Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

re Note 721.0 by VNABRW::BUTTON:

>     	Hellooooooo! Is anyone there?
>     
>     	(I wondered if the recent visit of the Pope to USA is in any way
>     	connected with the extraordinary silence in CP recently).
  
        I think TFSO, the general mood around digital, and summer are
        sufficient to explain the quiet.

        Bob

    That's true, Bob, but I noticed that it got *really* quiet after
    Richard Jones-Christie took a long leave.  Not surprizing, though,
    if you look at the directory and see that a majority of topics were
    started by him.  Plus, he was active in quite a few discussions in 
    this conference every day.  I'd venture to say that this conference
    misses him.
    
    
    Steve

    
>    	Seriously, though.  What impressions do you have from his visit?
>    	What impact is his visit likely to have on US and/or Catholic
>    	society in the future?

    I don't think his visit really had all that much of an impact except 
    for the area around where he was and the people who came to see him.
    The US is BIG and media reports of events 2000 miles away, even though
    in the same country, often have all the impact of actual events in distant
    countries.

    I know some young people who went out west to see the Pope. I haven't 
    talked to them about their trip but I would expect that as they were
    solidly in his camp, so to speak, before they went that that hasn't
    changed too much. Perhaps they are a bit inspired to do something more
    but they were all doing alot before.

    			Alfred

    
.    	Seriously, though.  What impressions do you have from his visit?
 

        what sticks out in my mind the most is his arrival in Denver and
        the typical welcome speech from Mr Clinton, and then the Pope's
        poking at Mr Clinton on the abortion issue, which was repeated
        a couple of times.  I'm sure Mr Clinton was glad to see him leave
        town.


        To me, though not a Catholic, I found it rather nice to have
        God on the top of the news for a few days, 


. 	What impact is his visit likely to have on US and/or Catholic
.    	society in the future?
    
 
        On the US?  Probably none.  Like Christmas and Easter we focus
        for a few days on the real important things in life, then rather
        quickly go back to focusing on other things.  I think its similar
        with the Pope's visit.




 Jim

    	Well, there was some echo. I was beginning to feel like one of
    	those characters in, I think, On the Beach  (the world after a
    	nuclear war).
    
    	To .1 Bob:  I know what TFSO *does* (it moves some of our best
    	people to other branches of industry) but what do the initials
    	stand for?
    
    	To .2 Steve:  You're right, Richard was a real motor in this
    	conference.  I hope his absence is only temporary. Your "I'd
    	venture to say that this conference misses him" must rate as
    	the understatement of 1993.
    
    	To .3 Alfred:  (To get back to CP-like topics).  I guess, for
    	the most part, the Pope was "preaching to the converted" so, as
    	you say, the most likely effect is a sort of energy-boost for
    	them and water off a duck's back for the rest.  We tend to
    	oversee just how big America is and how little impact a bang in
    	LA has in NY.  Austria is only 600-700 miles from end to end
    	(one time zone which we share with our neighbours left and right.
    	Even so, we always get *full* coverage of the Pope's trips around
    	the world and of his speec... er sermons.  I would venture to 
    	guess - judging from your and other's reaction to this note - that
    	he made more waves in Austria as a result of his USA mission than
    	he did on your eastern seaboard.
    
    	Greetings, Derek.

    TFSO - Transition Financial Support Option (Officially)
    TFSO - Thanks For Shoving Off (unofficially)

    			Alfred

I was in Denver the Monday before the pope's arrival.  My spouse and I
took in a most fascinating exhibit at the Denver Historical Society
entitled, "Vatican Treasures."

It included Michaelangelo's famous sculpture, The Pieta.  It was remarkable,
though a copy (made from a mold of the original).  You could see every vein
and the subtle protrusion of every bone.

Interestingly, Michaelangelo gave Jesus' mother, Mary, the facial features
of a young maiden, symbolizing her purity.

While there, I gained a new respect for the artwork of Bernini.

Peace,
Richard

    >It included Michaelangelo's famous sculpture, The Pieta.  It was remarkable,
>though a copy (made from a mold of the original).  You could see every vein
>and the subtle protrusion of every bone.

    Incredible piece of work isn't it? I remember it when it (the
    original) came to NYC for the Worlds Fair. It was behind glass and you
    looked on it while standing on a moving conveyer belt. A number of 
    years later at the Vatican I was amazed to see it up close and with
    no security but a rope in front of it. Unfortunately someone took a
    sledge hammer to it and now it's back in an alcove with bulletproof
    glass in front of it. :-( It is, BTW, the only statue Michaelangelo
    ever signed. It seems he overheard someone crediting it to an other
    sculptor and ran home for his hammer and chisel.

    BTW, if you think his Pieta is something, you should see his Moses!

    			Alfred

    Right, Alfred!  Michaelanglo's name is hidden "in plain sight"
    along the hem of Mary's garment.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    I just had to reply having been close to the news of the popes visit.
    If nothing else, his visit caused some people to think once again of
    their beliefs.  It is always hard if not impossible to measure 
    that sort of impact.
    
    One interesting story I heard was a reporter talking to a hotel bellhop
    in Denver. The hotel was sold out to some of the pope seeking youngsters.
    He said that he was amazed at the amount of self control and
    non-destructive behavior he witnessed.  He said that the maids and the
    hotel management were almost bewildered by the lack of trouble and,
    in fact, help they recieved while the "youngsters" were there.  They had 
    had a number of youth groups (non-christian) in the past and had never
    seen anything like this.
    
    Was there any impact - I'm sure if you had a chance to talk to the
    people that these young christians came in contact with, you would 
    hear an outstanding yes!  I'm sure that there was at least 
    one soul saved during this visit and I'm equally sure that we all would
    agree that is enough impact for me.
    
    Duane

Pope John Paul II's message during his present visit seems to emphasize
ecumenism, strengthening families, and being open to the immigrant, the
poor and the homeless.

I applaud him for this message and pray him strength to carry on in
these godly pursuits.

Peace,
Richard

    
    "Freedom is not the freedom to do what one want's, but the
    freedom to do what one ought."

    			Pope John Paul II

    The words of the Pope make it very clear that the Roman Catholic
    church most definitely supports the concept of the social Gospel,
    and our obligation, as individuals, as the Christian collective
    and as Americans to follow it. 

    Eric

    Eric:
    
    The term "Gospel" as I view it means "Good News".  In the context of
    the word gospel, good news connotes "The Way" as Jesus put it.  The
    good news or the message of reaping eternal life with Jesus Christ.
    
    ZZ    "Freedom is not the freedom to do what one want's, but the
    ZZ     freedom to do what one ought."
    
    Ever see "The Ten Commandments"?  Charlton Heston made a profound
    statement just before he threw the tablets on the ground.  He stated
    the "Without the law, there is no freedom."  And Cecile DeMilles was
    right and very smart for putting that line into the movie.  I think the
    Pope was stating something similar when he stated the above.  
    
    However, the Social Gospel...AS A MEDIATOR TOOL BETWEEN HUMANKIND AND
    GOD, is not an adequate substitute for the payment of sin.  The social
    gospel would be better termed as practicing and living the Fruit of the
    Spirit.  This would take place after one has become born again.
    
    

    Oh, great.  Charlton Heston's movie lines.
    
    Richard
    

    Yeah...wasn't he great?!  
    
    Oh...I get it.  You dislike Heston because he's an NRA advocate right?
    
    -Jack

    
    Jack,

    The Social Gospel and the Salvation Gospel are inseparable! Over and
    over and over I, and others, have denied that good works are payment
    for sin, and yet those words have continuously been put in my mouth.
    Stop implying that is what I've said, please. 

    Some people may react first to the notion of their receiving eternal
    life before they participate in acts of charity, love and peace.
    Other's may first follow the ideal of loving their neighbor before they
    come to accept the full message of Christ. But that's just it, the FULL
    message of Christ, the full gospel, is not just: Jesus died, you're
    saved. I think it is bad to focus so heavily on that one aspect of
    Christianity. It's like supply and demand, the chicken and the egg...
    it's a package deal. 


    Eric

    .15
    
    No, I don't dislike Charleton Heston.  "The Ten Commandments," the
    motion picture, has not withstood well the test of time.  Moreover,
    the script varied significantly from the book.
    
    But, we digress from the topic.
    
    Richard
    

    Eric...
    
    I'm sorry about that.  I think it important to reiterate because there
    are many who feel the social gospel is the do all end all and the
    salvation gospel is of no consequence.  
    
    One who promotes the social gospel over the salvation gospel can tend
    to blind themselves of their own spiritual need.  One who does
    wonderful acts of kindness eventually falls into the trap of saing,
    "Surely God is pleased with me and will embrace me into his kingdom."
    
    Remember that account of the rich young ruler, "...My lord, all these
    commandments have I done since my youth."  Jesus said, "You have done
    well, yet there is one thing you lack.  Go, sell all your posessions
    and follow me."  The young ruler realized following Jesus (The
    salvation gospel) had a heavy price.  
    
    So Eric, I don't mean to imply the wrong thing, I'm sorry.  I just hope
    it is understood that although the two gospels go hand in hand, the
    social gospel means nothing without the salvation gospel.
    
    -Jack

    
    Jack,

    That support's the social gospel! You missed a *very* important part of
    the scripture quote.... 

    MARK 10:21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, "You are
    lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to (the) poor
                                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me."
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


    Also see Matthew and Luke.

    Eric

    Hey you stinker....you cheated!  You weren't supposed to do that!!!!!
    
    Mods.  Please reprimand Eric.  He isn't playing fair!!!!! %')
    
    I'm going home!

    
    ...But I want *everyone* to win! 
    
    	

    Of course it was tongue in cheek! :-)  Actually, I want everybody to
    win also.  I see the synoptic gospels as a life and times display of
    Jesus and his ministry.  I see the gospel of John as a sound
    doctrinally adequate section of the Bible and is a good source as to
    what Jesus purpose was on earth, and how to have a personal
    relationship with Him.  
    
    -Jack

    
    I forgot my smiley face, Jack. I'm sure you want everyone to win.
    
    Eric

    
    OK then - the message of Revelation - God wins!  (;^)