Conference moira::naturism

    Not being a Christian, I don't have a personal answer to this
    question, and I don't want to preempt anyone who does. 
    
    I would like to mention that the compatibility of naturism and
    Biblical teachings is a subject that has gotten some discussion in
    naturist circles.  In fact, I think a good chunk of one issue of CwS
    was devoted to naturism and religion, and there have been a number
    of other articles devoted to the sort of "proof by quoting chapter
    and verse" (both ways, of course) that some people love to engage
    in.
    
    Jim Cunningham has consistently made a strong argument for nudity
    from a Catholic standpoint, including having published Divine
    Reflections, a Christian/Nudist magazine. (See my review of his
    magazine Clothing-Optional Life in note 40.) 
    
    Also, Cedar Waters, a nudist camp that we frequent, is owned and run
    by a family with very strong fundamentalist Christian principles.
    (See the latest issue of CwS for a photo of their billboard with a
    "Robertson for President" banner attached to it from last spring's
    primary campaign.)
    
    So, there are certainly some people for whom naturism is not
    inconsistent with, and may even be mandated by, a more-or-less
    traditional, "fundamentalist" Christianity.
    
    	-Neil

    Neil, thanks for the response. I was hesitant to bring up the question
    for the fear of being misunderstood but I see I got my meaning across.
    It was do to your title (Some people have no trouble combining them)
    that I posed the question.
    
    I'm at CXO and if anyone here has a copy of the CwS that Neil referred
    to in .1 could I borrow it? Thanks.
    
    dean
    

Dean,  I'm also at CXO and subscribe to CwS.  If I can remember, I'll bring it
in tomorrow (unless Bob isn't done reading it!).  I'm a "space cadet" right 
now, getting ready to take vacation for a week, so I may not remember.  You 
may have to wait until I return on the 10th of Oct.  I work in Eng Repro, down-
stairs from you (unless you've moved to CXN!), so it would not be difficult to 
get it to you.

I'll give you a call when I bring it in.

Judy

	Interesting to note that according to the book of Genesis, Adam
and Eve didn't feel any shame in their nakedness until after they had
eaten of the fruit they had been warned against.  It was them trying
to conceal their bodies that tipped God off that they had done the deed.

	Another semi-related thought is that St. Francis of Assisi was
known to have shed every last article of clothing on numerous occassions,
once to symbolize his spiritual birth, and most frequently to give away
his clothing to someone more in need of it than he.

Richard

    I've heard it said that the first bookkeepers were Adam and
    Eve; that they invented the "loose-leaf" system!
    
    ;-)
    Richard

    It is obvious that nudism is highly offensive to many people holding
    what would be categorized as "fundamentalist Christian" beliefs.  I
    suspect that there are two completely independent factors here. 

    There are some theological arguments, pro and con, about nudity:

        There is one traditional view that everything having to do with the
        world and the flesh is tainted, and that only the spirit is pure.
	This view leads to suspicion, suppression, and concealment of the
	body.

        There is another view that God made man in His own image, so that
        it is blasphemous to assert that man's body is indecent and should
        be concealed, since it is tantamount to asserting the indecency of
        God's own image.

        Being neither a Christian nor a theologian myself, I won't presume
        to try and get any deeper into these issues.  

        There is also an argument that the naked body isn't indecent in
        itself, but that nakedness should be hidden because it will tempt
        people to lust and to sexual thoughts and actions.  (I would assert
        that this particular argument is clearly false.  It must be based
        on the imaginings of someone who hasn't experienced how basically
        asexual familiar social nudity really is.) 

    But much more important, I think, is the common feeling that nudity is
    *intrinsically* nasty. This really isn't a religious view at all.  It's
    a personal and cultural prejudice.  I believe that it arises from a
    fundamental misunderstanding of what nudism is about.  It is easy to
    understand how someone who hasn't experienced a nude beach or nudist
    club could have misconceptions that would lead him or her to classify
    nudism as a vice along with free sex, drugs, and violent rock music.  I
    cannot believe that anyone with an open mind could hold that view after
    such an experience. 

	-Neil
                                         

    re .-1
    
    I agree - the major problem is that few folks have an open
    mind and most react based upon conditioned responses.
    
    Conditioned responses are key to survival of all species,
    it is difficult to override these responses with "reason".
    
    Such changes do occur but they seem to require either a dramatic
    force or lots of time.
    
    - Gerry

    Yes I'm a Bible-believing Christian - a Lutheran to be exact.
    
    I believe that an analogy may help: many people miss-quote the Bible
    to indicate that money is evil. The actual quote of course is that
    *love* of money is evil.
    
    In the case of nudity, the only reference I can think of is to the
    expulsion of Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden: The Lord made them
    aware that they were naked as a punishment for their sin, and they
    clothed themselves with fig leaves.
    
    The problem isn't nudity: it is an awareness of nudity. Nor is nudity
    a sin - the *awareness* of our nudity is a reminder of our Original Sin.
    
    In practicing naturism/nudism we may be aware of our nudity - certainly
    initially many of us are not only aware, but embarassed by it. That
    is in accord with the teaching of the Bible. However the Bible does
    not say we will remain aware of it, nor does it say nudity is sinful.
                                   
    We were all cast out of Eden, and we are all aware of our nudity.
    We need clothes for protection from the cold in northern or southern
    latitudes, and for protection from the sun in tropical climes. We
    need clothes for protection from being burned when cooking, or to
    protect our skin when doing dangerous things such as climbing. More
    to the point we need clothing to protect us from the censure of
    a textile world that reminds us daily that we no longer inhabit
    an Eden where we can joyously, and freely, go about our pursuits
    at leisure.
    
    /. Ian .\

    In peaceful deference to Ian, I am a Witch, Initiate and Pagan Priest
    of the Goddess. Yes 'tis true. B^)
    
    Nudity is part and parcel of our religious view because it symbolizes
    truth. We are what our bodies are and that's ok.
                       
    We don't subscribe to an origial sin theology. Sin is not a
    consideration for us at all. 
    
    There isn't much to say because it such an integral part of what
    most of us do.

    
    May Brigid, Both One and Three smile on you.
    
    I was with Wic'ca before I found Christianity. There are those who
    say that "Original Sin" was a phrase invented by medieval theologians
    to be a euphemism for "Forbidden Knowledge", and that the knowledge
    that was forbiden was of the Triad of which the Goddess is both
    part and all. Wic'ca preaches, and is, a oneness with nature and
    all humanity, a state of grace symbolised by Adam & Eve before the
    fall. There are also those who say that the Triad of Wic'ca and
    the Holy Trinity of Chritianity are in effect the Yin and the Yang,
    the male and female essence, of one and the same thing, and that
    true light is in unifying the two. Who knows? Anyway I am sure this
    is a debate that should be followed off line.
    
    May Brigid Smile on you and guide you along the Right Hand Path.
    
    /. S�an Eaoin .\            
    
    aka 
    
    /. Ian .\

    Whoa . . .
    
    I believe I've heard some of this mentioned by Joseph Campbell
    ( author of "The Power of Myth" ). The Earth Goddess predates most of
    the other religions by quite alot. I wasn't aware some of it existed
    still. Most of the earliest religious artifacts have female form.
    I wasn't aware that nudity was an important part in it. Does it entail
    some form of nude ritual?
    
    I only ask because different religions interest me.
    
    						Thanks,
    							John.

    TO 115.1
    I am a born again Cristian and do practice solitary naturism.
    All things flesh or foul are permitid unless it causes a brother to
    fall. If you can go natural and be perfictly at ease no matter who
    you should meet, than you will not stumble. Only the spirit needs to be
    clothed by ritchousness (excuse the spelling) the body is only flesh.