| Title: | Discussions from a Christian Perspective |
| Notice: | Prostitutes and tax collectors welcome! |
| Moderator: | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE |
| Created: | Mon Sep 17 1990 |
| Last Modified: | Fri Jun 06 1997 |
| Last Successful Update: | Fri Jun 06 1997 |
| Number of topics: | 1362 |
| Total number of notes: | 61362 |
I just thought of sharing something which I think may become in the
future of great importance to the church.
Not too long ago we began a 'church' in East Germany. It was the third
one which I was involved with and the first one I was leading. We all
(the ones who started the work) lived in a single large house and were
through the somewhat primitave living conditions under different
pressures. Because of the newness of the work, we, and especially
myself, were confronted with many questions about what God really
wanted. Doctrinal issues amongst us also were not really clear. We were
sent by a cristian organization which had its beginnings during the
Jesus movement in the 70's, which I consider in many ways very good.
But we went through a somewhat trying time. We were all in some ways
immature and yet all wished from our hearts to follow Jesus and live
pleasing to him.
In a very intense time, as we had one of the main leaders from this
christian group trying to help us over certain problem issues, the
following vision was received by the wife of the christian leader.
(The problem was doctrinal differences concerning baptism as regarded
by the christian group and myself, the main leader)
I saw a small village where earthquakes occured very regularly. In the
middle of the village there was a large dark structure. Whenever there
were earthquakes, the people of the village would run to the middle of
the town where this structure was and try to hold it up. This structure
had a very great importance to the people, comparable to God himself.
For generations this structure had been so regarded. Then one day a
large earthquake came. The people of the village all rushed out to try
to hold it up, but to no avail. Before their eyes this large structure
fell to the ground. But, to their amazement, behind this structure
there was something so beautiful, like gold decked with jewels in its
brilliance. As the people stood awe-strucken looking at this beautiful
sight, they wondered why they had labored so hard trying to keep the
dark structure up.
Only 3 months later the interpretation and partial fulfillment
happened to all of us, as well as with our mother church in Munich.
During our beginnings in the late 60's early 70's, the Spirit of God
was poured out on many young people. We were in california and
experienced a time of God moving. With us, numbers of other christian
groups sprang up. In the beginning, these new organizations were very
flexible but soon began to become less-flexible and eventually became
almost the same as denominations in their structure. But since God had
been so involved with the people within them at the beginning, we began
to put to the christian organisations a very high importance. As we
would 'build the kingdom of God', we found ourselves very involved also
with 'building the organisation', and putting sometimes too much hope
or trust into it. Thus, we had a distorted view of the church, with our
organization being much too important. The christian organisation is
the dark structure. At first it was pliable and see-through but
eventually turned hard and dark. The organisation was placed upon
people who belonged to Christ's church. As these organisations grew,
many conflicts would occur where individuals would receive from the
Holy Spirit revelation which could not be integrated into the
inflexable christian organisation. They sometimes resulted in small
earthquakes within the organisation. When this would happen, many who
were loyal to the organisation would run to its aid, often not
knowingly, and sometimes resisting the working of the Holy Spirit,
which to a certain degree had become 'locked up within rigid walls'.
The 'big earthquake' is where many who were in the organization
experience themselves falling 'out' of the organization and the
organization to a certain degree ceasing to exist or falling apart. The
beautiful, glorious appearance then exposed of the Gold decked with
Jewels is the Church of Jesus Christ again exposed openly, no longer
covered with any 'clothing or structure'.
Since about 1800 Years this structure has existed, started when the
church became involved in building the most powerful, righteous
organization which ever existed, the catholic empire at the time of
Constantine. Since then again and again earthquakes have happened where
the church was exposed to a certain degree. But then a new organization
was started and soon clothed the church again. Is God not ready to
begin revealing himself in a church without the organization, like a
heavenly Jerusalem above acting like a magnet and attracting his people
which are still tied down in church organisations? Could the end-time
church be similiar to the early church, operating outside of the
structure?
| T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 822.1 | AIMHI::JMARTIN | Tue Jan 11 1994 10:05 | 28 | ||
My wife was on staff with Campus Crusade for Christ a total of ten
years. I too was saved through this valuable ministry and hold their
work in high esteem as well as other groups like Intervarsity and The
Navigators. However:
Jesus Christ set up the local church (ecclesia), meaning the local body
or assembly. I believe personally that it is the job of the local
church to send out missionaries and that all these parachurches should
be under the auspices of the local church. Although these groups are
making a mark that is hard or impossible to erase, we have to ask
whether or not they meet the requirements set forth in 1st Timothy and
the like. Without mature leadership, a group with the best of
intentions can go astray and may end up doing more harm in the long run
than good.
Solution: The local church I believe is lukewarm. I believe at the
end times, it will be apostate, (fallen away). The local church needs
to:
1. Get rid of any tradition that nullifies the Word of God.
2. Get rid of the Philosophies of man.
3. Stick to the Word of God and step out in faith within their
communities.
4. Get off the committee shtick and understand why they are really
there.
We don't need to buy a new house, just clean up the old one!!
-Jack
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| 822.2 | AKOCOA::FLANAGAN | honor the web | Tue Jan 11 1994 10:14 | 7 | |
re 822.0
That's beautiful.
Thank you for sharing it.
Patricia
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| 822.3 | A good question.... | VNABRW::BUTTON | Today is the first day of the rest of my life! | Tue Jan 11 1994 10:38 | 47 |
Re: .0 Thank you, I found that very interesting. And that is a good point that you have raised. The Old Testament teaching - which Jesus set forth - was the direct individual access to God. The priest of the Old Covenant was not an intermediary between the individual and God. First Paul, with his Hellenistic-influenced Judaism, (and to some extent Gnostic-touched John), placed Jesus as the intermediary figure: from then on, salvation was only possible through Him. Once the idea of an intermediary had been established, the early church had little qualms - and little difficulty - in setting up a heirachy of bishops, priest and deacons, each of whom, to a greater or lesser degree, assumed intermediary roles, putting the individual further and further away from direct access. The such an establishment will, from time to time, find itself under attack is self-evident. Many attacks have been averted by means of a strict dogmatic underscoring of certain doctrines, thus making the potential attacker a sinner from the word go. The result was that, when a dogma came under attack, the intensity of the attack was greater because of the extreme positions the dogma itself had created. Your earthquakes became stronger. (It is interesting to note that the most energetically defended dogmas are those which stand on the fewest legs). I find it tragic that a movement - any movement, but especially the Christian movement - should set itself up on a "tectonic fault". There is such a huge potential for good in the Christian mission - I admit this as a non-christian - which, I fear, will never come to full fruition because its members expend too much energy holding up the walls and clearing away the rubble. I fear that, as far as your vision is concerned, when the walls do finally collapse, the structure revealed will not resemble that in your vision. I would hope that I am wrong. The above to be seen is an expression of my opinion although much, if not all, is supported by many church historians and theologans. Greetings, Derek. PS: I wish you luck with your programme in East Germany. Most of the "noise" coming from there in recent months has been rather negative (Neo-Nazi, etc.) | |||||
| 822.4 | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Tue Jan 11 1994 14:17 | 31 | |
.0
Was a beautiful example of how *we* take our eyes of Jesus and place
them on temporal things. In Revelations it speaks of a church that had
left its *first* love. I believe this first love is building the
kingdom of God, reaching others with the Gospel. When Christ ascended
into Heaven, his admonition was to *spread the Gospel*, that was the
first thing they were to do. Likewise, I believe that the first love
in our congregations should be building the kingdom of God.
Now, I go to a church who's first love is reaching others with the
Gospel. It also not tied in to any organization. My church is
independent, which I believe is what New Testament churches should be.
Can an independent church lose focus of the first love? Yes, it can,
but when the charter of the church is to win the lost, its very
difficult to remain in the backslidden state... there's usually an
ember that will get the fire growing.
Our focus should always be towards winning the lost [unsaved]...
Here is what God said about that church in Revelations 2:
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left
thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do
the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy
candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Nancy
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| 822.5 | Thanks for your remarks | EVTSG8::DUSATKO | Wed Jan 12 1994 06:34 | 17 | |
Thank you for your replies. I really rejoice hearing about the 'Direct
relationship' with God, without the mediators(I really see Jesus as God
and therefore have no problem seeing him as a mediator to the Father).
Whether Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jakob, Joseph, Moses, Josua, Gideon,
David, Daniel, etc., the Bible makes clear that we are to each be such
as they, where we often hear from God directly. Jesus said that his
sheep hear his voice. There is nothing so meaningful in our lives as
our direct relationship with Jesus and the Father. It is natural that
wee, too, will be such as they were, living stones in the eternal,
heavenly Jerusalem, where God himself molded and formed each of us.
I was greatly encouraged too by the simple answer of Patricia, because
I too find it beautiful what God is doing, and the purpose of my life
is directly connected to seeing the church glorious and beautiful. And
I also found the response Nancy gave of the importance of Jesus as our
first Love as essential. Our love for Jesus is the most important thing
of all, more important than our works. Heaven is for those who love
him. Thank for your encouraging remarks!
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