Conference terri::cars_uk

    Fully agree with you John. Too much is no better than too little.
    I still maintain that rear fog lights are only useful during the
    day.

    
    Dazzling lights are WORSE than no lights. It becomes impossible
    to see the line of the road or cyclists or poorly lit vehicles (or
    parked ones!) when you have lights which are too bright coming towards
    you. This is especially bad when the road is mucky (salted or damp
    after a storm) and your windscreen gets covered in muck, which you
    can't clean off.
    
    There are laws about it, but like so many others they never get
    enforced!
    
    Mark
    

    There is a definition of how much diminution of visibility the rear
    fogs should be used in - I think it is 100 yards (or maybe 100 of
    these new fangled foreign things). I judge whether I can see the
    traffic in front without the high intensity lamps. If I can't, I
    switch them on. When I can again, I switch them off.
    
    Some of the dash warning lamps are invisible from the drivers seat,
    and I suspect that some lamps legitimately switched on just get
    forgotten.
    
    Steve
    

    Another reason for lights getting left on...
    
    In some cars the fog ligh indicator lights are very bright (so you
    can't ignore them), but this is a problem as they are distractingly
    bright.  In two cars that I have bought the bulb was removed to stop
    it glaring in the corner of the previous owners eyes...  so at night you
    had to look at the switch with a light, or feel it.
    
    I wish manufacturers would put in sensible indication lights in these
    situations so that people didn't need to remove the bulbs to stop them
    being distracted.
    
    PS The two cars were both minis.
    
    Rob
                                                    

    
    On the Maestros, the fog light switch is 're-set' when the ignition
    is switched off, so there is no problem with fog lights being left on
    from the previous trip. I think this is a good idea.

     a few back was a typical paranoid response, but tempered by the
    sequel which was an accurate summary of what to do with rear fog
    lights...... switch them on when they are needed and off when they
    are not. They are needed (according to Govt literature) in heavy
    rain and fog. This must be one of the few times that HMG has got
    it right. A bigger danger is poorly adjusted headlights and an even
    bigger danger to all road users is the idiot that's driving too
    fast for the conditions prevailing.

	Re. .8
	
	I would echo the sentiment that poorly adjusted headlights are a
	nuisance and can be very dangerous. It's quite alarming the number
	of cars with one headlamp that is badly ouy of alignment or doesn't
	work at all. A car with the offside headlamp 'gone' can be
	extremely hazardous at night and in poor visiblity is almost an
	accident waiting to happen.

	Over here you HAVE to carry spare bulbs, ( and fuses, and a warning
	triangle ) by law. Is this the case in the U.K. yet ?, I doubt it, but
	it would be good idea.

	Gordon 

    I believe it isn't actually law in England to carry spare bulbs, but it
    is illegal immediately when any of the lights stop working. If you get 
    caught you will be in trouble NO MATTER WHAT YOUR REASON is - so in other 
    words it is really best to carry spare bulbs in case a bulb goes during a 
    journey.
    
    Ruth.

    I still agree with the foglight argument...they're nothing but a pain
    in the neck, and besides, very very very few drivers have any idea
    whatsoever how to use them PROPERLY! Driving on Britain's motorways is
    nothing short of downright dangerous nowdays...
    
    Let's try and restrict the number of lights these pillocks fit to their
    car!
    
    Mark

    
   > Before you say i'm going too fast please note that i'm slowing down
   > for oncoming traffic and moving over. 3 times I've had wing mirrors

    What? Into double figures you mean? :^)
    
    Mark
    

    
    With ref to driving well away from the hedge, this is a good idea, IF
    you are aware of the traffic around you, and move over when necessary.
    There are some huge potholes, and chunks of collapsed road, which won't
    do the suspension any good at all! 

    
    Is warp factor X such a sensible speed to be doing on these roads??
    
    What about the Rabbits and the frogs you'll be frightening??
    
    :-)
    
    Mark

Re: .14

.....including bicycles, horses, pedestrians, etc that insist on using the
bit of road nearest the hedge :-)


it's less hazardous to ones heart to leave a gap !

you mean you don't give way to snails ????????????


where's the RSPCA ? 

:-)

	The very real and serious problems snails face on our
	roads today are so often ignored.

	All the general public ever want to do is sink back into
	their shells and make jokes on the subject, ignoring the
	fact that no snail has made it from one side of the M4 to
	the other since 1972, when it was opened to traffic.

	-John

Re .19

this is rumoured to no longer be true as one enterprising snail ascended the
ramp onto the M25 and went with the flow of traffic for a day or so thereafter
descending safely on the other side.

    
    Re .21 Snails and foglights.
    
    Only those born after 1984!
    
    Mark

	don't know about crossing the M4, but most of 'em, seem to end
	up in the centre lane of the M25, thereby causing Terry and Sharon
	to stay below 15 mph in order to avoid them.

	Pah, squash 'em all ( especially CLOCs )

	Dave

    
    Seen on A303 this morning,
    
    Weather: dry as a bone,
    visibility: The sun was out!
    
    Some plonker in a Corrado was going along with main beam, fog front,
    and fog rear, all blazing into the sunrise.
    
    Perhaps it was an avenging snail in disguise......
    

    Back to the hedges and gutter problem, I've found that if you 'stand
    your ground' from early on before actually meeting the other car and
    use all your side of the road and show no signs of pulling in, the other 
    car pulls in to their side of the road.  This is a tip I picked up from the
    defensive driving course and it seems to work quite well.  Even the
    snails are impressed......  

	Narrow country lanes are essentially the places where the
	non-yuppy bashed up old wreck brigade get their revenge.

	In a battle of will over ownership of the wider line it's
	inevitably the vulnerability level that counts most (or
	lack of it).

	Trucks and landrovers are tops followed by Mk1 Granadas etc.
	Derek Mitchell's Maestro seems to be pretty well up too.

	I know this is true a snail told me, he also said that it's
	a little known fact that a snail still holds the record for the
	rush hour circum-navigation of the M25.

	-John

    RE : Snails.
    
    I read somewhere that any snail caught with a light out WILL be
    in trouble. Hence the crunching sound when running over one - 
    the breaking of the glass from the spare bulbs ! ;-)
             
    

   and own the WHOLE road!

    At least snails have some form of protection.  It's the slugs I feel
    sorry for!!!
    
    Steven

    Does this mean that a slug tastes the same as a snail?

    Are there giudlines when headlamps should be switched on/off. I don't
    mean when it is foggy or heavily raining but more in the morning. I
    quite often see cars with their lights on when I think them to be
    unneccessary, I have also been flashed by these people because mine
    aren't on. They can't be warning me that because my lights aren't that
    I'm not easily seen - they saw me to flash me.
    
    I usually go by the street lights, if there're on then so are my
    lights, if there're not on then I switch off.
    
    Tony

The guy who runs the High Performance Course that Bill Betts et al endorse 
wrote a few pieces in Motor a couple of years ago and his philosophy is to 
be the first to turn his lights on.  This seems pretty sensible to me.

Mike.

    Re: .34:  Street lights aren't much of a guide, since they're usually
    on timers.  Really, you develop an instinct for when lights should be
    on.  This time of year around 8-9 in the morning, light levels are
    usually below the threshold when I "know" my lights should be on.  I
    have dipped main beams where traffic is far enough apart to maintain
    a useful speed, though usually I only have my dim-dips on during the
    first 20-30 minutes crawling through Newbury's traffic jams.
    
    My rule of thumb is this: if I see someone indicate, and the light
    level is such that the flashing light draws my attention to it, rather than
    me just being aware of it, then lights should be on.
    
    Another way to be sure is if you notice cars with lights on more easily
    than those without.
    
    Jeff.

    Tony,
    
    Lighting up times are issued for each day by the DoT, and published
    in the papers. However, the Highway Code says something like, "Lights
    should be used when visibility is reduced". I use lights of some
    kindwhenever there is less than good daylight visibility - usually
    sidelights, unless it is really gloomy.
    
    I don't mind those who use lights when I don't, but I do get upset
    at those who insist on lights out in fog, heavy rain and dark mornings
    and evenings, and then flash angrily when they are not seen.
    
    Steve

    
    Re .38 and previous
    
    The answer is that you can't put your lights on too early (we're
    talking about headlights here, sidelights are strictly for parking
    in my book). If it's light and you have them on then you are unlikely
    to cause anybody else any inconvnience (unless they're badly adjusted
    , but that's another matter) and if it's gloomy, raining, dark,
    foggy, etc they can only improve your chances of being seen and
    reduce the chance of you being involved in an accident.
    
    Mark

	I once tried snails in a swiss restaurant. They tasted, as
	most who've tried them will agree, like garlic coated car
	tyres.

	Often wondered where they picked up the flavour.

	-John

    
    If, as you're driving along, you wonder whether you ought put
    your lights on, then do. Aim to be the first to put them on
    in conditions of poor visibility, and the last (within reason)
    to turn them off - after all, you're using the lights to help
    other people see you; if they have their lights on it may be an
    indication that they couldn't see unlit cars that easily...
                                                      
    Bi||

    
    	The Irish equivalent of British Telecom, Telecom Eireann has
    introduced a policy wherby their vehicles used dipped headlights
    at all times (during the winter months anyway). Apparently, this
    is based on reduced accident rate figures from mainland Europe.
    
    Marty.

	Well it looks like most people are in agreement here. As an ex-biker,
	dipped headlights or "driving lights" on at all times, dipped headlights
	on all vehicles are good idea in many conditions. After motoring 
	experiences over the past 10 years anything that helps you "be seen"
	by other road users has to be a good idea.

	The trend over here is to have dipped headlights on at ALL times, bar
	a bright sunny day, except Police Porsches who tend have them on 
	whatever the weather !

	Gordon

    They are mandatory in Sweden. Surveys there and in time limited tests
    in other countries have shown that, indeed, they do help. Not so much
    the other drivers, but definitely the pedestrians, bikers and
    motorbikers.
    
    Already about 15 years ago, I started to use the headlights during the
    day if the weather was "grey" or if for instance I had the sun going
    down right in my back.
    
    Kind people always tried to warn me that my batteries would run empty
    :-). It's getting worse in France. They think that I try to warn them
    from a radar trap '^). Goal reached: I definitely was seen from far
    away.
    
    Approvingly yours,
    
    Chris

    
    I have to disagree with lights on at all times, I find that in many
    circumstances, I cannot judge the speed of a car so well with lights on
    rather than off, because of the dazzle.
    
    At night I also find many dipped beams to be much too bright for me, and
    I have occasionally flashed people even though they have correctly
    adjusted lamps. They destroy your ability to see
    by your own headlamps so badly that it is positively dangerous. 
      
    I also read in a M****C**** magazine of a study that came to the
    conclusion that day-lights for bikes were not safer. Sorry can't
    remember its name.
    
    Chris 
    
    
    

>>They are mandatory in Sweden.  

Not sure that's totally true, although they do have "day running lights" on most
cars, as I saw many cars without lights during my hols there last July.  Norway
has big signs at the border saying dipped headlights are compulsory at all times
Perhaps a Swedish reader can give the definitive answer?

One disadvantage I noticed in Sweden though was that on hot days when the roads
started shimmering, you could not tell how far away the oncoming traffic was nor
guesstimate it's speed too well as the lights shone brightly through the shimmer
and gave a totally unrealistic illusion of their speed/distance.  If in doubt,
hold back, was the order of the day!

Interesting how different authorities define "night" though, and thus the need
for lights (other than road users) - maritime is sunset to sunrise - when the
lighthouses are switched on - and the CAA define it as half an hour AFTER sunset
to half an hour BEFORE sunrise, or something about the sun being 12.5 degrees 
below the azzimuth ... or somesuch.

Brian

PS Anyone remember that great Jasper Carrot session about "You can't turn the
lights off on a Volvo"?  Hilarious!

    Re: .45
    
    > I have to disagree with lights on at all times,
    >		... because of the dazzle.
    
    But surely, if lights dazzle you, it must by definition be dim enough
    for lights to be required?
    
    > At night I also find many dipped beams to be much too bright for me, and
    > I have occasionally flashed people even though they have correctly
    > adjusted lamps. They destroy your ability to see
    > by your own headlamps so badly that it is positively dangerous. 
    
    I agree that lights tend to be a lot brighter these days.  But that's an
    issue to take up with the manufacturer, not the poor driver.  Are you
    suggesting he shouldn't use them? :-)
    
    Jeff.

    I know this may seem a negative reason for having your lights on but...
    
    ...if you are involved in an accident and if you have to give a
    statement then it is, of course, quite beneficial to say that you had
    been using your lights ( if relevant ).
    
    Steven

Re: a few back

It is actually required by law that you use dipped headlights in conditions
of poor visibility.

Headlights must also be used between sunset and sunrise.

jb

Re...

At night I also find many dipped beams to be much too bright for me, and
    I have occasionally flashed people even though they have correctly
    adjusted lamps. They destroy your ability to see
    by your own headlamps so badly that it is positively dangerous. 
      

Are so your the 'gentleman' that thinks to himself...

	Gosh your lights are a bit bright but are dipped. I'll flah my lights
	at you anyway just to let you know they slightly dazzled me.

Thus ensureing that the poor devil you flashed can't see S*D ALL. This then has
the effect of making him slow down rapidly, or even driving straight into you
if it's on a bend.

I drive a Landrover and the lights are a bit high because I am on a raised
chassis.  I was driving into a faily sharp left hand bend. The car in the other
direction decided that my lights were too bright and flashed me. Extra to the
normal full beam he had four extra spotlights. I could not see anything.

If I had not virtually stopped I would have either gone into the ditch and
bushes on my side of the road, or straight into the oncomeing lane. It then
took three or four minutes for my night vision to return.

If I forget to dip my headlights (and two extra spots that point to the ground)
then flah me and I will dip them. But beware flah me with more candle power 
Blackpool and I may just stick my RSJ of a bumper into the side of you nice
shiny car.

Not being directed to anyone in particular, but just remeber what you are
flashing, and for how long. a very quick flash will get the message across,
where as a prolonged flash will 'blind' ALL oncomeing traffic.

Simon.

    
    Actually I flashed them because I thought they were on main beam.
    I only assumed afterwards that they were on dip as they ignored my
    warning. 
    
    Chris
               

Now that is a common mistake that we all make.

Simon

re .47 

�    Re: .45
�    
�    > I have to disagree with lights on at all times,
�    >		... because of the dazzle.
�    
�    But surely, if lights dazzle you, it must by definition be dim enough
�    for lights to be required?
    

   No! The bright point source of light does the dazzling - just like
   looking at the sun in broad daylight!

It is of course illegal to use any light in any way that dazzles another
driver.

jb

    One of the driving tips I learnt during Rallying was not to look at the
    opposing cars lights. Even if they're dipped, they will still cause you
    to lose your night vision (especially if they flash you!).
    
    The trick is to use the illumination of their lights to look at the
    road on your side, until your lights take over and you then pass the
    other vehicle.
    
    The temptation is that dipped lights that are poorly adjusted make you
    stare at them until you can decide whether they are badly adjusted or
    main beam so you can flash. By that time your eyes are really drawn to
    the beams and you flash angrily. The whole thing is a terrible
    escalation spiral.
    
    JfK
    
    p.s. Another trick is to close one eye (assuming good vision in both),
    and to "swap" eyes at the moment of transition from light to dark or
    vice versa. This also works for entering tunnels. Something to do with
    speed of adjustment from dormant being better than that from extremes?

    
    
    
    	Re a few back 
    
    	It is the law taht all vehicles must have driving lights on when
    driving in Sweden. If they dont and they are swedish they will get
    done, if a foriegner you may get away with a reminder.
    
    	Having spent 2� years living in Stockholm I can vouch for the
    effectiveness of lights even in summer, you can see cars approaching
    from MILES away. It did get a little tiresome though when i went home
    for the weekend etc and EVERYBODY flashes at you to warn you your
    lights are still on.
    
    	Garry
     
    

Re. Flashing vs Dazzling

	Why not "flash" your lights OFF at night ?  A quick flick of the 
switch will blink the lights down and back up again, too quickly to lose 
sight of anything, but certainly enough to get attention.
	I started doing this after I figured out that the one thing I 
HATE is having somebody "thank" me, for letting him go first, by 
blinding me !

Ian

    re.55
    
    >>Shut one eye when a cars lights come into view/dazzle you.
    
    Sweet Memories!, They tought us this in the Army cadet corps ages ago,
    for night training. Apparently it can take upto 5 minutes to regain full
    night vision, if dazzled by a light, The difference is quite alot during
    those 5 mins.
    Carl.
    

    Re: .57
    
    I totally agree, i often flash from main to dim-dip and back to
    be polite at night.
    
    It is often more easily seen as well, sometimes a dip in the road
    can make oncoming cars "look" like they have flashed, when they
    haven't.
    
    mb

I also dip from main to side lights at night, however I started doing it
to let people know:

1) You've got your side lights on, and you should really have your headlights on

2) Your lights are faulty (one on side lights, the other on dipped etc)

It's more polite than dazzling them, and you don't get flashed back either!

    I am pretty sure that I suffer from slight "night blindness". The
    symptom is that other cars lights seem to always dazzel you, causing
    some loss of vision. I am also sure that his has got worse since
    working on computers more.
    Reading some of the previous replies I dont think I am alone. On
    the radio they suggested this condition may effect upto 40% of drivers.
    
    Rich
    (Now-where-is-the-side-of-the-road-now-that-theyve-dug-up-the-cats-
     -eyes)
    

    >    (Now-where-is-the-side-of-the-road-now-that-theyve-dug-up-the-cats-
    >     -eyes)

    Think yourself lucky that there once were cats-eyes... here in
    Massachusetts, home of the infamous Boston driver, roads are usually
    poorly lit and in the 20,000 miles I've driven since I've been
    here I've probably seen fewer than a few dozen cats-eyes.
    This can be dangerous on wet, dark days when you're being dazzled
    by a Massachusetts driver who's making a three-point turn on a
    major highway and you're trying in a split second to work out what 
    the h*** he's doing and which way the road goes!!
                                                     
    Regarding night vision and computer terminals, the optician I saw
    a month or two back told me that I was suffering a "typical" VDT
    user's ailment - focussing on differently-distanced objects was
    taking my eyes longer because of the time I spent at my screen.
    I guess the VDT-induced night-blindness might be related to this
    in some way?
                                        
    John
    John
     

    re :.47
    
    Don't forget that many people 'upgrade' their bulbs for better
    night vision ignoring the effect on other people.
    
    I have seen an advert to upgrade from 220W spotlight bulbs to ...
    440W bulbs!!!!!
    
    Normal lights can also be 'upgraded'. 

On the subject of too many lights, from 1991 cars in Britain may have at most
TWO front fog lights.  This should stop people testing the strength of their
front bumper by loading it with lights.

I agree that headlights are becoming too bright these days.  Our eyes adjust
very well to driving in the dark with "sensible lights", and this is messed up
by the excessive brightness of approaching lights.  More street lights and cats
eyes are a better solution than brighter headlamps.  (I didn't realise how
useful cats eyes were until I drove down a bendy, pitch black road that had
none!)

Even if headlamps are "correctly" adjusted (quotes 'cos very few are
non-dazzling these days), the slightest bump in the road causes them to flash
glaringly at oncoming traffic, and when meeting a car coming over the brow of a
hill...

Unfortunatley, the only way to get round the problem is to fit brighter lights,
so that having been dazzled you are not so dependent on your night vision.

And so the situation gets worse...!

Scott.  %-(