Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Jerry,

	While I'm flattered that you've chosen to ask me, I'm hesitant to
say that I have the absolute answer on this or any question.  With that
disclaimer, allow me to share my perspective:

>He asked me if there was any Biblical substance to the theory that the
>father will suffer for the ills of his child, or that the child will suffer
>for the ills of his father.

There's some biblical support for the notion of God punishing descendants for
the sins of their fathers.  However, Ezekiel chapter 18 stands in direct
contradiction to this notion, citing individual responsibility as central.
I've never heard of it working in reverse, except that it seems to be a poor
reflection on the parent when the children are out of control (Timothy and
others, I think).

>Any time someone says "God damn" we tend to flinch and say "don't take the
>Lord's name in vain".  She said that in the "original" form the admonition of
>not taking the Lord's name in vain was intended to mean that one should not use
>the Lord's name to give "substance" or "weight" to that which had no substance
>or weight - dont' try to raise something to a higher status just by using the
>Lord's name - THIS is using the Lord's name in vain.  Is she right?

First of all, "God" isn't really the Lord's name.  Neither is "Lord."  These
are descriptions or titles.  I would agree, at least partially, with her,
though I confess, I have little idea about the origin.  I think the last
chapter of Jonah gives no small insight into the impulsive use of curses.

To me, the commandment about using the Lord's name in vain is connecting
the name of the Holy One with vulgarity, referring to God abusively,
disrespectfully, and/or irreverently; essentially "cheapening" or even
diluting the name of God.

Shalom,
Richard

    The passage that came to mind was how King Davids offspring with
    Bathsheba did die as a result of David's sin with her.  You might say 
    the child was denied life because of the sins of the father.  Also in
    Corinthians it does state that by one mans sin death passed to all
    mankind, for all have sinned.  However, eternal seperation can only be
    based on the heart of that one individual, not on the heart attitude of 
    the father or the son.   
    
    "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain."  I always
    believed this referred to cursing and using a phrase like, "God damn"
    I learn very recently however that this commandment was written in
    relation to vows we make to one another, then breaking them.  By
    breaking your vow you are taking the name of the Lord in vain.
    
    -Jack

    I have a question, is it legal to talk about such things in a public
    school environment?  I really am curious.  What kind of liability are
    you placing yourself in by having these discussions?
    
    But to answer your questions.  
    
    The one thing that is most interesting about this question is that
    it encompasses much of how Christ changed the judicial system.  In the old
    testament, father's were often held responsible for their children's
    behavior.  And likewise, a child could suffer the consequences of a
    parent's behavior.  
    
    With Christ, individual accountability became the place for justice.  
    With Christ, we no longer must assume the debts of our father's, as
    they must stand before God on judgement day.  You will not be judged
    for their choices and they will not be judged for yours.
    
    

    .3  I don't think Jerry said these dialogues had taken place in a
    public school environment.
    
    	I was at a burger stand the other day when a group of high school
    aged kids spotted a teacher from their school enter and place an order.
    The kids engaged the teacher in quite a long chat.
    
    	I'm sure, especially in smaller cities, teachers and students cross
    paths all the time.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    .4
    
    Nonetheless, whether in school or not, as a teacher, he could be
    placing himself in a very precarious situation with his students.  
    
    The students could claim they spoke to him at school...
    
    Sorry for being rather paranoid, but this is 1994 and I've seen
    worse injustice than in a situation like this one.
    

re Note 951.5 by JULIET::MORALES_NA:

>     The students could claim they spoke to him at school...
>     
>     Sorry for being rather paranoid, but this is 1994 and I've seen
>     worse injustice than in a situation like this one.
  
        They could claim that he molested them, too -- false
        accusations are *always* a hazard.

        Bob

    Each person is accountable before God for their own actions.
    
    Part of the responsibilities God gives a parent is to bring their
    children up in their faith; that is, giving them a proper catachism
    of the Christian faith and demonstrating by a holy life how to live
    as a Christian. 
    
    God judges the parents in their role in bringing up the child. Only
    God can adequately distinguish in the hearts and lives of parents
    and children how satisfactorily each has persued their
    responsibilities. 
    
    If the son in .0 was never brough up properly by his parents then 
    the parents will have to account for that to some degree, and 
    perhaps significantly, before God. 
    
    Likewise, the child will have to account for ignoring or 
    rejecting the many ways God, by his mercy and grace, has tried to
    offer him the Truth and Way of Salvation. 
    
    Only God can truly judge, but I'm sure that many many parents in
    this day and age are realizing too late that they failed to carry
    our with enough vigor this very important responsibility in 
    regards to their children.
    
    Such parents still have recourse to the Mercy of God. They need to
    face their failed responsibility, repent and confess this to God.
    Then they need to 1) pray much for their children, 2) continue
    to be converted themselves [surrendered to God's Will and the
    sanctification of the Holy Spirit in their lives]. Through these
    things they can be a positive witness to Christ through their
    conversion. In this way their child(ren) will have a good example
    of the goodness of God and be open to God's grace for conversion.
    
    It is wrong to try to mitigate the failure to bring children up
    properly in faith by chastening the child as was done in .0; this
    will never be successful and it will drive the person further from
    God.
    
    It is possible, on the other hand, that the parents did act
    responsibly towards God and their children by proper teachings,
    witness, catachists, worship, and lives of holiness. If this is
    the case then the child's later rebellion from the ways of God is
    not the fault of the parent.
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary
    
    
    
    
    

    Actually, we ALL have responsibility before God for anything that
    would lead another person away from God. Jesus particularly 
    emphasized this in the case of children. If we cause a child to
    stumble in faith or morals then it would be better for us if
    we had never been born!
    
    God intended mankind to be holy as He is Holy, to be perfect as
    the Heavenly Father is perfect. Sin is not a private matter; at
    some point even 'private sinners' seek others to join in their
    sin or seek to have others view the behavior as 'normal' rather
    than as sin. 
    
    In this way sinners 'lobby' the people around them to choose a
    path contrary to God's Word. This is a grave sin because it
    promotes sin rather than righteousness. Such people act as
    'false prophets' that lead others away from God. We will be held 
    accountable before God for all these things also.
    
    We are all sinners who fall short in the sight of God. We must
    live confessed and repentant lives whereby, through the Blood of
    Christ we are forgiven. Then, we must seek the Holy Spirit to
    keep us in Christ and to work through our lives to live a life
    holy before God and a witness of Christ. 
    
    Such an ongoing Christian walk separates us from ungodliness and
    helps us to better recognize such temptations to such anti-Christian
    moral and values the world offers, which are sins if lived.
    
    Divine Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary
    

    Tell Bubba Hi! I miss him.
    
    No, of course, the dad isn't going to hell because of the son actions.
    Where the dad goes depends on the dad.  The one has nothing to do with
    the other.
    
    However, there are verses that take about the father's sin being
    visited on his children I believe up to the 4th generation.  Now this
    is another thing entirely.  I believe that this is true, although not
    binding. There are consequences for sin.  For example, a family I know
    divorced years ago and the parents have a very hostile relationship. 
    The kids have definitely been affected by the divorce, by the ongoing
    hostilities, and will continue to be shaped by those experiences the
    rest of their lives.  It's damaged those kids.  The one boy is so
    unable to express his feelings that it will be very deterimental to him
    later in life. As he goes on and gets married and has kids...his not
    being able to deal with his feelings will mostly likely effect them and
    so on.  However, I do believe that the cycle can be broken.  I believe
    that anyone turning to God can stop that cycle.  I've had the pleasure
    of watching another guy from church who comes from a very closed
    non-expressive family just blossom in Christ.  It's been really
    beautiful to watch this metamorphosis. Yet I see his other brothers who
    haven't let Christ into there hearts stuck in a cage rather than a
    cocoon.  It's very sad.  
      
    Also something that might be good to bring out for the kid is Ephesians
    6:1-3  "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 
    Honor your father and mother - which is the first commandment with a
    promise - that is may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life
    on the earth."
    

>    				Parental curses can be very damaging.
>    	It was to Ham.  It was to Canaan.  Jacob also cursed some of
>    	his sons and really hurt them.  For instance, 'cursed be the
>    	anger of....'   'Reuben shall not excel/prosper'... 
    
    Jesus' blood cleanses us of generational sin/curses too.

    2 Corinthians 5:17 " Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new
    creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become
    new."

    You're welcome, Bro!  Here's another I read last night (actually the whole
    chapter is excellent!):
    
Romans 6:1
WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    How can a Spirit-filled being live any longer in sin?
    
    Mike

    Greg, I have no idea what you are talking about.
    
    thanks anyway,
    Mike

    How is that?  You were the one that asked for verses that defeat the
    notion of generational curses and I obliged.