Conference moira::parenting_v3

    I don't feel that the three rules that the teacher is implying are
    unreasonable, and at 3.5 years old, your son should have been abiding
    by these rules for some time.  My son is only 16 months old and already
    knows that he must put back one toy before playing with another.
    
    Lori B.

    re: Lori B.
    
    Just to clearify, Eric has no problem with toy rule.  I think his
    problem is mainly, talking while teacher is speaking.  Another
    thing I forgot to mention is his school encourages independent
    play (not interactive play).  Every child should play along and
    should not interfere other children's play.  I was told that
    Eric will try to teach other children how to play a toy.  This
    seems to bother the teacher.
    
    Wendy
    

I think it is normal to expect a 3 year old to be _learning_ these rules but
certainly not reasonable to expect automatic obedience.  School is a learning
experience and this behavior is part of the education.

Let me give an example.  When my children were about 4 years old I took each
of them to the cinema for the first time.  Each one of them talked through
the whole film (LOUDLY).  Most of the other little kids were doing the same 
thing.  This was a really new experience and something where they had to learn 
new behavior patterns.  Another few times to the cinema and they learned to 
listen and, if they had something to say, to say it softly.

What bothers me in your note is not so much that the teacher is exasperated
that he isn't behaving correctly because I believe a 3.5 yr old _could_ be
taught this behavior, but that already at two weeks into the class, she was
complaining about his lack of self-discipline.  She hasn't given the child a
chance.

IMO

cheryl

    I'd get my child out of that (what seems to be to be) boot camp
    immediately.  Now, I am in now way saying that children don't need 
    rules to abide by and to be disciplined at times, but I also think 
    that kids need to be allowed to be kids, heck there'll be enough 
    time when he gets older that he will have to be in such a rigid 
    environment.  THis is of course, my opinion and your mileage may 
    vary.
    
    Mike 

    Well, kids can be conditioned to do (or not do) almost anything, but
    IMO asking a 3.5-year-old to raise his hand before saying ANYTHING to a
    teacher is cruel and unusual squelching!
    
    I'm sure the individual-play focus works well for many kids, but even
    for those solo types I would question having individual play be the
    only mode all day, every day.  Talk to the teacher ...after having
    raised your hand ;-} ... and see if they do budget free-for-all time,
    kids-teaching-kids time, etc.  I'd tell her my concerns (that, worst
    case, it might be a Sit-down-shut-up-don't-bother-anyone situation) and
    find out if you do have a serious philosophical conflict.
    
    Leslie

    Here's my two pennies:
    
    1.  "Do you think its reasonable for him to be self-disciplined?"
    
         Yes.  BUT he may need some help from you.  The teacher should
         have continued communicating the problems to you since that
         two-week period you mentioned in the basenote. You should be
         touching base with the teacher daily, in my opinion.
    
         And you should be following up at home.  See suggestion 2.
    
         I would be pro-active about talking to this teacher on a daily
         basis.
    
    2.   "How to work on self-disciplining?"
    
         I used a chart with stickers (I let Bob pick out the stickers).
         If he got a good daily report from his teacher for certain
         things:  e.g. "Good listening", "Quiet at nap" he got stickers
         for them.  If he didn't earn his stickers, he didn't get to
         do a favorite activity that evening(e.g. not allowed to ride his 
         bike afte school, or not allowed to play Candyland that evening).
    
    3.  "Only one in the class that does this" perception
    
         Talk to the other parents.  I got the same feeling when Bob
         was in the toddler room - every night the teacher would approach
         me, rolling her eyes, sighing, groaning, oh-he-was-so-awful-today,
         lots of dramatics and a goodly dose of negativity.  I talked
         to other parents and found that she did the same thing to them
         and that was just, well, 'her way' (hey, nobody's perfect...).
         I found it reassuring to know that Bob wasn't the only one
         cutting up, if you will.                        
    
         You might also try asking the teacher, straight out, "Is he
         the only child that has these problems?".
    
    Priscilla
    

    I could be wrong, but isn't part of the Montessori philosophy to "learn
    from others"?  I thought that is one of the reasons they have different
    ages in the same class.  If someone knows more about this, please let
    me know.  I could be thinking of something else.

    I know when I first took my son (3.5+) to his preschool, I was
    telling the teacher/owner that I was trying to explain to Michael
    about raising his hand if he had a question to ask and she said
    I was definitely asking too much!  
    
    ..sounds a bit too structured for a 3 year old class to me.

    The more I witness and read about schools and the learning process, I
    become a stronger believer in the need to match each child's needs.  It
    sounds to me that the class you described is too structured for your
    son, and possibly most 3.5 year olds.  Do you really want him to play
    only independently, and not encourage his obvious desire to interact?
    What is the reason behind the structure in this teacher's eyes?
    
    I would suggest you discuss it further with his teacher, and talk with
    other parents.  There is plenty of time to learn about rules and
    regulations later.  If he obeys when asked to do something, that is
    enough in my opinion. As long as he is happy, and not disruptive, let
    him express himself. 
    
    Mary

    
    
    	RE: Wendy
    
    	FWIW, and I haven't read the previous replies, but the latest
    	issue of Parenting has a small section of finding a good
    	Pre-School.  Since my boyfriend's niece is three, I scanned
    	the "What a 3-year old should have..." section.
    
    	I distinctly remember reading that three year olds have a
    	difficult time remembering rules - you're not alone and
    	perhaps you should bring the article to the school.. 
    	
    	/Kim

    Thanks for all the replies.
    
    I have decided to talk to Eric's teacher further before moving
    him to another class/school.  I have setup a conference with
    the teacher after New Year.  If her answers still bother me,
    I will talk to school director and maybe move Eric to another
    class.
    
    I did talk to some other parents.  One parent also got similar
    complaints about her son.  This makes me feel a lot better.
    Another parent was told that her daughter is too quiet.  I
    guess it is hard to be perfect :-).
    
    I am also looking into other pre-schools.  Currently, Eric's
    class has 20 students.   I feel it is too big for a Montessori
    program (ie: the teacher would not have time to observe each
    child's progress in depth).  Maybe this is why the teacher has 
    less patient with each student.
    
    Wendy

    You're right to start worring about this now. 
    
    Steven at 7.5 still has "problems" in the areas of interrupting
    (he gets too excited about discovering something new to wait to
    share his insight) and "intruding" on other children's play --
    he's extremely sociable, much prefers to do things in groups than
    on his own -- though he's perfectly capable of entertaining
    himself for long periods of time, he would much rather have
    someone else to do it with.  This includes eating breakfast and
    doing his chores.  It isn't that he's trying to get other people
    to do things for him, the way I sometimes think, it's just that
    he's a social person.  I'm much more of a loner, so we have our
    friction about it.  
    
    It sounds like your son might well have a big component of the
    sociable team worker in him, while the school is structured to the
    independent loner.  And it would be, as another note points out, a
    matter of a mismatch of student personality and teaching style
    rather than anything unreasonable or wrong about either the
    school's rules or your son's behavior.  
    
    But the child very quickly gets the message that there is
    something wrong with him.  It astonishes me how rapidly Steven
    seems to have assimilated a mental picture of himself as
    disruptive and out of control -- so naturally that's how he
    behaves now.  I wish I had paid more attention to it rather than
    brushing it off when I first realized that's what was going on.
    
    Talking to the teacher sounds like the right place to start. 
    
    --bonnie

Many, many, 3.5 year olds conduct themselves much like Eric does.  Many kids
NEED the interaction, and in fact I could see how an independent play
situation may actually be bad for an introverted child.  Unfortunately, the
way the teacher put it has framed the question as "Does Eric deserve to be
here?"  If that's the teacher's attitude, then I'd walk.  But I submit that
there is another way of looking at it.  "Is this preschool/ daycare
appropriate for Eric?" is a much more relevant question to ask, and isn't so
value laden a question.

There is NO style of daycare that "works" for everyone.  Children develop
different skills, including patience, at different rates.  Perhaps Eric would
be  happier in a different (younger)class in the same school, a different 
Montessori school, or a different type of daycare/preschool entirely.

We considered a Montessori daycare once.  We ended up not using it because 
of cost, and because their hours didn't coincide with our needs, but I
distinctly remember my  impression of the school.  My first impression was
being somewhat in awe of  the orderliness and quiet of the room.  As you
mention in the base note, the  kids were quiet, playing mostly individually,
and put an activity away before  starting another.  But my awe gradually
became a vague feeling of discomfort;  it seemed unnaturally quiet and
orderly, almost like there weren't any real kids in the room.  But that was
only my own personal reaction, based on a very short observation period.  I
know many parents who have had wonderful experiences with Montessori Schools.

And I don't mean to bash the teacher too much.  For one, evidently, she
hasn't taken her feelings out on Eric.  And SHE may be reacting to complaints
of other parents, who want the orderly, quiet atmosphere that many Montessori 
schools offer.

Clay  

Why would anyone want to restict a child's development, in the child's
formative years, by restricting them to one toy at a time?

As long as they clear up when asked or when they have finished playing, what's
the problem?

Dave (Mystified of the UK).

    I agree with you, Dave, but I know many many people who have the
    one-toy-at-a-time rule.  And they mostly consider it a virtue to
    have taught their kids to follow the rule.  Quiet, tidy kids. 
    
    Well, some kids are quiet and tidy.  Some kids aren't.
    
    With Steven, I'm lucky if he actually puts away all the toys in
    one place.  He's as likely to dismantle a couple of them and use
    the pieces to make a sculpture, and then proudly come to get me to
    look at what he made!  When he was 5, he spent a quiet afternoon
    playing on the porch.  He took my good clipboard, a big bottle of
    Elmer's, a handful of marble-sized coal chunks from a neighbor's
    yard, and a large rock.  He glued the rock to the clipboard, and
    glued the bits of coal in rings around the rock.  It's a sculpture
    of a mountain.  
    
    Do I yell at him for destroying my clipboard, or do I praise the
    creativity?  The problem is the flip side of one of his strongest
    points.  He's also stubborn and frequently uncooperative -- and if
    he's going to do anything with that kind of creativity, he'd
    better be able to hold onto his vision in the face of a lot of
    reasonable opposition requesting that he conform.  
    
    I suspect the same thing is often true -- that a given child's
    problems are going to be a consequence of or the flip side of
    their strongest assets.  And then you have to think whether you
    want to concentrate on developing the weakness or on reinforcing
    the good side (probably both), whether you want to encourage your
    child to develop his own strong idiosyncratic personality or to
    get along well in conventional school, or be sociable and happy,
    or whatever.  
    
    But as Clay so succinctly put it, the question is, Is this daycare
    or school situation the best for my child at this stage of his
    development?  What's perfect for one child will be disastrous for
    another child.
    
    --bonnie

    
    My son is 5 and goes to a Title 1 Program in Nashua.  There are 4 and 5
    year olds in his class of 15 (with two teachers).  There are kids in
    the class that have to be reminded of the rules but, the teachers do
    not complain about this but, try and help them remember what the rules
    are in the class.  There is one boy in the class that has to go to the
    principals office almost everyday for 10 minutes because he gets too
    wound up.  After 10 minutes in the principals office he is fine.  I
    and some of the other parents do volunteer to help in the class or go
    on field trips and have seen how the teachers work with the kids.  
    
    I wish that my son would have these two teachers till he graduated from
    high school.
    
    I would see if you could volunteer to go into the classroom and see how
    this teacher works.  I know that she wouldn't do things the same way as
    she would if you weren't there but, at least you could get a feel for
    the way she teaches her class.
    							carol
    

My son, now age 9, was a very rambunctious child at 3 (and 2 and 1 for that
matter), and although he has toned down to a great degree, is still very
much an individual. 

Most people told me that he was too wild, even hyperactive.  He was my
first and I didn't have alot of experience with kids; I didn't know whether
what folks were telling me was right or not. His first grade teacher told
me he was "all boy" and not to change a thing, but his 2nd grade teacher
wanted more self-control.

I eventually took him to a child psychologist to be evaluated for
hyperactivity.  I almost laughed when I got his report (after weekly visits
over several months - in other words a pretty in-depth evaluation) that said
Sean was perfectly normal in all respects and that none of his behavior was
inappropriate.  The only thing the Dr. did say was that Sean did better in
structured environments and small groups -which is the opposite of what
Montessori schools seem to advocate (independence).

We need to keep on him, especially about doing things he dislikes (telling
him to clean his room 3 times before he does it, etc. - but then who jumps
at the opportunity to do chores?), and when he gets in a group of kids,
he's often the loudest, but he can also absorb himself in a book
or in play for hours by himself.  I'd rather have him be who he is
with all his excitement and imagination and spontaneity than a "good little
soldier" who follows orders.

The moral to this story is:

Perhaps your son just needs a bit more structure and one-on-one than a
large class offers (20 3- and 4-year-olds to one teacher is quite high
IMO).  Also remember that (please forgive the generalization, but if the
shoe fits...) boys that age tend to be more active and less likely to
conform than girls.

-Caryn

    This note reminded me of a song by Harry Chapin;
    

{This song is inspired by a friend of Chapin's whose son had the following 
written on his progress card;
"Your son, marches to the beat, of a different drummer.  But don't 
worry, we'll have him joining the parade, by the end of the term."}


			Flowers are Red			- Harry Chapin

	The little boy went, first day of school
	he got some crayons and he started to draw.
	He put colors all over the paper,
	for colors was what he saw.

	And the teacher said "What you doin' young man?"
	"I'm painting flowers!", he said
	she said "It's not the time for art young man,
	and anyway flowers are green and red".

	"There's a time for everything, young man
	a way it should be done.
	You've got to show concern for everyone else
	for you're not the only one."

	And she said, "Flowers are red, young man, 
	green leaves are green.
	There's no need to see flowers any other way
	than the way they always have been seen."

	But the little boy said;
	"There are so many colors in the rainbow,
	so many colors in the morning sun,
	so many colors in a flower,
	and I see every one."

	Well the teacher said "You're sassy!
	There's ways that things should be.
	And you'll paint flowers the way they are
	so repeat after me!"

	And she said, "Flowers are red, young man, 
	green leaves are green.
	There's no need to see flowers any other way
	than the way they always have been seen."

	But the little boy said again;
	"There are so many colors in the rainbow,
	so many colors in the morning sun,
	so many colors in a flower,
	and I see every one."

	Well, the teacher put him in a corner,
	she said "It's for your own good!
	And you won't come out till you get it right
	and are responding like you should!"

	Well finally he got lonely,
	frightened thoughts filled his head,
	and he went up to that teacher, 
	and this is what he said

	And he said "Flowers are red, 
	and green leaves are green.
	There's no need to see flowers any other way
	than the way they always have been seen."


	Of course time went by, like it always does,
	they moved to another town.
	And the little boy went to another school,
	this is what he found.

	The teacher there was smiling,
	she said "Painting should be Fun!
	And there are so many colors in a flower,
	so let's use every one!"

	But that little boy painted flowers
	in neat rows of green and red,
	and when the teacher asked him why,
	this is what he said
	
	And he said "Flowers are red, 
	and green leaves are green.
	There's no need to see flowers any other way
	than the way they always have been seen."


	.... but there still must be a way to have our children say;

	"There are so many colors in the rainbow,
	so many colors in the morning sun,
	so many colors in a flower,
	and I see every one."
    

    Thanks again for all the replies.  
    
    I had a long talk with a friend over the weekend.  She is a Montessori
    certified teacher and is currently teaching in a Montessori 
    pre-school.  She knows my son well.  Actually, she was the one
    suggested Montessori school for Eric.  She reassured me that
    there is nothing abnormal with Eric's behavior.  And, she still
    thinks Eric will do good in a Montessori program.  Her advise is
    to find a different class with less teacher/student ratio.
    Her current class has a 1/11 ratio, yet Eric's class has a 
    1/20 ratio.  She personally thinks that it is almost impossible
    to teach anything if the ratio is greater than 1/15 and the
    teacher will be under great stress.
    
    I took her advise and started looking into other Montessori
    schools in the neighborhood.   I will still have a conference
    with Eric's teacher in few weeks.  However, after talking to
    my friend, I feel much better.
    
    Wendy     
    

    Just catching up on this note --
    
    I'm glad you decided to stay with Montessori, as we have been really
    happy with our son's Montessori school. I like the way they put the
    Mont. principles into practice. Kids are encouraged to work in groups
    if they want, because many kids learn best that way. On the other hand,
    independent types are respected and supported. 
    
    I also like the emphasis on keeping the classroom peaceful. This
    doesn't mean the room is quiet, but kids are asked to respect each
    other and the teachers (e.g. no interrupting, grabbing, etc). They can
    use the materials any way they want as long as they are not destructive
    or disruptive. They practice the "one activity at a time" rule; on an 
    average day that means you might see eighteen kids working on eight
    different activities simultaneously, some alone and some in groups,
    with teachers moving among them as needed. Self-discipline is a goal
    implicit in all this, but it's not expected to happen overnight -
    it takes time and practice.
    
    Let us know how it works out, Wendy.
    
    Lucy