Conference moira::parenting

	Given your scenario, I would start to bully the parents. But it in
	a context they can relate to.

	Ah yes - great idea but a very large problem in this case.  You see the
father of the children is a prison guard and owns 2 MAJOR guard dogs and has 
many NASTY weapons of which some of them I have seen. To the tune of being 
automatic.  In any case I live right next door to this biker maniac and his 
"children".  His wife the mother of these children is also very much out of 
control, screaming obsenities in the middle of our middle class neighborhood at
the top of her lungs while he just gets upset and goes into his house and 
punches another hole in the wall.  They let their children stay up until past
midnight even on school nights that is when they have supervision at all.

	The video taping does seem to calm them down a bit but I feel small
retalliation will result in major catastophie for all concerned.  It is a very 
interesting problem of which our entire neighborhood has to deal with. Especially
when it comes down to the children and their ability to interface with the 
other children in the neighborhood.  Ther are lots (about 30 children) in our
immediate locality.

	

We have a similar bully "family" in our neighborhood although no where near
so extreme.  I have told my children that these are irrational people and to
steer as clear of them as possible.  Now if I could only get my husband to
do the same :-)

ccb

    I don't necessarily advocate doing this since it might jeopardize
    your personal safety, but have you considered bringing the police,
    juvenile authorities, and/or children's welfare agency into the
    picture?  I don't know if it's wise, or that it would do any good
    if you did, but it seems like some of the activity you've
    described goes past the ordinary and into the potentially
    criminal.
    
    --bonnie	

    I haven't as yet been confronted with this type of situation. My
    daughter is 9-almost-10. But if it WERE to happen, first thing I'd do
    is march right over to the parents house to explain what happened. If
    the parents did not cooperate, I would say to them that next time
    anything happens I will take them to court. That would probably stop
    them cold right there. I think the majority of people would want to
    avoid a "court scene".   Some people though, as I have witnessed in my
    crammed-with-wierdos neighborhood, don't care what they say, who's
    around to here it and what time it is either. I've been startled out of
    bed by people swearing their heads off and even little kids outside at
    late hours as well. If it doesn't involve me, I just forget it. 
    
    But if anything ever DID involve my child you bet I would go marching
    over there to the other parents house and say a word or two.  

    
    
    My brother had a similar situation with his daughter being harrased by
    two girls (one older and one the same age as my niece).  These girls
    kept harrasing my niece and beating her up.  My brother talked to to
    the girls parents and asked them if they could speak with their kids.
    He also discussed this with his DSS Social worker to see what she had
    to say and she told my brother to try and keep my niece away from these
    girls.  But this was hard for him to do since they all lived in the
    same comlex.  All this finally came to and abrupt end when one of
    the girls started to harras my niece and my niece retaliated and
    punched the girl in the face and gave her a black eye.  The girl ran
    and told her mom and her mom called the police and the juvinial officer
    came down and they had to go to court to streighten this out.  The
    girls haven't picked at my niece since the court happenings.  But maybe
    the base noter should call the police and tell them about her situation
    and maybe the junvinile officer can be of some help to her.
    
    Liz
    

    Co-opt the kids.

    They are no doubt very, very unhappy kids to be living in the family
    situation that you describe. They act out their frustrations on your
    son. I know this is radical, but, could you get only one of them to go
    with you and your son to get an ice cream, go to a video game arcade or
    something? Maybe one forward step on you and your sons part would be
    really welcomed by the kid(s). I would think that dealing with just
    one, maybe the younger one first could start the whole thing off right.
    Or, include other parents/kids in the neighborhood in some activity
    that would open the kids up to a different world and different ways to
    handle their problems.

    I always felt very sorry for bullies, and would approach them with
    friendship time after time, till they crack.
    
    JR
                          

	I have done exactly that.  You see in my neighborhood, I am the Franklin
Street hero.  I have a great basketball court which all the children in the 
neighborhood use and we own a two seater go-kart.  There is  a large field
directly behind my house in which I give rides to ALL the children in our area.

	They all have to wear seat belts and goggles and helmets but I let them
all ride it.  The older ones go through a LICENSE test and if they pass they can
ride by themselves with me as the supervisor.  So you see I do have a weapon of
sorts.  I will throw the children out and not let them ride the go-kart if they
disobey the go-kart rules, but the bully children understand this and do not
break the rules for the go-kart.  I have not yet used the go-kart or lack thereof
against these children.  I am reserving this as well as banishment from the yard
for any further infractions.

	I do want our neighborhood to be a harmonious one and I am trying to use
as much friendship and kindness as I can.  It does seem to work.  I personally
think that the root cause is jealousy.  These bully children do not have a good
home life and see a set of very involved parents playing with their children and
having lots of fun together and probably want to interfere with this harmony.

	This is my only cut at what the root cause is.  The way the situation
works is: started by the younger child who will throw rocks at my son or steal 
his bike or basically antagonize him until he gets mad enough to confront the
instigator.  When he does confront the boy his older brother steps in to beat my
son up.  This is what I videotaped.  This situation never changes except if the
younger boy aggravates my daughter to the point where my son steps in.  
Separating the children seems to work as well as the appearance of any adult.
There is another thing and that is this situation only occurs when the bully
children are left to themselves and never when the bully children's parents are
home.

	I did have an occasion to do a project with just the younger boy once
for a period of over an hour.  We worked rather well together and things were
going fine in building a fort which the whole neighborhood's children were in-
volved in.  Most of the children left for some reason leaving me alone with this
bully and after a long silence he turned to me and said "You know my Daddy can
beat you up".  I turned to the boy and looked him straight into the eye and said,
"I would rather have a beer or two and share a nice talk with your Dad" and then
I went back to working on the fort.  He immediately left.  I guess I overdosed
him on kindness. Sorry.

I think I would use the go-kart as the reward for acceptible behavior.  It
belongs to you and you can decide that you don't want to share with someone
who acts the way this kid does.

I would be really clear with him about it.  Tell him that as long as he plays
nicely with *all* the kids in the neighborhood, he can have his turn.  But if
he beats up or bullies *any* kid, he loses go-kart priviledges for a week.

You're stepping into the role of parent for the kid, setting limits, but since
he seems to accept your rules on the go-kart already, he may be relieved that 
you are willing to do it.

Pat

    re: 296.8

    Wonderful, you really have been a saint! I was disturbed by the general
    point of most of the replies, so added my voice. This reply, outlining
    your efforts, gives a much more balanced view of the situation.

    I agree that jealousy is part of the problem - this however is one
    tough nut to crack, there really is no way to influence the experience
    these kids are having a majority of the time - their home life.

    So, you mention the technique is working, some - are there some next steps
    that can be planned with other cooperative parents?

    Excellent, creative reply to the kids comment about his Dad. Very sad,
    really, for him. I wish I could think that fast, I always think of the
    perfect thing to say two days later!

    At this point, I would also agree with a previous reply that suggested
    contacting some appropriate agency, or church that could help this family.
    Don't know how I would weigh the pros and cons of this decision.

    I'm not experienced with a situation like this yet, I can only relate
    to a playmate my four year old son had - a very unhappy little boy. I
    did tell my son that I thought that some of his behavior was caused by
    his unhappiness. I was lucky and it did focus my son into modifying some
    of his behavior to increase his friend's self esteem.

    Your setting a great example for your children by your behavior, have
    you shared with them, at the appropriate level, your thinking and
    goals? Explaining the other kid's situation for what it is?

    JR 
                                        

    If the family situation is as bad as you describe, your own
    efforts, as wonderful as they are, may not be enough.  I suspect
    the kids are in need of professional help for an abusive home
    situation... 
    
    --bonnie