Conference misery::feline

Gee, Valerie, Dianne and I were just discussing this at lunch!  I say he's,
ummmm, how you say, just interested in boys!!  Only kidding!!  Maybe he's
just playing hard to get...men!!  Go figure!

Mary, who's feeling silly

    Valerie, 
    
    Everything that you have been told is true, conflicting or not, for
    somebody's cat.  The fact is, that each male cat is an individual, 
    and each is different. 
    
    It appears that Beau hasn't reached sexual maturity yet, so you may
    have to be patient.  I have always heard from my Persian breeder
    friends, that most Persian males don't sire until they are two.  Being 
    an owner and exhibitor of Birman males that have wanted to sire as young
    as 5-7 months, I have always thought that late maturity would be great!  
    My boys get their hormones early usually, and this makes it difficult 
    to show them.  The more sexually aggressive they are, the more
    difficult they are to show.
    
    At the age of 17 months, I don't think I would start the hormone
    testing yet.  I know that there is a hormone injection that he can be
    given to try and increase his libido, but with him being this young, I
    would hold off.  Plus, the fact that we are in winter might have
    something to do with it.  I would wait at least until spring, when he
    is a bit older and all the girls are in roaring season and see what
    happens then.
    
    Currently, I have two whole males.  Reste is 10 months old and has the
    urge but hasn't perfected his technique.  He matured at about 8 months
    old and has had to be confined since then.  Nepenthe is 13 months.  He 
    didn't start to get his hormones until about 10 months old, and had to 
    be confined at first, but then he backtracked and I am back to letting
    him run around most of the time.  He seems not the least bit interested
    in girls right now, so I think that may because of the seasons. 
    Neither boy is spraying much right now either.  They both do spray too.
    
    Kalliste, who I lost last January, was a great stud cat.  He was
    dragging my queens around by the neck at 5 months old, sired his first
    litter at 7 months old, threw a higher percentage of female kittens
    than male kittens, and would breed anything, anytime.  On top of that,
    he wasn't a heavy sprayer or caller.  Kalliste had to be confined from
    the time he was 5 months old.
    
    Moody was over a year before he would even attempt to breed.  I only
    got one litter out of him.  He had a really low drive.  But, his
    grandfather was that way too.
    
    So, I guess the moral is that every male cat is an individual and that
    you have to just wait and see what your male will do.  But, I would
    wait until spring before I became too concerned about his lack of
    libido.  Cats are seasonally active.
    
    Jo

Jo,

Boy you really know how to make me jealous.  Studding at 5 months!!!!

Well, in your professional opinion, should I pen him or not?

Valerie

    Actually, I wasn't too thrilled about him wanting to stud at 5 months. 
    I was trying to show him, and a whiff of female set him off.  Judges
    will sometimes make allowances for whole male behavior in the adult
    class, but in kitten class???  I did manage to grand him young, thank
    goodness.  He sired his first litter before he was even a champion
    though.
    
    I haven't been quite so lucky with my new boys.  Nepenthe started out
    very sexually aggressive and now could care less about girls.  Reste is
    starting to figure this out.  Since Reste is granded, I will keep
    giving him the opportunity to try, but Nepenthe will just have to wait
    until he is granded now.
    
    On whether to confine him or not, I would probably go ahead and confine
    him.  I start confining them for short periods when they are little,
    on the assumption that eventually they will have to be confined and we
    might as well ease them into it gradually rather than do it cold
    turkey.  You could try confining him when you aren't home (he will
    probably sleep the whole time anyway) and then let him loose when you
    are home.  We do this with Nepenthe.
    
    Also, I remembered something else.  I think it may be somewhat true
    about some cats getting so attached to you that they can't/won't breed. 
    The grandfather of Moody was this way, and he was a male that was
    allowed to live like a pet cat, with no confinement, etc.  His owner
    had a hard time getting him to breed most of her girls.  He did like
    one or two females, but even with them she would have to spend hours
    encouraging him.
    
    Another breeder friend had a male Birman that wouldn't breed.  She had
    acquired him as an adult, and been told that his breeder had never
    attempted to use him for stud.  She ended up taking him into her vet
    for testosterone (I think) shots when she wanted him to breed.  I think
    she may have gotten one litter out of him, I will have to ask her. 
    But, he was much older than your boy.  He was 5-6 and hadn't ever sired
    a litter.
    
    Jo

    re: brother/sister relationship - I don't understand that comment 
    at all!  Angel would like nothing better than to mate with her
    littermate Shadow when she's in heat - and has done so once.  My
    latest kitty-star, Putiput's Quicksilver, is the result.
    
    All I can say is you never know what's going to happen.  I bought
    a lovely straight-earred cream girl for Shadow.  She finally had
    a very mild heat the first week in December.  I put her and 
    Shadow together for a few days - HE was interested but I didn't
    think she let him anywhere near her.  After two days Shadow ran
    out of the room as if to say "I can't take this frustration anymore."
    So I put him back in his cage and resigned myself to waiting for
    a real strong heat in Marmalade. 
    
    Well, guess what!  Marmie is due the first week in February!!!!!!!!
      Nancy DC
    

    Well, I tried out each of my boys recently.  Limoges came into season
    so I gave Reste the opportunity to try.  He was 11 months old, so I
    thought what the heck.  I am still not sure if he ever managed to breed
    her.  She was willing, he was trying, but from where I was sitting, it
    didn't look like they ever accomplished anything.  We will just have to
    check her in a week or so.  I left them together for a week, and that
    was almost two weeks ago. We should know if she is pregnant in another
    week.
    
    Then Janet brought Nattie over to be bred to Nepenthe.  We went ahead
    and let him try.  He is 14 months old now.  He had less of a clue than
    Reste did!  I did my best not to laugh at him (didn't want to create
    any performance anxiety on his part. ;'}).  About the only thing that
    he could figure out was that he was supposed to bite her scruff! :')  I
    left them together for several days and told Janet to mark her calendar
    but not to hold her breath. ;')
    
    Jo

I'm looking for some breeders in the Massachusetts are for Birmans,
Snowshoes and Ragdolls.  I couldn't find anything in this file.  Could
someone possibly recommend some breeders that they know of for these breeds?

Thanks in advance,

Laura

    For Ragdolls, I recommend Connie Schmitter in western MA.  Sorry, I
    don't remember her town but do know that she advertises in the back of
    Cat Fancy and Cats magazines.  Her cattery name is Crown Oak.
    
    There are some Birman breeders here at DEC in MA and NH.  Linda Sobek
    in MA, and Nancy Jenkins in NH.  Both have very nice cats.
    
    Don't know about Snowshoes though.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    -Roberta
    

    
    
    	My husband and I were a cat show a couple of month's ago
    	an they had a really nice cat but, I can't remember the
    	name.. 
    	
    	Description:
    
    	Looks like simese with blue eyes and long fur.  Very 
    	friendly...
    
    	I thought it was a hymalain???(sp).. 
    
    	I have friend who is interested purchasing one.. (pet home)
    	how much do they run in $$$.

    Was it long and skinny??  Just a bit of silky furr??  Or was it about
    the same shape as a persian with the pushed in face??
    
    If it was long and skinny with a long nose and silky long hair, it was
    called a Balinese.  They're beautiful cats!! 
    
    If it looked like a persian with points, then it was a Himalayan.  Very
    nice, but not as active as the balinese are.
    
    They probably run about the amount of most purebred cats.  Pets are
    probably around $200-$300.  I know of a few very nice breeders(of both
    kinds of cats).  Will bring their names to work tomorrow and send them
    to you.
    
    Hope this helps!
    
    Holly
    

    Or it could have been a Ragdoll.  Ragdolls come in three patterns and
    four colors.  One pattern is the traditional Siamese pattern, with the
    dark face, ears, legs, feet and tail.  The other two patterns have four
    white feet (mitted), and an inverted white V in the face and white legs
    (bicolor).
    
    Most likely what your friend saw is the Himalayan.
    
    But then there is always the Birman, to add even more confusion to the
    discussion!!
    
    -Roberta
    

================================================================================
Note 96.12                   Breeder's Advice Needed                    12 of 12
MRKTNG::ROSSI "Give me another word for Thesaurus.." 18 lines  29-JUN-1992 11:42
                   -< Did I hear someone mention Himmy's??? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donna,

I am a Himalayan breeder in Southern NH.  I am very active in the CFF 
show circut, perhaps I have met you at one of the shows in NH or Mass..

I have been showing my Grand Champion Blue Point Male, "Beau".


I am expecting 2 litters of Himmy's on July 1 and July 24.  

Prices do vary, depending on quality/confirmation.  Pet price starts at 
around $250.00 - $300.00, with spay and neuter agreements.

Feel free to contact me if you would like further information.

Valerie
DTN 264-5780

long haired siamese-type cats are called balinese or javanese...depending
on the color of the "points" (nose, feet, and tail).  My Javanese is
a flame-point (red tiger-striped points).  Absolutely wonderful cat - talks,
and behaves very siamese- but doesn't have the health problems I've seen
with the siamese in the last few years (food allergies, skin problems, eye
problems).  The Flash is as healthy as a horse.

	I recommend the breed.....

of course, the sturdier pointed cats can also be Birmans - if they have
pretty white boots.  I also have one of these and I am totally biased....
these are wonderful cats - but, you can't have just one.  I'm already
saving for my next one.

    
    
    
    	This cat was supper friendly.. The women who owned it 
    	also had shelties.. (she works for DEC)...
    
    	How much care goes into a grooming?.. (hymalains)..
    
    	Thanks for the quick responses.. 
    
    	Donna	
    	

Donna,

A little light brushing a few times a week is all that's needed.  It 
doesn't take much time at all.  It's relaxing for you, the cat adores it, 
and it really creates a bond between you and the animal.
    	
There is a little more work in caring for a long hair, but in my opinion 
there is nothing more beautiful then a cat with a long flowing gorgeous 
coat.  That's another reason why I like showing them.   Himalayans like 
Persians  are very flashy, and get many ooohs and aahhs by spectators when 
you take them into a ring.

I just entered a new note #324 dedicated to the Himmy. Some information 
on how the breed was started, along with the Breed standard and colors 
and patterns the Himalayan comes in.

Hope this helps.

Valerie

    Donna,
    
    The cat is definitely a Birman, and the breeder, Nancy Jenkins, works
    for DEC and breeds Shelties.  Birmans are SUPER friendly cats, not to
    mention beautiful ones.
    
    I have to put a plug in for Himalayans too, since I have a gorgeous
    blue lynxpoint boy who comes from similar lines as Valerie's cats.
    
    -Roberta
    

Birman fur care is:

	bath every 4 - 6 weeks (dry thoroughly in a warm place, either
	by blow drying on cool temp or by natural dry if temperature
	allows)

	comb coat thoroughly two - three times a week - or you can get
	knots on the underside of the cat.  

	daily or every-other-day feeding of some canned food for one
	meal (additional oil in food seems to help coat condition)

	lots of admiration and praise for such a beautiful coat.    


		Dilly and the rest of the Wilde House gang

    I need some breeding advise and maybe a ppinter or two.  I have a 7
    month old, un-papered seal point Himalayan.  I am interested in breeding 
    her but I have no idea how to go about finding a stud for her.  I also
    have some concerns about what her going into heat is going to do to my
    2 neutered males.  They tend to be very sensitive to each other's
    emotional states.  Does a female in heat upset neutered males?  How
    would I go about finding out about locating a stud, stud fees, etc.?
    
    I asked my vet about it yesterday but she didn't have any cat
    breeder references for Colorado Springs.  Is there a registry somewhere
    or a place to call to see if there are any breeders in the state?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Nanci 

I think that even if you found a breeder, he or she would be reluctant to
offer stud service to a non-papered cat.  Reputable breeders breed solely
to improve the characteristics of the cat.  Breeding to a non-papered cat
or a cat outside of a known cattery is rarely done.  And no one but a
breeder would be dumb enough to voluntarily keep a whole male around...ugh...

As for what your female in heat will do to your two boys is little compared
to the cat population in your area.  I took in a pregnant stray, Meggie, who
went into heat a few weeks after she had her kittens.  She drove me, my boys, 
and the 500 cats in a ten mile radius absolutely up a wall.  Boy cats can find 
a girl cat in heat from amazing distances.  Meggie screamed all day and all 
night as did every cat in the neighborhood.  My neighbors complained about
the noise and about the constant cat fights.  It wasn't much fun.....  
Having babies in the house was cute--finding homes for them was a little 
more difficult than I thought it would be.  I was very lucky that Meggie
had healthy kittens.  I don't know if I could go thru what Holly just went
thru with poor Kyra.

Mary

    Thanks, Mary.  That was what I was afraid of.  I know Samantha would
    have absolutely gorgeous kittens if I could find the right father for
    them but I don't want the rest of the family to go nuts in the
    meantime.  I'll definitely think some more about having her spayed. 
    Since Himmies usually mature late hopefully I've got a little time to
    consider our options.
    
    Nanci 

    Thank you, Mary.  (sigh) :-}
    
    Pat
    

    Nanci,
    
    Let me tell you about my neutered male Himalayan (also a gorgeous
    kitty if I do say so myself!  :^) )
    
    About a year ago, I visited a local breeder with the intention of
    looking at and possibly purchasing a kitten.  Upon arrival, she brought
    me into the kitten room and the babies were even cuter than I expected. 
    What really caught my eye though was a 2 year old neutered male running
    around frantically trying to breed her females in season.  She and her
    husband expressed a need to place him into a home with other fixed cats
    where he would receive the undivided love and attention he deserved. 
    They told me his personality was loving and friendly; however, he
    wanted nothing to do with me as long as there were females around to
    chase and mount.  I went home and mulled it over, then decided to take
    the plunge and adopt him since I viewed him as "needier" than the
    kittens, which I knew she would find homes for with no problems.
    
    Well, the change in his temperament has been unbelievable.  It took
    some time, but he is a lot happier in a home with two other fixed cats,
    and his loving and affectionate nature has shown through tenfold.  I
    definitely feel your two neutered boys, Himalayans or not, are going to
    be driven into a frenzy by a female in season, and possibly even start
    spraying themselves.  I have known several breeders of various breeds
    who have had to place their neutered household pets because they began
    marking territory as the females starting cycling.  I think I'd be
    worried about the possible unpleasant changes in their temperament if
    you do decide to breed.
    
    I do have to second what Mary said about not having papers on your
    female.  That will definitely pose a problem in trying to locate stud
    service.  If your female isn't a good representation of the Himalayan
    standard (mine isn't, even though *I* think he's the most beautiful
    Himmie I've ever laid eyes on), what would breeding her accomplish? 
    More pet kittens, and there are millions of them already waiting in the
    shelters desparately trying to find homes.
    
    Think long and hard, but remember, whatever we say here is opinion
    only.  If you are comfortable and can live with whatever you decide,
    then it's the right choice for you.
    
    -Roberta
    

And another thing, your vet may not wish to spay her while she's in heat.  My
vet wouldn't spay Meggie till she was out of heat.  Some females come in and
out of heat every few days or so.  I can't imagine it......

I don't know how breeders do it---I wouldn't have an un-altered animal in
my house for all the money in the world......

Oh, ya, I just remembered another pleasantry----the boys who wanted Meggie
used to fight not only amoung themselves, but also took on a few skunks.
Blend the smell of skunk spray with boy spray.....excuse me, I need to
toss lunch......

    Thanks for sharing your personal experience, Roberta.  It looks as if
    Samantha will be heading in to get spayed sometime soon.  I have had
    males who sprayed in the past and I don't think I want to go through
    that again.  Right now my two boys are absolute sweethearts and I'd
    hate to have their temprements change that drastically.  that was one
    of my concerns over breeding Samantha.
    
    Again, thanks for the advice.  It's greatly appreciated!
    
    Nanci

    
    My experience with a cat being in season and spaying:  During the
    weaning of her kittens Callie's hormones went crazy, on top of that she
    went into heat, a double whammie.  She actually attacked Bailey.  I am
    talking about teeth bared, claws out, ears back, screeching, screaming, 
    attacking (needless to say it scared the urine right out of Bailey ).  I 
    had to throw clothes on top of her to be able to grab her and get her 
    into the Tokyo cage.  I brought her to the vet and they advised me that
    if I was not going to breed her again that she should be spayed as soon
    as possible.  I do not know if it is a common practice, but the spaying
    charge was higher due to the fact that she was in heat.  They did an
    excellent job and there were no contraindications.
    
    
     

    Oh, gee, Marlene, I had forgotten about that....Meggie beat the crap
    out of Chauncey at every possible opportunity, before she had the
    kittens as well as afterwards.  Poor Chauncey didn't dare even go
    upstairs.  After Meggie was spayed, I think Chauncey knew it was his
    big chance (Meggie was still a little slow after her surgery) and he
    cornered her and beat the crap out of her!  He felt very proud of
    himself...
    
    Mary

    Just another suggestion....
    
    If what you want to experience is the birth of kittens and to
    become a Kitty Grammy...you might want to check with your
    local shelters.   Many shelters are "begging" to find foster
    parents who can take Mom/Kittens for awhile until they are
    at an adoptable age!!  You'd be doing a wonderful service
    for a shelter...and get to by a Grammy too...and best of all
    not have to deal with cats in heat!   Of course...it gets
    tough having to give the kittens up when the time comes!!
    
    Sandy

My offhand comment to the vets after I asked how _early_ s/he would 
spay/neuter Hannah/Simon/Joshua/Rebecca is usually 'Ignorance is bliss,
for all parties involved (the less they know, the better we all feel)'

    Thanks again for the advice.  I've made an appointment for Samantha to
    be spayed next week.  It's just not worth it to take the chance of
    upsetting all three cats that much.  They're so sweet and, if it's
    working, why change it?  
    
    Nanci

    
    	Just a short question here and to be honest, I think I already
    know the answer.  The question has to do with catteries and the IRS.
    I know, the bad word.  Well, what I'd like to know is when you 
    become a cattery, do you clame all your expenses on the tax form?
    
    	For instance...you buy a queen and a stud...cost - 2000.00
    			vet bills...                     -  200.00
    			cages...                         -  800.00
    			food...                          -  ??? ??
    
    			etc...etc...
    
    	are all these expenses tax deductable?
    
    
    	What do other catteries do?
    
    		Holly, what do you do?
    
    		
    		Thanks in advance,
    			Hal

    
    Those are deductible expenses and are itemized on a Schedule C.
    
    
    

    Vet bills only $200????!!!!!
    
    Try vet bills $4258.69.  That's what mine were this year.
    
    Jo

    
    	Thanks very much...I wasn't sure if a cattery was considered a
    business or not.  Do you have to register the cattery with the state
    or anything?  So, since I'm on the right track here, a couple of other
    items I was wondering were tax deductable.....
    
    	How about all those cat mags.....
    			    CFA fees.....
    			    travel expenses to and from shows.....
    			    Food and hotel expense.....(everyone who goes
    				or just the owner).....
    			    cat litter.....
    			    Airlines tickets.....
    			    gas.....
    
    		I guess the list can go on and on but these are the ones
    		I can think of.
    
    	Jo,
    		As far as the vet expenses go.....$4,000...wow!  We've only
    	got 4 cats right now with yet another one flying in from Texas this
    	weekend.  So far, none has gotten sick yet and we haven't had a
    	litter yet either.  Lucky I guess.  I'm sure though that the vet
    	bills Jeane has payed for has added up to more than $200.  More
    	like $200 a shot.  I know she took all of them in just about a
    	month ago to have them all checked for FIV(?) and that cost about
    	$125.  Now Jeane is talking about taking Simon in to have his teeth
    	cleaned.  Jesh...cost more to have his teeth cleaned than it does
    	to have mine done.  
    
    		Anyway, thanks for everyones input here.  For Jeane and I,
    	this is a first time thing and really don't want to miss out on the
    	bennies.  We certainly arn't in this for the money but any break we
    	can get on our taxes will help.
    
    
    		Hal 
    			for Jeane and the babies...
    
    		Simon, Calipso, Jezzabell, Destany
    
    			and the new one on the way who's name we have
    			to come up with yet...fun, fun, fun...

    Just a couple of other notes (specific to the U.S., by the way...)
    
    (1) While you *can* just deduct expenses by filing Schedule C, the
    IRS takes a very dim view of people writing off "hobby expenses" as
    a business.  The dividing line between hobby and business is pretty
    fuzzy, and unfortunately it's the IRS who gets to decide.  In general,
    if your business shows a profit three years out of five, you're all
    set.  Otherwise, you've got a *lot* of explaining to do, and even
    *that* may not satisfy Uncle Sam!
    
    What this means as far as you're concerned is that you'd better at
    least scratch out a business plan that has you breaking even in two
    years and turning a profit in three.  It doesn't have to be a *large*
    profit, but it's gotta be nonnegative!
    
    You'll also do well if you keep businesslike records.  This needn't
    be hard... the easiest way is to get a Dome ledger book at your local
    stationery store and keep track of all your business-related money
    movement in there.
    
    (2) As far as "registering with the state" is concerned, there are two
    things to be concerned with.  First, as far as "regstering as a
    cattery" is concerned, I don't *think* there's any requirement as such.
    However, your local zoning laws may or may not allow you to run a cattery
    on your property... check this out!  (Most zoning laws are more strict
    about kennels than catteries, but some restrict the number of *any*
    kind of animal you can have on your premises).
    
    The second "state registration" piece of business might be useful,
    though, and that is to get a resellers' number from the Department
    of Revenue (at least in MA).  This allows you to buy goods without
    paying sales tax at the time of purchase.  Of course, the tax gets
    paid eventually, but *you* pay it when *you* resell the item, or when
    you take the item out of inventory for personal use.
    
    --jim
    

    You may also want to get a tax id number.  And make sure you keep very
    good "businesslike" records.  A friend of mine was audited once, made
    out ok, but the STRESS!!!
    
    We spent something to the tune of over $2K in vet bills last year
    ourselves.  You should expect to put alot of time and MONEY into your
    cats and not actually get much in return.  It is nice to try, but don't
    bet on it.  When Jimmy and I first started out everyone told us how
    hard it can be.  We couldn't even begin to realize what this could
    mean. From our own experience expect the unexpected and
    prepare for a lot of hardship.  On the other hand, you will have some
    wonderful, beautiful and loving friends with which to share your life.  
    Karen

    I've got a question for the breeders.
    
    The male TA that I originally bred Kyra to last year is no longer
    available to me.  The breeder is going out of breeding completely.
    
    I've contacted another breeder in Connecticut.  She will be getting a
    proven stud (has sire several CFA grands), but she's not sure when
    she'll be getting him.  
    
    She has a kitten who is 6 months old.  He has already started to try to
    sire.  He's a very nice odd eyed white turkish angora.  
    
    I'm wondering if I'd be risking anything by breeding to this young
    cat.  He already has bred one female of theirs (just last week).  Or
    should I wait for her to get this proven stud??
    
    My major concern is that I'm planning on getting married in August, and
    don't really want kittens due in the middle of my honeymoon.  I also
    don't want to be away when when the kittens only a few weeks old.
    This woman doesn't know when she's going to be getting this other stud.
    
    What should i do??
    
    Holly

    Holly, I just thought of something,  you can see if the other cat
    "pinks up" at the twenty-ish day mark.  If she does, then you 
    could be fairly certain that the breeding took.  My little 
    Travis aka "the bat" has appeared to have done his duty at just over
    six months! Jo's cat did it at five?! Wow!
    Good luck!
    Karen

    Actually, Kalliste was just over six when they bred.  He hadn't even
    gotten his winners ribbons when his first litter was born. :')  But he
    probably could have bred at five months.  We had to keep pulling him
    off of all our girls from the age of about 4 months on.  :')
    
    The only thing about breeding to a young boy like that is that in some
    breeds (mine included), a cat doesn't reach his full maturity til later
    and you may not have any idea of what his type will be once he matures.
    I generally prefer to use an older male for this reason.  
    
    Jo

    Would the sperm be valid in such a young kitten?  I will be breeding
    Josette after she gets through her pyo to one of the male kittens from
    another litter.  One has sired (as written above) and the other hasn't. 
    The trouble with this is that the one that hasn't had any experience
    would be preferred because of color.  Any thoughts?
    

    Kalliste's sperm was obviously valid when he first sired.  The queen
    had four kittens 9 weeks later. :')  I think it is an individual thing. 
    If it were me, and the queen had just recovered from Pyo, I would breed
    her to a male that was a sure thing, rather than risk using a male that
    might not be able to sire.  After a pyo, it is important that the queen
    has a litter on her next season.  This helps ensure that all the
    infection is flushed out of the uterus with the contractions of labor
    (or at least that is what has been thought to be right--a few years ago
    the vets thought a queen with pyometra had to be spayed, then they
    found out that they could cure them with hormones and antibiotics).
    
    Jo

    I thought this would be the proper place to continue the discussion
    on Pyometre (unless you want it to be a topice of it's own?).
    
    Josette had to go in for a second treatment.  Her first regimen was
    twice daily shots of Prostaglandin in combination with Dytrim
    antibiotics 120mg. twice a day.  This was done for three days.  At the
    end of seven days she was still having contractions and by the eighth
    day, a lot of pus was coming out.  (more than originally)
    
    She went back to the hospital and they have now almost completed the
    full five day treatment of the prostaglandins twice a day and Baytril
    this time.  We also have opted for doing a sensitivity culture on the
    discharge in order to find out exactly what is causing the infection
    and exactly which antibiotic would therefore be most effective.
    
    The other options that had been given were either exploratory surgery,
    and ultrasound.  Both being expensive and perhaps too invasive at this
    point to be an option for us.
    
    Luckily, the vet said that as of yesterday afternoon Josette had passed
    a nice amount of discharge (more than when she first went in) and that
    today she has a bloody discharge which is a good sign from what I am
    told.  My vet also told me that altho he has never had to repeat the
    treatment, it is discussed in the books as not being uncommon and
    sometimes necessary.  
    
    We feel fairly certain that this is going to work this time around.  I
    understand that this is a much more common occurrance than I originally
    thought.
    Karen

    A neighbor of mine wants to breed her Himalayan female, so she is
    looking for a male for her.  Can anyone send me mail if they know of
    someone who has a suitable male.  She is also willing to have her mate
    with a Persian.  Please send me VMSmail (KENT::KENT) or DTN 293-5129.
    Located in Stow (MA).
    
    Thanks,
    Peter

    
    
    
    Hi,
    
    	For those responsible breeders of cats, and I know that all
    persons reading this notesfiles are responsible 'cat people',
    I would like to ask what can breeders do at local and state levels
    to ensure that non-responsible breeders of cats are required to
    meet certain health and humane requirements, or cease breeding.
    
    	I recently read an article in my local paper that identified
    (in Massachusetts), that rules and regulations pertaining to
    pet shops and breeders of small animals were not well enforced.
    Therefore, animals were not being treated humanely and many died
    of sickness in these pet shops or soon after being sold.
    
    	I am sure that those of you who breed cats are very angry that
    some people breed cats for sale unresponsibly and that pet shops
    can be serious offenders.  So what can you do as a concerned group
    of responsible breeders at your local and state level?
    
    	I think that the main issue is, unfortunately, that cats
    are not valued as a whole by society because cats are not legally
    domestic animals.  So there are laws governing domestic animals
    as property, but cats do not fall under these protective laws
    as a rule, except on general humane terms.
    
    	I would appreciate your suggestions on this problem.
    
    Regards,
    
    Eleanor

    
    	I could not find a place for these. So I'll enter it here and if
    there is a place for it, Mod., please feel free to move it. 
    
    	My father's cat just had a litter of only 2 kittens. I thought
    that's a bit small for a litter. Should we be worried? The mother seems
    ok. She's laying there and the kittens are feeding off of her. She let
    us pet her and the kittens. Not like when she was pregnant. She had the
    kittens sometime Wednesday, on my father's bed. No one knew or seen her
    give birth. 
    
    	Thanks for any help.
    	Tom 

    Well, it's a bit late, but I'll reply anyway.  No, you shouldn't worry
    about the mother, as long as she is doing well.  I had a litter with
    only ONE kitten.  Granted, Mondo is HUGE!!
    
    Holly
    

    
    	Thanks for the relief. I kept my eyes on the mother and she's doing
    fine. She's very protective though. She'll leave the room to go do her
    thing in the litter box and runs right back to the kitties. If she
    leaves the room, and hears foot steps, she runs right back and looks at
    the corner where the kitties are kept. I tried picking one of the
    kitties up and she meowed and pushed my hands away with her nose. I
    hope when we give away the kitties, she doesn't get too upset/lost.
    Abouts when could we give the kitties away? After they can take care of
    themselves? 
    
    	Tom 

    Tom,
    You need to start socializing the kittens now.  Sitting by the box
    and talking to the mother as well as the kittens is the first place
    to start.  Next you can start to pick them up and hold them petting the
    mother at the same time.
    
    If the mom gets too upset, put her out of the room. But you must start
    working with the kittens.  ONce they get to know your scent and
    feeling,they won't cry out as if in fear which in turn will get the mom
    all upset.  Eventually they will cry out in greeting!!  
    Moms can get a little upset at first, but don't worry about it.
    
    I have been handling all my litters since the minute they were born.  
    I have one baby right now who is four (?) weeks old living on my bed. 
    She and her mom are quite comfortable under my comforter in a special
    little spot I have for them.  My little one will climb up onto me to
    sleep at nite.  Last nite she was laying across my neck.  As she
    started to fall asleep I could feel her head dropping down the back of
    my head. It was soooo neat!  She calls me when she hears me come into
    the room and will crawl towards where she thinks I am.
    
    She still needs a name, I was thinking of Paphiopedilum, but my husband
    doesn't like it!
    Karen

    
    	Thanks for the info, Karen. When can the kitties be able to take care of
    themselves and be given away, maybe...
    
    	Tom

    TOm,
    
    I'd wait until they are at LEAST 10 weeks old.  I don't like kittens to
    leave the house until they're 12 weeks.
    
    H

    Ten weeks is a good time frame, but remember these are not purebreds.
    Tom's kitties may develop earlier.  He may also not want to keep them
    around too long.  I would say the "usual" 6 week time frame is too
    early.  Most pet/ads usually say at 6 weeks.  I don't agree.
    I have kept "kittens" for as long as 9 months!
    Tom will need to see how they are developing and eating.
    Karen
    

    
    	So if they eat well, playful and happy, then I can take them away
    from the mother? Is there anything I can do for the mother once I've
    taken the kittens away? Like a toy to keep her occupied ? 
    
    	Tom

    Kittens usually start eating solid foods at 4 weeks old, and
    still nurse up to about 8 weeks or so (or until momcat gets
    fed up and says "enough!").  I wouldn't let the kittens go
    until they're at least 8 weeks old, regardless of whether they're
    nursing or not.
    
    Don't worry too much about the momcat when it's time for the kittens
    to go.  Believe me, after 8 weeks of kittens tugging, poking and 
    prodding at her, she'll be relieved to see them gone!
    
    Pam

    Pam,
    that is unless they are like Ruby, she takes em back at any age!
    Cassie has nursed Callie and he is ten months old!!
    
    Start feedingthe babies either max cat kitten in the can or 
    at the grocery store, Friskies kitten in the can.  Don't feed
    fish flavors if you can help it!  Also warm it up in the mic and
    add a few drops of water in the beginning to make it easier for 
    them to lap at.
    Karen