Conference misery::feline

    Okay, all notes have been moved to their new location.  Maybe Deb will
    give us an update when she gets her new boxes installed.
    
    Jan

    Well, it still hasn't arrived. I had been told on Aug 7 that it would
    arrive in 10 days. I called customer service and it was shipped UPS on
    Monday (19-Aug). They said I should get it by the middle of next week.
    
    Given how long I am waiting for this, I sure hope I'm not disappointed.
    
    Deb

    I use a mat of astro turf (green spiky plastic) underneath my litter
    box.  When my 2 cats jump out, they walk on the astro turf and it seems
    to grab any litter from their paws.  The mat can be vacuumed, shaken,
    or hosed down for cleaning, and although it is ugly, it does a nice
    job.  These mats are not expensive - maybe $5 at HQ or Home Depot. 
    Hope this helps.

    The litter boxes wre delivered yesterday. Unfortunatly, the extra
    refill boxes weren't. I presume that they were sent in a seperate
    box, and might arrive today or monday. 
    
    Also, someone asked about this before. There is a big note on that
    says it MUST be used only with premium clumping/scoopable litter.
    
    Anyhow, it was very easy to set up. I just put in litter up to a line
    (only about an inch of litter), plugged it in and set the switch to 
    "on-alarm". The first time it was turned on, the "comb" combed thru the 
    litter from one side to the other. It moved along a little track on the 
    sides of the boxes, and when it got to the end, the track went up,
    pushing the edge of the cover on the container, opening the cover and
    droping any solids into the container( I had put a couple of drops of water
    into the litter to see how this worked). After dropping it off, it moved
    backward to it's starting place.
    
    Overall, it is about the size of a jumbo litterbox, but the area for
    litter seems smaller than a regular pan; Since a couple of my boys are
    bruisers, this is a bit of a concern to me, but Kostas was able to get
    in and out and use it without a problem.
    
    It has three settings, off, on, on-alarm. on-alarm beeps continuosly
    when the batteries (if you use it in that mode) are low or when the
    container is full, AND whenever the comb starts up. I got up in the
    middle of the night to turn it from on-alarm to on. It sounds like 
    heavy equiptment backing up. And I should point out, when the comb
    moved, it is a bit loud. The comb begins cleaning the box 10 minutes
    after it last senced that a cat left.
    
    It seems to work pretty well, but there have been some glitches
    allready. First, the plastic container seems to be a cheep plastic
    container with a hinged lid. The there are two holes on the lid that are
    supposed to allow you to snap it to the cover of the litermate. When I
    got up to change it from on-alarm to on, I found that the holes had worn
    too big, and thus the waste was being dumped between the conatiner lid and
    the littermate's cover. So, I've scotch taped these togeather and that 
    seemed to hold thru the time I left for work.
    
    Next,  the electric eye sensor is in the front of the box; The FIRM
    seemed to like to exit over the side. I've fixed this by putting the box
    between the bathroom sink vanity and the hamper, which will force them
    to use only one exit/entrance.
    
    
    Then there are the problems of the clumping in the comb. One of the cats
    urinated onto litter near the comb, which caused the litter to form a
    clump on the comb. When it went to the waste contianer, not all of it
    fell off, but by the return trip back, it did, and was scooped up in a 
    subsequent trip.
    
    The only real problem I experienced was when someone urinated right at
    the front edge. When the comb started up, it couldn't get past that big
    clump. It returned to it's starting place, and tried again. and again.
    It seemed to be in an infinite loop, and was very determined that it
    was going to complete it's mission. I got up and moved the clump with
    a litterbox scoop; I really just moved it a bit. The next pass thru
    the comb got it. This might have been my fault since I think I
    overfilled the box a bit. I'm concerned that if this happens when I'm
    not there, the motor could burn itself out. This leads me to beleive
    that the key to operating this is to not have a lot of litter in the
    box, which could be a problem since my boys really like to dig.
    
    Well, those are the fist impressions. I'm estatic that the FIRM has
    used it inspite of the fact that there is a different litter in there.
    
    Deb

So, Deb,
Now that you've had it (them) for a week or so, what are 
your comments?


kathy

    Hi Kathy,

    It is working out real well. I honestly believe that these boxes are 
    making a real difference in the , uh, air quality of my house.

    I've found that what they said about premium scoopable litter is really
    true. I using ScoopAway upstairs, and Cat's Pride (a less expensive litter)
    downstairs. Little clumps seem to break off the big clump and if they
    aren't large enough they don't get scooped up the next time. This seems
    to be a real problem down stairs, but not upstairs. So, it looks like I
    have to make sure that I get a top-of-the-line litter. I noticed
    something in the supermarket this weekend that claimed to be "solid
    clumping", and I think that we are going to try that next week. 

    I would say that one or two times a day I run the litter box scoop thru
    the box for these small particles, and in case there are any large
    clumps stuck to the bottom of the litter box or in the teeth of the
    comb. (Because of the small size of the litter pan, and the uh, large
    size of several of my cats, often urine will go right on the comb,
    which will then travel thru the litter and form a clump into the combs
    teeth; I don't think this would happen as frequently if the pan was a
    bit bigger) 

    I find that I have to empty the box that the waste is dumped into
    every other day, which isn't too bad considering I have 8 cats. I did
    make the mistake of rinsing one wastebox out with water, only to have
    things turn to cement (I won't make that mistake again).

    We do have a problem with scatter and tracking, but I kind of expected
    that.

    Probably the biggest problem is that several of the cats are
    infatuated with the fact that the box starts up by itself. Zoe and
    Harry have figured out that a cat going into the box will somehow
    trigger the comb a few minutes after. Zoe has figured out where the
    electric eyes are, and puts her paws over them for a few seconds and
    then sits there and waits for it to clean the box. Harry waits after he
    goes to make sure that it is cleaned up. I have actually observed both
    of these cats urinating, waiting until it is combed out and then going
    back in immediately and defecating. I guess this can be attributed to
    cats liking a clean box. Billy and Arty seemed a bit afraid of it (they
    would use it, but would take off when it started up), but now they are
    timidly checking it out when it starts up. The other cats don't seem to
    be concerned one way or the other.

    One other "problem" is that it is pretty loud. It has woken me up at
    night, but beauty sleep is a small price to pay for not having to clean
    the litterbox every few minutes.

    Overall, I'm very happy with them. I'm considering writing to the
    manufacturer to tell them how much I like the product, but that they
    need to make the motor quieter, and the area that the cat uses larger.
    
    Deb

    One thing for everyone to think about.  Output is definately determined
    by the quality of input.  If you feed a high quality food, the stool is
    most definately better (smaller).  It all has to do with absorption. 
    If you feed crap, it just goes through!  (not to mention the health
    benefits of a premium food)  You CANNOT at this point in time purchase
    this type of food at the grocery store.  I don't care what the label
    says.  Read the ingredients and compare.
    Karen

    >most definately better (smaller).  It all has to do with absorption.

    We aren't having any "stool consistency problems" (to put it delicately),
    but when I read this, something paradoxical came to my mind. We humans are
    being told to eat more fiber to reduce cancer and other problems, yet the
    premium foods which are supposed to be better for the animals (and I agree
    that they are fine foods) use less fiber/indigestible material which is
    why there is less deposited in the litterbox. Why is fiber good for
    humans but not for pets? 

    I'm not arguing here; this is just a random thot that came into my
    mind.
    
    Deb

    Probably has to do with the much much shorter length of a carnivore's
    intestines compared to humans.  Theirs is shorter so that they don't
    keep meat and it's toxic breakdowns in their systems for a long period
    of time.  I don't think they can absorb/digest lots of fiber all that well.
    
    Gita

    I don't get it, I have one cat that I have to give fiber tablets.
    During the last visit, he said she was bloated and I should increase
    her fiber intake. Ya, how?  He gave me a bottle of stool softners, with
    the instructions to give them to her twice a day. Sure, I'd be in the
    emergency room with gashes all over me.  I could never pill this cat.
    I decided to give her what she likes, Femalt, and lots of it, no chance
    of loose stools here, if she was blocked then let 'er rip I figured.
    She loves the stuff so there's no problem giving it to her. I found 
    some fiber tablets at Petsmart and purchased them, she maybe had 6 of
    them and then decided that's enuf.  (2 per day)  Basically the stuff is
    tablet form Metamucil, told the vet about it and he wanted the name of
    the stuff, he needed it for some other older cats that wouldn't take
    fiber whatever way he had recommended.  I think Sneeze is just prone to
    minor blockages once in a while.  Once or twice a week I just give her
    Femalt.

    I solve the fiber problems with Science Diet Lite Maintenance.  It's
    very high in fiber.  
    
    Now that SD has come out with a Senior food I'm having a dilema.  At 
    least one of my cats that qualifies for Senior food has chronic
    colitis.  It is control with SD Lite.  Unfortunately, the Senior food 
    has less than 1/2 the fiber of the Lite (if I remember the numbers
    right).  So, they're staying on the Lite stuff for now.
       
    Jan

    
    There's some discussion of cats' dietary requirements in the book "The
    Tribe of Tiger".  I don't know how well founded it is, but the author
    basically says cats need to eat meat, they are "obligate carnivores"
    (unlike humans, who are omnivores), and their digestive systems are
    set up that way (i.e., very differently from ours).  Meat is
    "unnatural" food for humans, our evolutionary forebears were
    vegetarians, and though we can eat meat, it's not what our digestiuve
    systems are really designed for, hence the need for fiber.  While some
    cats with digestive problems might need fiber, it's not what their
    digestive systems are designed for.
    
    len.
      

    RE: .44
    
    My late Argus was prone to constipation. I used to mix a spoon of bran
    into his wet food to keep him "regular".
    
    Deb

    A carnivore in nature usually eats the whole animal, including the
    contents of it's stomach.  So a carnivore in nature does, indeed,
    eat some vegetable matter.  At least this is my understanding.  To
    just feed the meat of the animal probably isn't sufficient.
    
    My Ryan also needs more fiber in his diet than many cat foods can
    provide.  He's prone to blockage of his anal glands, so my vet has
    me add fiber to his diet and I feed one of the higher fiber foods.
    It's been very frustrating though, to find that Science Diet Senior
    has less fiber then the Light, which I was feeding him.  But the 
    Senior is recommended for cats over 6 and he's nearly 7 now.  Sigh.
    And since Tenzing is closing in on 14, I'm compromising by mixing
    the Senior and Light together.
    
    By the way, Ryan loves broccoli.  The vet said I should let him eat
    as much as he wants, since his craving for it probably indicates that
    he's lacking the fiber he needs.
    
    Karen.

    My Kostas likes broccolli as well as a lot of other veggies. I've
    actually seen him choose string beans over fish, and he is a royal pain
    when I try to freeze garden produce.
    
    Anyhow,  he is a, er,  large cat, also tends to get constipated. I had
    thoat that he just enjoyed th edifferent textures of the food, but
    maybe his body is craving fiber to help keep him "regular".
    
    Deb

    Before my cats went on WD, which is high in fiber, the vet had me
    mixing a little Metamucil into Sweetie's canned food.  I bought the
    unflavored kind, not the citrus flavored kind.  I don't remember the
    amount per feeding, maybe 1/8 teaspoon - it was not a lot.  Before
    anyone tries this, I suggest they doublecheck the amount with their
    vet.
      

>     A carnivore in nature usually eats the whole animal, including the
>     contents of it's stomach.  So a carnivore in nature does, indeed,
>     eat some vegetable matter.

	What if the canivore feeds only on other carnivores? :-)

    
    re .48, .51 - it may indeed be the case that cats frequently if
    inadvertantly eat some vegetable matter while consuming meat, but the
    fact of the matter is obligate carnivores do not hunt plants, and did
    not develop their formidable predatory skills to catch vegetables.
    
    Their digestive systems are designed to process raw meat.  They sleep
    as much as they do to replenish their energy for the hunt, for most of
    their hunts are failures, and they must hunt (meat) to eat, and must
    eat (meat) to live.
    
    len.
     

>What if the canivore feeds only on other carnivores? :-)


Very few animals actually kill carnivores to eat them, 
omnivores maybe but carnivores are apparently foul tasting, 
hence even in societies that eat dogs, cats are usually 
safe. 

>it may indeed be the case that cats frequently if
>    inadvertantly eat some vegetable matter while consuming meat, 

Not to mention feathers bones and claws, they've got to have
fibre in them surely....