Conference misery::feline

    Hi -
    
    This isn't a behavioral problem, but I didn't want to start a new
    topic. 
    
    This is kind of hard to describe, but Poppy's feces have looked a
    little funny the last few days. Instead of being fairly solid and
    in discrete little pieces, it's coming out in one mass that's kind
    of soft and wiggly. (I'm cracking up as I'm trying to describe 
    this.)
    
    Other than this, she appears to be fine. She's eating well, using
    the box on her regular schedule, and acting like her usual goofball
    self. The only change in her diet has been a new "lite" food I 
    tried the other day, but she refused to eat more than a bite, so
    I don't think that's it. 
    
    Any ideas on what this could be and whether there's reason for
    concern?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Kate
    

    The lite food has more fiber and would probably soften up her stools
    like you described.  She may have eaten more than you think when you
    weren't looking.
    
    Jo

    If you give her milk, that could do it too.
    
    Bonnie

    Thanks for the replies. After more lumpy-looking stuff on Saturday,
    everything looked OK yesterday. We're back to Iams and we're not
    giving her any other treats for the time being, even though I
    got the "I'm so pitiful; give me some turkey" line while I was 
    making my lunch this morning.
    
    I hope all is back to normal. 
    
    Kate
    
    PS. Poppy doesn't like milk -- unless it has cereal in it, then
    she goes crazy. That's the only food that causes her to
    jump up on the table and go for it. What a nut!
     

    	Moderator- please move this, if there is a note already on this
    subject.
    
    	Litterbox problem-
    
    	My two yr,. old female Siamese has decided for no reason (that I
    know of) to not use the litterbox when she has a bowel movement.  There
    is never any urine omly solid.  I have another Siamese 4 yrs old that
    is using the box.  Both have been using the box together for 2 yrs.
    why all of a suddenly does one change?  I have NOT changed litter, and
    I have not moved the box.  Nothing new has happen or been added to the
    household.  Both are healthy - indoor only spayed females. I never
    catch
    the cat in the act of doing it, but if I did, what do I do yell???
    Cats are so different than dogs to train.  I don't want to yell and
    scare her, because she's in  the right area, just not the right place!
    I keep the box clean, and I recently added another litterbox.  It's
    being used, but I don't know by whom and there is still a "surprise"
    on the floor next to the box every night.  So I'm not sure if this
    happens everytime or just once a day. 
    
	Any suggestions would be appreciated.  I'm getting tired of
    cleaning-up after ****

    I'd take her to the vet just to be sure she's okay.  Also, I use
    a cheap bathroon rug from Sears underneath my cat's litter boxes,
    cut to extend a couple of feet outside the perimeter of the box.
    Then I just throw it in the washing machine every so often.  It helps
    to trap litter as well as occasional box missings.
    

if you know which cat is committing the "crime", then you might try a 48
hour isolation of the cat with her cat box.  isolate her with her cat box
(clean, new litter) in a room separate from the other cat.  You visit frequently
and give lots of love, but keep the other cat away.  If you don't have any
mistakes during this time, then I would start trying:

	1) move one cat box away from the other - you may have a cat
	   that is pushing dominance and that may cause such behavior.
	   Moving the second litter box to another area removes the need
	   for the dominated cat to enter the alpha cat's territory.

	2) change the litter...I know, we always say not to, but something
	   new may have been added to the litter or the scent may have
	   changed and this can throw off a cat.  Perhaps, brand new litter
	   can be adapted to - again, keeping the cat and her box in one
	   room, isolated from the other cat....a small room like a bathroom
	   is ideal for this.  Once the cat has used the litter, it should
	   be okay to allow her to roam.

	3) get Nature's Miracle on the spot where the mistake has happened.
	   even if you cannot smell it, cats can - their noses put blood-
	   hound snouts to shame.  Nature's Miracle will kill the odor
	   completely.  Once a mistake has happened, a cat will often return
	   to the same general spot because it smells like ****...and that
	   is where **** belongs.  It is logical to the cat.

I also agree, however, that the first thing to do is to see a vet...if the
cat is experiencing pain when entering the cat box, or when attempting to
use it, she will begin to go elsewhere....cats aren't rocket scientists,
you know, and they make funny connections around things like pain...once a
vet has cleared all possible medical issues, then try the behavior mods and/or
environmental changes I've outlined...and if these don't work...holler for
some more - we got a million of them!

Don't give up - it can be dealt with if you just work it for a bit.

 >   	My two yr,. old female Siamese has decided for no reason (that I
 >   know of) to not use the litterbox when she has a bowel movement. 

My siamese has this problem, too.  She is pretty much incurable,
unfortunately.  It might be some kind of inbred behavior problem.
She also has the siamese behavior problem of pulling out her fur 
and leaving big bald patches all over so she is not psychologically 
very stable.

Yesterday I put an empty litterbox where she usually likes to go
and she went in that but it remains to be seen how long this will
work.

The funny thing is that she prefers green floor surfaces to go on, 
carpet or linoleum.  Nothing else attracts her.  If I could cover 
up all of the green floor surfaces in the house, I would have the 
problem solved.

...............................beth

         Midnight has this problem when the boxes are the least bit dirty. 
    When Loki's diabetes was uncontrolled and he was peeing all the time
    (we're talking swimming with urine), she refused to go in the box.  She
    did go right outside too, like yours, she was *close* but not *in*.
    
         Now that Loki's diabetes is controlled and he's peeing normally,
    she's using the boxes normally again too, but I find that the day or
    two before the boxes are scheduled to be changed, she has to be
    "reminded", i.e. she scratches outside the box and if someone doesn't
    say "Midnight" she goes outside the box; if she's reminded she bails
    right in.
    
         Does she do this all the time now, or only after the boxes have
    been used for a few days?
    
    					- Andrea

    My Pandora decided that she would not use the box for bowel movements 
    after we got another kitten. Unfortunately her choice spot was behind
    the washer. We blocked that off. Now she goes on the newspaper, when
    she finishes she rips off some newspaper and covers it up. This has
    been going on for about 6 months. The newspaper surrounds the
    litterbox. It doesn't matter if the boxes are freshly changed. She
    always urinates in the box though.
    
                                                   Alice and Pandora
    
    

    Re: .10
    
    You've just given a whole new meaning to "opening Pandora's Box"!
    
    ;^)
    
    K.C.

    Actually the upstair's litter box has a sticker on it reading
    Pandora's Box. We just couldn't resist. Maybe she's insulted to have a
    litterbox named after her!!!
    
    My little trouble maker Thor missed the box this week. He thinks its
    macho to stand on the rim and pee. Well he slip and cat pee went all
    over the basement floor. It was lots of fun cleaning up.

    My boys, especially Kelsey, have this thing about only peeing in the
    far corners of the litterbox.  They will go to great lengths to ensure
    that they are backed up as far as possible in the corner, then start to
    go.  Needless to say, the boxes I use have very high sides.
    
    -Roberta
    
    

Roberta,

Honey and Julie do the same thing.  Julie, however, will only use the far 
corners for both, whereas Honey only uses them for pee.  I, too, am glad I have
boxes with high sides...

Mary

    Sweetie is a corner cat too.
    

    
    	re .9
    
    	It doesn't matter if I just changed the litter that day or if it's
    	a few days, she just won't use it.  She goes in the same spot which
    	luckily is on the lineolum floor no more than 2 feet away from the
    	box.  She's always been the one who goes into the litterbox does
    	her thing, does not cover up and jumps out so fast that kitty
    	litter is all over the place.  I resorted to a cover on the box,
    	but I did that 6 months ago and no one seemed to mind.  I'm real
    	good about cleaning out the litter once a day, but that doesn't
    	seem to make a difference.  
    
    	I did take her to the Vets a few weeks ago and she OK (a little
    	chunky, but OK).  One of the other notes mentioned the dominate
    one-
    	believe me, she is the dominate cat.  She really bugs the other
    	poor cat crazy, but in a spoiled way, not a bad way if you know
    	what I mean.   So I don't think that's a problem, unless I mis-
    	understand and it's the dominate one that won't use the litter
    	box with another cat.  When I put out two boxes, one or two
    	days there wasn't any accidents, but after that one a day as
    	usual.
    
    	It's a good thing she is such a cutey and so sweet and loveable,
    	because this habit is not too endearing.
    
    	-dee
    

>>>>                       <<< Note 27.16 by AIMHI::UPTON >>>

okay, now we have a hint.  I'll bet she doesn't like sharing her box.
You said she is fine for a couple of days with two boxes - and then she
goes off.  IT sounds like she uses the box until the smell of the other
cat gets noticable to her, as when the other cat "invades" her box...and 
then she refuses to use the box.  

This can be dealt with - if you can train the other cat to only use one
box.  In general, the "isolate cat with litter box" for a while can be
a solution...if you move one box completely away from the other one, it will
then be possible to train each cat to go to a specific box - MOST of the
time.  Then, when you notice a "gift" on the linoleum, you know that the
"rules" have been broken, and you need to clean the litter boxes out completely
(both boxes at the same time - or the fresh box will be used by both cats)
and start over.  I would also rinse the box out with Nature's Miracle to kill
the "foreign" smell.  

I can relate to this...we used to have a siamese who would not share her cat
box - I moved a small cat box away from the others and she was fine...until
I changed her brand of litter one day.  That night, she climbed into my 
waterbed - while I was sleeping - and "took a dump"....I woke up to her
finishing her business.  I learned my lesson...I never changed litter brands
on her again.  Be grateful your cat is expressing her displeasure on the
linoleum.  

Oh, and do use Nature's Miracle on that spot...at least it will give her
the option of choosing a different spot occasionally ..8^}

    I have another observation...
    
    You said that 6 months ago you resorted to putting a cover on the box.
    Well, was she defecating outside the box before the cover?
    
    I have a queen (Joui) that likes to perch on the edge of the box when
    she has a bowel movement, and then she runs like h*ll when she is done,
    never covering it up.  I have mostly covered boxes, but I leave one or
    two boxes around with no cover.  Joui uses those for bowel movements
    but pees in the covered ones.  If all my boxes were covered then she
    would probably use the floor.
    
    Jo

This may be a silly question, but is it possible for a cat exhibiting
"I won't share a box" or "I want my own box" behavior to defecate on the floor
but still be willing to urinate in the (multi-cat) box?  At least I HOPE she's
urinating in the box, or we have a hell of a disaster somewhere!  This is Penny
again, sigh.  We had confined her a few months ago, and she did fine in her
"private suite", and for a short period of time after letting her out, but
she's back to consistently defecating on the carpet downstairs, in any one of
an increasing number of spots near the litter boxes.  With 4 cats, I can't give
them each their own box, but maybe I'll try adding another (third) box and
see what happens, after a little remedial training (ie confinement) again. At
least there's one (albeit selfish) plus that comes with the confinement--
Penny was the most affectionate she'd ever been or has been since!

Jill

in my experience, defecating is the issue...none of the cats I've know have
been picky about where to urinate.  They will share a box for that...but I
had to add the extra box for defecation.

		we-learn-as-we-go,

			D

         Same here.  Midnight *always* pees in the box, she only defecates
    outside.
    
    					- Andrea

    I have three boxes in the house.  One is upstairs for Julie's use, but
    the others will occasionally use it, much to her dismay.  But the
    interesting thing is the two other boxes.  One is in the downstairs
    bathroom and I recently placed another (same size, same brand) in the
    entrance way to the basement.  While all 6 cats will use the bathroom
    box for both functions, the box in the basement is never, ever peed in. 
    At first I thought it was my imagination, so I put a Fresh Feliner in
    the bottom to see if it ever got wet, and after a week, the box had
    been pooped in numerous times, but the Feliner was clean as a bell.
    I wonder if they held a meeting and decided they wouldn't pee in that
    box.  They must know that pee smell stays around and, after all, it's
    often nice to sleep in the basement in a basket of clean clothes.....
    
    
    Mary

    re: .22
    
    Maybe they're using the basement entrance box as a fortress against
    predators, marking the limits of their territory.  I think I read
    somewhere that, when it comes to marking their territory, poops hold
    more weight than peeps.  That may be why, when cats go "off the box",
    it's not usually puddles that you find, but piles.
    
    Jo-Ann

    I have noticed in my cattery that the cats definitely decide which
    boxes are for peeing and which are for defecating.  We have 14
    litterboxes, and the ones that are in the main part of the house get
    somehow assigned as pee boxs or defecation boxes.  This is great as far
    as I am concerned, since it means that only half the boxes have to be
    changed frequently.  The other half can go a bit longer between
    changes.
    
    Jo

    
    	Well last Friday on my day off - I cleaned the linoleum floor with
    special cleaner and put out two litter boxes one with cover and one 
    without.  Well - there have been no accidents and it's Thursday
    morning!  I have cleaned out any solid matter every night.  It seems
    one litter box is used only for bowel movements - don't know why,
    but I guess they do.  So keep your fingers crossed that we make Friday
    of this week, when I change the two boxes completely.  It cost a
    bit more buying the extra litter, but I'm not complaining, just as
    long as they keep using either box.  It seems they use the litter
    box without the lid for bowel movements??
    
    	Thanks for all the help and info.  Always nice to know that
    others have had the same problem.
    
    	-dee
    

    I've got 3 cats and two boxes - one seems to be set aside for bowel
    movements - nobody else I knew that had cats experienced this so it
    makes me happy to hear that some others use this method as well.  Once
    in a while I'll find some solid in the "wet" box, but I think it's
    because the other one might have been in use.  
    
    Sounds like your solution is working out.
    
    Giudi

    Mine aren't picky which box they use (they have 3, all lined up in a
    row beside one another); however, Kelsey *must* have a perfectly clean
    box.  He will choose one that has already been scooped, or else hold it
    until I get a box scooped out, then he'll go in.
    
    Taja is the official mess coverer.  He will go into each box and cover
    up whatever the other cats neglected to bury.
    
    I used to have a cat that would throw the scoop into the box each time
    after he used the litter.  I would come downstairs to find the scoop
    inside the box and know it was Chauncey who used it!!
    
    
    -Roberta
    

    I love the "mess coverer (s)".  They take their job and mission in life
    very serriously - they are always alert and on duty and they definitely
    deserve a raise and extra treats!
    
    Giudi

	Has anyone else found buried toys in the litterboxes?  Spike is
	the culprit in our house :^}

    No, nothing in the litter boxex but drowned furry mouses in the water
    dishes!
    
    Giudi

    My siamese, Zeno, has a tendency to scrape the walls after using the
    box. He never covers up his "stuff", because he's always scraping the 
    walls, floor, side of the box.....
    
    shannon
    

    I've found lots of drowned mousies (thank you, Beth....), but the
    best thing I ever found in the litter box was my diamond ring.
    It had been missing for a day or so and I looked everywhere...or
    that is, everywhere except under half a ton of cat litter.  I found
    it while scooping.  Phew......
    
    And what is it with these wall scrapers??  Is this cat instinct?
    Drives me NUTS!!!  Honey is the worse.  He scratches the wall, looks
    down, realizes nothings happening, scratches the wall for 10 more
    minutes, looks down, realizes nothing's happening, then proceeds to
    scratch the floor, the outside of the box, the door, the air, then
    he gives up and walks away.  Some smart cat, huh?
    
    Mary

Yup, Michaela used to be a wall scratcher, and now Pima is!  It is SO funny 
to see them do this.  We've attributed it to them not wanting to get litter
between their toes.

If you want to see something REALLY funny, you should see Tabitha in the
litterbox!!  She only goes in the CORNERS.  And when she goes, she doesn't
stand IN the litter.  She strattles the side of the box!  It is SO funny
to see!!  But it is only when she poops.  She somehow balances herself so
that her front two paws are on the edge of the litterbox , one of her back
paws is on the edge, and only one back paw is actually touching the litter.
It's QUITE the site to see!

Holly

    Mine do the same thing!
    
    They perch on the side of the box, looking very serious, STRAINING  to
    get that poopie out-it's hysterical!  Whenever one of us sees them like
    this we'll call out "hey! come here and see (Pearl or Zeno)!"  I'm sure
    they *love* an audience!
    
    shannon
    

    More side perchers here!  Although both Alex and Rico hate an audience. 
    Rico goes with his back to the room, and although Alex faces the room,
    if anyone looks at her while she's doing "her thing", she'll puff up
    her upper lip and put her ears back, looking positively disgusted.
    
    Tiki was the worst...he would GROWL if anyone watched him (which made
    it very difficult when he had his kidney problem...not only did we HAVE
    to watch, but Rico would announce the fact).  He was not a percher,
    tho...but a sitter.
    
    K.C.

    Well its been a long time since I have participated in this notes
    conference.  Have been busy reading the Parenting File, we are
    expecting our first child (a baby daughter - Chelsea Rose) this May.
    
    Its gonna be quite a change for my girls, Sausha who will be 17 this
    August, Misty Rae (5), and Freeway (4).  My biggest fear was that the
    baby would be allergic, but now that has been replaced with lots of
    stories around behavior problems...peeing outside the litterbox being
    the #1 so far.
    
    Just in the last couple of days I have stepped on a wet spot.  Not a
    major pool, but definately more than a drop of water.  I  have checked
    for hair or white mucous thinking it might be a hairball problem, but
    nothing to be found.  I have then proceeded to put my nose as close
    as possible and really can't smell anything...which has really confused
    me cuz I thought if its cat pee it would have the strong smell of
    amonia.
    
    Outside of what it is the next question is "Who's doing It?"  Its
    really hard to catch any of them in the act when your at work during
    the week and nothing is being done in front of you.
    
    All of them are acting their normal spunky selves.  We have been
    giving them lots of love and I have even taken to rocking and cuddling
    a Cabbage Patch Doll to get them use to the idea of Mommy holding
    someone else besides them.
    
    Your replies are appreciated.
    
    ...Lori
    
    
    

    If it doesn't smell like urine, it probably is an attempt to throw up a
    hairball.  My guys do these false starts from time to time.  You might
    also take another look around;  they might have succeeded elsewhere....
    

coming over the network, I haven't time to hunt down the appropriate note,
but moderators, if you will please place this where it belongs, I will be
very grateful.

I was watching a PBS program the other night during which a cat behaviorist
was answering questions.  Of course, the dreaded "cat box" problem reared
it's ugly head...and I learned there is actually and equation to how many
cat boxes you are supposed to have...brace yourself...she strongly suggested
you have 1 catbox/cat and 1 extra for those cats who may refuse to use the
same box for both solid waste and urination.  She suggested that if you see
any problems, you first see the vet, SECOND ADD MORE CAT BOX(S), and then,
if the problem continues, try changing the litter.

whew!  I'm glad my bunch will use two jumbo boxes and one small box at the
other end of the house for those lazy midnight needs.  According to this
lady, I need 5 cat boxes...

		Please, don't tell my cats.

    Yippee!!  I fit the ratio.  I currently have 11 cats and 14 cat boxes.
    :')
    
    Jo

    oops!  4 cats, 3 boxes...I'm short by two boxes, but in 640 square
    feet, I'm not sure exactly where I'd put 2 more boxes.  It's wall-to-
    wall furniture in there now as it is.
    
    Jan

    7 cats and 3 boxes...2 jumbos and one smaller one upstairs for midnight
    stink raids....
    
    BTW, I mentioned a couple weeks ago about the new, improved Jonny Cat
    formula.  Well, it's new and improved and I really like it...
    
    Mary who's perpetually scooping..
    

    2 cats, 1 box, 1 small apartment...I'm fine!
    
    K.C.

	Wow, I guess we really have an easy-going crew when it comes to
	litterboxes.


	12 cats,  1 litter-pool,  no problems!


	Jan  

      10 cats  = 5 litters  with Bogie who still misses once in 
      awhile!!!!
    
    
      Jan your litter pool is equivilant to many boxes!!!  
                                
    Sandy

re: .-something:

> Please don't tell my cats

Yeah, no talking about this topic while you're in my house :-)

Jill w/ 4 (i/o) cats & 2 => 3 boxes :-)

(does that look like C or what? :-))

Well, a gallon later, we've finally admitted that Nature's Miracle isn't going
to do the trick for our carpet,  I suspect the carpet pad is also responsible
for part of the problem, which is odor (and not stain).  There are one, or maybe
two spots that need some serious attention.

Are there any suggestions for solutions (pun intended) to our problem?  Is
there a carpet cleaning service in the Maynard area that can clean something
like this; that is, carpet that has been seriously urinated upon?  If I don't
get any feedback to the contrary, I guess we'll just have to call local
carpet cleaners and pray, but if anyone can shed any further light on the
subject, I'd appreciate it!

Thanks,
Jill

    My vet sells something called F.O.N. (Feline Odor Neutralizer) and it
    is 99.9% effective in eliminating the odor. Believe me, I have gone
    thru barrels of Nature's Miracle, and while I still believe it is a
    very good product, it is not solving my problem. I have couch cushions
    that are almost 'saturated' with urine. I've been spraying the F.O.N on
    it, and it's 99.9% gone! Which is better than the about 75% with
    Natures Miracle. 
    
    I have also found F.O.N. at cat shows, and it was actually about 75
    cents cheaper than my vet sells it for. You may want to try that.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Cheryl

    
    Hi Jill, 
    
        When I was in college, to help my tuition fees, I used to install
        carpets and linoleum so I dealt with a lot of these cases. 
        If the urine has soaked through the carpet, then shampooing will 
        not get rid of the odor. It might reduce it to a level that us
        humans won't smell it but are four legged friends will. Especially
        if you also have dogs, the odor is so tempting that sooner or later
        they will go back there and do it again. 
        I recommend lifting the rug from that area replacing the pad.
        Especially if it is what they call hair pad instead of the rubber 
        kind. Replace the pad in that area, however before doing so, 
        pour some baking soda on the effected floor,  and allow it to soak
        all the smell (air it out for a few hours or even a day) before 
        puting the carpet back down.  Then a good shampoo will work. 
    
     Shaw

    We just can't seem to get our female cat to do her solid waste either
    outside or in a litter box.  We picked her up at an animal shelter 
    about a year ago, and we are pretty certain that she was mishandled
    or traumitized in the past. The best we have been able to do is to
    spread kitty litter over about a 50 sq.ft. area of the basement and
    she will usually go there, but not always. Sometimes she'll go in
    another corner for a few days straight, sometimes she'll go outside.
    We can't discern a pattern in her behaviour. She has access to the
    outside whenever she wants so that's not the issue. 
    
    Another symptom that may or may not be related is that she sometimes
    vomits imediately after eating (the vet checked this, found nothing
    worng), albeit less often the longer we've had her. She also refuses
    to go into bathrooms. If we take her into a bathroom and put her down
    she'll scramble.
    
    This is one sensitive putty tat - she needs alot of TLC, and she gets
    it too. But somehow I think we should be able to resolve this situa-
    tion.
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Scott  

    I don't have suggestions for the "potty problem" but I do have a 
    little insight into the other.  My Miss Catherine Moffet would upchuck
    after eating. The vet couldn't find anything wrong.  Through observation 
    we found out that when she was angry or frustrated in some evil scheme 
    she would upchuck.  If she didn't have any ammunition handy she would 
    pack her face with dry cat food, wait a moment and then perform.
    
    Guido will sometimes hang one over the rim if the box is dirty or
    I use a brand of litter he dosen't like.  
    
    
    PS.  Miss Moffet left us recently and we'll miss her.  We're pretty 
    certain it was a degenerative heart condition (although the vet didn't 
    mention anything when he saw her recently) don't know if that had 
    anything to do with it.  
    
    

    
            Almost sounds like someone tried to potty train her on the
    toilet when she was younger!  Probably was such a traumatic thing
    she won't even go in a bathroom now.  Are there other cats in the 
    house?  If not,  maybe if she saw another cat using a box, she'd
    realize how easy it is.
    
            Denise and the gang of 10

re: upchucking food - probably because she bolts her food too fast...there
are several approaches to stopping this behavior....if she is not fat, try
free-feeding her dry kibble.  Perhaps when it is always there, there is less
need for bolting the food.  She may also benefit if you place a small heavy
bowl in a large flat bowl and then pack her food around the small bowl...this
makes her "work a bit more" to get the food and she slows down the feeding
frenzy.  At any rate, the symptom is one of fear that she won't get enough
or that she won't get it often enough - and may also be an indicator that
she is simply stressed out.  She may be showing symptoms of her previous
life when food was rare or heavily competed for.

re: kitty training

she may not like the litter....and she may just be confused by smells that
misdirect her.  You must use an enzyme cleaner meant for the purpose of
removing cat waste odors on every spot she has used in the past - and you
may need to treat repeatedly to get it all up.  She can smell it even if
you cannot.  Then, I would get a large kitty tray and try putting the
cat, her food and water, and her tray in a room ( obviously not a bathroom,
but a bedroom, perhaps) and let her try to learn to use the cat tray...and
you might also try a different litter.  You might also bury some of her
waste in the tray to get her smell into it.  Once you have her in a confined
area with the cat tray, she will probably learn to use it.  If she marks in
the house, it may be because there are smells from other cats in the carpet
or floors and she is trying to establish her own presence in the house.  At
that point, giving her a smaller area at first, and then allowing her out
into the big house as she gets more reliable is a good approach.  Of course,
you still must visit with her and cuddle her a great deal so she knows she
is wanted.

One thing to remember, cats are often fearful of the outdoors if they have
been forced out very young.  It is a frightening and dangerous place with
big dogs and other predators around.  If the cat has experienced a trauma
outside, she won't want to leave her scat (waste products) outside where
it can lead predators to her safe haven.  You may very well have to adjust
to her being an indoor-only cat...it sounds as if she is just too fearful
for the outside.  

    Thanks for the replies. I have gained alot if insight from them.
    
    We actually have two cats, one Maya the younger has had no problems of
    that type at all, as she came to us as a kitten. We were hoping that 
    Musch (rhymes with whoosh, the elder) would see Maya using the litter 
    box and pick up the habit herself. Unfortunately she didn't. 
    
    We have cat-doors into every area of the house, so the cats can come
    and go as they please. We find it more convenient for them to estab-
    lish their own rhythm of inside/outside, active/inactive, sleep/aw-
    ake etc. Our yard is walled or fenced in on all sides as we live in
    a town house.  But I have found scat from what must be a very large
    tom cat in our yard from time to time. It is never buried which is
    very un-cat-like. Both cats (females, and small for their age) have 
    been bullied by big toms in the past. I have also noticed what seem
    to be male marking/spraying odors in the basement.
    
    Perhaps it is true, as surmised in .52, that Musch doesn't feel like
    she "owns" her own back yard. It could well be that the same tom 
    that leaves his calling card in the yard has also been entering our
    basement through our cat door.  What in the world can I do about
    this?
   
    Regards,
    
    Scott

    Well, there are cat doors that come equipped with electronic
    collars for the cats.  The door only opens for the cat with the
    collar on.  Other kitties/animals are not supposed to be able 
    to get through.  Might these doors be an option for you to eliminate 
    the unwanted visitor from slipping in?  Once his visitation to the 
    basement (or other parts of the house) is controlled perhaps his scent 
    can be removed with one of the enzyme products available and Musch 
    will feel more comfortable.  I'm not an expert on these doors so I
    don't know how well they work.  Perhaps someone with one can give
    your the specifics.
    
    Jan 

the tom is leaving his scat uncovered because he is dominant...it is
a marking behavior.  That is the seat of part of your problem....the tom
"owns" the yard and your cat feels she is endangered there.  Now, your
problem with her inappropriate marking won't go away until she can feel
safe.   You need to:

	1) prevent the tom from entering your home and spraying - again,
	   he is claiming the area and your cats feel threatened.  If
	   you can get the controlled cat doors, fine.  If not, consider
	   keeping the cat doors closed and controlling the access yourself.
	   If the male keeps up the pressure, he may drive your cats away
	   entirely...after all, he gets no benefit from them as they are
	   spayed.  The only other cats he will tolerate are breedable
	   females.  You might also consider renting/borrowing a
	   humane trap and getting him to a shelter.  He is not going
	   to leave - he has undoubtably learned that he can find shelter
	   and warmth at the very least - and perhaps food??

	2) remove all odor from his spraying - Natures's Miracle or other
	   enzyme cleaner will do the job.

	3) remove all odor from the spots that your cat has used that
	   are inappropriate.

	4) retrain your cat to use the cat box as I previously described.
	   This will only work if the cat isn't competing with other cats
	   for her "place"....I find that my indoor-only cats need almost
	   one cat box/cat (two seem willing to share a box, but the
	   others parcel out the boxes between them).  

your cats behavior of bolting her food is now explained...she is under
stress.  That problem will also stop once the pressure is relieved.

    I need some help to discourage one of my cats from using the carpet in
    one bedroom as a litterbox.
    
    This has been going on for about a year now.  I have two cats, and
    could never narrow down who was the culprit; I finally caught one
    "in the act" this weekend.  This happens on average once a month or
    so, and always feces, never urine.  I suspect now that the carpet is
    marked with her scent which causes her to come back, although I clean
    up what I find immediately and use a carpet cleaner on the spot.  I've
    taken both cats to the vet, and they've both come back with clean bills
    of health.
    
    Here's what I've tried:
    	Enzyme cleaner
    	Keeping the door closed
    	New brand of kitty litter
    	Keeping the litter boxes sparkling clean
    
    The only thing that works reliably is keeping the door closed.  This is
    somewhat impractical since this is my daughter's bedroom and she has to
    go in there sometime.  Any suggestions?  I really don't know what to
    try next.
    
    					Mair
    

    Maybe add another litterbox?  Some cats just don't like
    to share....

    I'd second the extra litter box idea.  Also, you might keep the door
    closed when your daughter is not in the room and open when she is;  I
    assume the cat doesn't use the rug when there's someone in the room...
    

    you could also try placing a bowl of food where the cat use to go
    in the bedroom. Most cats won't go where their food is located!!
    Once the cat loses this nasty behavior...you can remove the food bowl.
    
    

    Animal behaviorists generally recommend one litterbox per cat and
    one extra box.  
    
    I have a cat that does this only she chooses to do it on the carpet 
    near her box.  To the best of my knowledge this is her subtle way of 
    letting me know the box has passed her point of what is considered 
    clean enough.
    
    Jan
    
    

I agree that another box is indicated...and, in case there is a problem
with dominance, move the new box away from the old one...and, to start
the new box off, I would isolate the cat who makes "mistakes" with the
new box until her scent is fimly established in the box..in other words,
give her a chance to claim the box as hers.  If she is kept in a room
with food, water, and her litter box for a few days this will also
"remind" her of where she needs to do her business.  If she fails to
use the new box, then you can try another kind of litter - and begin
to isolate the source of the trouble.  I also STRONGLY suggest you make
sure she isn't suffering recurring bouts of cystitis - as some of us know,
this can be a real problem as it causes the cat to "make mistakes" and
it can be devilishly hard to diagnose until it becomes critical - not
a good idea to wait that long.  Many cats have probably been rejected
due to a medical problem which was perceived as a behavior problem.  Ask
your vet about this, please.

I would discourage her entry into the room where the mistakes have
occurred, and go over the floor once more with the enzyme cleaner...it may
not work the first time unless all surfaces are thoroughly saturated.  Once
you have cleaned again, try keeping some foil over the areas she uses for
awhile - they don't like it. 

    Thanks for the suggestions.  Let me add a bit more information and
    ask a few questions.
    
    The cats are 9 and 8 years old - it is the younger who has the 
    problem.  I do have 2 litter boxes currently.  They are situated
    at opposite ends of a large room in the basement (something like
    12' X 24').  They were content (they put up with?) one box until
    4 years or so ago when I added the second box.  There were a few
    accidents that prompted me to get that second box.  That lasted 
    fine for about 3 years.  
    
    Do I really need a 3rd box, or should I relocate the 2nd one?
    The accidents are always solid, never liquid waste.  Can this be a 
    sign of cystitis?  Done anybody have a good method of getting
    a uring sample from a cat?
    
    Currently we do keep the door closed as much as possible.  She doesn't
    use other spots in the house, so to me it seems deliberate and not
    accidental.  Can it be she just prefers carpet over kitty litter?  Is
    there some other material I can use other than clay litter?
    
    					Mair
    

    Hi Mair,
    
         I currently have 3 cats and 3 boxes, so I'm not quite following
    the regimen either.  My two boys (14 and 11) use the boxes religiously
    (though they don't always cover ;^) ), the elder one has only broken
    training once or twice when he and my then-fiance moved in.
    
         Midnight, the 2-yr-old girl, has always been a problem.  She
    *always* pees in the box but used to have regular solids-not-in-the-
    box problems.
    
         She is better now, although she broke training last week when she
    decided that the bathtub was a much better place than the box (too bad
    it was solid - if it was urine I could just wash out the tub!).  I've
    cured that by putting an inch of water in the tub; she jumped in once
    (and jumped out r-e-a-l quick!) and that was it.  I can now leave the
    bathtub dry.
    
         What "worked" (until the next time ;^) ) for me?  Three boxes (I
    had originally had two), scooping mornings and evenings, box changes
    every week (it should be more offen but finances restrict that) and
    using Tidy Cat Box Deodorizing powder on Wednesdays and Thursday
    mornings (the boxes get changed Thursday nights), just for a little bit
    of help.  Midnight's nose is *very* sensitive.
    
         And one other thing - I notice that she misses the box more when
    my husband and I have arguments, or if we have too many visitors. 
    She's *very* sensitive to her environment.
    
         Hope some of this helps!        
    
    					- Andrea

for some reason, the cat is unhappy with the box - either the other cat is
"claiming" it - or she hates the brand or type of litter you are using...or
she has experienced some startling or frightening thing when defecating
in the box.  Cats aren't rocket scientists - they make strange associations
when they are frightened.  Once, my long-haired male, Sam, got a "clingon"
(a turd stuck to the hair on his rump) and it scared him - he wouldn't
use the box for solid waste until I moved the box - the "scary thing" wasn't
in the NEW box location so he could use the box again.

I would suggest moving the box she normally uses - and again, I think you
need to confine her and the box to a small area so you can focus on
re-training her.  I would also change litter brands if she still isn't
using the box.

re: cystitis causing the problem.  When my cat gets cystitis, she strains
to urinate and, if there is any "ready", she also defecates whereever she
is standing.

    
    
    Okay here is my tale of woe.  I have 4 indoor cats. 3 males and 1
    female. I have 3 big litterboxes. My female cat, Pandora is very 
    fastidious. She refuses to poop in the boxes. I guess she doesn't like
    those nasty boys. Well she poops on the paper right by the boxes so
    I've learned to live with it.
    
    Now for my problem. She now has decided to she doesn't want to pee in
    the boxes. Fortunatly I have linoleum floors under the boxes. I am 
    getting tired of mopping the floors mornings. This habit has been going
    on for about a week. The poop on the paper has been about a year.
    I have not caught her peeing on the floor, but I've seen all the boys
    use the boxes. She is very discriminating.
    
    To complicate the problem she has a chronic rare form of kitty
    dermititis on her paws. It is so rare the vets at the Shrewsbury animal
    hospital had never heard of it. Tufts had to diagnose it. (I couldn't 
    possible spell it). The dermititis causes her paws to swell and crack.
    They are worse in the winter. Currently they are swollen but not
    cracked (i.e. they have been a lot worse). There is no cure. They can
    give her a coritison shot to help the swelling. There is an
    experimental proceedure at Tufts that they can freeze the skin off the
    pads and see it grows back better. I don't want to put her through
    that. She does not appear to be in pain. She runs around like crazy and
    whacks her brothers. 
    
    My guess is the litter bothers her sensitive paws, so she has decided
    not to go in the box. I have tried the Yesterday News stuff and she 
    won't use that either.
    
    Anyone have any suggestions? I now I should bring her to the vets and 
    have her checked for a URI problem, but I don't think that is the
    problem. They are all fed low ash cat food.
    
                                        alice and Pandora
    

    Alice,
    
    Maybe you can create a special kitty box for your female.  Maybe you
    could get a regular kitty box and install a removable screen (for ease
    of cleaning).  Fill the bottom half with kitty litter (something that
    absorbs odors super well since your kitty doesn't like using the box!)
    and fill the top half with cut up newspaper or full sheets of
    newspaper.  Full sheets might be an easier thing to clean up!  Just a
    suggestion!  Hope your babies paws get better soon.
    
    Barb

    I would first contact the vet and just talk to him about your
    kitties litterbox behavior and her paw!!  It is very possible
    that the paw could be causing the behaviour. He might even
    suggest bringing her in to make sure there are no other medical
    problems and that way you will be sure your dealing with just
    the one issue.
    
    Maybe adding another box...and filling it with the fine scoop-away
    litter might help too!!  Or try confining her with her own box...
    and see if the behavior continues!!
    
    Good luck...and keep us posted!!  
    
    Sandy
    
    
    

    The idea of a scren might work, so long as the boys don't use it too.
    She always goes on the newspaper I have surrounding the box. I wouldn't
    dare use the super fine litter that would definately get stuck in the 
    cracks on her paws.
    
    The vets have told me there is very little they can do for her paws.
    The cortisone shots helps some, but it is only temporary. The thought
    of freezing the skin off of her paws doesn't sound too pleasent.
    

    Maybe the motions 

    How about trying shredded paper?

    I would have her checked for a urinary tract infection, just in case. 
    Also, how about a litter box with nothing in it?  Also, are you using
    Nature's Miracle or some similar enzyme cleaner to remove the smell of
    urine where she's gone?  Otherwise the smell will indicate to her that
    that's the place to re-use.
    
    She's lucky to have a caring parent like you.  I'd also think about
    asking about the success rate of that freezing business.  If it were
    anywhere else but her paws (I don't see how the healing process could
    be managed -- would she have to be confined to a large cage?) and it
    has a good success rate, I'd say to consider it.  Freezing off tissue
    is actually painless and while it then looks awful for 2-3 weeks, the
    skin seems to regrow well, at least in humans (I had this done for a
    skin problem myself last year).
    
                                                

    I understand some folks use shavings in her litterbox if the shredded
    paper or soft scoop litter don't entice her to use box.
    
    

    Well, I knew the weather was hot and yucky but I didn't think it would
    cause me to mess up my previous note so bad.
    
    What I meant to say was, I understand some folks use shavings in boxes
    and if the shredded or soft scoop litter doesn't entice her to use the
    box, maybe shavings would.
    
    :-}
    

    Well this weekend I am going scrub the floors the pet odor removers,and
    I am going to line a litterbox with newspaper and see if she go in
    that. I'll update you next week.
    
                                                Alice

    Well I think I have found the solution. Friday I put a litter
    downstairs with just newspaper. Pandora has used it all weekend and
    seems to be happy with it. It is very easy to clean. Just lift out
    the wet paper, rinse and put in more paper. The boys are not the 
    least bit interested in "her" box.

Has anyone ever tried to train their cat(s) to use the toilet?

I sent away for a kit that supposedly will do just this.  It is a plastic
"insert" that fits over the porcelain.  One fills it with litter and the cats
perch on the toilet seat to relieve themselves.  One slowly reduces the amount 
of litter in the pan over a couple of weeks (to discourage digging and covering,
I presume...that's working...pew!!)...and then one day voila, remove the insert 
and the cats will continue to use the toilet.

I am almost at the voila stage, but am apprehensive about removing the insert.  
Does this really work?  Or will I come home from work and find kitty poop all 
over the carpets?

Do I need to hide the insert?  Should I sprinkle litter on the toilet seat 8^)?

    My brothers girlfriend's mom tried this w/ their Siamese.  Apparantly
    having the litter box there was okay, but when she removed it for the 
    viola stage....they wern't too thrilled about going in the toilet. 
    I'll have to tell her you're trying it!
    
    Let us know how it works out!
    
      

    re: .76
    
    When tey use it now, where are their legs?  I mean, when you take out
    the insert, are they going to leap up there and find themselves falling
    in the toilet?
    

Could someone please give me an idea or two on how to deal with this problem?

My wife has had a cat for about nine years and it never had a problem using
its litter box.  However, lately the cat doesn't want to use it when it
urinates.  She is a spayed female approximately 10 years old.  I must admit
that the cat has had alot going on with her life as when we got married she
moved out to my house with some rather large dogs.  Sometimes the dogs will 
chase her but they just seem to be playing.  We thought maybe the dogs were
exciting her so we let the cat stay with a friend for a few months just to
see if it made any difference - it didn't.  When she urinates it is usually 
by the litter box but often not in it.  We have tried moving the box to 
other places in the house as well as giving her her own part of the house  
where the dogs can't get to but that didn't even help.  She has made numerous
trips to the vet and everything was normal.  It seems like our options if
we can't fix this problem are making her an outdoor cat (the coyotes will
get her rather quickly) or having her put to sleep.  My wife has discussed the
later at great length but I know it would dearly break her heart. I am
hoping someone out there has some ideas to try to resolve this problem

Thanks alot,
Ricky

The idea is that the insert is not quite sturdy enough to support their weight,
so they perch on the seat with their bottoms hanging over the litter-filled
insert.  So they get used to climbing on the seat only.

Fargas (the older boy) has taken to it quite well, but Othello (the younger boy)
has NOT.  I've been cleaning up piles and puddles, unfortunately.  I think I'm 
going to have to put it away, and try again when they are BOTH ready.  I'm
disappointed, and had hoped someone here had been successful and could tell me
their hints.

A funny, though...my husband woke up very early Saturday morning and went into
the bathroom...only to see Fargas making use of the facilities.  He was SO
irritated...he actually woke me up to complain that he had to wait in line for
the bathroom in his own house. 8^)

    Ricky,
    Have you changed the type of litter you use?  If not try a different
    one! A new box that is larger might help too.
    Regards from another one with similar problem,
    Karen 

    I've had a similar problem some time back.  The stray we took in about
    three years ago started urinating in, of all places, my living room. 
    We only found out by the odor as she was going behind the sofa.  After
    we found out, we tried everything.  She got a clean bill of health from
    vet, too.  We tried new litter, new spot for box, we even tried putting
    litter box in living room for a while (don't laugh) but had no luck. 
    Then I noticed that the box we unusually wet most of the time.  Back to
    the vets and this time he found "galloping diabetes" with some brain
    damage already done.  We elected to have her put to sleep.  Now the
    current adoptee started to mess on the floor right outside the litter
    box.  He'll urinate in it but the rest goes on the floor.  Took him to
    the vet for a complete check up and he found nothing wrong.  Reminded
    us to try all the above, if we changed type of litter, change back..if
    we moved box, move it back, etc.  We went through the list and had
    success part time.  Then we noticed...he liked the litter box pulled
    out from the wall and he liked it really full.  He also wanted it
    spotlessly clean.  So we scoop it out last thing at night.  The box is
    about 2 feet out from wall, and it's got at least 3-4 inches of litter. 
    Even then, occasionally when the other cat uses it during the night, he
    wants to use the floor.  But he knows he shouldn't!! I get up at 6 and
    if I go downstairs first thing and he goes with me, he heads for
    litterbox.  I follow.. If there's anything in it, he gets in, digs
    around, then climbs out.  At this point I say, "No, Figgie, back in the
    box"... I get a dirty look, but he gets back in and does "his duty". 
    Cats are smart.  Don't give up on your cat if you don't have to.  

    Is she able to use her litterbox without being "annoyed" by
    the dogs/kids/humans/etc?  My mother's cat started going elsewhere
    because he refused to go by where the dog was (bottom of stairs
    leading to basement) to get to the litterbox that was in the basement.
    Change of litterbox location fixed the problem.  Dog used to "annoy"
    the cat......
    
    Cats are easily upset when their routine is interrupted, and
    I'd say that the poor kitty being bounced around from home
    to home, plus meeting 2 new large dogs that don't respect
    her old age (:, plus having to share her human with another,
    have all been thrown at her, and have caused her to break from
    her normally good habits.
    
    Give her a chance to settle in and accept all this change.  
    
    Lynne

   Re .76:
    
   Litter Purrfect
    
   "The concept of sharing the privy with kitty may not thrill you, but many
   cat owners are finding it preferable to living with a litter box.  For
   step-by-step tips on how to get your pet used to the idea, check out
   Smart Cat Productions' instructional videotape, TOILET TRAINING THE
   FELINE, available at pet-supply stores (about $25).  The method, which
   relied on conditioning and a homemade kit, takes about 10 weeks of
   training.  To order the video by mail, send $24.95 to Smart Cat
   Productions, Box 1834, Brookline, MA 02146.
    
   CAT TOILET-TRAINING VIDEO
   Upper Newbury Pet Center
   338 Newbury Street
   Boston
   617.536.2121

   Brookline Grooming
   146 Harvard Street
   Brookline
   617.738.6682"

    re: the cats using the toilet
    
    My sister got me one of these several years ago, but I decided I'd
    rather live with a litter box than worry about whether the seat was
    clean when I go to use the toilet. I already have to clean the toilet
    enough just from human use!
    
    Also, it's took me 5 years to train my other half to put the seat down
    after he used the toilet. Actually, now that I think of it,  all it 
    took was getting a cat and saying we had to make sure to close the lid 
    for the safety of the kitty... :^)
    
    .79 - I'm still laughing at your husband's comment...standing in line!
    
    janetb.
    owned by Merlin and Rascal
    

    I've got a problem with a kitten I have.  This kitten
    will go to the bathroom fine in the box and outdoors,
    but sometimes will just (without warning) urinate on
    our bed.  This is three times now in a month.  What gives?
    Could it be the food I feed it or something?  If this 
    problem isn't corrected soon, I'll have to get rid of it.
    
    Thank you,
    
    Brenda

    I used to have a kitten that did this in the dining room, I think they
    are just trying to establish their own little piece of territory.  Try
    keeping him out of the bedroom for a while and see if this stops or he
    does it else where - at least then you can tell if it is something in
    your bedroom he is trying to cover over.
    
    Sharon

I agree with the last note... At my mom's house, we had a cat that 
started to wet the bathmat in front of the tub, so we started to
pick it up off the floor, and didn't have a problem elsewhere.

But if she wet in an unexpected place more than once in a day or two,
it was a sign that she had a urinary tract infection, and a perscription
from the vet cured her. 

It's amazing how when a cat has a problem, they are so obvious in trying
to tell you.  When my shelter cat Caylith got tapeworms after having had
feas, she would mess on the floor right in front of the box (which is 
covered).  And my mom's cat a couple of times found an obvious place 
(a laundry basket, the tub, that I remember)... to leave a puddle when 
she didn't feel right.  

BTW, as far as food goes -- my mom's cat Bunky was half-persian, half-stray 
(mama got out) and was fed a mix of grocery store food until she was much older, 
and was occasionally prone to this problem over the years.  The vet blamed 
it on the high ash content in some foods.  My longhaired girl is only two so far,
but has been on the "gormet" drys  (Science Diet and the like), and I haven't 
run into this problem; and her coat is shiny!

-Tanya

    Thank you for those two replies.  She doesn't go anywhere else.
    I never thought about the territory thing.  We have another cat,
    and maybe this is Nicky's way of marking her territory.
    
    Regards,
    
    brenda

    We have 4 cats and one that would, on occasion, use the bed in the
    spare room. The problem was boiled down to a dirty litter box. As soon
    as HE felt the box was dirty, he'd use the bed. As soon as we cleaned
    it, he'd stop.
    
    Steve

    First I will give a quick scenerio.....My Mom had 2 cats.  She moved
    into a retirement community and the "rules" let her keep only one, so
    New Years Eve I brought home Feather.  I already had a cat & dog, but
    Feather fit in with very little resistance.  To date, everyone gets
    along.  No problems except one.....Feather insists on urinating on the
    floor.  She does it in the same spot every time (bathroom linoleum,
    same room as the litter box). Oh, I should mention both cats are indoor
    cats.  I live on a very busy highway, and no animals seem to last
    unless they are restrained.  Anyway....I have disciplined her and tried
    to persuade her to "pee" in the box. (I do not use force.  I am very 
    much against abuse, we just have a stern talk, I show her the mess and
    then put her in the box)  I have been trying to figure out "WHY" she's
    doing it and "HOW" to get her to use the box. 
    
    When I first brought her home she was good.  Then she started this.  I
    have ruled out the type of litter, because one day she "pee'd" on the
    floor and not 10 minutes later went into the box and did her "poops".
    I also thought it was because in her mind the box was "dirty".  I 
    constantly remove the "poops" and clean the box completely every other
    day.  When I completely clean the box, she will use it for the first
    3 to 4 times, then she refuses to.  There's no reason for it because
    the box isn't that "dirty".
    
    I am getting very disgusted.  I do not want to get rid of her...she is
    a sweetheart, but I have to fix the problem and I am running out of
    ideas.  Please....if anyone has any suggestions/remedies, or has had
    a similiar problem, please share.......Thank you
    
                                          Dee
    

    Dee,
    
    I think if you scan through the notes here in FELINE you will find lots
    of folks have dealt with a similar situation ...and you'll find lots of
    suggestions.
    
    I would try the simplest thing first.   Some cats don't like to use
    the same box for both duties.  ..Try adding a second litterbox and see
    if that solves the problem.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Linda

    Awhile back there was a good article in Cat Fancy on how to deal
    with this problem.  If you'd like a copy of the article just sent
    me a note off-line!   Also this file has multiple ideas!!
    
    Some thoughts:
    
    Has the cat been to the vet....it could possibly be an infection!! 
    Have you cleaned the spot she used with an emzyne cleaner. (Natures
    Miracle)  Can you put a second litter box...right where she is
    currently going??   
    
    I had a similar problem with my J.C....he peed on my carpet in
    my bathroom...but sure enough a weeks later he can down with
    an urinary infection.   
    
    Sandy   
    

    anyone with any ideas on this ??????????

    It appears one of the cats (of the 6 in the house) has loose stools/
    diarrhea (day before yesterday was really loose, yesterday not so bad)...
    I brought yesterday's "sample" to the vet but they found nothing in it 

    We THINK we know which cat it is, so the vet's going to give me something
    to give her to help stop the diarrhea but since there's no parasite or
    infection in the stool, I'm wondering what else could be causing it.
    None of the other cats *seem* to have the problem - the main way we know
    this one does is because of "messes" on the floor - seems she'll use the
    litter box up to a point then doesn't want to use it anymore, does her
    "poop" on the floor...................

    I've cleaned the box more frequently thinking that might be the problem
    but it doesn't seem to matter .......  it also just seems to be in "our"
    room that she has her "accidents", none in the other rooms with other
    litter boxes...............I've washed the area down with disinfectant 
    cleaner but still the problem occurs.........

    Any ideas ???????
    Debbi & the menagerie

    Otis weighs 18+ pounds and Dr. Moss said that he needs to lose weight.
    My way of controlling the situation (he's not supposed to lose more
    than 1 pound a year) was to cut out the treats.
    
    He hasn't had Bonkers (his favorite) in two weeks.  I picked up a 
    box last night and he *devoured* 8 of them (I think ... he was eating 
    them so fast I lost count) then he had diarreah this morning.  I guess
    his system can't tolerate them like before.
    
    I remember one of the vets saying that Tender Vittles has a "binding"
    agent in it.  I always keep some on the shelf - just in case.  So,
    not knowing for sure that it was the Bonkers, I gave him his breakfast
    in spoonfuls just in case his whole system was upset.  He kept that
    down - I gave him a handful of Tender Vittles and I'll check the
    litter box when I get home from work tonight.
    
    Obviously, persistent diarreah should be checked out by the vet.
    So, unless he has diarreah for 24 hours I am going to assume that
    the Bonkers was just to rich for his digestive tract.
    
    Then - I heard Tiffany puking around 4:30 ... her bowl of Purina
    Cat Chow had run out and she decided to eat some of the Basil plant
    I had in the kitchen.  THAT was too rich (I guess) but it got my
    attention and she had a nice bowl of fresh water and a full bowl 
    of Purina Cat Chow.  With Abigail still in the hospital - all I
    would need is to have Otis and Tiffany in there too.  Doesn't rain
    but it pours.
    
    M
    

    You might want to have the stools checked again in a few weeks!!
    Sometime it is very difficult for vets to find parasites in the
    stool and it might take a few tries!!
    
    For an occasional bout of diarrhea...I use canned pumpkin as my
    remedy.  This idea was given to me by the surgeon at Tufts University
    for Van gogh!!  It is truly amazing when I add just a pit of pumpkin
    to his cat food...the diarrhea usually disappears in a day!!!
    
    Or...could you have changed litter???   I never had a problem until 
    a few weeks ago (stupid me) decided to change my litter brand and
    Van Gogh thanked me by pooping on his bed two nights in a row!! We're
    going back to our original litter!!
    
    Sandy

                <<< Note 27.96 by MAGEE::MERRITT "Kitty City" >>>

>    You might want to have the stools checked again in a few weeks!!
>    Sometime it is very difficult for vets to find parasites in the
>    stool and it might take a few tries!!
       Will talk with the vet's office tonight when I pick up med -
       what med is, what they think problem is, etc.....will definitely
       bring another sample if problem continues........
    
>    For an occasional bout of diarrhea...I use canned pumpkin as my
>    remedy.  This idea was given to me by the surgeon at Tufts University
>    for Van gogh!!  It is truly amazing when I add just a pit of pumpkin
>    to his cat food...the diarrhea usually disappears in a day!!!
       Interesting idea - maybe we'll give this a try another time.  I
       wonder if the canned pumpkin contains something the same as the
       med they're giving me ???
    
>    Or...could you have changed litter???   I never had a problem until 
>    a few weeks ago (stupid me) decided to change my litter brand and
>    Van Gogh thanked me by pooping on his bed two nights in a row!! We're
>    going back to our original litter!!
    
       I already thought of this one, but if it was the case, would she
       be using the box *sometimes* but not all the time ???  I've also
       wondered if she's just more particular than the others but where
       it's only the box in "our" room (4 of the cats all share food/water
       and litter box in "our" room and also share the litter box in my
       roommate's room - no problem there) and I'm cleaning that more often
       than the others, ????  Also, we've been varying which litter since
       the beginning, since there didn't seem to be a preference, I get
       whatever's best-price/been used before at the time........

    When I changed litter recently...Van Gogh would use his box
    for both pee and poop during the day...but use the bed at night to
    poop on only.  I'm not sure what statement he was making...but I got 
    his point and we are back to our original litter. (no problems since!)
    
    I'm not sure what is in the pumpkin...but darn I know it works!!!  If
    you do buy this...make sure you get the one that states "ingredients:
    Pumpkin only".    When I first bought it...I got the one with all the
    spices...and VG didn't appreciate it to much!!
    
    Diarrhea can be the result of many things..have you changed the diet
    recently????   Some cats have sensitive stomachs and can't deal with
    the switching of brands or some ingredients in certain foods.  Marilyn
    made this point with Otis and his bonkers!!!!  I also hear Tender
    Vittles was good for diarrhea too!!!
    
    Sandy
    

    
    
    
    my cats gets diarhea whenever I feed them canned catfood.  Do you feed
    them canned food?
    
    MIchele

...... well, we narrowed it down to one of the girls and she's now on 
medication - the vet's office said that it may be ? coxcidia ? (sp?) which
is hard to detect in the stool because it's so small - she (Patches) had
one whole pill on Friday night and gets 1/2 pill a day for the next 9 days......

the good news - no mess on the floor last night or this morning  !!!!

now all we have to do is watch the others to make sure it hasn't been passed,
if it is what the vet suspects - from what they said, it can pass from one
cat to another because of sharing the litter box...........

    I was just reading your article about spraying problems.  I have a cat
    that is 9 1/2 years old neutor since he was a kitten.  He just started
    spraying 1/2 a year ago.  I should also mention that he is an outside 
    cat.  Some other enviroment solutions  one could try is that cats do
    not like the smell of lemons, I found that a 1 part water and 1 part
    lemon juice solution to clean the area he sprayed helped solve the
    problem.  Other suggestions I received were, place tin foil in the area
    where the cat is spraying.  Or use moth balls.
    
                                                         Jo-Anne 
    

    I have three female spayed cats (all about 6 yrs. old) that are mostly
    indoor cats.  I do let them out in the yard on nice weekends.  My
    problem is they are urinating in their box but so close to the sides
    that I feel I am constantly cleaning up outside their boxes.  (I have
    two that are cleaned out in the morning and just before bedtime.)
    I've just purchased a "super" litter box - with high sides and a top
    and they seem to "hit" it just where the top and bottom meets and
    I'm still cleaning up around the outside.  Help!!!
    
    

    I have one cat that does that too.  He's elderly and I think has a
    little joint pain.  Try getting a Bouda Box, one with a cover.  In my
    case it had to be the giant economy size, but it worked.  The only
    problem now is that I have to keep washing down the inside back of the
    box because that's where the urine hits.

    I occasionally have the same problem with my cats "missing" the
    litterbox and getting urine around the sides.  I remedied it by
    buying a plastic mat and putting it underneath the litterbox. 
    The mat is the one you use for draining dishes on.  Buy a big 
    enough one to cover all sides.  When they have an accident, it 
    won't ruin your floor or leave a smell.
    
    good luck,
    Pam

    Rosie does this from time to time - she's four now, but has done it for
    most of her life. It doesn't seem to matter how clean the litter is,
    either. I've got a few cut-offs of the floor vinyl which I place under
    the box, with some sheets of newspaper to soak up any accidents. 
    
    I don't know why she does it - she seems to position her little rear
    end right up against the wall of the box and shoots out a stream right
    over the edge and across the floor. I caught her once and shouted at
    her without thinking, and she jumped so much, the stream went even further 
    than usual.
    
    It might be an idea to change the litter more frequently to see if
    that's the problem. My mother's fussy, spoiled cat Becky deliberately
    goes outside the box if the litter doesn't meet her high standards of
    hygiene. We're talking practically sterile, here! 

    
    	I had one cat who would step into the box, back up her hind
    	end (over the edge) and deliberately pee/poop just outside.
    	I tried endless varies of litter until I hit upon one particular
    	brand of the scoopable stuff. As long as I kept to box clean we 
    	didn't have any further problems. 
    
    	She just didn't like the clay litter. Funny thing is, she used the
    	clay litter for 2 years before she decided she didn't like it. I've
    	found that all of my cats have hated the green chlorophyll stuff.
    
    	Heidi
    

    My Bogie use to dig a nice hole...put his front feet in the hole...
    and poop over the edge.   We solved this problem (most of the time)
    by buying a HUGE litterbox, well actually it's not even a littebox,
    it's a huge plastic box that is used to store sweaters!!  He
    only has a problem on occasion now.
         
    Sandy

    
    We use a child's wading pool, and there's still an occasional
    "over-the-side".  (Of course, it's only the taller cats that
    can accomplish this.)  It seems that most animals position themselves
    according to where the head is as much as anything.  I've seen
    it with larger animals, too -- which explains those auxilliary
    dung piles a llama-length away from the main dung pile.
    High sides and lots of space seem the way to go with litter boxes.
    
    Ron

    Kelsey hates getting litter on his fur.  He always backs up right to
    the corner of the box and pees on the plastic liners.  A box with high
    sides solved the problem of runover pee.  He's really fastidious about
    his litterbox habits; too bad he doesn't take the same care in grooming
    himself!
    
    -Roberta, Mom to Kelsey the ratty looking Ragdoll
    

    When Amelia went from relatively slim cat to fat cat I used to have
    this problem.  She just didn't seem to stand in the box right any
    more and I'd find puddles outside the box.  Getting covered boxes
    helped.  Now she has to position herself inside the box.  No choice.
    No puddles either though, like another noter, I find I'm having to
    wipe down the sides of the cover now and again.
    
    Jan

    
    Boy, this discussion makes me ever so thankful all my "little ones" are
    properly potty trained...for which I can take no credit, they seem to
    have been born that way.
    
    len.
    

    I need some help with a problem which has just come up with one of my
    cats.  Miss Sarah Vaughan, a spayed female who is almost 2 years old
    recently started dumping her load on my clothes on a love seat in my
    bedroom, as opposed to the kitty litter box which she has always used
    faithfully.  At first I thought that she had diarrhea and had an
    accident, but she has done this 3 times now, the last time last night
    right in front of me as I lay in bed reading.  I could not believe my
    eyes.  I cleaned up every time after this "accidents", so I don't think
    she is sniffing out her previous "presents".  By the way, this love
    seat is about 8 feet away from the litter box, which is in the next
    room (bathroom).  I did go away the week before last, and left her and
    her brother in the care of a kitty sitter for 5 days, so I am wondering
    if maybe she is trying to mark her spot on my clothes.  (I read this in
    some cat book!?!)  Her "brother" Count Basie is doing fine, business as
    usual.  The only other factor, besides the heat, is that she doesn't
    seem as happy as usual, no purring noises lately, and she isn't hanging
    out with me as much as she used to.
    
    Any suggestions as to what I should do?  The only other time she had an
    accident was when she was a tiny kitten, and she had worms.  Is she
    trying to tell me something?  Does she need to go to the vet??
    Any ideas or opinions and advice would be greatly welcome.  Thanks in
    advance.  (Maybe she is trying to teach me what my mother never could-
    PICK UP YOUR CLOTHES!!!!)
    

    
    
    Cats usually only do this if there is something wrong. Now this maybe
    anything from , litter box needs cleaning, to them being unhappy about
    a change in their life, (new addition to the family) to health
    problems. So if there hasn't been any obviouse changes in her life, 
    a vet visit might be helpful. Want thing for sure she is not doing this
    just to be rude. ;-)
    
    Shaw
    

    You know my Timothy William is doing the same thing.  Except on the new
    carpet in front of the living room door.  I know that the change in our
    new routine is bothering him.  One I am working longer hours and the
    biggest change has been that he is no longer allowed to go outside.
    
    He goes out when I am sure that his life, and Anastacia's is not in
    danger.  We have some problems with the family who live next door to us
    and since they moved in they have threatened the lives of my cats.
    
    Yes threats to kill etc.....  don't worry we are working on this and
    it is hard for me right now to keep them in.  But I agree with .113
    that changes in enviroment or habits can throw them off.  His box is
    clean and he still insists on presents in the form of brown clumps. Ugh
    I just get so annoyed.....  So now I give him just a tad more attention
    and he needs to sleep with me at night.  I didn't allow that because
    there is so much of a queen size bed and me that can accomodate all
    eight felines......   This hasn't stopped him from constantly talking
    at me or dumping, but the vet did indicate he is healthy as a horse,
    but misses his romps with his Love Anastacia and wants to go out.
    
    I cannot wait until these people move, life is stinky right now.  No
    pun intended...

    I need your advice to help me solving a serious problem I'm having with
    my cat Mumu who is a 12 year spayed male. He was used to go and have
    wee wee sometimes in the house which was already a big problem but
    I have adopted Aliocha, a young Sacred of Burma lady cat, 3 months ago
    (she is 6 months now) and Mumu started then to go and have wee wee
    everyday and everywhere in the house, two to three times a day.
    I took him to the vet who suggested a few drops of Dipiperone against
    anxiety. It worked during 3 weeks but now the problem is back again 
    and when I called the vet, he said he had no solution !!
    By the way Mumu seems to like Aliocha. He is not aggressive with her
    and they often sleep together either on my bed or on the sofa.
    I really don't know what to do and you can imagine that the situation
    is very tricky.
    I would very much appreciate your help.
    
    Sacha

    Well, first of all you have to get rid of the original urine smell.
    Have you used an enzyme cleaner on the spots that she's going on?
    Many people recommend a product called Nature's Miracle.
    
    Even though the anti-anxiety drugs maybe helping, she's probably
    drawn to the spots where she's gone before.
    
    Another thing to try and covering the spots that's she's peed on
    with tin foil, then putting her food bowl over the spot.  Cats
    don't like to pee where they eat.
    
    Good luck!
    Pam

         Also, is Aliocha spayed yet?  Her sexual maturity might be causing
    Mumu to act up; even though he is neutered, having an intact female
    around may be stressful to him, and he'll act it out.
    
    					- Andrea

    I definitely agree with the other suggestion and if that doesn't
    work, I would suggest caging Mumu for awhile or atleast keeping
    him confined to a very small room with a litterbox and food. Normally
    when they are confined to a small area they start using the litterbox
    once again.   Then you could slowly start introducing him to the
    rest of your house.
    
    Sandy
    

    Has a bladder infection been ruled out?
    Karen

    o The vet has confirmed he has no bladder infection.
    
    o He uses the litterbox too and/but also a lot of different
      places in the house
    
    o Aliocha is not spayed at the moment
    
    o I'll try the tin foil put on the spot and put his food on it
    
    o I have no place in my house (in fact it's a flat) where I could
      put Mumu alone for a while !
    
    o He is sharing the litterbox with Aliocha. This could may be
      be a problem !?
    
    Thank you for your kind advice and your help
    
    Sacha
    
    

    I would definitely try two litterboxes because some cats
    just don't like to share!!  Using an Emyzne cleaner such
    as Natures Miracle is also a must on the old spots he
    peed!!
    
    Sandy

    Where to buy ENZYME CLEANER?

    any pet store would have it. If you could tell us where you are
    located, we might be able to pin point a store for you.
    
    Deb

    Merrimack,NH.... thanks!

Has anyone had any experience using the product Trail for eliminating 
odors caused by cats peeing in the basement?  I had originally intended to
buy several gallons of Natures Miracle but was told that this was better 
for cement.  The price for one gallon was $24.99 versus $26.99 for NM plus
you mix Trail with water so you get far more for your money so I bought it.
Now I hesitate to use it because the bottle only talks about kennels.  
There is no way I can pour the stuff on the affected areas and keep the 
cats from walking around it.  I worry about them walking in it and then 
getting sick or worse.  NM is suppose to be totally safe, but it's soooo
expensive and I have two very large areas that need to be cleaned.

The cat causing the problem will be placed in a cat playpen while I am 
treating the areas and will probably have to re-train him to use a litter 
box.  I have run out of rooms to confine my other cats plus one of them 
lives in the basement.  She is very shy and usually comes out only at meal 
time and is very difficult to catch.  I need to be able to use something safe.  

    Sorry, no experience with Trail but we're ready to buy stock in
    Nature's Miracle.  By the way, Just for Pets Superstore has NM for
    $22.55 a gallon - good deal, but do they sell it by the barrel??
    
    After years of off and on trying to cure Penny of urinating and
    defecating on the carpet (originally by the litter boxes, but more
    recently in our bedroom) we went to the vet for help.  He agreed with
    our conclusion that it was due to her status at the bottom of the
    pecking order (we have 2 other cats) and that there weren't any good
    solutions, since we can't give her a box of her own without keeping her
    in a room of her own.  His only suggestion, short of giving her a new
    home, was to try the drug Ovaban, hoping it would calm down her
    stressful situation and allow her to use communal boxes.  I thought
    there had been info in this conference on Ovaban, but I can't find it
    now; any pointers would be helpful. The big problem with Ovaban is that
    it really increases the risk for diabetes, with increasing risk as time
    goes on.  Needless to say, this isn't a good situation.  If we're
    lucky, we can stop the Ovaban and she will still use the boxes. 
    Otherwise, all we can hope for is that she will learn to use a box
    so that we can find her a new home with no other cats, if we can find
    one. Otherwise what?  Back to the shelter, or the bathroom...
    
    She has been on the Ovaban for about two weeks now; we have been
    letting her out of her confinement and trying to keep an eye on her
    (very difficult!), but haven't seen her using (or not using) the box.
    [She does use it consistently when confined with it in the bathroom].
    
     Does anyone have any good or bad experiences to relate with Ovaban, or
    pointers for more info?  I haven't seen anything in Cat Fancy either,
    going back a few years (but their index leaves a bit to be desired). 
    Any other support or advice would also be appreciated. 
    
    Thanks,
    Bill (and Jill)
    
    

    Louie Ananda Bliss-Cat, Fur-face, Fish-breath.  (Lou-ba-do lovely big
    ginger purr face).
    
    Stays in at night for safety and environmental reasons.  Up at the very
    crack of dawn (4:55am here now in Sydney), and WAKES ME UP!  He used to
    do gentle kisses, now he gets his paw under the front door and RATTLES
    it.
    
    If I shut the hall door or bedroom door, he claws at the carpet (wool)
    and makes a fur ball out of it!
    
    He wants OUT, and so far in his life of 2.5 years, I have gotten up at
    dawn and let him out.  (He goes next door to play with black and white
    Billy who DOESN'T stay in at night..shame)
    
    I thought he would grow out of this.  I am getting a bit impatient.
    
    Does any one have any suggestions?
    
    I have tried late dinners the night before.  No change.  He does have a
    cat box, so it's not a poo issue.
    
    I would like to sleep in!
    
    Thanks
    Eedra

    
    re. 127
    
    I don't know if you can modify your window or door. If you can,
    how about installing a pet door, so he can come and go as he pleases, 
    without your cooporation? We had a pet door put up 8 years ago for
    our 2 older cats and it works well.
    
    
    Eva

    And they also sell the pet doors with an electronic device on it
    and it comes with a device to place on the cats collar so that 
    would be the only pet to have access to the door.... cool idea!
    You can actually get more devices for any other pets also.
    
    SueJ

    
    <-- Oh, that reminds me of Chris Eastland's story about his cat Farnham
        wearing the special magnetic collar and picking up all sorts of
        metal flotsam and jetsam to drag about 8^).
    

    re .129
    
    I would never do it. For the cat gets used to the opening flap, and
    then once the battery fails, or the equipment gets damaged, and the
    poor kitty weeps the whole night long in front of a door which does not
    open and kitty does not know why and kitty thinks it is not allowed to
    go in any more and...
    
    Maybe it sounds funny. But I know a family who threw that darn thing
    into the trashbin as they came from theatre in one evening and found a
    half-frozen kitty weeping in the snow before the petdoor which did not
    open for some obscure hardware problem. Install a normal catflap. Let
    electronics be a human issue - for we can solve hardware problems. Cats
    think another way.
    
    
    Nat

    Cat door is a great idea (I agree with the non-electronic variety), but
    I dont _want_ my cat to come and go as he pleases.  You see, cats are
    very foreign to our native animals in Australia, and most of thier 
    environmental damange is a night.
    
    Hense the curfew.  And the urgency of a dawn departure from the warm,
    safe house.
    
    Looking forward to other brilliant sollutions.  (It was 5:30am this
    morning!)
    
    Thanks,
    
    Eedra

    
    OK. This could be a fun problem to solve. ;-);-) So, you want
    a pet door on a timer, like a bank vault! I think it is feasible
    to make one yourself, all the parts can be bought. 
    
    Are there any gadget expert out there? A timer, a switch, a
    solenoid, a pet door with magnetic closure and something else...
    
    
    Eva  

You'd think there'd be something like the outdoor light next to my front door.
I leave it switched on all the time, but the light turns off automatically 
when the sun comes up and goes on automatically when the sun goes down.  I have
no idea where you might find a cat door on the same principal but it would 
be worth going to your newspaper's Action Line for help.

			SQ

    
    OOOH what a terrible story regarding electronic door !!!
    Definately a regular one.. they also have different varietys
    that lock...when the need is there..
    
    Has anyone ever installed one??? Im looking into getting one.
    IS it an easy installation?
    
    SueJ

    Hi all you fellow cat lovers.  I have a 4 year old male nuetered cat
    named Higgins that has brought me so much love and affection over the 
    past 4 years. 
    
    He's been acting and looking a little strange lately and was thinking
    one of you might have had this type of problem with your furball.
    
    He all of a sudden went to the bathroom in the house, something he
    never did before. Twice in 1 24 hour period.  He took my scatter
    rugg in the bathroom, folded the corners neatly over the poop and
    went on his merry way. I did not scold him.  He must have been sick
    or something.
    
    Now, I looked at his eyes the next morning and the layer of thin
    skin that cats have below there bottom eye lid was up half way
    over his eyes and has continued to stay looking like that now for
    4 days.  I have not brought him to the vets as he is acting very
    frisky and is eating good etc.
    
    any ideas?
    
    Also, I just moved to the Westminster Ma. area and am looking for a
    new Vet (maybe sooner than I think)
    
    regards to all you cat lovers out there.
    
    Paula
    

Contact your vet and see what he says.

    I would definitely contact your vet because once your cat
    displays those symptoms....he most likely has some 
    infection in his body or another medical problem.  Cats
    are SO good at hiding their sickness/pain that when they
    do start showing signs...they definitely need help.
    
    Your vet really is the only one that can determine the actual
    cause of the problem and start treatment right away.   I live
    in the area and use the Fallon Animal Clinic in Lunenburg.  The
    vets are great, kind, caring humans and have successfully
    treated many of my animals.
    
    I also have heard many wonderful things about Central Animal
    Hospital in Leominster.
    
    Good luck...and keep us posted.
    
    Sandy  

    ..and I continue to use Lancaster Animal Hospital even though
    I now live an hour away.  
    
    Sue

    Dr. Mulcahy (and for that matter Drs. Moss and Butler) at Central
    Animal Hospital in Leominster are "the best" as far as I'm concerned--
    especially with cats.  The phone number is 508-537-0239.  Tell them
    Chris and Sandy from Sterling recommended Dr. Mulcahy!

    That skin that you describe in the eyes...
    those are called "hawes"  as in "the hawes are up".
    This is a definate sign of something not right. Of course
    it could be a one day "bug" or something.  But cats do put them
    up when they don't feel well.
    Karen

    All seven of my kitties go to Central Animal Hospital.  Dr. Mulcahy is
    their doctor and I can't say enough good things.  All three of the
    doctors are wonderful and very caring.  Give them a try ... you won't
    be sorry.
    
    Donna
    

    Thanks for all the imput so far.  this is great.  I am going to call
    Dr. Mulcahy right away.  after all, Higgins is worth it!
    
    thanks again,
    
    Paula

    	I have a question that I hope someone out there cam help me with.
    Let me set the scenario. I have one kitten 6 months named Lucky. Great
    little girl, friendly, outgoing, playfull etc. Tricia and I felt that
    sometimes when we would go out for an evening and come home the next
    day, that it wasn't fair to Lucky to leave her alone for a day and it
    began to bother us so we decided to get her a little brother.
    
    	 Welcome to the family Shadow. Seven week old pure black, blue eyed
    fur ball. The first night we had him he was a great little guy, no
    crying, freindly and playfull. One of the first things we did when we
    got him home was show him where the kitty litter was. His first
    reaction was to GET OUT! He didn't seem to like it at all. I left it
    for that night and just put some paper down and let him go on that and
    he seemed pleased. BUT, I felt that he would start to get the idea
    after the next few times I put him in there but to no avail. He likes
    to go almost where ever he wants. Yesterday, it looked like he was
    going to go so I took him downstairs and put him in the box and he went
    after a little coaxing. This morning I got up and he had gone in the
    corner across from the box?
    
    	I wonder if it is the smell from Lucky he's uncomfortable with, if
    it's the type of litter(scoopable) that we use or if maybe he is still
    too young? 
    
    	If anyone has had this experience or has any comments or opinions
    they would be greatly appreciated.
    
    
    						Thanks,
                     
    					Wade, Tricia, Lucky and Shadow
    		

    My opinion is since he is ONLY 7 weeks old...your house may be
    way too big for him.   I would recommend putting him in a small
    room (bathroom) with his litterbox...until he gets use to using
    it.   I would definitely do this when you aren't home or when
    your sleeping.   Give him a nice big stuff animal to keep him 
    company.
    
    7 weeks old is very young...and he probably shouldn't have been
    taking away from his Mom at such an early age.   
    
    Sandy

    A bunch of things could be responsible.  A trip to the vet to be sure
    he doesn't have a urinary tract infection is in order.  However, with
    two cats you should generally have at least two litter boxes (some cats
    don't feel comfortable sharing, and many cats require two separate
    boxes, one to urinate in and one for stools.)  Also, if your house is
    relatively large, kittens will need boxes that are conveniently close.
    You also want to clean the non-litterbox areas that he's gone in with
    an enzyme-based cleaner like Nature's Miracle, available from pet
    stores or vets, to remove the smell which will reattract him to that
    place (he can smell it although you may not be able to).
    
    Some cats will not use perfumed litter or have other litter
    preferences.
    
    With my four cats, I have a litter box in almost every room, half of
    the boxes have unperfumed no-dust Cat Country in them, and half are
    the small polished stone/diaper-type lined Sweet Pee boxes, which are
    the only ones one of my cats will use.
    
    I am not a fan of scoopable litter, since it has been associated with
    some respiratory problems. esp. in small kittens.
    
    First, I'd have your new kitty (congratulations!) checked by the vet,
    and I'd add at least one litter box.

    By the way, since he is so young, be sure to check around
    your house for things potentially dangerous to small kittens,
    that he might get trapped in, etc.
    

    one thing that I would add to this is that a often a little seven week
    old kitten can't crawl into a regular size litter pan (especially with
    a full bladder). For a little while, try using something like a pie
    pan.
    
    Deb

    We had a 1 yr old cat when we decided to get a kitten to be a playmate. 
    She used the litter tray from the minute we brought her home until two
    weeks later when I went on a course.
    
    My husband called me the second night to say that she had started going
    all over the house and just wouldn't use the tray no matter what he
    tried.  The only thing I could suggest was that he went and bought
    another tray.
    
    He did this the next day and the problem was solved immediately.  They
    don't stick to their own trays, not being a cat I have no idea how they
    decide which tray to use but atleast they use them.
    
    Kirsty

    Kirsty...is it possible since you were away that your hubby
    didn't "clean" the box as good as you normally would????
    That could definitely cause a litterbox problem to start.
    
    I have ONE kitty, J.C. who needs a spotlessly cleaned litterbox...
    or he won't use it.   He just paces back and forth...until you
    clean it for him.
    
    Sandy 

    
    My cats are kind of particular about the litter situation.  
    They don't like any of the scented litter, ah, they simply won't
    use it (they'll brave the cold and go outside!). They like to have 
    their own litter box, no sharing please! If the litter gets too 
    messy for their taste, they'll go nuts digging up the whole box 
    trying to cover the stuff! 
    
    I'd try a second box for the kitten and clean it everyday. 
    
    Eva

    
    
    	I'd like to thank everyone very much for all your comments and
    suggestions. Just to update you on Shadow's problem, we took him to the
    Vet yesterday for his first examination and shots. The Vet began by
    saying he wasn't as old as we were led to believe. Since his eyes
    hadn't yet turned from blue to yellow she (the Vet) said he's probably
    about 5-6 weeks old. The first thing we brought up was his not so great
    elimination problems and that it has been runny for the last 4 or 5
    days. Some of the suggestions she gave us were exactly the same as some
    of the ones I received right here on the notes file. One was first get
    him his own litter box, secondly put him in a fairly small room on his own
    for the first 12 hours with just the litter box and maybe a couple of
    toys to keep him company. Also, we had to make him fast for those 12
    hours to try and clean his system out.
    
    	We tried this yesterday after we got him home and put him in our
    small upstairs bathroom with his new litter box and a couple of toys
    and water. It was tough! He cried and cried until he finally fell
    asleep. We checked in on him once in a while, played with him and
    cuddled him just to make him feel not quite as alone. You could see he
    was going in his litter and there was nothing on the floor. When Tricia
    got home frome work at 11 P.M. she let him out and fed him some food
    the Vet had given us and he ate it up in no time.
    
    	She brought both Shadow and Lucky to bed with her and also Shadow's
    litter box and closed them in the room with us for the night. When I
    got up this morning, there was no mess on the floor of the bedroom so
    that was nice to see. One thing I forgot was something else the Vet
    gave us to clean the carpet with to get rid of his scent so he wouldn't
    want to go in those area's again. That was another suggestion by one of
    the experienced noters. When I was having breakfast, I was watching
    Shadow and noticed it looked like he was trying to find a place to go
    to the washroom. He sniffed in his regular places where we had cleaned
    with the de-scenting and he walked away and began looking for a new
    place. This was very discouraging! I kept my eye on him and once I
    realized he was going to go, I picked him up and carried him to the top
    of the stairs and put him down. Once I did that, he ran down the stairs
    and sniffed around his box and finally hopped in and went.
    
    	I don't know if that is an encouraging sign or if we will always
    have to watch him and put the idea in his head to go to his litter. The
    Vet said to keep putting him in the small room with his litter and toys
    when we're not home until he gets the idea. She said if we don't get
    him trained now we may end up having a dirty kitty and we would have to
    decide what to do then. I could never never have him put down just
    because of that, but by the same token, how would you live with it.
    
    	Any more suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.
    
    				One nervous owner,
    
    					Wade

    Wade...he's still so young and really was taken away from his
    mom too early.   With a little more time...he'll learn to use
    the litterbox with no problems. Cats don't like to be dirty....    
    
    When you do put him in his "room"...try to find a nice big fluffy
    stuffed animal to keep him company.   Atleast he can cuddle with
    it and pretend it's his mom....
    
    Sandy 

If you're not going to keep him in his room or within near paw shot
of it all the time  - Get him an upstairs and downstairs box!
(or whatever combination is needed so he's never far from one!) 

He obviously hasn't got his spatial relations sorted and though 
from the top of the stairs realises where his tray there is he doesn't 
realise that it's also still there if he's on a different floor away from 
the reminder that there are stairs between the floors!

It's not unusual... I've seen similar, it's not a problem necessarily at
all, just we make assumptions of little creatures that are walking after 
five months that we wouldn't make of a child after 5 years!

It's like he can remember the route if he's near enough but 
if there are more than 2 rooms between him and it then he just doesn't 
realise he can get to that litter tray in that area from where his is 
in the present. You could try showing him the route. 

It's a really good sign that he's looking around for a box though , 
he's trying as well as he possibly can to be a good kitty and go in 
litter. 

If you *keep* him in the small room and gradually extend his territory
then where his litter actually is gets more accurately printed on his 
mind, he doesn't expect to see a tray in every room he's in cause 
he's used to having to trek across the house to find it. 

Even if you have to go to a tray in every room nearly you can just 
gradually migrate them across the rooms 'til all the trays become one 
tray in the spot he learns he's meant to go in. 

Remember, above all, this is an *incredibly* young kitten, 
it's mother should have taught it all of this so you'll
have to put in treble effort for the first month or two. 

This is one of the MAIN reasons, other than actually weaning the 
kittens healthily and naturally for leaving them with their mothers 
for as long as possible, although you can force a kitten onto other 
foods and keep it from it's mother and it will live it will just 
not have had time to have been taught basic things.  Shadow will 
likely not be a good parent either, though presumably that's not 
going to be an issue, he might well be an incompetant hunter too, 
but that's no bad thing. 

However for all the damange early weaning and fostering can do, now 
that it's done if you follow the right steps (IE: put _TONS_ of effort 
into doing it all right for him over the first few crucial months) the 
result will be a kitty who is even more people-centric and loving 
since he'll think you're his real mum, not just adopted parent figure 
like most cats do - he has the potential to be an absolutely fantastic 
companion cat. 

Go on, invest that love and effort (and cat litter :-) and 
you'll get it back zillion-fold... 

Jo. 

I was going to suggest the same as -.1.  Put at least one litter box
on each floor, and make sure he knows where they are.  When I get 
new cats/kittens in the house, I let them discover the house from 
the litter box.  They go from the carrier to the litter box, and from 
there, they can explore.  

If Shadow is so young, it might also be difficult for him to manage 
the stairs, especially if he has to go *now*! Think of him like a 
2-year-old human that you're trying to potty-train - 'Mommy, I have 
to go...I can't wait!!!...I have to go NOW!!!'  I think parents of 
young children know where every bathroom is within their travelling 
circle ;^)

You may also want to confine him while you are out of the house and 
not able to supervise his 'activities'.

kathy

    I think your vet is being a little bit alarmist in terms of thinking
    Shadow will always have this problem.  Think of him as a diaperless
    baby :-) at the moment.
    

    
    Haven't dealt with a very young kitten in years, but the advice you are
    getting here is the advice I used when Soot adopted us a couple days
    after Carrie was born (and two weeks after losing my beloved
    Schroedinger)  We live in an area where people will dump pets on
    occaision, and she was obviously very young.  It took a few weeks and
    lots of patience and boxes to get her going in the right places.  
    
    she did well after those first few weeks and was an exemplary if wild
    cat for the time we had her, (about 3 years)
    
    meg