Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

	I can sympathize with you and the situation.  I have no resolution
to offer other than prayer and urging the decision makers in this matter
to focus on submission to the Will of God.

	The Gospel of John indicates that Christ is the bread of life;
the Nourisher and Sustainer of life; the One who becomes one with us as
surely and thoroughly as the food we consume.

Peace,
Richard

	There are churches that use a helper who holds a plate under the host
	as it's being placed in the communicants mouth. This is to catch 
	crumbs. A good sized plate should handle most crumbs. Especially
	if covered with a cloth to prevent bouncing.

			Alfred

     Why can't your bakers bake wafers?  There must be more than  a  couple
     of  ways to make them and I'm sure they could come up with a variation
     that would satisfy their creative inclinations.   Just  a  suggestion.
     Good luck!

     Think "Peace",

     Alvin

	Thanks to all who replied.


	re .3	I think we used bread because of the symbolism of the "one loaf"
		but we're back to wafers (fish food!) for the time being. I
		don't know how the bread baker feels about this, but I think
		I've done all I can to resolve.

	Joan

I imagine that the Episcopal Church would have a regulation against leavened
bread, but I'm not sure.  Unleavened homemade bread is a lot less crumbly,
anyway. Maybe try making it without yeast (like the Jews did in Exodus!)

Eric

     Considering the Last Supper, which any communion service hearkens back
     to,  was  Seder,  i.e.,  the Passover meal, Jesus would most certainly
     have used unleaved bread, matso today, when he "broke  the  bread  and
     gave  it  to  his  disciples...".  Using bread as a symbol for life is
     very common but it's  made  much  deeper  and  richer  by  adding  the
     symbolism  associated with Pesach (the escape from slavery).  In light
     of this, I find it hard to understand why any church would use  normal
     bread  for  communion,  although  I can understand the substitution of
     grape juice for wine.

     Peace,

     Alvin

    Reply to .6, Alvin
    
    > I find it hard to understand why any church would use normal bread
    > for communion
    
    Define "normal bread."  If you mean "leavened" then I agree to an
    extent.  But remember, that the commercial matzos used by Jews today is
    a relatively modern invention.  I don't think the Jews in Jesus's time
    used commercal matzos ;-).  It was enough to be unleavened.
    
    However there are churches that use expressly leavened bread: The
    Eastern Christian churches (Orthodox, Byzantine Catholic, etc.) use it
    because they believe that the bread which has risen represents the
    Risen Christ and the Resurrection.  They see it as a symbol of life and
    a completion of the Jewish passover.  The West, however, sees leaven as
    a sign of sin and believes that according to Jewish custom it should
    remain unleavened.  Both are acceptable within their respective
    churches (but not in others).
    
    Eric
    

     Eric:

     RE: .7

>    > I find it hard to understand why any church would use normal bread
>    > for communion
>    
>    Define "normal bread."  .........................................

     Yes, by "normal" I meant "leavened".  Sorry, I  forgot  how  ambiguous
     "normal"  is when you're addressing a world community.  :^(  Thanx for
     the nudge.

     And, wow, what a great REPLY.  I didn't know all that stuff.  Thanx!

     Think "Peace",

     Alvin

    Of course if the church were located as a hut in the South Pacific
    Islands, the people may join in the custom of using coconut meat and
    coconut milk as the communion meal.  It, for them, is the stuff 
    sustaining life as bread and wine were for Jesus in his environment.
    
    Is it the materials that are important or the message?
    
    Stretching it a bit further, I have been supportive of a youth group
    that wished to celebrate Holy Communion using popcorn and coke - and
    this at the altar.  The youth group was making a theological faith
    statement as they were in the process of an Easter Vigil where they
    stayed through the night at church until the Sunrise service was about
    to begin.  They took their faith very seriously as they waited for the
    Christ.  The new Communion food represented them as they gathered 
    together, just as the food of Jesus' time was the common food of his
    gathering.
    
    I was touched by their sincerity and love for God and shall always
    remember that very fine and dedicated group.  They taught me some
    things that evening that I shall always remember.  Thanks be to God!
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

Coke and popcorn? And I thought "Spirit of Vatican II" excesses such as beer
and pizza were bad.

As Alvin pointed out, Communion comes from the PASSOVER SEDER celebration. For
some 2000 years or more, the Jews celebrated it with unleavened bread and wine.
The Last Supper was a Passover Seder and it can be shown to be such.  Each part
of the Last Supper can be identified as a part in the ritual of the Passover
Seer.  Jesus used bread and wine not because they were common food, but because
they had important ritual signficance: the unleavened bread reminded them of
the Exodus, where they had to flee before the bread rose, and the wine comes
from the four Cups of Blessing in the Seder Meal (actually the Christian
Communion comes from the one Cup of Redemption). 

Hence to use popcorn and coke TOTALLY DESTROYS the symbolism.  Obviously the
pastor of the church you mentioned totally misunderstood the symbolism behind
Holy Communion. Furthermore, we add the Christian symbolism of being united in
one loaf of bread (somewhere Paul talks about this).  When people join for
fellowship, they "break bread" -- which literally happens at least in our
liturgy (i.e. the communion bread is broken). Using popcorn also destroys this 
symbolism.  The wine is the fruit of the vine -- Jesus is the True Vine, from 
whom we drink.  And wine has always played an important symbolic role in God's 
plan.  There is no redeeming value to using Coke and again the beautiful 
symbolism is utterly destroyed and replaced with the spiritually meaningless
ritual of going to the movie theater.

Finally, Scripture tells us that the Christians used bread and wine. Why should
we change that? 

Eric

Alvin,

When you said "normal" bread, I thought you meant in opposition to homemade
bread -- as if to say that homemade bread was wrong. I wanted to point out that
as long as it is the right kind and people do not go too far and destroy the 
symbolism (e.g. pizza) then it's OK.  But I see that wasn't your concern!

I'm from the US so I don't consider unleavened bread normal, anyway (commercial
bread is!)

Glad you like the informative stuff I posted.  Actually I have heard cases of
Eastern rite churches using English muffins in a pinch ... but at least it's
bread!

Oh, you might also be interested in knowing that the Eastern Rite churches mix
the bread with the wine.  The bread is cut into small cubes and place in the
wine, and communion is administered with a small spoon to the mouth of the
recipient (who goes up to the celebrant, opens his mouth and tilts his head
back -- very strange, I tried it once!) People look like little baby robins
screaming for food from their mother ... kinda pastoral! Anyway this works
because they use leavened bread which absorbs the wine. Unleavened bread would
just make a mess.

Eric

Just a tidbit...

Early church liturgies (first coupla centuries A.C.E.) used not only bread and 
wine, but olives and cheese as well.  

I have had communion in several "unorthodox" situations, involving everything 
from cafeteria fare to the products available in vending machines.  All I can 
say was that it was appropriate, even necessary, at the time.

Peace,

Jim

   Jim,

   Funny that you point out the fundemental commerce products of the time.

   wheat (for bread)
   cheese
   Olives (oil)
   wine

   I remember the teachings as a kid that bread was of the body, cheese 
   was the product of the milk of kindness, wine was blood, and oil the
   spirit.  They are staples/symbols of life as many cultures (Christian
   and Non-Christian).

   Interesting to remember that.

   Allison

> Early church liturgies (first coupla centuries A.C.E.) used not only bread and 
> wine, but olives and cheese as well.  

Do you have references? I have read several writings of early church fathers on 
the Eucharist and have always seen them referring exclusively to bread and wine.
For example, Justin Martyr, who wrote in the first half of the second century:

 On the  day  called  after  the  sun  there is a meeting for which all those
 dwelling  in the cities or in the countryside come together. . . . . . . . .
 Then we  all  stand  up  together  and  lift  up  our prayers and, as I said
 previously,  when  we  have  finished our prayer, bread is brought forth and
 wine and water.  The one who is presiding offers up prayers and thanksgiving
 according  to  his  ability and the people acclaim their assent with "Amen".
 There  is  the  distribution of and participation on the part of each one in
 the  gifts for which thanks has been offered, and they are sent to those who
 are not present through the deacons. . . For we do  not  take these things 
 as ordinary bread or ordinary drink. (First Apology)

He seems to write as if there was no question or variance in the elements of
communion.

I can quote many, many more references to bread and wine, including an explan-
ation of why wine is necessary and simple water will not do. No references I
have found on the Eucharist refer to anything other than bread and wine, though
I am not denying that it may be true.  But I would like to know where you got
your information so that I may read for myself.

Eric

Transconsubstantiation.  Big word, eh?  How seriously you take this word,
however, may determine the degree of your insistence of precision elements
in the celebration of Holy Communion.

It is my personal opinion that it is perfectly acceptable to allow the birds
to share in the leftover bread; indeed, that it is even a Holy thing.

What do you suppose became of the leftover morsels of bread from the Last
Supper?

Peace,
Richard

re: Note 415.14 by Eric 

Hi Eric,

> Do you have references? 

Not on me, but my information comes from course material from the Education 
For Ministry program sponsored by the University of the South.  It includes
translations of several early church liturgies.

I'll bring them in and enter what I can.  (It is copyrighted material so I 
can't make extensive extractions.)

By the way, I think it's worth mentioning that the cheese and olives were not 
considered to be at quite the same level as bread and wine, as I recall, but 
they were considered a part of the Eucharistic feast.

Allison, thanks, I vaguely remember that the four represented the major staple 
items.  I think it adds an interesting emphasis to Jesus' admonition to 
"whenever you do this, do it in rememberance of me".  *Everything* you eat and 
drink to live is a gift of God, be constantly thankful.

Peace,

Jim

p.s.  Education For Ministry (EFM for short) is a 4 year seminary level course 
of study designed by the University of the South (I never heard of them before 
EFM .-) taught in private homes through a qualified mentor with small groups
(6-12) of students.  The purpose of EFM is to prepare people for lay ministry
in all aspects of their lives.  I completed the first year, but alas, have 
been unable to schedule further study so far.

    
RE: .15
    
>> Transconsubstantiation.  Big word, eh?  
    
    I haven't been following this string, but this word caught my eye.
    I'm familiar with "transubstatiation" (the bread and wine change into
    the literal body and blood) and "consubstantiation" (the body and blood
    coexist along *with* the bread and wine) but I don't recall *this* one!
    
    Explain please (or point me to an earlier note that defines)?

Nancy,

	You know, I was wondering whether I'd used too many syllables
when I wrote .15! 8-}

	According to your definitions, I meant transsubstantiation.

Thank you!

Richard

re:   olives & cheese   

From        _Seven Pre-Reformation Eucharistic Liturgies:
        Historic Rites Arranged For Contemporary Celebration_

by Marion J. Hatchett

�1973 The University of the South, Sewanee, Tennessee  USA

(Rev. Hatchett, Th.D. is assistant professor of 
liturgics and music in The School of Theology)

  From a Eucharistic Rite of the Second or Third Centuries:

  Blessing of Cheese and Olives:

  Sanctify this milk which has solidified, and solidify us in your love, and 
  let not your sweetness depart from this fruit of the olive tree, which is a 
  type of your mercy which you caused to flow from the Tree for life to those 
  who hope in you.  Glory to you, Father and Son with the Holy Spirit in the 
  holy church both now and always and world without end.  Amen.

                             +-=-+

Before this prayer is the blessing of the bread and wine.  Immediately 
afterwards is the breaking of the bread and the distribution.  This prayer is 
presented within brackets [], so I'd surmise that it is an optional prayer.
A note indicates that the source of the prayer is Apostolic Tradition.

I'd say that cheese and olives were not considererd to be on the same level as 
bread and wine in the celebration, but they were considered.  Another 
interesting difference between what many churches do in this day and age and 
the early churches is that today it is very easy, and probably far more 
convenient to obtain the host and the wine through liturgical supply houses, 
and the congregation makes soley a monetary offering, whereas even not too 
long ago, the elements *were* the offering of the congregation.  "Of thine own 
have we given thee."  (Not that money is bad, it's a convenient means of value 
exchange.)

Which nicely gets us back to Joan's basenote.  Alas I don't have a recipe, but 
I think it is wonderful that there are people desiring to make the effort of 
baking bread and such as an offering.  (Any home wine brewers out there?)

Also, after the congregation received the the Sacrament, the deacons would 
leave to take the Elements to those not present.  After the departure of the 
deacons, the members of the congregation either left, broke into informal 
conversation (modern day's "coffee hour" .-) or had a meal together.  (A meal 
often of bread, wine, cheese and olives...)

In some localities members of the congregation would take consecrated Elements 
home to receive privately during the week as a reminder and foretaste of the 
weekly Eucharist.

Peace,

Jim

Re: Cheese and Olives

(Boy, you know talking about that makes me hungry!)

Oh, I think I see what you're saying.  They were part of the liturgy, but not
necessarily the elements of consecration.

Actually it appears in the New Testament that the Eucharistic celebration was 
sometimes celebrated as a FEAST (the Agape, or love feast).  They had lots of
food then.

>  Blessing of Cheese and Olives:

>  Sanctify this milk which has solidified, and solidify us in your love, and 
>  let not your sweetness depart from this fruit of the olive tree, which is a 
>  type of your mercy which you caused to flow from the Tree for life to those 
>  who hope in you.  Glory to you, Father and Son with the Holy Spirit in the 
>  holy church both now and always and world without end.  Amen.

The fact that the cheese and olives were "blessed" and the milk "sanctif[i]"ed
indicates to me that they were _not_ used as Eucharistic elements.  The
language of the prayer over the Eucharistic elements refers to them as an
offering and sacrifice, and from the early liturgies even uses the so-called
words of institution, the words Jesus used: "This is my body, which will be
given up for you" ... "This is my blood, the blood of the new covenant ... do
this in memory of me." The lack of references to the Body and Blood and other
eucharistic imagery (present even in the 1st century Didache) indicates that
the olives and cheese and milk were not considered Eucharistic elements which
actually became the Body and Blood of Christ.  So in a way they were communion,
but they were "ordinary food and drink", not the Body and Blood.  (As you 
mentioned, bread and wine were also given.) 

Then again I can see how people who do not believe in the Real Presence would
not make a clear distinction between the Eucharistic elements and a communal
meal. I would have no problem adding a communal meal aspect, in fact I would
like a return to the Agape feast.  But the elements of consecration, which for
us become the body and blood of Christ (in a spiritual way, not a material way,
but still the body and blood of Christ), for me must be bread and wine.

Now I wonder if flavored bread would be acceptable, like raisin bread or
banana bread. . . . that would be an interesting thought.

Man am I hungry now ...

Eric