Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

True:  Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

re Note 1337.0 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE:

> 499.312
> 
> >    I'm simply telling you there are matters of faith that are not opened
> >    to interpretation.
> 
> Is this a true or not?
  
        Obviously false -- a statement cannot be understood without
        the act of "interpretation."

        On the other hand, what I think was meant was "there are
        matters of faith that [once understood] are not open to
        logical scrutiny."

        My answer to that is, "of course, by definition, matters of
        faith are those that are accepted for reasons other than
        logic and evidence."

        Once you accept something "on faith", you don't question it.

        However, how do you decide in what to have faith?  The best
        tools available are logic and evidence, but clearly if logic
        and evidence completely support a tenet, what you have isn't
        faith, but a conclusion.

        Bob

    I say YES, but under certain circumstances (3 basic skills):
    
    1. Observation - What does the passage say?
    2. Interpretation - What does the passage mean? 
    3. Application - What does it mean to me personally?  What truths can I 
       put into practice?  What changes should I make in my life?

    Each skill also has special skills to keep in mind.

>    2. Interpretation - What does the passage mean? 
>    3. Application - What does it mean to me personally?  What truths can I 
>       put into practice?  What changes should I make in my life?

    I don't think you can do that without interpretting it.

    Tom

Interpretation
--------------
Here we take our observations a step further and determine what passages mean.
Like most people, you have been taught a system of belief before you ever
studied God's Word.  You may even have formed opinions of what the Bible teaches
before you carefully examined the Scriptures.  As you learn to handle God's Word
accurately, you will be able to discern if what you believe is in agreement with
Scripture.  If this is your desire and you come to the Word of God with a
teachable spirit, God will lead you and guide you into all truth.  As you seek
to interpret the Bible accurately, the following guidelines will be helpful:

1. Remember that context rules.  In other words, that which goes with the text.
   To understand context, you must be familiar with the Word of God.  If you lay
   the solid foundation of observation, you will be prepared to consider each
   verse in the light of:

   - the surrounding verses
   - the book in which it is found
   - the entire Word of God

   While you study, ask yourself if your interpretation is consistent with the
   theme, purpose, and structure of the book in which it is found.  Is it
   consistent with other Scripture about the same subject, or is there a glaring
   difference?  Am I considering the historic and cultural context of what is
   being said?  Never take a passage out of context to make it say what you want
   it to say.  Discover what the author is saying, don't add to his meaning.

2. Always seek the full counsel of the Word of God.  When you know God's Word,
   you will not accept a teaching simply because someone has used 1 or 2
   isolated verses to support it.  These verses may have been taken out of
   context or other important passages might have been overlooked.  As you
   become familiar with the whole counsel of God's Word, you will be able to
   discern whether a teaching is biblical or not.  Saturate yourself in the Word
   of God, it is your safeguard against wrong doctrine.

3. Remember that Scripture will never contradict Scripture.  The best
   interpretation of Scripture is Scripture.  Remember, all Scripture is
   inspired by God, it is God-breathed.  Therefore, Scripture will never
   contradict itself.  The Bible contains all the truth you will ever need for
   any situation in life.  Sometimes you may find it difficult to reconcile 2
   seemingly contradictory truths taught in Scripture.  An example of this would
   be the sovereignty of God, and the responsibility of man.  When 2 or more
   truths that are clearly taught in the Word seem to be in conflict, remember
   that we as humans have finite minds.  Don't take a teaching to an extreme
   that God doesn't.  Simply humble your heart in faith and believe what God
   says, even if you can't fully understand or reconcile it at the moment.

4. Don't base your convictions on an obscure passage of Scripture.  Because
   these passages are difficult to understand even when proper principles of
   interpretation are used, they should not be used as a basis for establishing
   doctrine.

5. Interpret Scripture literally.  The Bible is not a book of mysticism.  God
   spoke to us that we might know truth.  Therefore, take the Word of God at
   face value - in its natural, normal sense.  Look first for the clear
   teaching of Scripture, not a hidden meaning.  Understand and recognize
   figures of speech and interpret them accordingly.

   a.) Figures of speech -
       1. Identify the fact that the author is using figurative language.
       2. Identify the type of figurative language:
          Simile - expressed comparison of 2 different things or ideas -
                   "His eyes were like a flame of fire" Revelation 1:14b
          Metaphor - implied comparison between 2 things which are different -
                   "I am the Bread of Life" John 6:48
          Hyperbole - deliberate exaggeration for effect or emphasis.  These are
                   found in all languages, but are frequent among Semitic
                   peoples.  "My soul is crushed with longing" Psalm 119:20
          Metonymy - when the name of one object or concept is used for that of
                   another to which it is related.  This is a figure of
                   association.  "All the country of Judea was going out to
                   Him."  The metonymy is Country, which refers to the people
                   rather than the region itself.  Note also the hyperbole,
                   *All* the country.
          Synecdoche - another figure of association where the whole can refer
                   to part or the part to the whole.  This is often found in
                   the use of the term "the law" which can refer to the
                   Pentateuch (first 5 books of OT), the 10 Commandments,
                   or the whole OT.  A synecdoche can also be a singular for
                   a plural or a plural for a singular.  An example is in
                   Jeremiah 25:29.  God says He is going to summon "a
                   sword against all the inhabitants of the earth."  The
                   singular sword represents many swords.
          Personification - an object is given characteristics or attributes
                   that belong to people - for example, when the trees clap
                   their hands and the mountains sing for joy (Isaiah 55:12).
          Irony - a statement which says the opposite of what is meant and is
                  used for emphasis or effect.  When irony is difficult to
                  discern, first examine that it is a true statement as it
                  stands and does it make sense in its context.  Then examine
                  it as figurative irony.  If this makes sense and fits with
                  the context, then accept it as irony.  Otherwise, it is the
                  truth.  Examples of irony are in 1 Kings 22:1-23 and
                  1 Corinthians 4:8.  In 1 Kings 22:1-23, a true prophet tells
                  the king what he wants to hear, but it is a lie.  It's
                  obvious he is using irony because the king tells him to stop
                  prophesying falsely and to tell the truth.  In 1 Corinthians
                  4:8, Paul obviously does not believe the Corinthians are not
                  kings, nor does Paul desire to reign with them.
         Parables - a story that may not be actually factual, remains true to
                  life and teaches a moral lesson or truth.  Jesus used this
                  method to reveal truths to believers and hide truth from
                  those who rejected Him or the truth, or hardened their
                  hearts against Him or that truth.  Determine why the parable
                  was told, look for the intended meaning, don't impose your
                  meaning beyond what is stated, identify the central or
                  focal idea, interpret in the context of the culture of that
                  era, and do not use them for establishing doctrine when they
                  are the primary or only source for that teaching.
         Allegory - a description of one thing using the image of another - a
                  story with an underlying meaning different from the surface
                  facts of the story itself.  Some call this an extended
                  metaphor, and it can be a realistic or nonrealistic story
                  created to teach 1 or more truths which may not be related.
                  When interpreting, list the features of the allegory, note any
                  interpretation given in the text, study the features
                  according to sound principles of Biblical exegesis, do not
                  try to identify all the features of an allegory.  Do not
                  contradict the clear teaching of the Word of God by
                  interpreting an unexplained detail in an allegory in a way
                  contrary to other truths.
         Types - a prophetic symbol designated by God.  The word type comes from
               the Greek word tupos.  A tupos was a mark formed by a blow or
               an impression, creating a figure or an image on the object that
               was struck.  Therefore, a type prefigures something or someone
               to come.  That which it prefigures is called an antitype.  A
               type prefigures only one antitype, although it may parallel many
               points in the antitype.  An illustration of this is the
               tabernacle, a type of man's redemption.  According to Hebrews
               10:20, the veil that separated the holy place from the holy of
               holies prefigured the flesh of Jesus Christ.  When determining
               types, although it may not be formally stated, there should be
               some evidence of divine affirmation of the corresponding type
               and antitype.  For example, Romans 5:14 we read, "Nevertheless
               death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had
               not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a
               type of Him who was to come."  The word translated type is the
               Greek word tupos.  Adam was a type or figure of Christ, who was
               to come.  In 1 Corinthians 15:45, Christ is referred to as "the
               last Adam."  If the Word does not designate something as a type,
               then the Bible expositor should simply show the parallels
               without calling it a type.
         Symbols - a picture or an object that stands for or represents another
               thing.  For example, the 7 candlesticks mentioned in Revelation
               1:20 represent the 7 churches described in Revelation 2-3.  When
               noting symbols it is important to remember that:

               a.) Item used as a symbol can symbolize different things.  For
                   example, Water is symbolized to be the Word of God
                   (Ephesians 5:26) and the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39).
               b.) Although a symbol can represent many things, when it does
                   symbolize something in a given passage, a single parallel
                   is intended.  For instance, in John 7:37-39 water
                   symbolizes the Holy Spirit, not the Word.
               c.) Interpret symbols in the light of a Biblical setting and
                   culture rather than the culture of the current interpreter.
               d.) Symbols are timeless and can symbolize something past,
                   present, or future.

       3. Follow the guidelines of interpreting what the author meant by his use
          of that particular figure of speech.

5. (continued)
   Consider what is being said in the light of its literary style.  For example,
   you will find more similes and metaphors in a poetical and prophetic
   literature than in historical or biographical books.  Interpret portions of
   Scripture according to their literary style.  Some literary styles in the
   Bible are:

   - Historical > Acts
   - Prophetic > Revelation
   - Biographical > Luke
   - Didactic (teaching) > Romans
   - Poetic > Psalms
   - Epistle (letter) > 2 Timothy
   - Proverbial > Proverbs

6. Look for the single meaning of the passage.  Always try to understand what
the author had in mind when you interpret a portion of the Bible.  Don't twist
verses to support a meaning that is not clearly taught.  Unless the author of a
particular book indicates that there is another meaning to what he says, let the
passage speak for itself.

    Tom:
    
    I have asked you in the past what you feel the meaning of the death and
    resurrection means and you have told me in the past you agreed with me. 
    
    So do you or do you not?!
    
    -Jack

    .6
    
    It's possible to agree with someone in the abstract and yet arrive at
    altogether divergent paradigms with respect to the implications.
    
    Richard
    

Hello Jack,

I vaguely remember something like that.  I believe the death and
resurrection were a way to melt our hearts so His message could
enter.  I have never accepted the idea of Christ's death as a
"ransom."

Tom

    Hi Tom:
    
    So in essence, Jesus was some sort of a martyr as opposed to a savior?
    
    I copied four verses that you may want to consider.  The idea of Jesus
    being a ransom for the souls of mankind is a theme throughout the New
    Testament and is the basis for Jesus' death and resurrection...which is 
    something he had stated numerous times to his followers.  
    
    Just something to consider during the Easter holiday.  Reflecting on
    the true meaning of Easter.  
    
    
    Matthew 20:28
    just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to
    give his life as a ransom for
    many."
    
    Mark 10:45
    For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to
    give his life as a ransom
    for many."
    
    1 Timothy 2:6
    who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its
    proper time.
    
    Hebrews 9:15
    For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those
    who are called may receive the
    promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set
    them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
    
    -Jack

    Having read my last reply, I believe the Hebrews 9 passage is by far
    the most descriptive of the four.  It explains that under the Old
    Covenant, sin was revealed through the law.  Under the new covenant,
    sin is cast away through the ransom Jesus paid on the cross.
    
    -Jack

>    So in essence, Jesus was some sort of a martyr as opposed to a savior?

    NO!

    I'm not going to repeat my previous replies.  I don't have time
    for your foolishness.

    Tom

    Z    NO!
    
    Z    I'm not going to repeat my previous replies.  I don't have time
    Z    for your foolishness.
    
    Z    Tom
    
    First of all, as a moderator (I hate to resort to this), I expect...not
    hope mind you but EXPECT your replies to be somewhat honorable.  As a
    participant here in this forum, I see myself as a guest who is invited
    here to share perspectives.  In other words Tom, I value you enough to
    hear what you have to say and respond with supporting information my
    point of view.  
    
    I now call to attention the words you wrote in a previous reply...
    
Z    I believe the death and resurrection were a way to melt our hearts so 
Z    His message could enter. 
    
    This sounds all well and good Tom.  I will avoid the use of the word
    Martyr as it seems to exasperate you.  I am, as usual, confused on the
    cogency of what you have written above.  It would seem that if this
    were the case, Jesus picked a pretty lame way of making his point. 
    Most people throughout history and a great majority of humans today
    reject the resurrection.  They claim it was a hoax.  So from an
    emotional perspective, dying for the purpose of gaining a following
    would offer very little.  
    
    John Kennedy's death in Dallas was used greatly in bringing the
    Kennedys into perpetual power; however, that generation is dying off
    and there is coming a new pharoah who knew not Joseph...so to speak.
    It seems by historical example, Jesus would have dissipated into
    obscurity were his death the meaning you believe it to be.
    
    -Jack

>    First of all, as a moderator (I hate to resort to this), I expect...not
>    hope mind you but EXPECT your replies to be somewhat honorable.  As a
>    participant here in this forum, I see myself as a guest who is invited
>    here to share perspectives.  In other words Tom, I value you enough to
>    hear what you have to say and respond with supporting information my
>    point of view.  

    I get *really* tired of being intentionally misunderstood.
    I've said time and time again that Jesus was not just a martyr.
    Having to repeat so often is foolishness.

>    were the case, Jesus picked a pretty lame way of making his point. 
>    Most people throughout history and a great majority of humans today
>    reject the resurrection.  They claim it was a hoax.  So from an
>    emotional perspective, dying for the purpose of gaining a following
>    would offer very little.  

    I disagree.

    I see more the wisdom day by day.

    Tom

   Z     I get *really* tired of being intentionally misunderstood.
   Z     I've said time and time again that Jesus was not just a martyr.
   Z     Having to repeat so often is foolishness.
    
    Tom, this is the case because it seems that at times, instead of being
    consistent, you put your finger in your mouth and raise it up to see
    which way the wind is blowing.  If Jesus didn't die as a ransom for
    mankind, then he had to have died as a martyr.  He was willing, he had
    a following, and he according to you, had the cause.  If he did die as
    a ransom, then his death and resurrection had far more meaning than to
    etch some sort of conviction in our hearts.  He wasn't a martyr who
    died for a political or social cause but died as a willing sacrifice. 
    Death as a specific act of obedience.  One or the other...pick your
    poison.
    
    Secondly, I do not intentionally misunderstand you.  I simply say that
    your replies are not consistent with sound biblical doctrine...which is
    of course why I'm having a difficult time parsing your statements at
    times.  
    
    -Jack