Conference moira::parenting

    Dear anon,
    
    I don't feel that way, and have been blessed with three wonderful
    daughters, but I am amazed at the number of people who thought we were
    trying for a boy with number 3, and who asked if we weren't going to
    continue trying for a boy.  (We weren't trying for number 3 when we got
    her)
    
    I think we get a lot of pressures from others on what the "ideal"
    family makeup should be, and I think it has the potential to influence
    the way we feel when our families dont measure up to this mythical
    ideal.  Grandparents can even put pressure on us because of the idea of
    "carrying on the family name," little realizing that the chances are
    our daughters may keep their names, request that their partners take
    theirs on, or some mixture of names may result which has nothing to do
    with either family name.     
    
    I know it's hard right now, but take some time to be good to yourself. 
    With a child under a year, you still need some recovery time.  You also
    have the disappointment that your ideal family isn't going to
    materialize, and that takes some time to get comfortable with as well.  
    
    Meg

    God has given you two beautiful children to be thankful for.  Work
    through your disappointment and go on to enjoy your daughters for they
    will bring you only pleasure if you have a positive outlook.
    
    You see God took our first daughter during birth 22 years ago and then
    God gave us two more children through adoption.  We left it it his
    hands as to his choice of what we have for children.  He blessed us
    with a girl and boy.  He has a plan for all of us so PLEASE ENJOY your
    two beautiful HEALTHY children.
    

You had something you wanted very badly and now you're trying to come to
grips with the reality that it may never happen.  I view this as a grieving
process for a great loss.  Allow yourself to grieve.  Expect it to take
time.  It's a tough job to cope with grief and the upheaval that a new arrival
brings.  Try to go easy on yourself.

- Deb

    I have three boys and always thought I would have girls!  While I did
    want my third (unplanned) baby to be a girl, as soon as Tim was born I
    knew he was meant to be.  All three of my children are very different
    and special in their own way.  As much as I wanted a girl, I think I
    would have been totally confused about how to care for her after being
    used to boys (but I'm sure I would have learned!)
    
    There are times when I still wish I'd had a girl but then I would have
    had to give up one of the boys and that would be unthinkable now (does
    that make sense?).  I will miss not being "the mother of the bride" and
    the "mother of the new mother" (two areas where I think girls turn more
    to their own moms than their moms-in-law).  But, I can only hope that
    my sons will have the good sense to produce daughters so that I can
    then be the "Grandmother of the Bride", etc.
    
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that your children, regardless of
    their sex, are unique and while I certainly understand the feeling of
    wanting "one of each", there are many positives to having all the same. 
    I see my boys forming bonds with each other which will last a lifetime
    (when they're not trying to kill each other!).  Sisters also have a
    special relationship.
    
    Just concentrate on the fact that you have two healthy children who
    will love you forever.

>    Just concentrate on the fact that you have two healthy children who
>    will love you forever.


Several noters have quoted something similar to this in the responses to
the basenoters problem.  Saying "Be thankful for what you've got" is
likely exactly why she is feeling depressed about it ... 

It is one thing to feel disappointed that you haven't got what you wanted ...
like Santa didn't bring you that game for Christmas, but brought instead,
some fancy socks ... this is something you can work through fairly easily.
Being depressed about it is another matter altogether ...

I suspect that she WANTS to concentrate on and be thankful for her daughters,
but cannot for one reason or another ... and because she cannot, she has become
depressed about it ... so telling her to be thankful for what she has is
like telling her to fix something she feels powerless to do ... which makes
her feel more depressed.

Firstly, feelings of disappointment in this situation are normal.  When
those feelings progress past disappointment or are abnormally prolonged,
then it is time to seek help ... and you have which is good.

Secondly, remember that the sex of your child is NOT because of anything that
you did or did not do.  IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT that you did not have a boy.
The sex of your child is determined for the most part by your partner's sperm.
There are a few things that you and your partner could have done that may
have attempted to alter the chances of a boy, but the change in the odds are
only a matter of a couple percent either way ... and assuming that your
partner has a typical male/female sperm balance, you are only changing
the odds to say 52-48!  Chance still plays a big part!

There is a saying that goes something like this ...

		Grant me the strength to change those things I can
		Grant me the ability to accept those things I cannot change
		Grant me the wisdom to know the difference.

Are there other things going on in your life that this is yet another
disappointment or problem ?  If so, try to look at and deal with each of them 
individually.  They will not have occurred one because of the other ... they 
are all random and independent happenings.  Try to avoid lumping them together.

How does your partner feel about two daughters, and is his reaction having
an impact on you ?  Is he too saying you should be thankful for what you
have ?  Does he understand how you are feeling and accept your feelings, or
is he telling you in essence that you should be denying your feelings ?
("you can't honestly feel like that" ... for example)  The fact is that you
CAN be feeling this way ... and the description as a form of grieving is
accurate ...  Your partner should accept your feelings and support you in 
spite of them.  

Do others in your families make comments that hurt you about not having a
boy ?  If so, politely explain to them that you are having difficulties
yourself accepting that you've not had a boy, and you'd appreciate that they
accept that you've had two girls and KNOCK OFF THE COMMENTS! :-)

If you find that your depression over not having a boy continues for more
than a few weeks more ... or that it starts interfering with your life
(not sleeping ... can't concentrate at work or home ... loss of appetite
or excessive appetite ... carbohydrate cravings that you've not had before
... sudden outbursts of crying etc) please contact EAP ... they have some
counsellors to whom you can talk in confidence ... or talk with your Dr.

If it's any consolation .... I am the the 3rd or 4th generation of my
family where the eldest son had 3 boys and a girl.  I have had 3 girls!
Did I blow what we thought was hereditary or what !!!!!  Yeah ... I was
disappointed ... in fact, before we had the third, I was contemplating
going to the Doctor for a sperm test to determine whether we actually
stood a chance of a boy (because of low male sperm count or motility).
Because if there wasn't a chance, we wouldn't have bothered.  The randomness
of nature and fertile periods won ! We had our third daughter!  I'll
probably always be a little disappointed that we didn't have a boy ...
(a 4th kiddie is out of the question!).  One always has a slight yearning
for what might have been ... it's quite natural.

Remember, while one of each may have been a nice ideal family for you, the
fact that you haven't is NOT IN ANYWAY A FAILURE ON YOUR PART.  You HAVE
NOT FAILED.  Nature may have won ... but you didn't fail ... you did your
part ... and nature, unfortunately, did its.

Take care.

Stuart

    

I wonder how much our image of an "ideal family" is based on our own
experience as children.  I read somewhere once that people tend to space
their own children in the same spacing as their own families growing
up.  Might the same not apply to desired gender distribution?

I have only one sister, and I'd love to have two girls.  I somehow 
fear that I'd have trouble understanding or relating to a little boy.  
Little girls seem so much more intuitive for me to understand.
Maybe I'd feel different if I'd had a brother?

.0, maybe if you understand the source of your feelings/desires, you'll
be able to better cope with the loss you're feeling.

I agree with Stuart, people who are feeling a loss are rarely comforted
by "look at the bright side."  When I've been grieving, I always found 
comfort from people who had either been in the same situation or who
could at least acknowledge the grief I was feeling.

	My husband and I just had the first female born Healey in 100 years.
	There were 27 male Healeys born before Lauren and everybody in
	my husbands family was convinced we would have a boy.  My husband
	was convinced too and we really shocked the clan with our girl.  
	They asked us to double check!!  

	Anyhow, I thought my husband would be disappointed in having a 
	daughter because he always talked about having a son and involving 
	him in sports and other "manly" things like Red Sox games.  Well, 
	now that we have our girl, he is making plans for her to be a future 
	tennis star!  She definately will be a tom boy if her daddy has 
	anything to do with it.  I've told him that even though I'm not
	interested in sports, that was a factor of my upbringing.  I know
	plenty of women who like sports and if Steve involves Lauren from
	a young age, she'll like sports too!  I have no objections to this!

	We plan to have 2 children and with our family history, our odds are 
	pretty good for a boy but I've asked him how he feels about having 
	2 girls.   Yes, he wants a boy, but he realizes now that he can do 
	many of the same things with girls as he can with boys.  However, 
	the way I am about having a girl factors into this.  I'm not the sort
	to dress Lauren up as a little princess who should never get dirty.  
	I want her wearing jeans and getting dirty just like any child should.  
	If I were a mother who always wanted her little girl to look perfect, 
	Steve would have a hard time getting her interested in sports.

	So, what I'm saying is, if either you or your husband thinks that
	you can't do the same things with girls as with boys, then you need
	to change that attitude.  I'm not saying that you should discourage
	your daughters from being girls by giving them GI Joe instead of
	Barbie.  And if she wants dance lessons instead of karate, you
	should not discourage this.  However, you can encourage her interest 
	in activities that are traditionally male as well.  
	
	Talk this over with your husband and try to determine why you
	are so upset about having 2 girls and no boys.  I know that if my
	husband were disappointed in having 2 girls, I'd be upset too
	but because of feeling guilty.  

	One other thing... could you possibly be suffering from post
	partum depression which might make you more depressed over this
	issue than you might normally be?

	Hope I helped!

    
    I can certainly relate to the base noter.  I have 3 boys.  When I was
    pregnant with my 2nd, I was *SO* excited by the prospect of having a
    daughter, that I saw myself getting TOO excited.  I knew that I'd be
    crushed if it turned out to be another boy, so I finally went ahead and
    found out Before I delivered him.  This gave me some time to adjust to
    the fact of another son, and let me concentrate on the positive aspects
    of having multiple children of the same sex.  
    
    They're great friends and buddies, they have lots in common, they can
    hand-me-down clothes/toys etc, I don't have to be concerned about
    splitting their quarters for "sexual" reasons as they get older, plus I
    already knew what to do with a boy.  
    
    But as Jason got older, and I became more sure that 2 was a good number
    of kids, and more reluctant to go through "the baby thing" again, I
    became more and more sad at the loss of my daughter.  I had so many
    hopes and dreams of a baby girl.  I wanted so desperately to have a
    little girl to dress up and make beautiful (boys aren't particularly
    fond of ribbons (-:), I had illusions of making mom/daughter dresses,
    HOW I would break the facts of life, and the "facts of womanhood" to
    her, and all sorts of other things that I envisioned in a
    mother/daughter relationship.  I'm sure that you too had plans for you
    and your son.  As time went on, it became more and more of a loss to
    me.  As I realized that I really would never have a daughter to be Mom
    to, and all I'd have is these loud grubby boys, my heart ached for what
    I felt was rightfully Mine.
    
    I didn't feel like I failed.  I didn't love my boys any less.  I never
    would've traded them.  But I clearly felt ROBBED of what I imagined my
    future with my daughter to be like.  To add to it, I had an abortion
    when I was 17, and my grief brought me to guilt, and I blamed myself
    that that baby was probably my only daughter.  It's a quick downward
    spiral.
    
    My salvation was that we were not *COMPLETELY* adamant that we would
    never EVER want another baby.  There was a remote (VERY remote!)
    possibility that we MIGHT, at some point, consider one more, or
    consider adopting an older (female) child, and that was the hope that
    carried me through those years of sadness and loss.
    
    My husband and I split up, and much to my surprise, a few years later,
    I found myself pregnant with #3.  At first I *REALLY* hoped for a
    daughter.  But this time things felt different for me.  Because now,
    along with the hope and curiosity of raising a daughter, came a lot of
    fear of "HOW will I do THIS?!"  I have 2 boys - I KNOW what to do with
    boys!!  My boyfriend had a daughter, and that was enough to convince me
    that I was MUCH more suited to boys, and perhaps that's why God chose
    for me to only have sons.  Also, my sister had a daughter, and some of
    the things that they went through were *SO* different than what I went
    through with my sons, that it seemed terrifyingly different.  As the
    pregnancy progressed, I changed and **REALLY** wanted another boy!  
    Everyone else hoped I had a girl.  Actually, I got to the point where I
    was getting *SO* stressed out about the thought of raising a daughter,
    that I just HAD to know.  Not that I'd have done anything different or
    loved the baby less, but to give ME time to prepare myself if it was a
    girl - or time to relax if it was a boy.  As I said previously, I have
    3 sons.  His dad was pretty damn upset that it wasn't a girl - he has a
    daughter and a son, and he definitely wanted another daughter.  So it
    *DOES* matter to people - I think a lot more than they let on.
    
    Now that Jonathan is just over 6 months, I'm really enjoying all three
    of them.  They get along *SO* well together (well okay, Chris and Jason
    try to kill each other a few times a day - but they're "only joking"!
    (-:).  Instead of dreaming of the times that I won't get to share with
    a daughter (I had my tubes tied - there ARE no more!) I think and talk
    with my sons about the time we can all spend together as they grow up.  
    And the thoughts and hopes and dreams are just as warm, if not warmer,
    than those I've had of a daughter.
    
    One other thing .... Chris(#1) and I have completely different
    personalities.  Chris is *EXACTLY* like his father, right down to the
    last little annoying trait.  I think we always hope to see some of
    ourselves in our children, and there was clearly NONE of me in my first
    son (still isn't).  He always felt like "his father's son", and I never
    really FELT like I fit in.  This gave me one more reason to yearn for a
    daughter - someone else on "my side", or someone I could teach to be
    like me, and share things with etc etc.  Jason(#2) turns out to be
    COMPLETELY different than Chris.  He is, for the most part, the
    spitting image of me (right down to every last annoying trait!).  He is
    my son, but he's also my buddy.  We connect on a much more basic level
    than I think Chris and I ever will.  I understand most all of his
    moods, and agree with the way he thinks.  I don't always like the way
    he acts, but I DO always understand why.  Chris, I just can't figure
    him out sometimes!!
    
    I think that Jason is what got me over the "I WANT A GIRL!" - having a
    child who is so much like myself, I can only be happy with what I have.
    And Jonathan is such a HAPPY baby (BIG contrast to his brothers), that
    it's impossible to do anything but love him like crazy.
    
    This stuff is all so real .... and so few people think it is.  The
    other part that I found hard was the "sympathy" from "friends".  Oh,
    you had another boy.  That's too bad.  You must feel bad  -or-  don't
    you wish you had a daughter?  Those kind of things I found more
    irritating than helpful.  I WANTED to enjoy my baby, but everyone kept
    reminding me of the loss inside my heart - it was so hard to be so
    split.
    
    But I'm "all better" now, and am delighted with "my three sons", and I
    really wouldn't have it any other way.  And when it all gets to me a
    little, I take my niece for a while, and listen to her whine and get to
    give her back, and am thankful that I've learned to tune out the racket
    of little boys being boys (or bombs, or things crashing together, or
    fighter jets, or whatever they're being...) and I can't UNDERSTAND how
    ANYONE can tune out that whining ....!  (but my sister complains about
    my boys ... hmmmm...)  
    
    It WILL feel better in time, and I think that first of all you have to
    give yourself permission to deal with your loss.  You have to allow
    yourself to feel badly about it all, before you can possibly ever feel
    GOOD about it all.  Seek support wherever you can.  Don't be afraid to
    be blunt with people who hinder instead of help.  And if you can't be
    blunt, then put some time and space in between them and you.  You need
    to take care of YOU!  You can't be of much help to your beautiful
    daughters if you don't allow yourself the space and emotion to get
    through this pain.  Either you eat it, or it eats you .... cry for what
    you miss.  EXPLAIN to your husband all the things you wanted for you
    and your son.  Try to explain it so that it is clearly separate from
    your relationship with your daughters - it IS different. 
    
    When we're pregnant, we form a relationship with our unborn baby.  If
    that baby turns out to be something different than we expected, then
    that relationship is also changed.  If someone expected to have a
    healthy baby, and they dreamed of the things that they and their child
    would do, and then it turned out that the baby was, say, crippled, the
    relationship expectations would change dramatically.  The parent would
    receive help, high and low, to get them through this trying time.  I
    don't see it as being all that different in this case.  You clearly had
    your heart set on a son, and what it would be like.  You got a
    daughter.  A daughter's great - but hey, what happened to "me and my
    boy"?  And no one seems to acknowlege that as a loss.  When it really
    can be a great feeling of loss.
    
    Allow yourself to grieve.  Only after you heal will you be able to make
    the most of the relationships with your other children.  Because your
    little boy was *SO* alive in your heart, and now he's just "gone".  
    
    If you want to talk off-line, please feel free to send mail or call.
    I wish you all the best.  You WILL get through it, if you can allow
    yourself to feel what you feel, and are able to explain it well enough
    to at least one other person close to you.  Don't try to go it all
    alone.  Being a new mom is hard enough - you don't HAVE to be
    superwoman ya know! (-:  
    
    I'm sorry for the loss you feel for your son.
    
    Patty
    

I re-read the base note and I didn't see anythign that indicated the 
noter was the mother; I would assume that from a few of the 
statements/tone, but the writer could be the father.  

    Funny .... I re-read it after my reply and wondered the same thing, but
    then decided from the tone it probably was a Mom.  
    
    Are you a mom or a dad??

    
    This note may not make you feel any better but I just wanted to pass
    along something that someone told me once when I was really excited
    about getting a job a really really longed for:
    
             The only thing worse than NOT getting what you want is
             getting EXACTLY what you want!
    
    The best suggestion that I can make is that you should at least ACT
    like you are not depressed.  Your kids can sense depression or anger or
    other emotions better than adults can.  I have found that by acting
    happy or sad or whatever for a long enough period of time, you slowly
    evolve into that state and it becomes second nature to you.  Force
    yourself to think about the positive aspects of having same sex
    children.  Over time, you will realize that you don't have to act any
    more and you will feel better about your situation.
    
    Phil
     

    
The following is a reply from the anonymous basenoter.  If you wish
to contact the author by mail, please send your message to me and I will
forward it to the anonymous noter.    Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached  unless you request otherwise.

Carol Stolicny, PARENTING co-mod
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Hi,

   I thank you all for giving me enough reasons to go on.  It really touches
   my heart to know that I have a whole big support group to go to when I feel
   depressed or want to have a shoulder to cry.  I am really touched!!!

   To clarify some of the questions raised by some of you -

   I am a MOTHER with these concerns.  (NO FLAMES PLEASE!  I feel that we women
   ask and talk about it more openly than men do.  Correct me if I am wrong.
   Men accept it the way it is even if they are disappointed deep down).

   There have been no changes in the environment other than some people telling
   me - "OH! Another girl!!" "Join the crowd!!"  Some casual comments sometimes
   hurt even if they are not meant to.  I have steeled myself to all these
   comments.  These don't hurt me as much as my own feelings. My husband has
   been very supportive and listens to me really well.  As some of you noted
   I am trying to fight the disappointment of not having a boy.  I am sure I
   would have felt the same disappointment if I had two boys.  Believe me,
   I do not keep a sad face once I get home.  ESPECIALLY when I look at my
   young one.  She is such a charmer with the widest (spontaneous) grin on her
   face.  One look at her and I forget everything.  My only concern was the way
   I was feeling and I was wondering if anybody felt anything similar.	My
   parents side and his parents side both had more girls than boys.  Maybe I
   am fighting the post-partum blues, I don't know.  I could have another one
   if I wanted to except that I might be at risk because of my age and  my
   doctor has advised me not to (for various other reasons).


   Thank you all for listening.  Each and everyone of the notes has given me
   enough reasons to get over the disappointing feeling.

   -ANONYMOUS

"Reason to go on?"  If your depression is that serious, you should at the
very least contact the EAP.  Could it be that post-partum depression is
part of the problem?

    I wonder too if it's not postpartum depression. I have the boy and the
    girl and guess what - I was crying and feeling sad - how could this
    person who they thought couldn't have children, now have one of each
    and be depressed? I thought I was crazy. I mean really crazy and I was
    afraid to tell my family and friends about my feelings until I just
    couldn't take it any longer - I told my Dr. at my eight week check-up
    what was going on and he told me this was quite normal - many women
    experience post partrum depression after the second child - he took
    some test ask some questions and prescribed some medication. I can't
    believe the difference it made. I felt like me again in just three
    weeks - It's now been 3 1/2 months and he has started to reduce the
    amount of the medication I'm taking so within 3 months I'll be off it
    completely. My daughter 5 1/2 months and son 26 months now have a mom
    who feels physically and mentally better. Just something to think about
    - Take care....
    
    
    

    As Gerald mentioned in .13,  I would concur and really recommend that
    you speak with EAP or your Doctor ... and if fact if you were local
    to me, I'd almost nag you until you did!!!  If you are as depressed
    as you sound, then you should talk to a Dr.
    
    There is nothing to be ashamed of in being depressed for whatever
    reason.  It does not carry the stigma that it once did.  In fact many
    Family Doctors, with the help of medication are treating depression in
    their own office without the patient having to see a psychiatrist.
    
    Stuart