Conference cookie::notes$archive:cd_v1

    I believe CD policy in most stores here follows LP return policy.
    Unopened CD's or LP's can be exchanged for other titles (gifts are
    an obvious reason for doing this).  Opened CD's or LP's can only
    be exchanged if defective, and only for another copy of the same
    album.  This seems like a generally reasonable policy to me.
    All the new CD's sold over here are sealed somehow.

    Why not set up a CD swap file like we have in the US?  I bet the
    UK has enough CD users to set up a notes file.  I just sold a CD
    to a noter in Maine, and I live in Mass.
    
    Jeff

    There is/was a CDSWAP notesfile on RDGENG:: that died through lack
    of use. If anyone in the UK wishes to revive it, let me know.
    
    As to changing - I have found "Our Price" and Tower records eminently
    reasonable.
    
    If the CD was still wrapped, that would knock the "Copyright" argument
    on the head, how can you tape it if it's still wrapped? If THEY
    unwrap it, or wrap it in such a way as to make it impossible to
    know whether you've recorded it, that is THEIR problem.
    
    Under these circumstances, I find a letter to the M.D., with copy
    to the Manager of the store concerned works fine, I've just been
    through an EXTREMELY similar hassle with another local store - Allders
    - that was fixed Real Quick when reasoning was applied to the right
    place.            
    
    Best of luck
    
    Andy
    
    PS I'd buy it, but I already have it, sorry.

    I have sent a letter to the MD of ASDA lasy week.
    
    I'll let you know what happens.
    
    Richard
    
    ps WPS-PLUS + LN03 is an ideal 'Complaining letter to MD' tool!
    

    It worked, whats more, in style.
    
    I had a call from the offending store saying that they had been
    'asked' by their Managing Director to resolve the problem. They
    offered to bring a refund ROUND TO MY HOUSE!
    
    I said I'd come and change it which I did.
    
    Long live WPS-PLUS and the LN03!
    
    Richard Briggs
    UK SWAS.
    

Now, for the first time, I see a great advantage to the tendency in the U.S. to
sell CDs wrapped.  Every CD I've ever bought in Europe was not wrapped, and
there was no way for the store to tell whether I had taped it or not!

/john

    Final word..
    
    I had a personally signed letter from the MD apologising profusely
    and trusts that everything has been sorted out to my satisfaction.
    
    The only trouble now is that It's all got a little bit over the
    top. I'll be too embarrased to complain about anything at the store
    now! Perhaps this is a tactic purposely used!
    
    Richard

    	I think I'll add my two cents worth as well.
    
    	I work part time for one of New Englands larger chains, (Lechmere)
    in the customer service department. I have seen my share of really
    stupied reasons for returning CDs. I had a customer who brought
    in a CD version of an old album that he said that the sound was
    inferior to the original record. I told him that we were not
    responsible for the way the CD was recorded and that they were only
    a good as the source tape. This customer felt that the store should
    take it back and give him a refund since the store policy wto make
    him happy (in so many words). I was willing to tell him to take
    a hike but he perserverd. After finally getting the record dept.
    manager, he finally won. I do not agree with this. The store did
    not want to loose the customer so they comply with his wants. I
    think the place to start is with the record companys, since they
    seem to be churning out everything and anything just to get those
    few extra bucks.
    	What my point is, is that we should exchange a defective CD
    and have a store make good on it. After all, they turn around and
    give it to the record company and get credit on it. However if you
    get one of these lousy sounding CDs that have not been given much
    concideration in the CD conversion then WRITE TO THE RECORD CO.

    Re: .-1
    
    Who has the time to hassle with a Record Co.?
    
    The problem w/the way music is sold is that you don't know what
    you are getting til you bought it, and then you are supposed to
    be stuck with it.  It would be nice if you could sample the music
    in the store before you bought it (like you see in the old movies
    that have music stores w/listening rooms).

Re .8

Being a person who did exactly what you described (although not at Lechemere),
I disagree with you.  From my point of view, when I buy a compact disc, I am
buying something that should not sound any worse that the original vinyl album
on MY EQUIPMENT.  Any CD that does sound worse than the album is something I
consider defective.  I would accept an even exchange, if the store was able to
prove to me that another copy was better by playing it for me.  In my case,
the store I returned Led Zepplin 4 to verified that all copies of the CD were
very noisy.  The bottom line is that I don't feel that consistently bad 
quality should be an issue between a store's vendor and the customer.

						     
							- JP

    re  .8
    
    I would have screamed bloody-murder at you -- Lechmere's posted
    policy is that they accept returns on merchandise purely on the
    basis of customer dissatisfaction -- the *reason* for that
    dissatisfaction is irrelevant.  You were attempting to set
    a different policy, and the customer was correct in going over
    your head.  The reasonableness of the policy is not an issue.

The customer may have been right, but he was being unreasonable.
It is commonly accepted in most software buying situations (software
being CDs, records, video recordings, computer programs and even books) 
that if the customer has opened the packaging, he has received the utility
of the product.  Copyright statutes being what they are, most stores are 
loath to refund in such circumstances.
Furthermore, complaining to the store about the quality of a CD is likely
to be a waste of time.  The message will  get so diluted on the way back 
through the chain, that the effort will produce no long term gain.
Get your money back from the store if you must, but by all means
complain to the record company!  Only they, through their chain, can solve
such problems.

Finally, remember that a CD is a computer program, not a recording.
If you can hear it at all, every other disc will sound the same.
Unlike analog pressings, discs can't sound muddy, warped, fluttery,
or thin unless those flaws are in the transcription.  Forcing the vendor
to open every copy in the place will be a waste of time for all involved.

- tom]

    
    I've noticed this at a lot of retail places - not just CD's/records,
    but society in general.   It wasn't too long ago that stores/outlets
    realized that "Joe Customer" pays the salaries and bills, and acted
    accordingly.   In the past 7 or 8 years, however, store clerks and
    managers seem to be getting ruder and ruder.
    
    Whatever happened to "The Customer is *always* right."  ????
    
    Please, don't think I'm attacking you (.8) personally.  I'm sure
    that you're a courteous clerk and you were doing your job as you
    think is right [It's a fine line between returning CD's because
    of inherent noise, and returning them just because you don't like
    them].    It's just that reading the last few replies has touched
    a nerve.   Although, now that I think of it, I've never had any
    problem at Lechmere's - but some of the other stores in the malls
    of MA and Southern NH seem to be populated by some rude people!
    

    -Monty-

The customer is NOT always right, he just happens to be the one who has the
money.  Customer CAN be unreasonable, and use the leverage of bad publicity
and taking up the manager's time to extort unreasonable results from stores.

The problem is that our retail society is always pushing for lower costs,
and is unwilling to pay for services.  Stores don't have listening booths
because they take up space and space costs, and the payback would be
miniscule if most of the time in the booths was spent by idle listeners.
If the customer brought it back after listening in the store, would
the clerk say "You listened to it here, why'd you buy it?"

How many times have people been advised to check out what they want at full
service, typically small specialty shops, getting personalized attention
to help them research their topics, and then to go to Fretter or Highland
or Manufacturers' Marketplace to buy cheap?  Is that fair?

We must all be prepared to pay our freight.

- tom]

    
    	re .8	I disagree.  My leverage is with the retail store, they
    make profit on me.  Part of their operating costs are finding out
    what the buying public wants and finding quality sources for it.  
    Just passing trash on from manufacturers and trying to pass the
    blame back isn't acceptable.  If they're making money on marketing
    hype about "Satisfaction guaranteed, or your money back" (or words
    to that effect), then they should be willing to back it when the
    customer is not satisfied, "Policies", re upopened packages and
    other diversions notwithstanding.

    	Reg
    

    I believe Lechmere has a posted policy about software (video tapes,
    cds, etc.) saying that once the package is opened, it can only be
    exchanged for another copy of the same title.  This is presumably
    for reasons of copyright protection, but it also applies in this
    case.
    
    As was pointed out earlier, there's a fine line between finding the
    product defective and simply not liking it.  I don't think it's
    completely unreasonable to get a refund from the store, but it doesn't
    get the message to the real culprit (the record company), and it drives
    up the cost of doing business, and hence prices for everyone. 

    The practice in the UK of selling unwrapped CDs is just the same as
    it's always been for records and tapes (always = 25+ years). The empty
    box/sleeve is on display; choose what you want, take it to the sales
    desk, and they put the appropriate disc/record/tape in it. It's easy
    enough to exchange a faulty item for an identical one, harder to
    exchange for something equivalent but different, and just about
    impossible to get a cash refund. You just can't prove that you haven't
    taped it. I had to show both copies of a record once when I wanted
    to exchange a duplicate.
    
    Selling things sealed, in the UK and elsewhere, would solve some
    of these problems, but keeping things behind the desk probably helps
    reduce theft - unless you're in to collecting empty boxes.

.12�The customer may have been right, but he was being unreasonable.

	What a ridiculous statement.

re .-1

Yes, one can be both right and unreasonable.  In fact, the unreasonability is 
directly proportional to the other person's unwillingness to see things our 
way.  

I typically view such situations as a challenge, however, the last couple of 
times I dealt with returns and exchanges where there was a problem, I tried a 
new approach.  I got nicer.  Talk about blowing away the clerk.  These folks 
deal all day long with people that can't understand why store rules should 
apply to them.  Or, worse, they come to the store prepared for confrontation, 
and often forget that the clerk did not hear the 500 rehearsals they did in 
the car, so they don't really explain themselves, and then become even less 
coherent because the clerk doesn't understand them.

Miss Manners would say "Gentle Reader, being right never gives one the right 
to be rude."

						     
							- JP

    This has probably been said before in this notesfile, but it's
    buried now.  It's worth saying again.
    	
    There still ARE small stores with listening booths.  Electric
    Gramophone,on Rt 20 in Sudbury, is such.  They sell only CD's. The
    store policy is no refunds, exchanges for same title only; BUT you are
    very welcome to test-listen ANY CD in the listening room.  There's no
    charge for the listening service, and the CD prices are relatively
    competitive (i.e. $15.99 per/avg, with occasional specials in the
    "off-price" bin).                    
    
    They sell only classical CD's (unfortunately), and Luxman and Allison
    equipment. 
    
    If you go there and test listen a CD, don't go buy it at Lechmere. If
    you buy it at all, please buy it at Electric Gramophone.  It's only
    fair, and it'll preserve your chance to test-listen other CDs before
    purchase too. 

    Just a word about Electric Gramophone's listening policy....it doesn't
    apply to the mark downs, only CDs at full price.  
    
    Ken P.

    Boston Compact Disc (BCD) will also play selections from any disc
    you want to audition, but they don't have any separate listening
    room, so they probably won't play an entire disc for you (although
    I've never asked.)
    
    -pd

    I live in Miflord MA and a new CD store opened up a few months back.
    I can't remember the name but it's right next to Light & Leisure
    you know THE PURPLE BUILDING. Anyway, I went in a couple of weeks
    back and they seemed to have a few headphones connected into the
    walls for listening. I realy didn't have the time to find out but
    if it is true; what a graet idea. It doesn't take up too much space
    and a few people can listen to their own music: providing that the
    headphones are connected to different players. I like the idea.
    I will probably go there the next time I plan to buy a classical
    CD because I'm very unfamiliar with it and would like to hear something
    before I buy it. There prices were the usuall $15.99. Too bad there
    located poorly (but not for ME!)
    
    
    mano