Conference rdvax::grateful

re:                      <<< Note 97.1498 by SCOONR::GLADU >>>

>     We would also have to agree upon conventions for titling to make
>     searches, etc easier.
    
	There's not only the issue of titles but more so what are the 
	searches we'd like ?  That will have a big impact on the logical 
	design/tables structures and so on, as they'll probably change
	to accomodate the stuff we'd want out of it.

	Access requirements for example:

	. give me the set list for 3/28/73 (which I listened to last night,
	  what a great Dark Star!).  This is an obvious one.

	. list the dates/venues for Boston shows ?

	Do we want to get into "how many times did the band open with iko ?"

	This will be no ordinary database!  

	How well do all of you know SQL to access it ?  ;-)  

	And a while back I forgot a big gap: '74 and prior.

	Ken

I think it the setlists can be found without having to steal Deadbase's info.

I doubt they'd have any issues with us using Deadbase to confirm or check our 
own lists.

Lets try. Meanwhile, Mike R, could you check and see if John would have a 
problem with this?  remember, this is gonna be a vms internal use only hack..

Best thing is always to ask first, yes?

re 97.1499 FURTHR::HANNAN "Beyond description..."               

>	How well do all of you know SQL to access it ?  ;-)  

There's some software that I just read about yesterday, a graphical frontend
to Rdb databases, called GDB (Grateful DataBase? ;^) ... lemme post a 
pointer ... don't know if it'll be useful or not.

- Dave

            <<< NECSC::SYS_CLUSTER:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GRATEFUL.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< Take my advice, you'd be better off DEAD >-
================================================================================
Note 97.1489                    Ask the Universe                    1489 of 1500
ESGWST::MIRASSOU "So... what DOES it all mean?"       9 lines  19-DEC-1991 15:30
                    -< Anybody got that old mega-setlist? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Oh thou knowledgable people who assist Mr. Universe.
    
    In a previous incarnation of this notes file, before the word of
    DEADBASE was so widely spread, the writings of an oracle knowing what
    songs were played at what shows since the dawn of time was posted.
    Is this knowledge still represented somewhere as an electromagnetic
    phenomena, or has this, too, passed on to the mists of the ancients?
    
    John
================================================================================
Note 97.1490                    Ask the Universe                    1490 of 1500
FURTHR::HANNAN "Beyond description..."                 1 line  19-DEC-1991 16:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re -1	It's on the way...
================================================================================
Note 97.1491                    Ask the Universe                    1491 of 1500
ESGWST::MIRASSOU "So... what DOES it all mean?"       5 lines  19-DEC-1991 17:31
                                  -< Thanks! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thanks Ken!
    
    Anyone else interested, I'll keep in
    ESGWST::USER$1:[MIRASSOU]DEADSETS.TXT for awhile.  It's got setlists
    from 1975-1984.
================================================================================
Note 97.1492                    Ask the Universe                    1492 of 1500
BCSE::ABBOT                                          13 lines  19-DEC-1991 17:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Speaking of electronic setlists, there's an ad in the latest Relix for
    a PC-based database, covers I think 1975 to 1990, and they're working
    at adding the earlier years.  Looks like a pretty good package.  Don't
    want to say much more since this isn't an advertisement.
    
    As for 1991, I've been keeping the on-line list and will do my annual
    posting sometime after the new year (hopefully from a new account).
    
    BTW, can anyone point me to a listing of dates for the Bob/Rob and
    Planet Drum shows?
    
    Scott
    
================================================================================
Note 97.1493                    Ask the Universe                    1493 of 1500
BCSE::ABBOT                                           5 lines  19-DEC-1991 17:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BTW, there's a topic in here for yearly set lists, it's got 89 and 90
    so far.
    
    Scott
    
================================================================================
Note 97.1494                    Ask the Universe                    1494 of 1500
SCOONR::GLADU                                         7 lines  20-DEC-1991 09:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rea Simpson is the one who made up the 75-84 list. I wonder if
    she's kept it up to date?
    
    Actually, is there anyone in here willing to download sets - say 1 year
    per person, into a relational database? I'd be willing to set up the
    database (perhaps KenH would help). We discussed this before. All we
    would need is a place to store it.
================================================================================
Note 97.1495                    Ask the Universe                    1495 of 1500
ESKIMO::DWEST "Dont Overlook Something Extraordinary" 9 lines  20-DEC-1991 09:46
     -< sorry Ger!  couldn't resist!  :^)  i'd be innersted in a 84-pres >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    re:  keeping the 75-84 list up to date...
    
    	should be pretty easy to do...  i doubt that any of this
    information for 75-84 would have changed much....
    
    				:^) :^) :^)
    
    					da ve
================================================================================
Note 97.1496                    Ask the Universe                    1496 of 1500
FURTHR::HANNAN "Beyond description..."               12 lines  20-DEC-1991 09:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Sure, I'd be willing to do something with an on line setlist
	database...  We'll have to start with the logical design and
	requirements for access, and take it from there.  I've thought
	about it a bit and there's a lot of possibilities (it's dizzying,
	the possibilities ;-)  Space requirements wouldn't be bad at all,
	not much data really...

	I have 75-84 online, and '88 to the current more or less. 
	
	Anyone have 85-87 ?

	Ken
================================================================================
Note 97.1497                    Ask the Universe                    1497 of 1500
SPICE::PECKAR "Shadow skiing the apocalypse"         10 lines  20-DEC-1991 10:13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd be more than happy to store it.

Actually, I've been thinking about this for a while. Simply compiling the 75-85
lists with the data we already have spread out across the net for 85-91 would
be enough of an accomplishment... 

Also, I'd like to see an effort to compile all the lyrics files around, too.

2_GB_in_da_Wings_P
================================================================================
Note 97.1498                    Ask the Universe                    1498 of 1500
SCOONR::GLADU                                         8 lines  20-DEC-1991 10:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re: DECheadbase
    
    We would also have to agree upon conventions for titling to make
    searches, etc easier.
    
    re: da ve
    
    There's flaws in rea's list, dammit! :-)
================================================================================
Note 97.1499                    Ask the Universe                    1499 of 1500
FURTHR::HANNAN "Beyond description..."               26 lines  20-DEC-1991 10:32
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re:                      <<< Note 97.1498 by SCOONR::GLADU >>>

>     We would also have to agree upon conventions for titling to make
>     searches, etc easier.
    
	There's not only the issue of titles but more so what are the 
	searches we'd like ?  That will have a big impact on the logical 
	design/tables structures and so on, as they'll probably change
	to accomodate the stuff we'd want out of it.

	Access requirements for example:

	. give me the set list for 3/28/73 (which I listened to last night,
	  what a great Dark Star!).  This is an obvious one.

	. list the dates/venues for Boston shows ?

	Do we want to get into "how many times did the band open with iko ?"

	This will be no ordinary database!  

	How well do all of you know SQL to access it ?  ;-)  

	And a while back I forgot a big gap: '74 and prior.

	Ken
================================================================================
Note 97.1500                    Ask the Universe                    1500 of 1500
SPICE::PECKAR "Shadow skiing the apocalypse"          4 lines  20-DEC-1991 10:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This discusssion has been moved to note 228

fwiw ....

- Dave

                 <<< BROKE::STAR01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GDB.NOTE;2 >>>
                                -< InstantSQL >-
================================================================================
Note 1.0                             Welcome                             1 reply
BROKE::BERRY "sleep is for parents that eat quiche"  22 lines  25-JUL-1991 16:38
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hello,
    
    This is the conference for the GDB product.
    
    GDB is a graphical front-end to relational database. It is based on a
    paradigm used both for displaying and manipulating data, and for
    generating queries - all these operations being highly graphical, and
    not requiring any knowlege of a specific database language.
    
    Initially, GDB uses RdB as its database. It will also use RdbStar as
    soon as available, and probably Ultrix/SQL, as well as more database
    engines that the market may require.
    
    This conference is public. Its goal is to provide a public forum for
    discussing the products, new features, problems, comments, etc...
    Please use lavishly, the development team needs your feedback.
    
    On behalf of the team:
    
    WELCOME
    
    JP

Hey, anything thats based onna paridigm sounds o.k. by me.  :-)

 re:         <<< Note 228.3 by FURTHR::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >>>

re:                      <<< Note 97.1498 by SCOONR::GLADU >>>

    >	. give me the set list for 3/28/73 (which I listened to last night,
    >	  what a great Dark Star!).  This is an obvious one.

    My first live Dark Star, but I digress.
    
    >	. list the dates/venues for Boston shows ?

    must be able to do this.
    
    >	Do we want to get into "how many times did the band open with iko ?"

    yep. even be able to search for "U Ain't Woman Enuff". :-)
    

Definitely should be able to search the database for just about anything a
person wants.  Should be able to search on the date, venue, city, state,
set list, etc,etc,etc.

It would be neat to have a windows interface to this also ... but, that'd
take time to write....

how will access work?  Will I be able to access the db from my machine? 

re:      <<< Note 228.8 by SIGJIP::FERGUSON "Guinness gives you strength" >>>
                               
>Should be able to search on the date, venue, city, state, set list, etc,
                                                           ^^^^^^^^
    Can't search by a set list. Songs, yes, whole lists, no.
    
    
>It would be neat to have a windows interface to this also
    
    Someone else can take that on. Not me.
    
    
    >Will I be able to access the db from my machine? 

    Of course. Think we're doing this just for Fog? :-)
    
    

First crack at a logical design:

TABLE: SHOWS

	columns: (date, city, state, venue)
	
	for example, (730328, Springfield, MA, Springfield Civic Center)


TABLE: SONGLISTS

	columns (date, setnum, song-id, ordernum, into-indicator)

	eg,	(730328, I, CUMB, 1, "")
		(730328, I, HCSN, 2, "")
		...
		(900919, II, PITB, 1, >)
		(900919, II, SHIP, 2, >)
		(900919, II, PITB, 3, >) ...

	I propose to use the 4 character pnemonics in deadbase which will
	be translated on retrieval.   Might make querying a pain though,
	but I don't think it would be a problem.  
	
	Could add a field for footnotes for a song, like "with Santana".
	Same for SHOWS, eg, "GET THE TAPE! ;-)".

TABLE: SONGS

	columns (song-id, songname)

	eg,	(CUMB, Cumberland Blues)
		(HCSN, Here Comes Sunshine)


Set list for 3/28/73 would be aquired with something similar to:

	SELECT show.date, city, state, venue, setnum, songname, into-indicator
	FROM   shows, songlists, songs 
	WHERE  show.date = "730328" and 
	       show.date = songlists.date and
	       songlists.song-id = songs.song-id
	GROUP BY songlists.setnum
	ORDER BY songlists.ordernum

The select could be made easy by having a view defined with a select similar
to the above, called SETLISTS, making the select equal to:

	SELECT * FROM SETLISTS WHERE DATE = "730328"

Gerry could satisfy his desire for hearing all versions of Donna's
"You Aint Woman Enough" with (show me the dates, location, and set number
for all shows with the song YAWE):

	SELECT show.date, city, state, venue, setnum
	FROM   shows, songlists
	WHERE  song-id = "YAWE" and
	       shows.date = songlists.date
	ORDER BY date

;-)

Shows with IKO openers in the first set:

	SELECT show.date, city, state, venue
	FROM   shows, songlists 
	WHERE  song-id = "IKO" and
	       setnum = "I" and
	       shows.date = songlists.date
	ORDER BY date


Ken

    re:                   <<< Note 228.9 by SCOONR::GLADU >>
                             
>>Should be able to search on the date, venue, city, state, set list, etc,
                                                           ^^^^^^^^
>Can't search by a set list. Songs, yes, whole lists, no.
    
    Actually, thru SQL or Teamdata, etc you could serch by a setlist.
    However, that'll be left as an exercise for the user and not the 
    programmer. :-)

    Actually, 3/28/73 has a fine example of "YAWE". :-/

	We also need a name for this database:  howsabout:

		DEADABASE (dead-a-base)

	ken

	Name?   How about DECBase?

> 	Name?   How about DECBase?

	That would "officially" imply that it runs on Ultrix, which it 
	won't (for now).

	Ken

    Would it be possible to have a table of song info (similar to the
    Deadbase table)?  Also would like to be able to search on guests at
    shows.  A field for song times would be handy, even if we can't fill in
    most of the data.
    
    Some dates have more than one show, so just keying on YYMMDD won't
    work.  I think there's even a few where they played more than one venue
    onthe same date.  And if we include solo shows, dates clash there too.
    
    As for a name, we should stay away from the corporate standard names. 
    If we give it a DEC-type name we're implying it's an official product,
    which it isn't, and we also may have some legal clashes with official
    products.  It shouldn't have any trademarked term in the name.
    
    How do you plan on listing the song titles? If it's a list, there
    should be a "link" field that says how the previous song led into it
    (i.e. a -> or a break, or is it the first of the set, encore etc).
    
    Scott, ex database hack
    

    
    I think that INGRES should be used in stead of RDB.....
    
    :^)
    
    Hogan attempting to stir up controversy

That is right, there are some days when there was both an early and a late
show.  This is one problem I have with my tape label program (not a hard prob.
to solve, just don't have time to deal w/ it).

Might be worthwhile to consider an additional table so that we could store 
information on other bands as well.

Something like:

TABLE: BANDS

	columns (band-id, bandname)

	eg,	(GD, Grateful Dead)
		(JGB, Jerry Garcia Band)
		(HFT, Hot Tuna)
		(SLIP, Slipknot!)

Then, this would have to be added to the songlists table, right?  Like this?:

TABLE: SONGLISTS

	columns (band-id,date, setnum, song-id, ordernum, into-indicator)

	eg,	(GD,730328, I, CUMB, 1, "")
		(GD,730328, I, HCSN, 2, "")
		...
		(GD,900919, II, PITB, 1, >)
		(GD,900919, II, SHIP, 2, >)
		(GD,900919, II, PITB, 3, >) 
		...
		(HFT,880130, I, IKYR, 1, "")
		(HFT,880130, I, HESI, 2, "")
		...

    Let's go for RDB/SQL.  It's a common DEC thing to do.
    
    I have one suggestion: make a separate note when the database is
    complete so one does not have to sift through the many notes this topic
    will have.
    
    dave

I second Dave Levy's request for multiple bands.  As a collector of both Dead
and JGB tapes, this would be most beneficial!

We should have some way marking songs for particular information.  Things like
special guest, first occurance of a particular song, last occurance of a
particular song.

We should be able to mark particular shows.  Things like Pig Pen's last show,
Brent's first show, etc.

The JGB stuff presents its own problems.  Do we call them all JGB or do we
categorize the various incarnations of JGB (Legion of Mary, Great American
String Band, etc.)?

	~dave

	Some good suggestions.   The one about notes for songs and
	shows has already been suggested and is a good one that will be 
	implemented.   

	Personnally I'd like to do this for just the dead and jgb,
	which is where my interest lies...   The design which calls	
	for 4 character deadbase mnemonics for song names would present 
	some problems with nondead bands and song names: conflicts, 
	non-uniqueness, etc.  It would complicate queries too where 
	you always have to specify the band name.  Non dead would be	
	very incomplete.   Is it worth it to complicate the design
	and access just for a few non-dead shows ?

	Ken

    re: non-dead database
    
    Let's just try to get the GD version implemented for now. We can do
    other bands (including JGB) later. They should have their own database
    anyways.
    
    Keep in mind someone will have to be responsible for keeping the
    database up-to-date. And how about volunteers for loading the database?
    Even at one person per year, we'd need 26 people. Any takers?
    
    The database is not a problem but defining a user interface could be.
    Whatever "common" inquiries that we build in will not be enough to
    satisfy everyone. Ideally (for me, that is :-), SQL can be used for
    ad hoc inquiries. But I'd like to see some suggestions for common 
    inquiries that you'd like to see included in the interface.

I agree with Gerry. Lets not make this into too beeg or complicated a thing..

	I official like volunteer to enter data.

	As for the UI, my take is: Keep it simple. Like, if it were written in 
DCL, for example, even a hardware hack like me could probably modify it enough 
to do some of the things I'd personally like to see (like pulling a setlist to 
work with a tape label program).

	Also, that makes it easier for you guys, too...
    
Fog

BTB&FYI, RBD is at 4.0 on SPICE...

    
    Working in the field and with customers on a regular basis, I can
    tell you that a phased approach to implementation is a good thing.
    Beyond the fact that it brings the system up faster and allows
    users to get used to it sooner, it also allows you to learn from
    your early mistakes and fix those problem in later phases.
    Of course, the full design of the system must me set up in advance
    so we know were we are going with this thing, but I would suggest
    we take a very simple approach to the initial "release".  Set 
    your/our sights on something like being able to query for the
    set list of a certain date, or for certain dates songs were played.
    Later, add note capabilities and other statistics.  
    
    Another thing I learned in the field, never reenter whats already
    on-line somewhere.  Possibly the Deadbase people will allow us
    access to the raw data for the set lists only, obviously they should
    and do have rights to the statistical data they have compiled, ie:
    start times, reviews, etc...  but the raw data related to JUST what
    they played may be obtainable.  We should at least investigate if this
    is possible before we all spend sleepless nights for the next 27 weeks
    entering set list information obtained mostly FROM Deadbase....
    
    My 2 cents worth...
    
    
    By the way, its 65 degrees out down here.... might hit 70 before
    weeks end...  I may need to mow my lawn this weekend... 
    

re:        <<< Note 228.27 by SAHQ::SWITTS "It's still nice in Atlanta" >>>

>     By the way, its 65 degrees out down here.... might hit 70 before
>     weeks end...  I may need to mow my lawn this weekend... 
		    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    And you're happy about this ???  ;-)  

    Ken whose lawn is covered with ice and snow and loving it ;-)    

	Apparently, this effort is dying because:

	   o	No one has volunteered to enter data yet.

	   o	The writers feel that for the effort involved in making 
		it everything to everybody, few would end up using it anyhow.

    re: -1
    
    I volunteer to help with Data entry.
    
    I think this would be used alot!!  There are quite a few people who
    don't have DeadBase but do trading. imo.
    
    :-)
    Scott g
    
    

I'll input data too

re:       <<< Note 228.29 by SPICE::PECKAR "Shadow skiing the apocalypse" >>>

>	Apparently, this effort is dying because:
>
>	   o	The writers feel that for the effort involved in making 
>		it everything to everybody, few would end up using it anyhow.


	I don't feel this way at all.  I think it would be used quite a bit.

	I just think that motivation (and time) is the key to moving ahead
	with this, and we're in a lull as far as that goes. 

	Ken

	Sorry Ken; I shoudda said "Ger" instead of "the writers"....

..and me, who isn't writing a thing...

Would it be possible to use existing data files for input; example,
the files that Jim Rehill's label program uses?  Just as a start.  I
realize there's the issue with songs being spelled differently, etc.

- Dave

re:            <<< Note 228.34 by VMPIRE::CLARK "sleep in the stars" >>>

> Would it be possible to use existing data files for input; example,
> the files that Jim Rehill's label program uses?  Just as a start.  I
> realize there's the issue with songs being spelled differently, etc.

	Using complete existing files would be great, but using
	some shows just here and there on file probably wouldn't 
	be worth the effort IMO.    In other words, periodic already 
	on-line files for single shows aint worth looking into.

	Ken

    We might be able to download from Stack-O-Dead but I'd have to
    look into it. Anyone here have Stack-O-Dead? Anyone ever download 
    data from a Mac to Rdb? 

	Do you know what kind of dbms is used for Stack-O-Dead ?

	I'm sure there must be a way.

	Ken

We have Stack-O-Dead on our MAC at home.  I'm pretty sure it's written
with Hypercard.  I'm not sure how you would convert it though.

peace,
t!ng

>We have Stack-O-Dead on our MAC at home.  I'm pretty sure it's written
>with Hypercard.  I'm not sure how you would convert it though.

	It can be uu encoded on a MAC machine, then emailed and Uu decoded.

I've seen it done with executables, so I don't see why it wouldn't werk for any 
other kinda stuff

Do you really think it will work on any old machine that's not a MAC?
I always thought the graphics were pretty specific to the MAC.  I'll
look into it this weekend though.

peace,
t!ng

        I do some Hypercard programming from time to time.  If someone
        would send me the Hypercard Stack, I can add code to it to
        extract the data to a text file.
        
        Hypercard Stacks aren't just data.  They are an application and
        data munged together into a single file.
        
        _Mike

    
    
    	As mentioned earlier, I do have lots of those years online in an
    ASCII database. We might have to do something to convert format, buth
    there's lots of data there. It might be nice to have poeple sit down
    with a Deadbase and correct the errors in them. I got 1974 to 1984 off
    the Enet, and have been filling in the rest as they happen.
    

        The advertisement reproduced below (within the limits of an ASCII
        character cell display :-) came with my last order of tapes from
        Terrapin Tapes.  It is posted here strictly as an FYI - no
        endorsement, explicit or implicit, is made in this posting.

        That said...

        The author had been discussing this on The WELL.  It seems
        interesting.  I may even scare up the $40 to check it out,
        although I have some doubts about the implied "one tape-one show"
        format.  But I may be mistaken.
        
        Bob

        -----------------------------------------------------------------

                     TIRED OF FILLING OUT ALL OF THOSE
                             CASSETTE LABELS?
                             
                                    GET
                                    
                               LET'S TRADE!
                               
        Let's Trade is a computer program that keeps track of your GD
        tape list for you.  It has every show's set list from 1972-1991.
        It keeps track of useful information about each tape, such as
        generation, quality, source, time and who you got it from.  When
        you get a new tape all you have to do is add the date to your
        tape list and Let's Trade will do the rest.  It prints cassette
        or DAT labels, and a complete listing of all your tapes.  You can
        even serach for songs in your tape list and display or print just
        the tapes with that song.  Let's Trade has a built in address
        book and can print mailing labels.  It also has a built in memo
        pad to help keep track of all your trades.  Let's Trade runs on
        an IBM PC or compatible computer with at least 640K RAM and a
        hard disk.
        
        Send a check or money order for $40 (tax, handling and shipping
        included) to:

                              Terrapin Tapes
                              P.O. Box 1408
                            Greenwich, CT 06836
   For telephone orders call 1-800-677-8650, Visa and Master Card only
            Let's Trade Copyright (c) 1991 by Adam Robucci
                       Distributed by Terrapin Tapes

	Sometime, when I get the chance, I want to really spiff up my dead
tape label program and add an GUI to it.  Maybe it'll become an offcial
DEC product... nah, doubt it...

How about a scanner??  Would it be feasible to scan Deadbase??

peace,
t!ng

    About Stack-o-Dead...
    
    I was playing with an older version of it.  It's already got an export
    function built in.  You can export one year, or the whole thing. 
    Didn't look like it would be too hard to come up with a program to read
    the text files, and get things into the right places.
    
    One problem, though.  It doesn't look like it pays a lot of attention
    to songs flowing into other songs (i.e. China -> I Know You), so if
    that info was desired, it would take some retrofitting.
    
    j

    re: t!ng's suggestion to scan DeadBase
    
    DeadBase is, I believe, a copyrighted book.  Scanning it would be illegal.
    
    tms_surprised_that_mr_white_didn't_beat_me_to_it!

The setlists are copyrighted??!!??  I don't mean scan the whole book
- just the setlists.

peace,
t!ng

          <<< Note 228.48 by SKYLRK::TING "Give Peace a Chance!!!" >>>
>The setlists are copyrighted??!!??  I don't mean scan the whole book
>- just the setlists.

You know,  I've asked that question in here before - the setlists are 
widely available from a lot of different places (maybe not to the accuracy
and completeness)....

I don't think you could copyright the actual data but the style they use
and abbreviations may be copyright-able.

bob

>I don't think you could copyright the actual data but the style they use
>and abbreviations may be copyright-able.

Kinda like sporting events on TV - the game itself is not copyrighted, but the 
representation broadcast on TV is (or something like that).

Scott

>>I don't think you could copyright the actual data but the style they use
>>and abbreviations may be copyright-able.
>
>Kinda like sporting events on TV - the game itself is not copyrighted, but the 
>representation broadcast on TV is (or something like that).
    
Exactly!  The setlists themselves are not copyrighted, but DeadBase's 
presentation of them is.  Scanning DeadBase would constitute ripping off
their work in compiling, organizing, formatting, and publishing the
setlists.

tms

    So let me get this straight.  If I took my deadbase and used it to get
    the setlists which I then stored electronically in my own format, I
    wouldn't be violating their copyright.  But if I took my deadbase,
    entered setlists via scanning and OCR, and then processed them into my
    own format (the same format as above) I WOULD be violating their
    copyright?  That doesn't make sense to me (but then, neither do a lot
    of the other laws ;-) )
    
    j

    re: -.1
    
    Well, one involves direct electronic reproduction via scanning
    and the other does not. 
    
    FWIW, if you *did* scan it someone would have to write a parser
    to decode and store the data from the text file. I would prefer
    to avoid that.
    
    Gerry

    And if you look at the very beginning of the Deabase book it says
    words to the effect of "This is a labor of love, please don't rip us
    off".....
    
    

    re: last two
    
    Hmmmm.  I guess I just don't see the ethical difference between copying
    information by hand and storing it into one's own format, and
    electronically entering something and storing it into one's own format.
    The only difference to me is the level of effort required to get it
    into it's final form.  If anything, I'd go with saying Deadbase
    shouldn't be used at all, rather than say it's ok to hand enter it but
    not ok to scan it. (In fact, in the spirit of .54, I WOULD say that).
    
    I imagine it is true that Deadbase is one of the most accurate sources
    of setlists, especially early setlists.  Thus, it would be nice to be
    able to use it.  So, I imagine the right thing to do would be to write
    to Stu Nixon, et. al., describe what we'd like to do, and ask if they
    minded us using the setlists (and just the setlists, not all the other
    information which they've painstakingly derived) from Deadbase.  At the
    same time, we could ask if they minded an electronic means (scanning
    and OCR) being used to enter these setlists (again, JUST the setlists).
    
    As far as writing a parser to decode and store data from the text file,
    I think some sort of parser would be necessary if any text file was to
    be used, whether that file originated from someone's archives, the internet,
    stack-o-dead, or elsewhere.  Unless a front-end for the database (which
    stored the info directly into the database from direct user input)
    were the only means of entering data, something has to interpret a text
    file.
    
    FWIW, unless someone has access to a good scanner, and an OCR package
    that had a 98-99% hit rate on the Deadbase font, the whole scanning
    issue could be a moot point.

Um, did we definitely decide that using Mystery Hill's setlist data files would
not be useful?

    re: mystery's data files
    
    We'd still have to write a parser (and besides, there's typos in it :-)
    
    In any case, all of the songs would have to be stored in a consistant
    manner in his data files or they wouldn't be picked up by the parser
    as the same songs - eg Help>Slip>Frank is different than Help on the
    Way>Slipknot>Franklin's. 
    
    As for Stack-O-Dead, we can just plain downright duplicate the format.
    Just export the database to a compressed file then import it into our
    database.

    re: different song names
    
    About a year and a half ago, when I was learning RDB and DECWindows, I
    had been thinking of doing something like a simple version of this
    database as a way to learn.  One thing I though about (never decided
    whether to use one relation or two), was to have a relation with the
    primary name for a song, and some sort of key which would be used to
    cross the song name with other relations.  Then, either by something
    in that same table, or in a different table, have alternate names which
    would be recognized.  For example, in the single relation model, there
    would be something like
    
    Song Key    Song Name         Primary Name
    HOTW        Help on the Way   Y
    HOTW        Help              N
    
    So just "Help" could be entered during initial data entry, and it would
    be properly recognized as "Help on the Way".  Whenever a song title
    was output, the primary name would be used.  The number of permutations
    would still have to be limited, though.
    
    I also wondered (though never looked into it) if I could lift something
    out of the spell checker technology (making blanks into a valid
    character, rather than a delimiter) to help cover typos.  So if
    "Hlep on teh Way" was entered, it would figure out that "Help on the
    Way" was probably intended.  Never got out of the thinking phase on
    that one, though.
    
    Now, here's where I show my database ignorance.  What do you mean by
    duplicating Stack-O-Dead's format, and just importing it into the
    database. (Actually, how does one do an import in general?  I know
    imports are possible, I just don't know the mechanics of doing it).
    
    john
    

    As long as I'm rambling...  Here's a couple more ideas I had for manual
    data entry.
    
    As I said, I was thinking of doing this as a windows application.  So
    another thought was to have some sort of widget that had a scrollable
    list of all songs, a data entry area, and some other buttons (like
    which set, should an arrow go after the song, enter song into list,
    enter entire show into database, etc).  Double clicking on
    a song would enter it as the next song in the show.  (There'd
    be a history type area showing what songs had been entered so far)
    There'd also be something like command completion, so that as soon as
    enough characters were typed to uniquely identify the song, the
    scrollable area would zip to the proper place.  I thought that later
    I'd add some sort of dialog, so that if an unrecognized song was
    entered, it would pop up and ask if that song title should be added to
    the master song list, and also offer an option to map that title to an
    existing song in the master list.
    
    Like I said, more ramblings...

    re: import/export
    
    It's just terminology at this point. I don't know anything about
    SO'D yet and therefore wouldn't know the correct way to go about 
    doing this just yet.
    
    As for database keys using song abbreviations...that's already been
    planned and tested.

re .59:
    Is that Windows (MS) Windows
    	or
    DEC (X) Windows?

I hope you implement that in X Windows, John.  That way, Deadheads from
other companies can also benefit from the application.

peace,
t!ng

    Somewhere in my files I have a chunk of code I borrowed from someone
    else that checks for typos.  It won't identify gross misspellings but
    it will find common typos - transposed, missing, duplicated letters. 
    It has maybe 6 rules to look for.  You give it the word and a pointer
    to a list that contains the "base" words, and it will return a status
    code and the properly spelled word.  It's written in C, I can find it
    if it will be of some use.
    
    Scott_who_hopes_I_still_have_it_after_almost_10_years
    

    Uh-oh.  Didn't mean to give the wrong impression.  These ideas were
    from about a year and a half ago.  I don't think I've even got the
    basic prototypes around anymore...   I never did learn much past the
    basics of DecWindows, though, since I took the class while working on a
    project which NO windowing at all (unless you want to call DECForms
    windowing...).  I'm now in a job working on a UI in Motif, so I'm
    picking up bits and pieces here and there, but since my project is the
    extension language, I again have no direct work related to Motif.
    Anyway, in answer to the previous questions: it would have been X-windows
    based.
    
    Actually, I'm still interested in doing something like this, and would
    be happy to help out whenever I can.  I'll try to dig up the notes I
    had on it.
    
    john
    this effort, though

    I doubt that we'll be implementing this in dec or x windows since
    many/most people in here don't have one or the other. Anyone is
    free to cook up a version and share it with us, however.

I noticed that on the net someone has posted an address from which one can pull 
over a data file of 1991 setlists in Stack-o-dead format.   I dunno if this 
would be helpful or not...

Scott_not_a_database_expert_and_doesn't_play_one_on_tv

	Everything be x eventually...