Conference moira::parenting_v3

    Leeann,
    
    I've had to close relatives mis-carry and I honestly didn't know what
    to really say or do. (I also called both of them on the exact day they
    miscarried to wish then congratulations - they were both early
    pregnancy loses). It is an awkward situation because they need to
    mourn but you are mourning over their loss not actually over someone
    you knew. I would definitely say send her a very nice card - not a
    sympathy card but maybe a "thinking of you" card and write a note that
    says exactly what you are thinking - you'd like to do much more and do
    share in their greif. I'm assuming that the baby was not far along and
    that there was no formal funeral. If there was a formal funeral, then
    flowers would have been appropraite at that time. If you are late,
    maybe plant a tree or bush at the grave site (a living memorial). 
    
    I think being a friend and a good listening ear is the best thing you
    can give. There are also a number of support groups around. Maybe give
    one a call for tips and hints of things that might not really make the
    person feel better (like "you can always have another").
    
    Andrea 

    Hi Leeann,
    
    You must be a very special friend to recognize your friends
    loss and want to be sure to support her in an appropriate way.
    
    We endured our first miscarriage last January.  It is terribly
    sad and hard to work through.  Unfortunately, miscarriages are
    often not recognized as "true" losses by our society -- however,
    much is being done to change this.  I believe I did write a response
    to this in one of the last versions of parenting -- but I couldn't
    find it.
    
    ANYHOW -- go with your gut on this.  First, the best thing that
    most grieving parents want to hear is that you're sorry.  Whether
    you do it through a letter or phone call is best decided by you.
    We did receive flowers from our family and friends.  I guess our
    PERSONAL reaction seemed strongest to those who wrote special
    notes to us recognizing this little life we lost and supporting
    our sadness.
    
    There is a terrific support group through New England Memorial.
    Kelly Collier runs it (508-657-8094) and I'm sure she could give
    you any additional info you might want.
    
    I too have a terrific catalog of all sorts of books for the parents,
    siblings, friends, or just interested folks who want to learn about
    miscarriages and infant loss.  How ironic that I brought the catalog
    today to xerox for a friend.  If you don't mind I'll mail you a
    copy today.  If anyone else wants a copy, please feel free to send
    me mail.
    
    My hunch is that your friend really needs your support.  Grieving
    is real tough work.  As is true of all grieving it may impact them
    in different ways over different periods of time -- so hang in there
    with them if you can!
    
    Best of luck,
    Julia
    
         

    
    Leeann,
    
    Andrea's reply was right on the mark -- the best thing you can do is be
    there to listen to your friends when they need you.  And understand
    that it may take them a while to work out how they feel about the
    miscarriage.
    
    The death of *any* child is traumatic.  We expect those that are older
    than us to die first, just as we expect our children to survive us. 
    When that sequence is disrupted, it causes a great deal of emotional
    turmoil.
    
    A miscarriage marks the death of a child as well as the sudden loss of
    a great many hopes and dreams -- especially in the case of a first
    child.  If the parents have looked forward to the child with a great
    deal of anticipation, the loss is even greater.
    
    Be patient with your friends and listen to them.  Eighteen months after
    our miscarriage (even with the subsequent birth of a beautiful, perfect
    daughter) we still have times when we are very, very sad.   Some of our
    close friends make those times bearable.
    
    Mike 

    I know when I miscarried our first child, there was a tremendous
    feeling of aloneness - this hadn't happened to anyone I knew, there 
    was something wrong with me, we'd never have children, etc.   I felt
    an incredible sense of failure.   I guess what helped me the most is
    just to talk...through talking, I learned that many, many people
    that I know had also suffered miscarriages and that I was NOT alone
    in this.    I also learned that the majority of these people had
    subsequent successful pregnancies and happy, healthly children.
    
    I'd suggest that you let your friend know that you are there for her
    if she wants (sometimes, you don't want to talk either!).  As others
    have suggested, a "thinking of you" card or flowers might be nice
    as well.
    
    Although I stated above that it helped to hear that others who
    had miscarried had successful pregnancies later, you do need to
    be careful in presenting this - don't discount the current loss,
    it is very real.
    
    cj/

Leeann, I miscarried my second child last November.  The support
I received from this very notesfile helped me a great deal. (if you
ever read V2, check out "Goodby Patrick").

It's understandable that you don't quite know what to say or do.
That's normal.  I received many cards and quite a few flowers.
They all meant so much.  It helped me realize that others recognized
my loss and helped me validate my grief.  I've kept all the cards 
because some day I want to share them with Patrick's older sister
and his sibling due in December.

Be there to listen.  Let your friends cry, shout, curse or do whatever
is needed.  Don't judge.  It's not the right time to tell them it was
God's will, even if you believe it was.  It would be pretty tough to
think God would want someone to suffer so.  Be up front.  Let them
know you don't know what to say, but also don't expect them to make
you feel more comfortable.  Let them grieve.  Be sure to recognize
that it isn't easy for the spouse, either.  I think sometimes we
forget that the father also grieves.  I remember that my manager
called my husband a couple times and I thought that was very nice.

Liz

    Etiquette note:  I have read that to Orthodox Jews, flowers are
    a sign of joy, so maybe a green plant, signifying hope and life,
    is more appropriate.  Maybe Jewish noters can shed some light on
    this.
    
    I agree with the other noters, definitely reach out to your friends
    and tell them how much you care.  Nothing is as important at a time
    like this as a "waiting silence" -- let them know that when they're
    ready to talk, you'll be there for them.
    
    In sympathy,
    Kate

    
    I just recalled something that happened after my miscarriage:
    
    My mother (we live 1000 miles apart) sent me a houseplant.  The
    florist, trying to dress up the plant, put a little nest with 
    three blue-speckled eggs in the pot.   It was awful!   The chances
    of this happening are very slim, but if I were to send a plant
    to a couple grieving over a miscarriage, I would be sure to mention
    not to decorate the plant this way!
    
    cj/

    
    As other noters have said - just letting them know that you are there
    for them is a great help.
    
    I miscarried my first child 3 1/2 weeks ago (I wass 14 weeks along) and
    really appreciated the "silent" support that I received.  There are two
    things that I heard a lot of that at the time did not help me at all.
    These were "you're young - you'll have more children" and "it was
    for the better that this happened".  Although these statements are
    probably true - I still have trouble believing them.  A lot of people
    didn't seem to understand that we are mourning the loss of a real
    child - even though no one but us really knew that child.  The people
    who help me the most are those who acknowledge that we lost a "real" child
    and have just been there to talk to or cry with.  Just be a friend.
    
    Terri

    Yes, observant Jews do not give flowers when someone dies.  (I never
    knew why, though... thanks to the noter who explained it).  I suppose
    plants are OK, although in my experience, people always bring food
    after a funeral.  Like gift fruit and cheese baskets or platters of
    things.  This is also practical, as when people are mourning, they're
    not likely to be in the mood to cook.

    There are two times that a miscarriage can sadden a person. 1) When it
    happens, and 2) The persons due date.  Our baby would have been born
    this monthe, the due date was the 8th.  A sympathy card is most
    appropriate.  It shows that there is a realisation of a loss.  They say
    that for some people losing an unborn child can be harder then losing a
    child whose already been born because you will never be able to see or
    hold the child here on earth.  What made it difficult for us is the
    lack of sympathy we recieved from our families and friends.  (My mother
    had 3 miscarriages, and one was at 5 months-my father delivered the
    baby at home)  My mother was one of the least sympathetic people,
    because back then it was not percieved as a baby so she didn't get much
    sympathy.  (Long story)  
    
    Anyway, as the father I tried to support my wife as much as possible,
    athough I have to admit I was confused that I was expected to be the
    strong one, and it wasn't supposed to bother me.  Acknowledge the loss
    and be a friend.
    
    
    Mike

    We had three miscarriages (19, 12, 16 weeks).  While support and 
    sympathy from our parents was needed and welcome, I at least really
    preferred not having distant friends and random acquaintances bring
    up the subject (some did, and I felt it was intrusive).
    
    I was much happier being the person who would decide when I wanted
    to talk about it, and to whom.  I think one of the big shocks of
    a miscarriage is the fact that the control of your life is out of
    your hands, and one of the things you want to do is get some control
    back.
    
    I'm also not so sure about the plant--it's just one more thing to
    take care of.
    
    Ms Manners says the proper thing to do is say "I'm terribly sorry,
    please don't hesitate to call if you need anything," and then go
    away, and let them come to you.  I agree with her.
    
    			-John Bishop

    I had a miscarriage at about 3 months, and while it was upsetting for a
    short time, it was no big deal.  So, I would play it by ear.  Call your
    friend, say your sorry, and hear her out.  Maybe she is very upset, but
    maybe not.  Also, I did like hearing that "I was
    young and would have another" and "it's for the best" etc.  I also
    liked hearing about other people's miscarriages, in fact it seemed
    almost everyone had a miscarriage to tell me about-- friends,
    relatives, little old ladies -- it was nice to realize how common they
    are.

    RE:   Reply 149.2  (mistakingly titled, "exit")
    
    The address for the catalog I mentioned is:
    
    1421 East Wayzata Boulevard
    Suite 40
    Wayzata, MN   55391
    
    Ask for the catalog called, "Publications for Bereaved Parents and
                                 Caregivers"
    
    --Julia

    In the case of a best friend, your own instincts are probably much more
    reliable than anyone's idea of proper protocol.  Silence caused by
    fear-of-saying/doing-the-wrong-thing doubtless causes far more pain
    than saying something slightly wrong.
    
    But, as John says, don't pressure them to poor out their grief.  I
    would suggest interpreting Ms. Manners as indicating a personal letter
    spelling out your sympathy, and inviting them to call at any time.  For
    a closer friend, you could have an equivalent phone call: "You probably
    don't feel up to talking about it yet, but I just couldn't wait to tell
    you how much I am feeling for you . . . call whenever you want . . . "
    and then let them talk if they choose.
    
    But I personally would want to strangle - or worse - anyone who told me
    "it was for the best."
    
    		- Bruce

    
    I miscarried in April at 3 1/2 months. I found that talking about
    it was what helped me, but everyone is different. When someone gave
    me their sympathy and asked how I was doing, I talked about it.
    In your case this wouldn't apply but for others here's some advice:
    If a co-worker has a miscarriage and a lot of people knew she was
    pregnant, spread the word. I got the impression people felt they
    shouldn't say anything and I had people commenting on how small
    I was 2 months after my miscarriage because no one ever told them.
    
    Re .12> I'm glad there's someone else who didn't have a hard time
    handling her miscarriage. I thought there was something wrong with
    me. When people would ask me how I was doing, I was the one saying,
    "Well, it's for the best or it wouldn't have happened..." and "I
    got pregnant the first time I tried so I don't forsee a problem
    getting pregnant again..." I was raised Catholic but am not a regular
    church goer now, but I think my upbringing let me accept the
    miscarriage as easily as I did. I was upset and hurt and wanted
    to know why it happened to me as I wanted that child so much, but
    I've got to go on and look to the future. Sorry I've been so
    long-winded, but maybe I'm still healing and needed to write this.
    
    Just be there and let her talk if she wishes otherwise just be her
    friend as she will need you.
    
    Patty

    My wife and I lost our first baby at 13 weeks on March 6, 1989.
     It is a REAL loss, not just of a baby, but of all the hopes, dreams,
    and plans you have for the future.  There can be a great deal of
    guilt involved, ie, what did we do/not do to make this happen...BUT...
    "it was God's will", "the baby must have been deformed", "was meant
    to be", "it's not your fault"...etc... did not help us anyway. 
    What did help was the caring and true grief of friends, which it
    sounds like you are sharing with your friend.  Yes, definitely,
    send a card and call them, and yes, talk to the father too.
    
    As far as not sending flowers because they are Jewish, I don't know
    the answer to that one, even though I am Jewish...
    
    Good news to share with your friends, although wait till they've
    healed a bit...  As stated earlier in this reply, we miscarried
    on 3-6-89...and on 3-4-90 our beautiful daughter Chelsea was born.
     We left Nashua (NH) Memorial Hospital on 3-6-89 crying and on 3-6-90
    with little Chelsea...

    
    Mark

	I am John Bishop's wife (149.11). I accepted any kind of
	sympathy -- even the awkward kinds -- because I knew that
	people were trying their best to help us feel better.

	I agree with John that I didn't want to talk about the pain
	all the time, but did need to talk about it with close
	friends, especially for the first few months. I also needed
	people who could listen to and help me get through a fair
	amount of anger, which would show up in all forms -- even
	in seemingly unrelated situations.

	I did like getting plants. I still have one of them.
	Something of a living memory -- there were happy moments with
	each baby, and I still like to remember those. 

	Over the long run, I think what helped the most was having
	friends who could also get past the fact that we'd had
	some very sad times, and could relax and help us have fun
	(get out of the house and go on outings, go out to dinner,
	etc.). Some parts of life are never the same again, but
	people need to take a break from sadness and remember that
	they can still be happy.

	Barbara	

    
    
    I found out I was going to have a baby. I was very excited very scared
    and overwhelmed. Three months later I found out the bad news. there was
    no baby I had somthing called a blighted ovem. Three months later I
    found out a was pegnant again this time I was worried. I had an
    ultrasound on the Third month of my pregnancy The baby was kicking and
    its heart was beating I could even see its fingers and its spine. I
    went home and showed everyone my baby pictures of the three month old
    fetus.. this week at Four and a half months along there was no heart
    beat the baby died... along with many hopes and dream. The comforts I
    find are that there are people out there that are concerned and will
    express there feelings. It is very uncomfortable to me when people
    choose to stay away because they do not know what to say. 
    
    								Deanna

Sadly, someone in my group has miscarried.  Can anyone think of an appropriate
US organization we could contribute to in behalf of the baby?

Thanks,

=ss

    When we lost a baby at five months of pregnancy, people made
    contributions to the Remembrance Fund of The March Of Dimes 
    Birth Defects Foundation.  We found it to be a very generous,
    thoughtful gesture.
    
    Terry

RE: .19

To answer my own question, La Leche League referred me to The Compassionate
Friends.  They deal with loss of a child of any age.  There are local chapters
that hold regular meetings and they have literature available.

The national headquarters:

The Compassionate Friends
P.O Box 3696
Oak Brook, IL  60522.3696
708.990.0010