Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

      Did they preach the good news?
    
      Gospel = Good News
    
    						Tony

    Much of the music of the beatles in Revelatory.
    
    Much is prophetic!

    Some of their music was even pastoral:
    
    "When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to me
    	speaking words of wisdom - Let it be, let it be."
    
    					-- St. Paul of McCartney
    
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

      You know...I have 'The Beatles Collection', European vinyl recordings
      of every album they did.  They were one of my favorite songs, but I
      do wince a bit at calling them saints and calling their message the
      gospel.
    
      I do not believe we are given the authority to reckon who is saved
      (and thus a saint) and who is lost.  It is God who judges the heart
      and we would do an imperfect job of it.
    
      Well, I have my say and thats it.  Many of the Beatle's songs have
      touched me.  I think at least two of them were geniuses in their
      craft - and possibly a third.  I can't call their music gospel or
      title any of them a 'saint.'  (Neither will I insist any *was not*
      a saint.)
    
    							Tony

    Tony,
    
    It is just as legitimate to call John Lennon a saint as to call the
    unknown author of the book of John as saint.  It is equally as
    illegitamate.
    
    THe question that Richard raises for me is the nature of truth, the
    nature of scripture, the nature of revelation.
    
    If each of us let's the holy spirit guide us as we read the lyrics of
    the Beatle songs, the songs can be considered scripture.  Which for me
    means holy and Revelatory.

    .4
    
    St. Tony,
    
    Perhaps I'm using the terms "saint" and "gospel" a little too
    loosely.
    
    At the same time, I think an examination of their music and their
    message might be worthwhile.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    	The Beatles were exceptional entertainers, demonstrated mastery
    	of their art, were diverse and multi-faceted in their skills, 
    	and wrote/performed some masterpieces.
    
    	They also had some very valuable messages.
    
    	They also had some very dangerous messages.  (It was interesting
    	to see them in the wisdom of their years now back away from, and
    	even denounce, some of those dangerous messages in the Anthology
    	miniseries.)
    
    	True gospel does not mix good and bad messages.
    
    	We're better off putting and keeping them on a musical pedestal,
    	and not try to make them into something they are not.

    St. Tony:
    
    John Lennon rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ openly.  He also made
    that infamous statement in the late 60's which turned much of his
    following against him, "We are more popular than Jesus now."  He may
    have been a nice guy, an entertainer, and no doubt a musical genious;
    but the man also boasted of being on over 2000 acid trips.  This would
    be like tripping out three straight years.  John Lennon had an esoteric
    view of death; believing it was like leaving a volkwagon beatle and
    going into a limosine.  This may be accurate but the issue of sin was
    not paramount to John Lennon.
    
    George Harrison was actually the religious zealot of the Fab four. 
    George Was a follower of the Krishna Consciousness Cult and again
    openly rejected Jesus Christ and Christianity.  Much of the Krishna
    literature you receive at an airport will have a forward written by
    George Harrison.  Again, the man is a great song writer.  I
    particularly like some of his older songs like "Do You Want to Know a
    Secret", "Just to Dance with You", and other songs like Crackerbox
    Palace, Fab, and other post beatle tunes.  But the use of the word
    "gospel" which means good news would actually be misapplied to these
    men as song writers.  They started an international trend and played a
    big part in molding our culture in the sixties, but for all intents and
    purposes, they were anti Christian.
    
    -Jack 

>    	True gospel does not mix good and bad messages.

Has it been a while since reading the Bible?

It ain't all goodness and light.  That's for sure.

      Hi Richard,
    
        I appreciate your clarification.
    
        Thank you.
    
        And don't call me St.!!!    ;-)
    
    						Tony

Which gospel of St. John the Lennon would you 
refer to?  

Example, "Money can't buy everything it's true,
but what it can't buy, I can't use.  Just give me 
money, that's what I want..."

or

"Can't buy me love....."

The gospel is good news, but the real gospel 
doesn't contradict itself.

    Since there are three distinct greek origins for the word "love", one
    might assume they are referring to eros love, considering all the
    orgies they participated in and what not.
    
    -Jack

>Example, "Money can't buy everything it's true,
>but what it can't buy, I can't use.  Just give me 
>money, that's what I want..."



 minor nit...John Lennon did not write the above.  It was a hit in the late
 50's for a man who's name I cannot remember.






Jim

    The man who wrote "Money," as I recall, was Barry Gordy, the founder of
    Motown Records.
    
    I've always considered it a novelty song.
    
    The Beatles also recorded works by "Little" Richard Penneman and Chuck
    Berry.
    
    Richard
    

 I believe "Money" was orginally recorded by Garret (or Barret?) Strong..not
 sure who wrote it.



 JIm

re Note 1188.5 by POWDML::FLANAGAN:

>     It is just as legitimate to call John Lennon a saint as to call the
>     unknown author of the book of John as saint.  It is equally as
>     illegitamate.
  
        Yes, but ... in Christian contexts, gospels are messages
        about Jesus the Messiah.

        I have no doubt that the Beatles had many messages, some
        eloquently expressed, some valuable, but did they themselves
        claim to be inspired in any way by Jesus?

        The only likely "gray area" are messages in fact inspired by
        God but not claiming to be about or from Jesus.  In that
        case, the entire Hebrew Bible could be called "gospel", and
        in a sense it is.  However, it breaks the conventional and
        more precise use of the word "gospel" to call it so -- to
        what end?

        Bob

    Also, consider Charles Manson who was very much inspired by the Beatles
    White Album.  Helter Skelter was the name of his campaign and one of
    his lady henchpersons was Sexy Sadie.
    
    -Jack

.17

>    Also, consider Charles Manson who was very much inspired by the Beatles
>    White Album.  Helter Skelter was the name of his campaign and one of
>    his lady henchpersons was Sexy Sadie.

As if no one ever used the words of the Bible for evil.

Richard

    Well, true.  I can't argue against that point.  

      re: -1
    
      Good for you Jack!
    
    						Tony

    Actually, I own a Beatles White Album with the Apple label on it
    instead of Capitol.  I wonder if it is worth anything.
    
    -Jack

    Perhaps the Gospel is the good news about God's love for humanity.
    Lately I have been defining Jesus Christ as God's love incarnate in
    humanity.  When we as human's meet God's love as incarnate in another
    human being, we meet the Christ that dwells within each one of us.
    
    God's love dwells within each one of us, whether we name it Christ or
    not.  In that sense, any song that reveals God love and hope for
    humanity could be seen as Gospel.

    	"And in the end
    		the love you take
    			is equal to the love
    				you make."
    
    Paul told the Galatian churches "You reap what you sow."
    

    Richard,
    
    Is that Agape, Eros, or Caritas?
    
                                        Patricia

 "I'm a loser"





   John Lennon

    .24 Patricia
    
    :-}
    
    I know others are, but I'm not so quick to draw strict definitive lines.
    What if I had eros for my mate, but no agape?  What kind of love is
    that?
    
    Richard
    

"I'm a Loser"

	-- John Lennon

"All have fallen short of the glory of God"

	-- The artist formerly known as Saul of Tarsus

 My posting (I'm a loser) was meant tongue in cheek.  





 JIm

Interesting PBS FRONTLINE last night.  It profiled Mark David Chapman,
"The Man Who Shot John Lennon," on December 8, 1980.

Chapman claimed as his inspiration the book, "Catcher in the Rye,"
by J.D. Salinger.

Shalom,
Richard

    Re .3
    
    >>"When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to me
    
    The song was about marijuana.    (sorry)
    
    
    
    Re .8
    
    >>"We are more popular than Jesus now."
    
    They were.
    
    

    >>"We are more popular than Jesus now."
        
 ZZ       They were.
    
    Yes but at that time it wasn't the right thing to say.
    
    -Jack

.30

> The song was about marijuana.    (sorry)

I wasn't aware of that.  Certainly an atypical melody for drug music.

Do you recall the source?  Was it McCartney or one of the others?

Richard

    Other drug songs...
    
    -Magical Mystery Tour
    
    -I get by with a little help from my friends.
    
    -Dr. Robert
    
    -Jack

    Re .31
    
    >>    Yes but at that time it wasn't the right thing to say.
    
    Absolutely.  And when the the public ROARED in response, burning piles
    of Beatles records and the like, Lennon backed away rather timidly if 
    you'll recall.  Pretty good lesson in humility and learning one's place
    I'd say.
    
    Re .32
    
    >>Do you recall the source?
    
    No, but I remember hearing of a priest who refered to the song in a
    sermon as if it were about the Mary, the mother of the human Jesus.  When 
    the so called "Beatle Experts" quietly informed him that the song was 
    about resorting to dope for comfort, and not communing with Mary, he 
    had something "different" to say about the song in his next sermon.  It's 
    a common mistake and really a point of Beatle trivia.  
    
    -daev

.33

>    Other drug songs...
    
>    -Magical Mystery Tour
    
>    -I get by with a little help from my friends.
    
>    -Dr. Robert
    
>    -Jack

I never heard the last one. :-}  Was it anything like "Nowhere Man"? ;-)

I was aware Magical Mystery Tour was influenced by chemicals.  As probably
was much of the Sargent Pepper's Lonely Heart Club Band album.  I am hesitant
to say that the songs themselves were about drugs.

I know rumors swirled about the Beatles.  I remember the rumor that Paul
was dead and that his death had been covered-up.  It spread like wildfire.
Supposedly, clues for this great secret were revealed in peculiarities on
Beatle record album covers and lyrics to songs such as "Come Together Over
Me."

Hence, I am skeptical.  But perhaps I'm just a fool (without a hill).

    Ha ha!!  
    
    The song, "Dr. Robert" was the about the dentist that turned John and
    Paul onto acid.  Time magazine was quoted as saying the Sgt. Pepper
    album was "...drenched in drugs".  Ringo's song "a little help from my
    friends" at least hints on the subject.
    
    -Jack

    If you add "social" in front of "gospel" in the topic name, then you
    would be much more accurate.
    
    The Beatles never really appealed to me, not that they weren't good
    songwriters and weren't tallented, just that their music never really
    excited me that much.  A few songs I like, but those are a slim
    minority of thier offerings.  I guess that puts me in a slim minority
    here, eh?  8^)
    
    
    -steve        

    	Don't forget Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds!

    By the way, the whole "Paul is Dead" campaign was an actual occurance
    concocted by John and Paul.  At the time, record sales were in a slump
    and this was used as a marketing ploy...and it worked.  The back of
    Abbey Road is no doubt a clue, the White Albums "Revolution 9" is
    loaded with clues, and Magical Mystery Tour also has tons of them!
    
    -Jack

    .39
    
    It may be true.  I remain skeptical.  The Beatles have always been the
    target of criticism, especially from conservative quarters.  Some of
    it, doubtlessly, was deserved.  Some of it, doubtlessly, was trumped
    up.
    
    Richard
    

    Actually I think the whole Paul is Dead campaign was ingeniously done. 
    I see it as a great marketing ploy and it worked!
    
    -Jack

    Hurrah for marketing ploys.
    
    Richard
    

    Yes, the backbone of Capitalism!!!!

    What about that popular new song (don't know the artist) where the chorus 
    is...
    
      What if God was one of us.  
      Just a slob like one of us.
      On the bus like one of us.
      Trying to make his way home.
    
      In heaven all alone.
      No one calling on the phone
      'cept maybe the pope calling from Rome.
    
    
    Seems to be very popular.  Probably because it proposes the idea that 
    God might not so different and/or "unknowable".