Conference misery::feline

    I lost my Eirene to kidney failure, and it was heart breaking. I keep
    thinking that if I would have had that kind of warning, maybe I'd still
    have her.
    
    Someone I used to work with had the same luck you did, that is, he found
    out his cat was loosing kidney function when some routine pre-dental blood
    tests pointed it out. He used to make a special low protien diet for the
    cat, and the cat lived another 11 years. 
    
    Put the cat on the K/D. It isn't that expensive in the long run, and it
    will prolong your cat's life.
    
    Deb

    Having two kitties with kidney problems in the past...we
    were also requested to use a low protein diet and the vets
    will ALWAYS recommend the KD because it is the best.  Not
    only does it have lower protein...BUT it also lacks dies
    and other stuff that supermarket brands add to their foods.
    WELL..it both my cases I had cats that would NOT touch the
    KD, so after discussing this with my vet, we agreed to try
    and look for foods that had a low protein of as least 9%.
    There are many brands....Kalkan Optimum has the best variety,
    (and my cats loved it) Friskies have a few flavors...and Sheba 
    does too!!!
    
    Regarding your other problem....have you looked outside lately!!
    Could it be that there are new kitties around that your not
    aware of???  I CAN guarentee it is the beginning of kitten
    season and all the TOM's are out on the prowl.  My darn
    porch smells like there was a "spraying" contest between
    all the strays and my own cats are going nuts!!!   Maybe 
    that is what is triggering Rascal.. and maybe it has nothing 
    to do with the vet visit.  
    
    Sandy

    
    Most cats seem to detest KD.
    
    I have read someplace that it is less the quantity of protein in the
    diet than the quality of the protein.  The assumption that high protein
    diets are the cause of kidney failure in cats is apparently just that,
    an untested assumption.  Worse, cats require higher protein diets
    because of their biology. 
    
    Try putting Merlin on a diet of chicken, lamb or veal.  Stay away from
    beef and fish.  It's not hard to find readily available cat food with
    8% protein content - as Sandy recommends, KalKan Optimum is a good
    choice.  But it's more important that he eat, dehydration will put more
    stress on his kidneys than the "wrong" kind of food.
    
    Lastly, keep in mind that some cats' kidneys fail more easily than
    others.  *IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT*.  Well cared for cats live a lot longer
    than ferals, and we know surprisingly little about cats and their
    biology as they approach advanced age; until recently, there just
    weren't very many of them!
    
    len.
    
    
    

    Whatever you feed your kitty, I would clear it with the vet first
    to be sure it is okay.  I thought I heard that there was
    some flavor additive that could be added to KD as well...  Some
    cats hate dry KD but like canned KD. It's good that this has been
    caught so early.
    
    As to the uproar, besides the previous suggestions, my cats often
    wig out for a couple of days after one has been to the vet, because
    of  the smells.  Sometimes when cats do this, it tends to escalate
    instead of calm down, so that may be what's going on here in their
    tiny ;-) little brains.  I would try the normal new cat introduction
    tips, like being very mellow, not rewarding aggression with
    "attention", petting them both at once, etc.  and not worrying too much
    -- they'll pick up on your mood, both positive and negative.
    
    

    I had a sort of similar problem. Many years ago, my 200 pound Dane went
    nuts and started after my 32 pound mutt, who wanted him dead for
    disturbing her peace. After a couple of days of this I dragged them
    both off to the vet. Turns out the mutt had a tiny little abrasion on
    her leg that was starting to get infected. Apparently the smell was
    setting him off. Once she was on antibiotics, it stopped. Maybe the
    kidney problem is giving Merlin a different smell?
    
    I won't go into the joys of living in a 3 room house with 232 pounds of 
    bouncing, pouncing, snarling dogs racing all over the furniture.
    
    Sari
    Sari 

    Last November I took in a 10 yr. old male with kidney disease.  My vet
    provides me with KD dry and canned for him.  I brought the case of
    canned KD back because he absolutely won't touch it, but he will eat a
    little of the dry food.  I add a small amount of the canned food I
    usually get for my other cats.  He likes this and eats with gusto! 
    Also, I have to make sure there's lots of fresh water for him.  He
    drinks constantly (when he's not sleeping) and this seems to keep his
    system flushed out.
    
    Just to be on the safe side, I started buying a low protein dry food
    for my other cats in the event he decides to eat from their dishes.
    
    I've never experienced a cat with kidney disease before, so I don't
    know how long they can survive.  The cat I have seems to be doing fine. 
    I just watch him very closely and also have begun taking him to the
    vets twice a week for fluids.  
    
    Good luck with your kitty.
    
    Donna
    

    Donna...
    
    With good care a kitty can live many years with kidney problems!!
    Why don't you learn to do fluids yourself???  I know this sounds
    terrible, but I am a person WHO faints when I see needles,,,,,
    but I learned how to do it with very little problems.  
    
    Sandy

    Thanks for the replies so far....
    
    When I first put in the questions, the psycho kittie issue seemed the
    most important, now I'm a little rattled about the kidney/liver stuff.
    The vet said it wasn't high enough to worry about, but you guys have
    given me a lot more to think about. And probably to request another
    meeting with the vet for more details.
    
    I think the vet did rattle off some numbers for the liver/kidney
    functions, but at that point the brain was still stuck between
    "slightly elevated kidney and liver...but there's nothing to worry
    about" and not really taking the rest in.
    
    What's normal? What's high? and more simplistic,  what are we talking
    about here? I'll look through these notes files when I'm back in the
    office (on a faster line) to see what's already been entered in other
    notes, too.
    
    About psycho kitty... there may be some wound on Merlin, since he did
    have blood drawn, I'll check that out. At the moment, I don't think
    it's any outside influence, but just an escalation as mentioned in .4
    by Karen. Tonight I tried the "drug 'em" method with catnip. Bought 
    new box, got them both extremely mellow. They stayed in the same room
    for a while, but rascal still "wigged out" (like the term) after a
    while. But I think Merlin's reaction but running off is encouraging
    rascal. Tonight, while under the influence, Merlin held his ground and
    rascal backed off.  so - using a combo of catnip and the "introduce a
    new kitty" method, or as I call it - supervised playtime - we'll have
    to see how things go. And I must admit, I've been going crazy when they
    go crazy, so maybe I'll try some of the catnip too!
    
    re:5 - 232 lbs racing through the house - yee gads! It's bad enough
    when the two 12lb cats go charging!
    
    thanks for all the help so far and keep those suggestions coming!
    
    janetb. 

    
    
    	Ditto Sandy's reply.  I have to do it for Chloe.  Though I will
    	admit, her constant peeing on the floor is REALLY beginning to
    	get to me.  And I'm really concerned about where she'll go in
    	the new apt.  (it's carpeted in three of the rooms)
    
    	Interesting that people in here say most cats hate K/D.  Chloe
    	loves it (both dry and wet) and Sasha and Audrey will push
    	her out of the way at any opportunity to get to her food.
    	(until Mom catches them.  =)   )
    
    	As Len said, every kitty is different.  My vet said Chloe
    	could last 2 months, 2 years or longer, after being diagnosed -
    	and I think that was around a year ago.  Other than the peeing
    	where she's not supposed to, she's a very normal kitty-monster.
    
    	Good luck.
    
    	JJ
    

    I noticed Dr Foster&Smith catalog had a pair of "stud pants" for cats
    that they were selling. I wonder if you could use something like that
    for Chloe?
    
    Deb

    And oh...they got some darn cute Stud pants too!!!  I was 
    thinking of getting Capone (kitty with nerve damage) a pair,
    ,,but I just can't imagine this scar face big brut of a kitty
    wearing these pretty pants.  As well as...I know he would
    tear them to shreds!!!!
    
    Sandy

    
    
    	Deb,
    
    	Can you elaborate?  Are they like diapers for kitties or
    	something?  At this point I'll try anything, I'm so angry.
    	(not at Chloe but the situation)  I'm moving on Saturday.
    	The landlord of the current place I live asked if they could
    	show the apt. while I'm still living there.  Seeing as they
    	let me out of my lease early, I said sure, as long as it's only
    	done when I can be there (so I can clean up any Chloe puddles
    	before they arrive).  That was fine up until today.  They're
    	set on getting someone in there for April first so they've been
    	showing the place non-stop, and not giving me 24 hrs notice for
    	at least half of the appts.  Well yesterday she tells me she
    	*has* to get in there during the day today to show the apt.  Not
    	happy, but I agree and figure I'll just board Chloe for the day,
    	it's only $6.   Well, turns out Chloe needed a vaccination and 
    	they'll only board if the animals are up to date on them.  So 
    	now, what was only going to cost me $6, is going to cost me $40
    	because the people that own my building are too disorganized and
    	too damned impatient that they can't wait till I get home tonite
    	to show the apt.
    
    	I can't *wait* to get out of there.
    
    	Thanks.......  I needed to vent.  =)
    
    	JJ
    

	Creatin (sp?) and BUN levels are the big two that I remember
	when Sabrina had her kidney problems diagnosed.  I forget what
	values were considered "normal".  But Sabrina's numbers
	were very abnormal and she needed fluid therapy twice to bring 
	them to an acceptable (but still elevated) level.  She eats 
	just K/D now and is doing fine.   

	I remember the vet saying that she will probably make it to 
	old age fine, but maybe not as old as others and that kidney 
	deterioration will likely be the disease that gets her.

	Ask your vet about those numbers.

	Re K/D dry:  Sabrina tolerates it but prefers her sister's bowl
	of Max Lite.  Her sister (a chowhound) loves Sabrina's K/D.

	The grass is always greener...  

    Re: .12
    
    Judy, Chloe may be peeing because all the strange people
    coming thru the apartment are stressing her out.
    

    When the vet says the kitty should be fed a food which is low in
    protein - what percentage is low?
    
    I've been looking at canned and dry food.
    	Canned food seems to be anywhere from 9%-11% protein
    	Dried food seems to be anywhere from 27% to 35% protein
    
    And - if you make your own kitty food, what percentage is that?
    
    thanks!
    
    ps - the pycho kitty episodes seem to be over. They'll still not
    complete at ease with each other, but the worst is over. YEAH!!!!! 
    thanks for your help on this!

    Re: .15 low protein
    
    I'd ask the vet, so you're sure.
    

    RE: .10
    
    whoops, it wasn't the Dr Foster&Smith catalog but the April 1996 issue
    of Cat Fancy (page 47). They call it a "cat diaper", and it sounds like
    they might have a catalog of them.
    
    Deb

    
    For canned foods, 8% is considered low.
    
    For dry foods, around 25% is low.
    
    Homemade food is more likely to be of the wet (like canned) variety,
    but you'll have a very difficult time accurately estimating (never mind
    measuring) the protein content.
    
    I still recommend that you be less concerned with a specific protein
    level and concentrate on chicken, lamb and veal based foods, and avoid
    fish, beef and organ meats.
    
    I've used this strategy with Merlin (because it would have been unfair
    to him to segregate him so that the growing kittens, who needed a high
    protein diet, couldn't "steal" his food), and despite two episodes of
    "bad" kidney numbers over the past three years, is still going strong at
    age 20 closing in on 21.
    
    According to the Tufts Veterinary School newsletter "Catnip", the "high
    protein -> kidney failure" connection is only conjectural, and has
    never been supported by experimental evidence.
    
    len.
       
    

    
    
    	Karen
    
    	She's been peeing in the spot on the floor for months now.
    	I have put a call in (for the third time) with the landlord's
    	wife to make sure she's not bringing people in today.  Doesn't
    	look like she was there yesterday like she said she was going 
    	to be.  I'd like to know if this is finally all over with.  I've
    	been trying not to make waves cuz they've let me out of my lease
    	early but I honestly don't remember the last time someone annoyed
    	and angered me as much as this woman has.
    
    	JJ
    

    
    Hi Janet,
    
    In reply to Rascal being a psycho-kitty and abusing Merlin,  I have
    four cats myself and have gone through aggressive behavior amongst
    them.  What I believe started the problem was what we might call "gang
    -related violence" towards a weaker member.  Three of my cats pick on
    my oldest cat, Norman, by intimidating him through staring, jump on him
    while he is asleep, and wrestling with him.  If it were all in fun I
    would have no problem with that.  What I do notice,  though, is that
    Norman wants nothing to do with the other three.  He simply wants to live
    out his retirement years in peace. I think Nicky, Holden and Mello realize
    that he will back off and not fight, and for different reasons,  think
    he is weaker than they are.  I believe that their aggressive behavior
    is due to the fact that somehow they sense him as weaker and an easy
    target for their aggression. 
    
    If Merlin is sending vibes to Rascal that he is vunerable,  this may be
    why Rascal is picking on him.  The one major thing I did in order to 
    help Norman live a peaceful life was I had the other three renegades
    declawed.  I notice their behavior is not quite so aggressive.  It was
    a tough decision if whether it were right for me to take away their
    natural protection.  But it was either try declawing or allow Norman to
    be picked on all the time.  
    
    You may think that Rascal's behavior has abruptly changed,  but if
    Merlin is throwing off inferior vibes to Rascal,  I can see the above
    senario applying to your situation.
    
    Nancy

    Panther has always been sort of the social parriah of the FIRM. He is
    pretty timid and the others seem to pick on him. He always hung out with
    his twin sister Eirene, and the two of them stayed ignored the others.
    If anyone gave him any troublem Argus let them have it.  Once Argus and his
    sister Eirene passed away, he really started getting the brunt of it
    from the others. While I think that he is still at the bottom rung of
    the social ladder, I've managed to raise his "self-esteem" a bit by
    showing him all the attention that he craves (and given he is half
    Siameese, this is a lot), and speical food (i.e., he is the only one
    to get canned food in the morning). The other cats have noticed this
    and it has somehow lowered his "vulnerablity factor", since they don't
    seem to pick on him much any more. 
    
    Deb

    
    I feel really lame asking this question, but it's been driving me crazy
    for the last few days.
    
    Whatever is the purpose of stud pants?
    

    thanks for the replies on the "psycho kitty" and the protein issue!
    
    re: kidney/liver  I am planning to have a scheduled discussion with the
    vet, so we can talk in length about what they said on the phone, what
    we should do, etc. 
    
    re: psycho-kitty    as I said in last night's note, things seem to have
    calmed down. I was away this weekend, but jeff stayed with the kitties.
    Over the weekend hostilities decreased so that he could let both
    kitties be together, with only an occassional hissing. Now, they are
    almost back to "normal"... eating side by side, sleeping on the same
    bed, running through the house after each other, with no growling,
    "deadly stares" or fights.   In fact this morning, Rascal did his
    usual -- come up into merlin's face and sniff -- with nary a reaction
    from merlin other than a "get out of my face" look.
    
    the only thing I can think of is Rascal got rattled with the vet visit
    and the odd smells they may have picked up. since merlin wasn't feeling
    well after the visit, he became intimidated by Rascal. The more he
    stayed intimidated, the more Rascal took advantage of the situation.
    Once merlin started feeling better and giving back what he was getting,
    Rascal backed off.... my guess. who knows with these guys! Anyway, the
    house is getting back to normal, which is a big relief!
    
    thanks again for all the help/suggestions provided here!
    
    janetb.
    
    
    
    

    RE: stud pants
    
    Breeders need to keep analtered males for their breeding program, i.e.,
    for stud. Unaltered males tend to spray, so as a result, they are often
    caged for most of their carrer. If you want the cat to be able to roam
    around the house without marking the whole place, having them wear
    somthing to collect the sprayed urine would make that possible.
    Breeders call these garments "stud pants".
    
    Deb

    
    Oh, thank you so much.  I don't know why that didn't occur to me - all
    I could think of with the term "stud pants" was that it had something
    to do with helping the male cat to have sex, and my mind was boggling 8^).
                                                     
    

    Another quick update -
    
    no more psycho kitty episodes. Everything seems to be back to normal -
    or as normal as it can be with kitties!
    
    And, stopped off at the food store yesterday, did some label checking
    and bought 2 cans of kalcan and 2 of sheba that were 8% protein. Merlin
    devoured the kalcan like it was the best treat ever. One flavor was the
    Turkey, don't remember the other flavor. But they've both been tried
    and devoured. In fact I was kidding him that having a lower protein
    level isn't going to help if he eats twice as much!  Also found
    crackers that were 25% or 28% protein. 
    
    question: does a low protein diet hurt an adult cat who doesn't have
    kidney problems?
    
    and - the kalcan was on special sale with a "discontinued" label?
    Anyone know if this is a kalcan discontinuation or just the store I'm
    going to? they've recently cut back on other items so I wouldn't doubt
    it being the store.  I would hate to find a food merlin really likes
    just to have it not available!
    
    thanks!
    
    janetb
    who's working from home today and currently has a kitty sound asleep on
    my lap! this is great!

    
    A low protein diet probably won't adversely affect an adult cat; I'd be
    wary of feeding it to a kitten (less than a year old).  Growing kittens
    have outrageous protein requirements.
    
    len.
    

    Did you get the KalKan Optima? Is that what was being discontinued? I
    hope not; Princess Zoe refuses to eat anything else (unless it comes
    off my plate!)
    
    Deb

    re:-2  
    
    Len - thanks for the input. I figured a low protein diet would be ok
    for any adult cat, but just wanted to to ask the question here. I'll be
    checking this with the vet too.
    
    re:-1 KalKan Optima - yes it is the Optima, but when I went back to the
    store yesterday, the "discontinued" sign was only on the Ocean fish
    flavor (or something like that). There was no sign on the Turkey and
    giblits. And again, it could just be this store chain that isn't going
    to carry it anymore. they've done this several times before with people
    food - discontinued it, saying it's not being made anymore and when I
    call the company they say just the opposite. BTW - I'm located in
    maryland.   And the KalKan, even a day old, cold out of the fridge is
    still snarfed down pretty quick. So - I stocked up on what the store
    had and hopefully will find it in other stores.
    
    janetb.

    >    store yesterday, the "discontinued" sign was only on the Ocean fish
    
    !@#$%^&*()!!!!
    
    Lately, Ocean Fish is the flavor that her royal highness Princess Zoe
    has to have for supper or she wont eat!!! I hope it is just the store that
    is discontining carrying it. Of course, I'm sure that in another month,
    she will decide she doesn't like it anymore and demand I find a different
    flavor for supper.
    
    Deb (whose cats claim that they are neither fussy nor spoiled)

    Since Wizard has to have the K/D food for his kidney problems, his
    sister, without any problems, has to eat it too. I gave up on trying to
    feed them separate foods.  The vet said it was fine for both of them.
    It's been about two years on this diet and they are both fine. Luckily,
    the K/D dry is acceptable, the K/D canned was returned. 
    
    Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    I'm glad to hear Wizard is still doing well!!
    Deb