at boat, get excited, make offer contingent on
    		1.  survey & mechanical inspection
    		2.  satisfactory sea trial
    
    - if seller likes offer, you pay a significant deposit (personal
      check)
    
    - you pay for haul-out, survey and dewinterizing (and, if necessary
      re-winterizing)
    
    - if survey is OK, then you sea trial
    
    - if all is OK, then you pay with certified check. If all is not OK,
      then you have a choice: renegotiate price/repairs, or back out of
      deal. If you back out, you're still responsible for haul-out,
      survey and winterizing/re-winterizing costs; but you get your
      deposit back.
    
    Naturally, you can try to negotiate otherwise on any of these points.
    But the above is pretty customary.
    
    Jeff

    
    i agree that this should apply to all cases.  however, the purchase
    
    price should be the guideline.  it can get kinda pricey for all of
    
    what you describe.  the amount of survey is at the buyers discretion.
    
    i like alan's suggestion.  sounds very fair to both parties.
    
    the other issue to address, is taking the boat and the owners
    
    word that all is ok, if they're moving you may not be able to 
    
    collect.
    
    si whats the risk, if you get a good deal, your risk is that 
    
    something will happen. if that cost exceeds the difference between
    
    what you paid and book value, then your into to it for more than
    
    you'd like to be.  so what has to go wrong for this tp happen.
    
    sounds like a lot.
    
    JIm
    
    

    Hmmm  -- Timing -- that's they key  -- It seems to me that the guy is
    motivated to move -- Selling a boat in the winter is tough - I believe
    that if they guy is motivated, he'll work with you -- I vote for .8
    strategy -- Failing that, if I had an emotional attachment to the boat
    or if it is a no-brainer, I'd try to make a decision with it just
    sitting there -- The 18 footer I bought a couple of years agao -- 18 ft
    Glastron -- I got for $500.00  -- It turned out that the enqinge had
    water in it -- Was a minor problem BUT by the time we had it isolated,
    the engine was down to the short block  - When I wuz that far, I
    decided for a complete re-build -- I could have put it back together
    and put it back into the boat -- Point is -- Tis a risk when U don't
    take her on a trial.
    
    Good Luck -- There's many fish in the sea .
    
    Regards,
    
    
    Dennis

    Well, here's what happened since "last time..."
    
    	I've changed jobs in Digital (my own choice), took time off during
    Christmas week, and dealt with "The Boat."
    
    	First, I want to thank everyone who responded to this note and
    others that I posted. Your responses were extremely valuable. I'm
    sorry about the delay in posting this follow-up and thanks, but my
    change of jobs and the holidays kept me quite busy. Things are settling
    down now.
    
    Next Installment of "Boat Story:"
    
    	Well, that Saturday my mechanic (an excellent reference through
    a noter in this conference) and my wife and 2 sons went to see the
    "boat". It was in excellent shape. Engine was fine - good even
    compression across all cylinders. Battery needed to be charged,
    bilge pump wasn't working (power), but nothing that couldn't be
    handled in a pre-season tuneup.
    
    	We agreed on a price. The seller had a boat loan that needed to
    be payed-off, and I agreed to do this, however the bank required
    14 *DAYS* after receipt of payment to send the title to me. Of course,
    then the seller would have to sign the title over to me after I
    received the title.
    
    	Things were all setup. I sent the payoff to the bank. That night,
    I gave the seller a copy of the bankcheck I had sent to his bank that
    day. I was to take possession of the boat & accessories that night.
    
    	When we arrived at the seller's house that night, we noticed that
    2 rooms of furniture were *gone* from the house (in just 2.5 days -
    Saturday noon to Monday night). We knew the seller was selling some
    other items besides the boat, but not to this extent. The red flag
    "bankruptcy" glowed nuclear in our minds.
    
    	After our arrival, the seller was quite belligerent toward us. He
    reneged on his offer to tow the boat to our house (since I hadn't had
    time to get a hitch put on the minivan). Also, the seller said that
    the "dead" battery was no longer included with the boat, that he had
    sold the battery with his son's Skidoo.
    
    	We proposed some alternatives to deal with these issues, but the
    seller wouldn't budge or help.
    
    	We left his house without the boat. I intercepted the check I had
    mailed to his bank and had it returned to me.
    
    	After his rude treatment that night and the missing rooms of
    furniture in his house, we did not trust this guy to be around in 14
    more days to sign the title over to us. I told the guy to first get
    a free and clear title, and then to call us back. I told him
    I would pickup the signed-over title and the boat & accessories in
    one future trip, at which time I would give him a bankcheck for the
    agreed-upon amount.
    
    	The seller said that this was unacceptable. I politely told him
    that this was the only way we would deal with him, given how he treated
    us. I told him he could keep his boat, even at his great price. Nothing
    (to us) was worth the risk of hanging on for 14 days waiting for the
    title and then relying on the seller to sign the title over to us.
    
    	So, we don't have the boat, but is was a beauty - more boat than we
    could typically afford - but at too high an indirect cost.
    
    	As many noters have told us, there are plenty of boats out there.
    
    	We are not discouraged by the experience. The upside of this is
    that we now know the questions to ask, how to get BUC book values,
    have a mechanic to inspect (and in the future, to work on) the boat.
    We've learned a lot, thanks to you folks.
    
    	I'll keep you posted on our progress when our boat activity
    restarts. It's time to ski for awhile...
    
    Take care,
    Bruce
    
    P.S.	There's a lot more gory detail I could share about how
    		this thing fell apart, but the key points are all above.
    		One thing I didn't make clear above was that we had
    		agreed to payoff the loan (half of the agreed-on price)
    		and take possesion of the boat/trailer/accessories after
    		bank had received our bakcheck. The seller then would have
    		received the second half of the payment after he had signed
    		the title over to us.

    
    Gee Bruce,
    
    	The red flag went up for me way before your story brought
    you to the seller's house. I personally, would never, ever mail
    a bankcheck to payoff someone else's loan. If I were to purchase
    something that still had a bank lien on it, where the seller could
    not or would not procure the clear title on his own, I'd accompany
    the seller to the bank and exchange the $$$ for the clear title.
    
    	I've done this with cars before and the bank generally is quite
    amenable to having all the documents ready when you and the seller
    arrive if prior notice was given.
    
    Rick
    
    PS If that bankcheck is burning a hole in your pocket, send it to:
    
    		First NH
    		PO Box 130
    		Laconia, NH
    
    	Just tell 'em it's for the SUTER loan...... :-)
    

    Well Bruce, I am glad you caught it in time. Sounds to me as if you
    DID have a take the money and run situation developing from him.
    If someone treats you poorly in a situation like that chances are they
    will CONTINUE to treat you poorly.... including taking your money
    and leaving you with nothing.  It would have been TOUGH to have gotten
    that money back. Live and learn.
    
    I hope your find another boat at a good price. That old axiom seems to
    have held.. 'if it seems too good to be true, it probably IS too good
    to be true.'
    
    Jeff

    Rick,
    	Going to the bank together is a great idea, but in this situation
    the bank was in New York and buyer & seller are in Massachusetts.
    
    	It would've been simpler if the seller paid off his loan and had
    the title. But alas, seller is not sensible. Lots learned here, no
    harm done except dashed emotions.
    
    Take care,
    Bruce

RE.14
Maybe I shouldn't just jump in here, but, here goes
How does the seller pay off the loan if he can't
afford the boat and is having apparent money
problems?  Just asking.

Kevin

    Just my $.02 worth. You might contact the bank and tell them the price
    you are willing to give them for the boat if they reposess. Sounds like 
    he may be days away from this happening. The bank may be more than
    willing to immediatly turn the boat over to someone that PAYS for it
    instead of trying to sell it at action. after storing it and
    transporting it somewhere.

    	I like it!  Offer the bank a nice -small- profit above what he owes
    and they just might go for it...
    					B.C.