Conference marvin::uk_music

The Mellotron was/is a pain in the arse. Loading the different tapes, requires
a large wing-span, and complete abstinance.

Stuart Albatross-Panes

    The mellotron had nothing on the Bontempi. Ooohh just thinking about
    it conjures up images of Butlins cabaret acts and wonderfully awful
    pub entertainers. That tinny organ sound, those authentic drum beats.
    I will not be complete until I've learned to play such classics
    written for the Bontempi such as "Begin the Begin" and "Country Roads".
    Incidentally, as some have guessed wrongly from the p-name, I don't
    actually own God's gift to music. But one day I will...
    
    :^)  :^)

    What about the Hammond organ?
    
    This was used to great effect in the old "progressive rock" days by
    such acts as The Nice, ELP and Atomic Rooster.
    
    Michael Jackson used it on BAD.
    
    And nowadays it's become popular again, being used by the likes of
    James and the James Taylor Quartet (not THAT James Taylor).
    
    It's a lot less cissy than the melotron and not half as silly as the
    Bontempi organ.
                             
    			Barry
    

    You're gonna cry... cry cry cry now...
    
    ? and the Hystericals

Remember when Mike Pinder of the Moody Blues was such the master of the
Mellotron that they called it the Pindertron?  The Moodies have never been the
same since he left.

Paul

P. S.  Have you heard their latest drek?

       There was a bit about the Hammond Organ on the Radio a couple of
       weeks back. It has received a bit of a revival lately, Chris Rea
       used one in Auberge(sp). 

       The trouble is there is a part (I can't remember which) that is
       essential to its distinctive sound, which gradually wears out and
       is no longer obtainable. 

       I have to say, however, that generally the sounds of these old
       keyboards brings back too many memories of boring Summer afternoons
       round the bandstand in Bognor park!

       Ian (who once built his own Stylophone).

     <<< Note 902.6 by COMICS::WEGG "Some hard boiled eggs & some nuts." >>>
                  -< Re .3 �  What about the Hammond organ? >-

>       The trouble is there is a part (I can't remember which) that is
>       essential to its distinctive sound, which gradually wears out and
>       is no longer obtainable. 


        Yer actual Hammond would be put through yer actula Leslie cabinet.
        This was a big old lump of wood with a couple of speakers that would
        rotate at varying speeds and this helped the Hammond to have a 
        distintive sound. I believe that Yamaha brought in a more uptodate
        version (  transistors and all that new guff ), but a similar effect
        can now be gained thru' little boxes.

        Technology marches relentlessly on.


        Stuart 
        ( a little too embarrassed to talk about his own organ's capabilities)

    Re .1
    
    Stuart - do I take it that you own/have owned one of these magic
    beasts?  Aside from making you look like a seabird, I'd be interested
    to know what you thought of it musically.  What sounds did you use?
    
    There was a fascinating article on the 'Tron in one of the keyboard
    magazines a couple of months back.  I was surprised at how few of the
    things were actually made.  It would be interesting to know how many
    are left.  Having so many mechanical parts, I guess a lot of them have
    disintegrated by now!
    
    Incidentally, I can't play any keyboard - I'm just an enthusiastic
    listener...
    
    Ian
    

   Re .5
    
    Yes - I well remember the days of the 'Pindertron'.  Interesting how it
    always sounded smoother when used by the MB's than when used by, for 
    example, King Crimson.  Maybe it is the way it was recorded.
    
    Can you explain what a 'drek' is?!
    
    Ian
    

    Re .6
    
    I heard that item too.  I think the part that wears out is a titanium
    strip.
    
    I have to confess that the Hammond is my second-favourite keyboard. 
    Memories of Keith Emerson stabbing his 'spare' Hammond... Apparently
    when he did it during the recording of the Five Bridges Suite he
    actually got an electric shock!  Can you imagine anybody treating
    todays high-tech Midi-based keyboards like that?  I'd be interested to
    know why the Hammond managed to sound so much gutsier than other
    electric organs of the period.
    
    I still prefer the Mellotron though...
    
    Ian
    

	I have never owned a Mellotron but used to work with them 
  occasionally. At the time there was a limited choice of tapes, although
  rumours abounded that people like McCartney would make his own.
        Great care had to be taken when changing tapes, a little bit
  of stretching and the "magic" was lost. The other thing that a lot of
  people forgot was that you could only sustain a note for 7 seconds
  ( if my memory serves me correctly ) and there would be a slight pause
  whilst the tape was "rewound".

  Stuart

    A Hammond was a wonderful machine, unless you had to carry one up
    several flights of narrow stairs with lots of right-angle corners...
    
    

    Could someone explain in a bit more detail how a Mellotron worked?
    I have a mental picture of a keyboard hooked up to tape machine that
    plays a pre-recorded sound sample at different speeds depending on the
    key that is pressed. I am sure this is wrong as you then have a
    monophonic instrument.
    
    Thanks,
    Barry.

    Re .13
    
    Each key on the Mellotron actuated a separate strip of tape.  It was a
    strip, rather than a loop, so that you could could reproduce the
    'attack' transient of each note - for example, if you used it to
    reproduce the sound of a piano (a bit pointless really!), you would
    hear the sound of the hammer striking the strings followed by the note
    decaying away.
    
    There were three unfortunate consequences of this approach:
    
    - The note only lasted as long as the strip of tape allowed.  I believe
      this was eight seconds, not seven as indicated in an earlier reply
    
    - Once the note had run out, there was a delay while the tape strip was
      rewound from the box it dropped into
    
    - Being a mechanical device, it took a finite time for the tape to
      start moving after the key was depressed.  This (I am told - I've
      never had my hands on a Mellotron) led to a 'dead' feel to the keys. 
      I read an interview with Vangelis once where he stated that he
      disliked the instrument for this reason.  It tended to be used to
      provide good, meaty backing sounds, rather than as a lead instrument
      - probably because of the lack of responsiveness.     	
    
    In practice, there were several variations on the basic theme.  The
    'standard' Mellotron looked much like a conventional organ, albeit with
    a short keyboard.  There were versions with two keyboards side by side,
    and versions with three different segments (each containing a different
    sound) on each strip of tape.  I believe that the most sophisticated
    versions were capable of reproducing up to 1,500 different
    sounds/notes.  Not bad for primitive technology!
    
    You could change the whole bank of tapes if you wished, thus giving
    access to (in theory) an infinite range of sounds.  However, if you
    read one of the earlier replies, you'll see that you needed arms as
    long as an albatross's wings to do this!
    
    One more bit of information - Rick Wakeman and a mate of his called
    Biro developed a similar machine that used tape loops.  It was called
    the Birotron (original, huh?), but I've only ever seen it credited once
    - on Rick Wakeman's 'Criminal Record'.  The lack of attack and decay
    transients makes it sound totally bland and wimpy in comparison to the
    Mellotron.  
    
    Some of the later versions of the Mellotron were sold as Novotrons (or
    was it Novatrons?).  I've seen these credited on a couple of Steve
    Hackett's albums.
    
    I could go on like this for hours (I said I was an enthusiast!), but I
    better stop for now.
    
    Ian
    	
    

My brother had a Mellotron until a couple of years ago. (He also had a
Hammond M1 and Leslie cabinet, as it happens).
Mellotrons have a "tape frame" inside them with a length of tape (and,
presumably a read head) for each note. They are fully polyphonic if I remember
rightly.

There is a switch on the keyboard to allow you to switch between tracks on
the tapes, giving you a choice (albeit limited) of different "instruments".
The standard tape frame was strings and flutes (very "intro to Strawberry
Fields")... also we definitely had a tape frame with human choir voices,
but I can't remember if this was on the "default" tape frame.
As noted previously, it was not easy to change tape frames.

My main comment on the Mellotron is that it was a b*gger of a job to keep it
in concert pitch. (If you listen to Moody Blues stuff closely,
you'll notice that they didn't quite manage to do this in many cases.)
I seem to remember there is a fine tune control for the tape speed (pitch)
on the keyboard somewhere...

    Thanks for the info. These things sound fascinating! 
    I'm sure they will be a collectors item in years to come.

    If anyone is interested, since starting this Note I have found another
    on the same subject.  It is #184 on Conference COMET::MUSIC. 
    
    Ian
    

   Before you all rush to your keypads..

   Ian meant Note 184.* on COMET::RECORDS.

   Dave    

    
    >One more bit of information - Rick Wakeman and a mate of his called
    >Biro developed a similar machine that used tape loops.  It was called
    >the Birotron (original, huh?), but I've only ever seen it credited once
    >- on Rick Wakeman's 'Criminal Record'.  The lack of attack and decay
    >transients makes it sound totally bland and wimpy in comparison to the
    >Mellotron.  
    
    Another place that it is credited is when Rick uses it on the Yes
    album 'Tormato'.  I'd always wondered what it was.
    
    nick

re .9

"Drek" is not in my dictionary, unfortunately, but if you'd heard the new Moody
Blues album you'd know what I meant.  I guess "sludge" or "pap" or "waste"
would be just as descriptive.

Paul

    Ref the comment in .15 - I can vouch for the difficulty in keeping the
    Mellotron in pitch.  I saw King Crimson live several times, and I well
    remember Robert Fripp and one of the other band members (was the name
    David Cross?) adjusting their respective Mellotrons to get them in the
    same pitch.  This exercise was well worth sitting through, as it
    preceded the playing of 'Devil's Triangle' (from 'In The Wake Of
    Poseidon').  Apparently Fripp and co. originally wanted to play 'Mars'
    from the 'Planets Suite', but the publishers (who I think were Boosey
    and Hawkes) refused them permission on the grounds that it wasn't
    scored for two Mellotrons, bass and drums!  So instead they wrote this
    piece based around a similarly incessant drumbeat, massive chords and
    huge crescendos.  Try listening to it in a darkened room at full
    volume...
    
    Incidentally, I seem to remember that early Moog synthesisers also
    suffered from pitch problems.  I heard an anecdotal story that when
    Keith Emerson first used one on stage (big as a bus and monophonic to
    boot!), he had Mike Vickers underneath during the entire performance
    constantly retuning it because it was so susceptible to humidity
    ...etc.
    
    Ian
                

    � Try listening to it in a darkened room at full volume...
    
    Yeah, and I'll bring the Magic Mushrooms! :^)
    
    Mark

    Just for fun, I tried listing all the artists/tracks I could think of
    that used the Mellotron.  Here goes (in no particular order):
    
    Individual singles/tracks:
    
    Traffic - Hole In My Shoe
    Jethro Tull - Witches Promise
    Kinks - Days
    OMD - Maid of Orleans (The Waltz Joan of Arc)
        - Navigation [B-side of above]
    Simon Dupree and the Big Sound - Kites
    Elton John - Daniel
               - Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds
    Rolling Stones - We Love You
                   - 2000 Light Years From Home
    Beatles - Strawberry Fields
            - ?Flying [From Magical Mystery Tour]
    Flowerpot Men - Let's Go To San Francisco
    Cream - Doing That Scrapyard Thing
    Julie Driscoll/Brian Auger Trinity - This Wheel's On Fire
    Bee Gees - Every Christian Lion Hearted Man
             - World
    
    Major Users
    -----------
    
    King Crimson
    Genesis
    Moody Blues
    Yes/Rick Wakeman
    Strawbs
    Tangerine Dream
    Steve Hackett (Novotron)
    
    Occasional Users
    ----------------
    
    Led Zeppelin
    Uriah Heep
    10cc
    Pink Floyd (Sysyphus on 'Ummagumma')
    Elton John
    Greenslade
    
    Obscure Users
    -------------
    
    Spring
    Jonesy
    PFM
    
    Now didn't you want to know that!
    
    Interesting that they are *all* British (or in the case of PFM,
    British-based) groups.  I believe there were major problems getting the
    Mellotron approved for use in the US - their equivalent of the
    Musician's Union reckoned that it would put musicians out of work by
    replacing string sections ..etc.  Anyone know anything about this?
    
    Ian
    
    
    
                    

    Re .23
    
    Can anyone add to the list?!
    
    Ian

    Re .23
    
    Oops - missed one.  Major User - Barclay James Harvest.
    
    Ian

These were all my favorite bands of the seventies and a good part of the
eighties!

I didn't think anyone else remembered Premiata Forneria Marconi.

Did Eloy use the Mellotron?

Paul

    RE .26
    
    This information is based on memory - I never actually owned any PFM
    records.  Maybe someone else can confirm.
    
    Incidentally (I'm a mine of useless information), I believe PFM were
    named after an Italian patisserie (cake shop) or something similar.  I
    also seem to remember they had some connection with Pete Sinfield (the
    original lyricist for King Crimson).  Is their music any good - i.e.
    would it be worth trying to track down old albums to listen to?
    
    I'll be even more impressed if anyone out there has heard of Spring or
    Jonesy.  I saw them both as support bands when I was at Exeter
    University in the seventies and subsequently bought an album by each group.
    I sold the Jonesy record, but still own the Spring opus.  I rate this
    very highly - several of my friends bought copies after hearing it. 
    When I was living in a bed-sit in Bournemouth (exciting, huh?!) a
    couple of years later, one of the girls who I shared the house with
    nearly beat my door down when she heard me playing it.  Said she would
    do anything (well, *almost* anything!) to own a copy...
    
    Ian
       

    Re .23
    
    Two more for the list:
    
    Manfred Mann - Ha Ha Said The Clown
                 - Semi Detached Suburban Mr James
    
    Ian
    

I just looked and I have *five* PFM albums:

	1973	Photos of Ghosts		Manticore
	1974	The World Became the World	    "
	1974	Cook (live)			    "
	1976	Chocolate Kings			Asylum
	1977	Jet Lag				   "

I remember liking The World Became the World quite a bit, although I haven't
listened to it in years.  The liner notes indicate that Pete Sinfield wrote the
English lyrics.  Photos of Ghosts credits Pete with producing two tracks and
remixing the others.  As I recall, Pete's wonderful album Still is also on the
Manticore label.

Keyboards (can we presume including our beloved Mellotron??) are played by
Flavio Premoli.  Jet Lag lists him as playing a "Pari" organ, electric piano,
and micro Moog.

I guess it's time to dust off the turntable and give these a spin...

Paul

    Pink Floyd's Rick Wright used one on their first two albums, "Piper at
    the Gates of Dawn" and "Saucerful of Secrets," in addition to
    "Ummagumma."  
    

    
    The keyboard player I used to perform with back in the late 70s had a
    Mellotron 400 in his arsenal, using choir, flutes and cello tapes. It
    was a pretty temperamental beast, from what I remember. It was also
    amusing to have to hear a keyboard instrument being tuned (and often).
    I also remember the tape drives or what ever they were called were
    pretty fussy about temperature. If they weren't warmed up, they'd
    function intermittently. Winter gigs were particularly amusing. After
    being in the truck all day, the instrument had to be the first thing
    carted in, so it could begin to warm through. On occasion, I
    remember a job of one of the road crew was to remove the back, hook up
    a portable hair blower, and begin hosing the inside with warm air for
    about 15 minutes.
    
    But when it was working right, there was nothing like that choir sound.
    
    Some favorite 'mellotroney' things:
    
    -Many by Gentle Giant, including 'Pantagruel's Nativity' and other
    things from "Acquiring the Taste".
    
    -Greenslade's "Feathered Friends", "An English Western", "Drowning Man"
    and "Chalkhill".
    
    -All of "Foxtrot" and "Selling England" by Genesis (especially the
    backdrop to the synth solo in "Cinema Show", and the chords after
    the guitar solo in "Firth of Fifth").
    
    ...I believe the Small Faces also used one on 'Ogden's Nut Gone Flake',
    Thys Van Leer used one on the first few Focus albums, and Isao Tomita
    used it a lot on "Snowflakes are Dancing".
    
    Peter
     

    I missed another classic track from the list in .23:
    
    Space Oddity by David Bowie.  Mellotron played by Rick Wakeman.  There
    was a similar sound on Ashes To Ashes, but I suspect it may have been
    sampled.
    
    Ian
    

    re .23
    
    I actually listened to a *record* last night - and have decided to
    upgrade to CD - to get to the point - the mellotron is used on one cut
    in the album Average White Band (can't remember the name of the song).
    
    Suegene

       The Mellotron has been featured on Danny Baker's show� for the last
       few days, and this morning Rick Wakeman phoned in to talk about it.

       He said he owned six of them all together - he would have four on
       stage at one time, and if he still had two working at the end of a
       concert they'd have a party!  The main problems were the tapes
       snapping, a note could only be played for a maximum of 8 seconds,
       and the more keys you pressed simultaneously, the slower it went!

       Asked when he knew the days of the Mellotron were over, he replied
       "about half an hour after I played my first one!"

       He did say, though, that all other electronic keyboard instruments
       were pretty unreliable at that time, and the Mellotron was a great
       advance.

       They also played a bit of the first Mellotron "hit": Manfred Mann's
       "Ha Ha Said The Clown", and Bowie's "Space Oddity".

       Ian.

       � Danny Baker's Morning Edition on Radio 5. The best morning radio
       programme by a factor of a million.

    
    That famous Doors album, "No-one here gets out awake"...
    
    

    	Hello there ....if anyone out there still reads this note,you may
    be interested in a CD `compilation` featuring - apparently - well known
    `Tron users.It`s called - rather wittily -`The Rhyme Of The Ancient Sampler`
    and features new compositions by these folks to showcase the Mellotron
    and its range of sounds.
    	Artists I can remember include Mike Pinder,Patrick Moraz,Blue
    Weaver,Bill Nelson and BJH amongst many others.It`s on Voiceprint
    records,don`t know how widely available it is but I bought it mail
    order from CD Services in Dundee (see small ads in Vox magazine).
        The music is most definitely `progressive` and would I suspect
    appeal to most of the noters who have been in this topic.
    	It also features a booklet for an inner jacket which has a short 
    history of the m/c,its development and its demise.A `bonus` track is
    the original demonstration disc which was available at the time which
    is highly amusing.
    	BTW the disc does feature some spiffing guitar work from unnamed 
    players as well as all the keyboard stuff.
                                              

    Re .36:
    
    Do you have the catalogue number of this record?  I'd love to get hold
    of a copy.
    
    Ian
    

re .37

Hello Ian, good to see your fascination with the mellotron is unchanged. 
I guess that 1979 has yet to arrive for you. :^)

Balders

    Re .36
    
    In answer to my own question, catalogue number is VP141CD
    
    BTW, Correct spelling is *RIME* of the Ancient Sampler.
    
    Ian