Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

.0> In ancient times, most households contained little icons, idols in which
.0> spirits were supposed to dwell.  ....................................

     Don't know that your reference to ancient times was indeed true of the
     Israelites,  especially  during  the  time  they were wandering in the
     desert after their escape from Egypt.  So,  although  most  understand
     the  First  Commandment to be addressing the scenario you described, I
     would not say it resulted in the First Commandment, as you seem to  me
     to  be  implying.   But  that's  only  conjecture on my part.  Please,
     anyone, feel free to correct me.

     But speaking of the First Commandment  applying  to  situations  other
     than those experienced by those very early Jews; was "gods", as in, "I
     shall not have strange gods before Me", really meant to  be  referring
     to  *anything*  that comes between God and humans (money, fame, etc.),
     or just supernatural beings (Thor, Isis, etc)?

     Think "Peace",

     Alvin

Retrieval rating: 100, Document: bible$disk:[BIBLE.OT]05-DEUT--5.-KJV;1
***********************
5:7  Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
5:8  Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven �image,� [or] any
likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is]
in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the
***********************
Alvin .1,

Although often intertwined under the general heading of idolatry, as I
understand it, these two stand as separate (the first and second)
commandments of the Ten Commandments.

Peace,
Richard

     ... but consider the source.  :^D

     Well, should we start a new note with my question or should  we  allow
     people to comment on either one here?

     Think "Peace",

     Alvin

    Richard:

               I think we still have these "little icons".
               We call them televisions.  :-)



                                                               Mike

    Alvin .4,
    
    	Forgive me if I sounded as if yours was not a relevant question.
    I believe it is.
    
    	I think we do have many gods whom we pretend not to worship:
    power, prestige, material wealth, youthfulness, attractiveness,
    athletic abilities, sex, etc..  I think it's possible to make gods
    of even one's beliefs.  [How's that for Zen-like thinking, Mike
    Seabury .4? 8-}]
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    Re.5

        Richard:


          Not bad, yer getting the hang of it.

          On a serious note, your are right we can and do make gods
         of our beliefs and these are the biggest and strongest idols
         of them all because we are the most attached to these.

         Now back to a less serious note. Repeat after me, Richard:

         Kill the Buddha, Kill the Buddha, Kill the Buddha....

         By George I think you've got it.

                                                               Mike

re: Note 462.0 by Richard "Peace Reservist" 

>In ancient times, most households contained little icons, idols in which
>spirits were supposed to dwell.  

It does seem that the early Jewish understanding considered the Lord more 
ineffable than that of some other neighboring peoples.

A tidbit I learned in a Bible study course is that one major difference in the 
Jewish understanding of God from the surrounding tribes was the concept of 
"place".

Households had their gods, towns, villages, mountains, passes, watering holes,
et cetera, all had their gods.  To go to a different village was to be in the
presence/jurisdiction/? of a different god.  

Yahweh transcended place, and was understood to be present everwhere.  As 
Buckaroo Banzai might have said, "no matter where you go, there God is."

I don't know what influence this had, (or vice versa), on the cultural and
social differences between nomadic and settled peoples, between hunter 
gatherers and agricultural based peoples.  (There is also probably some 
insight to be had in exploring God/Goddess differences, but this note probably
ain't the place. .-) 

>The idea here was that the homeowner and the household god would share 
>something of a symbiotic relationship.

Yahweh made several covenants, with individuals, and with the nation of 
Isreal.  Generally the agreement was something like "have faith in me, 
believe in me, follow me, and I will be your God and take care of you."

I'm not sure if that can be considered symbiotic, it's hard for me to 
understand what real benefit God derived from that, but I'll chalk that up to 
my non-omniscient nature... .-)

>A household god could be bargained with, and to some degree, could be
>manipulated or controlled.
>
>Apparently, God is not one to be controlled.  Idolatry was made a major
>offense.  It is a violation of one of the Ten Commandments.

The Pentatuch has several stories of bargaining with the Lord.  One admired 
characteristic of the Patriarchs was their shrewdness and cleverness, which 
included the occasional bargaining and shady dealing, sometimes with God.

Peace,

Jim

    I think the custom of having household shrines continues to this day,
    even in Christian homes.  One doesn't have to drive very far, at least
    in my area of the country, to see "bathtub Madonnas" sitting out on
    the front lawns of homes, for instance.
    
    Mike

    "Bathtub Madonnas", etc., even true Icons, are not worshiped. 
    They are reminders of our faith and heavenly family in faith and
    they are a means of focusing our attention on God. When devotional
    practices involve statues, etc., once again it is only as a means of
    expressing the love, devotion, and worship that we wish to give to
    God were he present in the flesh to recieve it. It is very similar to
    the way a family will make a special place for treasured family photos
    and momentoes and surround them with flowers.
    
    

    I had a discussion with my wife on this subject. In our town, my wife 
    arranged to have an indian medicine man perform a tree/earth blessing
    for the towns girl/boy scouts. The ceremony took place in our town
    at an Indian Reservation (grafton, Ma.). The ceremony revolved around
    " Earth Day" this year.
    
    I felt un-easy with the ceremony.....first commandment reasons. My wife
    said that it was only to show the reverance to nature/earth. 
    Comments?
    
    Marc H.

     I was just concerned that my note  would  move  us  down  a  rat-hole,
     Richard.  I didn't take offense.

     Think "Peace",

     Alvin

Note 462.7

>Households had their gods, towns, villages, mountains, passes, watering holes,
>et cetera, all had their gods.  To go to a different village was to be in the
>presence/jurisdiction/? of a different god.  

What you are refering to here is mentioned throughout the Bible, Jim.  I was
amazed to see by running LGP30::BIBLESERVER just how many times the term
"image" is used in the KJV to describe such circumstances.

>The Pentatuch has several stories of bargaining with the Lord.  One admired 
>characteristic of the Patriarchs was their shrewdness and cleverness, which 
>included the occasional bargaining and shady dealing, sometimes with God.

Yes, this has been something of a curiosity for me.  However, if the Bible
is looked upon as being a record of an evolving understanding of God, it all
begins to make sense.

Peace,
Richard

    Marc .10,
    
    The native americans I know believe that we are all the sons and
    daughters of one God.  The earth is oftentimes considered "church,"
    where ceremonial objects reflect much of this theme.  These objects are
    used to praise and give thanks to God, or the Great Spirit, and Creation. 
    Most of the differences you saw were probably contextual. 
    
    I admire your wife arranging for this ceremony and, I sense, your support 
    of it, despite your discomfort.  
    
    Karen

I have a small statue of St. Joseph which I keep on my desk at home.
It serves at a reminder.  It know that it has no divine properties.
I do not worship it.  I do occasionally light a candle and pray within
a fairly close proximity of it, but I don't think that counts as idolatry.

Pax et bonum,
Richard

PS  No, I am not Roman Catholic.

    Re: .13
    
    I quess that in my heart, I felt the same as you with regards to the
    larger context of the Great Spirit and the Earth. 
    
    I did support my wife....lots of work to pull it off!
    
    Its an interesting subject to discuss. Being part Indian myself (just
    alittle)...makes it even more interesting!
    
    Marc H.

    Marc,
    
    My roots go back into the Blackfoot tribe of the mid 1800's myself. 
    :-)  I think it's very healthy to worship together on occasion with 
    another culture.  If people endeavor to come together and unite their 
    hearts in a ceremony of praise and thanksgiving, particularly if it's 
    a stretch for many, I feel God is especially glad.
    
    Karen
    
    P.S.  Marc, if you and your wife do this again, I'd be very interested
    in attending, as I live close to Grafton.  This would give me a chance
    to meet you and your wife and participate in the ceremony as well. :-)

    RE: .16
    O.K. Karen, I think that this will turn into an annual event. At least
    that is what my wife wants to happen. This year, besides the Girl/Boy
    Scouts in the council area, we had some local officials and one state
    rep.
    
    I'll post details for next year when I find them out.
    
    Marc H.

    My son will be going to India in August for a college semester there.
    I picked up one of the books he is reading in preparation for that
    experience and read something to this effect:
    
    Remember that idols are only called that by those outside of the
    religion.  They are not idols to those within the religion.
    
    That gave me something to think about.
    
    Nancy Smith

    Idolatry is the worship of someone or something as God as though it
    were God.
    
    When Aaron created the Golden Calf he knew it was not the all-powerful
    unseen God who led the Hebrew slaves from Egypt.  Nevertheless the
    worship of this calf as God started.
    
    The extreme position of this is the iconclasts who destroyed any image
    of the Lord.  The ultimate expression of this would be to burn the Holy
    Scriptures, the crosses and cruifixes, the art depicting the life of
    Christ, and all churches as being idols, even the tablets on which the
    commandments are written.
    
    The real idolatry of the 20th century is replacement of God as the
    focus of worship with money, fame, and pleasure.