Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Cindy:
    
    Are the writings thus far from 805 part of the foundation of your
    beliefs?  Is this the source of your inspiration?
    
    -Jack

    
    
    Cindy,
    
     I just finished reading both of ytour entries. I will meditate on them
    tonight and discuss them with you tomorrow.. 
    
    
    David

    
    Questions will be answered when they're all entered, Jack.
    
    Ask again in a few days.
    
    Cindy

    
    
    Cindy,
    
     I have read and re-read your entries. I have no questions. I disagree
    with you.
    
    
    David

    Cindy:
    
    Is this a Christian behavior perspective or a Christian perspective?
    
    -Jack

        
    David,
    
    You disagree with me, or with what is written in 805?
    
    Jack,
    
    Not sure what you're asking.  Scott Peck is a psychiatrist and a
    Christian, yet it is a more universal view of what he saw happening
    over his decades of practice as a psychiatrist.
    
    Cindy

    Cindy,
    
    I enjoyed reading the excerps.  I skimmed the book a few years ago but
    did not remember much of it.  I am much more familiar with S. Scot
    Peck's book The Road Less Travelled which I highly recommend.
    
    It was helpful reflecting on the stages of Spiritual Growth.  Thank you
    for posting the information.
    
    Patricia

    
    You're welcome, Patricia.  Yes, RLT is a great book.  He wrote that one
    first, then People Of The Lie, this one, and a newer one which talks
    about integrity that I have but have not yet read.
    
    Cindy

    
    
    CINDY,
    
      If 805 represents your beliefs then I guess I disagree with your
    beliefs.
    
    David

    
    David,
    
    Well...what is presented is not exactly a set of beliefs.  It's more a
    frame of reference to place my beliefs in, and why they don't exactly
    line up with yours.
    
    However, remarking on the writings themselves, can you be a little more 
    specific as to what you don't agree with?
    
    Cindy

	Cindy, 805 was nice. I liked it a lot. 



Glen

  Rather nice I might say...however, I'd stop considerably short of 
 tailgating the author at the time his life on earth comes to and end.



 Jim

    
    Jim,
    
    Given your belief system, you should probably be only tailgating
    Christ, yes?
    
    Cindy

 Well, what I was trying to say, in a light hearted way, was from what
 I read, I wouldn't depend on this man's writings to lead me to heaven, but
 of course that is based on my "belief system"





 Jim

    
    True.  In your belief system, you use the Bible exclusively to lead you
    to heaven, yes?
    
    Cindy<

    
    
    CINDY,
    
     Would Jesus have been at stage 4?

    
    Not sure of your question, David.  Are you asking about Jesus the
    person, or if he 'walks' with people whereever they are at, regardless
    of the stage?
    
    Cindy

RE:             <<< Note 806.15 by TNPUBS::PAINTER "Planet Crayon" >>>

    
   > True.  In your belief system, you use the Bible exclusively to lead you
   > to heaven, yes?
    
   

    Not exactly.  Its faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement for my sins
    as revealed in the Bible that will get me to heaven.




 Jim

    
    Thanks for the clarification, Jim.  Yes, that makes a lot more sense.
    
    Cindy

    
    
    Cindy,
    
     The Jesus as described in the bible. The Jesus that you believe
    was able to forgive the sins of the people in his time frame visa
    via the karmic credit plan( :-) not quite sure how you put it but
    thats how I remember it, no slander intended)..
    
    Was Jesus at the mystic level 4 ?
    
    David

    I see a lot of similarity between Peck's thesis and Paul's in 1 Cor.
    When we are spiritually children we need the law.  When mature(this is
    Paul's contrast in 1 Cor 3), we have the mind of Christ, deep within us.
    A presence that demands a response.   When we are under Law, we are
    required  to look things up in our code book and follow the perscribed 
    course of action and thought.  When spiritually discerned we are more 
    intuititive(mystical) in our paths, connected to all of lifes flow,
    feeling the connection of all things around us.
    
    Of course another possibility has to do with personality types.  I have
    discovered Myers Briggs fairly recently and I know that as a
    inituitive, perceptive type(NP) I like things that are wholistic and open
    ended  where sensory judgmental types(SJ) like things that are detailed
    and definitive.  THose things have much to do with our spiritual
    orientations.  I took a 10 hour course in Myers Briggs and spirituality
    and it was very interesting.
    
    Patricia   

    David,
    
    re -2.
    
    I would say that Jesus was at the level 4 mystical stage.  How else
    could he walk into the temple and disrupt everything.  How else could
    he ignore the Pharisees and know what was truly right action.  How much
    of his time did he spend on the mountain in prayer and meditation.  
    
    Just my opinion though.
    
    Patricia

    
    David,
    
    Jesus was off the scale.  Far, far beyond beginning level 4 (mo).
    
    Cindy

    
    
    
    Cindy, Patricia,
    
    > level 4
    >off the scale
    
     ..stay tuned :-)

    Re my 806:21
    
    I am a little uncomfortable with my response here because I note some
    personal arrogance to it that I don't like in myself so I apoligize if
    I have offended anyone with it.
    
    The spiritual paths identified by Peck does correspond to my spiritual
    journey.  I cannot and should not speak about anyone else's spiritual
    journey.   I know that I left the church a long time ago because I
    could not literally accept the teachings.  I was not mature enough to
    talk to anyone about my feelings.  Perhaps I was not even that aware of
    them.  I was 18 and many 18 year olds leave the church.  I was a
    secular humanist for the next fifteen years.   I have no aversion to
    secular humanists.  I deeply respect secular humanists.  I found my way
    into the UU church and into the world of ACOA and the 12 step programs
    and gradually began to ask myself what is this spirituality thing.  I
    searched, asked many people that question, listened carefully I hope to
    the answers, and gradually began to loose myself and find myself
    simultaneously in the process.  My life was transformed by the process. 
    I have discovered as many of you have that the journey is an incredible
    journey.  As a recoverying ACOA I am making the journey back to
    reclaiming my childhood.  Christianity was a big part of my childhood
    and I am revisiting it and reclaiming it.  The Christianity that I am
    reclaiming though is much bigger and much fuller and much richer than
    the Christianity I knew as a child.  It is amazing that my journey has
    lead me to this notes file and to Andover Newton where I have the
    incredible gift of studying about religion and the Bible and
    Christianity.  My journey has lead me to the UU church where I have
    incredible resources regarding spirituality, World Religions,
    Neo-Paganism.  I have discovered a wonderful passion to
    understand how all these fit together.  My journey is leading me to
    understanding Christianity from historical, literary, cultural,
    psychological, feminist, sociological, spiritual, mystical, existencial
    perspectives.  When I feel comfortable that I understand what the "main
    message" of Christianity is all about then I will compare it myself to
    the main messages of Neo-paganism, and Hinduism, and Judaism, and
    Bhudism, and existentialism, and  other religions in which I am
    interested in and make the decision myself about where there are
    similarities and what the essential differences are.  I will decide
    whether the 12 blind men studying an elephant metaphor works or does
    not work.
    
       I am sometimes bothered in this notes conference when others tell me
    what I am suppose to believe or how I am suppose to worship.  I feel
    that each of us owns our own spirituality and our own journeys.  I am
    convinced that each of us has the same Guide on this incredible
    journey.  I wish there were more acceptance and respect in this file
    for each other and for the personal journeys of each of the
    participants in this conference.
    
    Patricia
      

    Patricia,
    
    I, too, am a NP according to this little test. :-)  And I know several
    others how have tested the same... seems a little funny to me since
    they make a NP sound so rare by claiming only 10% of the Universe are
    such animals.  Not sure I put too much stock in this test.
    
    Nancy

    Nancy 
    
    10% sounds low for NP's.  But then if 1/3 of the people were N's and
    1/3 P's then .16 would be NP's.
    
    My four letters are INFP which I know makes up 1% of the population but
    a much larger percent of persons who find there way into Unitarian
    Universalism.
    
    I do notice though that I tend to seek 
    out other NP's.  I am in a job(Finance) though where SJ's are more
    common.  It is interesting understanding and bridging the differences. 

    Hmmm... I'm an ENFP.. :-)  

    I, too, come out ENFP (Hi, Nancy) on MB, the long test.  But on a
    continuum I was shown, I'm just barely over the line between E and
    I (Extrovert and Introvert).
    
    It was also explained to me that these qualities have more to do with
    how one does one's mental processing than personality characteristics.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    .29
    
    Rest my case! :-) :-) :-)

    .30  You're probably trying to parallel the wrong things, Nancy.
    It's easy to do.  Though there's doubtlessly a multitude of ways
    in which you and I are unlike, there are doubtlessly *some* ways
    (whether or not you like the idea) in which we *are* quite a bit
    alike.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    .31
    
    Well, I'm of the opinion that in many ways all humankind is alike. 
    Although our personalities reflect those emotions differently, I
    believe we all process the same emotions and feel the same things.
    
    Nancy

    .32  I concur with that.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    
    
    Cindy,
    
     Did Jesus have to go through the steps 1,2,3,4, on up?
    
    
    Patricia,
    
     If Jesus is a level 4 then why did he condemn certain things?
    
    David

James Fowler identified 7 levels of faith, 1 in infancy and 6 stages beyond.
(See Note 75.0 for an overview of Fowler's Stages of Faith.)

It must be remembered that these classifications are "fuzzy edged," that is,
really only identifying various points along a continuum.  Such classifications
are useful in discussing spiritual growth of individuals and of groups.
Individuals and groups are observed in order to arrive at the characteristics
of the classification.

Jesus would be an exception.  Jesus is not (usually) among those observed in
arriving at the classifications.

Peace,
Richard

    
    David,
    
    Not in the lifetime He lived 2000 years ago.
    
    Cindy

    David,
    
    Which Jesus?
    
    1.  Jesus as potrayed in the Bible.
      -Matthew?
      -Mark?
      -Luke?
      -John?
    2.  Jesus as Myth and metaphor of the perfect spiritual being/God
    Incarnate?
    3.  Jesus as historic person?
    4.  Jesus as divine person?
    
    My identifying Jesus as a four relates to number 2 and my understanding of
    the bible is influenced by my metaphor of Jesus as perfect spiritual
    being.  I discard all the weeping and gnashing of teeth that I read
    attributed to Jesus.    I struggle with the seven different images of
    Jesus identified above.  I suspect that you see more of a unity of
    images than I do.
    
    Patricia
    
    What does it mean to condemn certain practices?  Some of the practices
    condemned I don't understand i.e. the talent parable.
    
    David, I suspect you may have difficulty with this answer because of
    our differing assumptions about the nature of the bible, the value of
    myth and metaphor, and perhaps even the meaning of Jesus.

    
    
    Cindy,
    
    > Not in the lifetime He lived 2000 years ago
    
     Why?
    
    David

    
    
    Patricia,
    
    > which Jesus
    
     The one you rated as a 4.
    
    > I suspect
    
      ..lets play it out anyway
    
    David

 He's number 1 in my book.






 Jim

    David,
    
    So my metaphor of Jesus is that of the perfect spiritual being?
    
    Your question is "Why did he condemn certain things?"
    
    So the question then is how does the truly spiritual person confront
    evil?  How does the truly spiritual person deal with different
    interpretations of what is evil?  Which evils should one choose to
    confront and which evils should be ignored?
    
    The most commonly cited modern example is Nazi Germany.  Too many
    spiritual people chose to do nothing and therefore tremendous evil was
    perpetuated.  Is every person who chose to do nothing responsible?
    
    The ancient example is the cruxifiction of Jesus?  Is every person who
    chose to do nothing equally responsible?
    
    Present day U.S. examples are rascism, poverty and abuse of children?
    Is every person who chooses to do nothing equally responsible?
    
    In Matthew Jesus states that at the day of Judgement what a person does
    to anyone else is the same as doing it to Jesus,  What one does not do
    for anyone else is is not doing it for Jesus.
    
    Is this what the meaning of the cruxifiction is?  Every person who does
    not prevent evil from happening in fact participates in the evil.  And
    the evil to others is the evil to Jesus himself, is the cruxifiction? 
    And each of us allows evil to happen around us so each of us is
    responsible.

    
    David,
    
    From his youth, He was teaching the fellows in the temple...this is
    just one indication that He was fairly conscious of who He 
    (himself) was at a fairly early age, and what He was here to do. 
                                       
    Cindy

    
    
    Cindy,
    
    > and what HE was here to do
    
     ...and as his mission unfolded he said there were things that were
    right and things that were wrong, was this Jesus fully developed or
    growing through this stage  2 ?
    
    David

    
    David,
    
    He was speaking to those who were/are primarily in stage 2.
    
    Cindy

    
    -1
    
      Jesus catered to the weaker side of two's?? Reinforcing(sp)??
    
    
    David

    
    Was that a question, David?
    
    Cindy

    
    -1 Cindy,
    
    
     It had all the usual things associated with a question i.e. question
    marks :-) :-)
    
    David

    
    Oh, OK, David.  Thanks for clarifying.  (;^)
    
    Having thought about it after leaving for vacation, I realized I should
    have included the Stage 1 people in the reply a few notes ago.  
    
    Having said that, I think that Jesus was putting down the laws for the 
    weaker side of *all* people, regardless of where they are at.  For some 
    the laws will be a gentle reminder to get them on track (Stage 2), for 
    some the laws will be a reference point (Stage 3 and 4), and for others 
    the laws will be the first time in their life they submitted themselves 
    to 'higher principles' (Stage 1).
    
    Cindy
       

    
    
    Cindy,
    
     So does Jesus really mean that x is a sin,and hence a law states "
    thou must not do x" and if so why in your example earlier( a community
    of people were put together with a range of stages) did stage 4 people
    scoff at the rules that the stage 2 people followed???
    
    not stated well but please bare with me :-)
    
    David

Note 806.49

    ....but please bare with me :-)
    
David,

	Invitational naturism, perhaps?

:-}

Richard

    
    -1
    
    > invitational naturism, perhaps
    
    ....touche Richard :-) 
    
    David

    
    Care Bares?
    
    Cindy