Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

     Tennyson summed up *my* feelings rather well..
    
     " Perplexed in faith,but pure in deeds,
        At last he beat his music out.
        There lives more faith in honest doubt,
       Believe me,than in half the creeds."
        
        from  In Memorium
    
     Our church (at least North Decatur Presbyterian :-) ENCOURAGES honest
    doubt that leads to soul searching,,,we and *I* feel that beliefs ar-
    rived at after doubt and questioning are more powerful than those that
    are learned by rote.
    
    Doug

    Pat, I agree with the UU sermon that you heard.  I have a problem with
    the notion of dogmatic certainty in religion.  I think it can lead to a
    kind of suppression of legitimate feelings and thoughts; there can be a
    fear that one might lose one's faith if one thinks too much or too
    hard.  I think that faith and doubt represent complementary aspects of
    the religious life, and that each have their value as components of a
    healthy religious outlook.

    -- Mike

Good topic, Pat,

In the Bible, faith is viewed very positively.  Doubt, where it is
contrasted with faith, is viewed negatively.  But does this mean
all doubt is bad?

What makes sense to me is that doubt can be very useful to build
faith.  It can be good to doubt that which is not knowable (since
the Bible indicates that it is a fool that claims to know the truth
that he does not know).

But is doubt ever better than faith in the truth when both are possible?  I see
nothing to recommend doubt over faith in the truth.  In fact, rejection
of the truth when it is possible to accept it is precisely what the
Bible defines as the worst of sins.  Many believe that this was the
"unforgivable sin" that the Pharisees committed - they refused to believe
the truth of Jesus despite the clear evidence.

Collis

    
    I think there's a difference between faith and belief.
    
    Faith is my commitment to God:
    	Forsaking
    	All
    	I
    	Take
    	Him (sorry, this came from pre-inclusive-language days)
    
    In other words, faith is a relationship.  Thus, doubt and faith can
    eaily (though not always painlessley) coexist.  I may doubt lots of
    things *about* God and *about* religion, but my faith is a *decision*
    (not a belief-system).
    
    

You know, the expression "doubting Thomas" was originally in reference to Jesus'
disciple, Thomas, who wanted to see the wounds on the risen Christ.

Were Thomas around today, he might be called "Thomas, the skeptic."  I don't
think he didn't want to believe.  He merely wanted confirmation.  I think
he didn't want to be fooled.

Interestingly, Jesus didn't chastize Thomas for wanting proof, even though
Jesus did indicate that there was a greater way.

Peace,
Richard

    Pat,
    
    Without doubt, faith would not exist.  Without doubt, faith can not
    deepen.  One sustains the other.  
    
    Karen

Karen
        
>    Without doubt, faith would not exist.  Without doubt, faith can not
>    deepen.  One sustains the other.  
    
     IMHO, faith is a gift from God in which he reveals himself to us.
     The people to whom Christ has appeared  over the centuries experience
     a level of faith which most of us will not know and  which doubt played 
     no part. Jesus reveals himself to us, not because of doubt, but because we
     place our trust in Him.

    Peace
    Jim

    re .7
    
    I agree that faith may be a gift from God, the gift of Grace.  Perhaps
    the reason why people over the centuries don't have faith is that
    another gift from God, called freedom, has been used to not accept the
    gift of faith.
    
    If you're suggesting that God predetermines who shall have faith and
    who shall not, perhaps even long before a person is born, that kind of
    God is different from the God I know that loves you and me.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

    RE:8
    Ron,
         faith is a gift from God for everyone who accepts it. However,
    there are those who God chooses to reveal Himself to in a way that
    brings them to a different level of faith than the rest of us. It
    would seem unfair when you first look at it, but when you consider
    that those  with such levels of faith have more to account for, it
    makes their road to salvation more difficult.

    Look at St. Paul. Christ revealed himself in an apparition. Paul
    received the gift of faith more so than others, but Paul also was given
    responsibility that was not given to others. So essentially it balances
    out if you know what I mean ?

    If Christ appeared before you right now. Would your faith increase or 
    decrease ?

    The faith we have is the result of  revelation, by God to us. We
    ourselves cannot reveal God. Whether that revelation is through nature, 
    other people or apparitions, it is we who must open our eyes to see. 
    Even St. Paul could of dismissed what he saw by rationalizing that his 
    vision was nothing more than a  hallucination. In all it is a gift from God,
    because he is constantly revealing himself to those who choose to see 
    him.

    Ahemmm ! I don't mean to sound like I'm preaching here. It's just me,
    thinking out loud.

    Peace
    Jim

    Hi Jim .8,
    
    > The people to whom Chist has appeared over the centuries experience a
    > level of faith which most of us will not know and which doubt played no
    > part.
    
    I disagree.  To doubt is part of the human condition, imo.  I don't 
    think you can say with such conclusiveness that doubt played no part 
    in the faith development of those to whom Christ appeared to over 
    the centuries.  How can you say this with such surety?  
    
    Even Jesus upon the cross cried out "Father, why have you foresaken
    me?"  If this is not about doubt, even in Jesus Christ, I don't know 
    what is.  
    
    > Jesus reveals himself to us, not because of doubt, but because place
    > our trust in Him.
    
    Are you suggesting that we have to put our trust in Jesus first, as a
    prerequisite to Him revealing Himself to us?
    
    Thanks,
    Karen

    re .9
    
    Jim,
    
    When one refers to "levels" of faith, an interpretation might seem to
    indicate that one with one level is of greater "value" than one of
    another level.  For example, one might consider Paul's level of faith
    deeper and thus more important to God.
    
    If this is true, who is the person of deeper faith, the one who
    persecuted many Christians and later converted to Christianity or a
    person who donated his eyes so that others may see?
    
    Is the local pastor's faith, shown by the pastor's inclusive love for
    local gay community, deeper than that of one who is charged to give
    testimony to the Good News as evangelized to "all the nations?"
    
    Are the people whom Jesus refers to in Matt 25:31-43 (in the "anonymous
    Christ section) people of "faith" even though they have NOT claimed it
    or are not even aware of the possibility for that faith?
    
    Finally, is faith really a matter of works? 
    
    And so you ask how I would respond to the sudden arrival of Jesus. 
    First, who knows?  Most likely I would respond as I have to Moon, that
    is, I haven't responded.  Would I respond any differently than those
    outside the tomb or on the road to Emmaus?  Perhaps, you and I are
    already responding to the presence of Jesus, right here, right now.
    
    Is not Jesus of the same substance as Father, of the same substance as
    the Holy Spirit?  Is not the Holy Spirit the Power that moves within
    us?  Is this not faith?  Is one's faith Holier than another's?
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

    RE:10
    Karen,
    	perhaps we have a difference in understanding what doubt is.
    When I speak of doubt, I lean towards skepticism and distrust
    more than questioning. If your leaning towards questioning, than
    yes, I think that this can lead to belief in God, but faith will
    still have to come from him. I can question God's existence and find 
    answers that convince me he exist. But to trust in him, love him and 
    live my life according to his will, requires faith. 

    Peace
    Jim

    Greetings All;
    
    	Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word
    		      of God."
    
    	Is it possible that the "measure of faith" that is given to each
    person can increase?  As we seek God's face, and praise Him, and fellowship 
    with Him in prayer is it possible that our faith increases?
    
    Paul noted that we continually get faith (faith cometh) by hearing the
    word of God. If our local pastor is "hearing" from God and relating 
    His word to us could this increase our faith? 
    
    It is evident to me that faith is not static, but is dynamic, and there
    are things that we can do to increase it.  Most of all faith must be
    exercised:
     
    	     James 2 17 "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not
    		         accompanied by action , is dead." (niv)
      
    
    God through his Holy Spirit can speak to "His Children" there by giving
    us the opportunity to act upon His word and build our faith.
    
    			Love, Joy and Peace
    
    				Warren Johnson                                 
                               
    P. S. Why should you act upon your doubts?
    

    
    And then there's Romans 14:22,23 NAS
    
    "The faith which you have, have as your own conviction toward God.
    Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.  But he
    who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from
    faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin."
    
    So when it comes to behavior, do everything by faith.  How I apply this
    is that when I make a choice in doing this or that, my faith has a
    major part in the decision.  I need to believe in God, and believe He
    cares about me, and that He agrees that what I'm doing is at a minimum
    okay with Him.
    
    Now there are times when I live by doubt.  Those are the times I
    confess to Him as my sin.
    
    I also think it's fine to ask God for wisdom.  This could be looked
    at as doubting cause I'm questioning, but not really, I'm just believing 
    that He has all the answers.  And that's faith.
    
    Just another perspective.
    Tom Lizotte
    
    

    
    Faith is the foot on which we find great treasure; the hand with which
    we grasp happiness.
    
    
    
    
                                  Ray

what if "doubt" and "faith" were two very essential and complementary 
ingredients making up the human being.

what would you say to the hypothesis that in every human being there are always

	n %  of doubt   and   (100-n) %  of faith


so that always, a person is    100%  =  % of doubt + % of faith


at the extremes, a person with 100% of faith then has 0% of doubt and 
a person with 100% of doubt has 0% of faith. in the middle a person of 
50% doubt has 50% faith. 

would this then make persons which primarily consist of just one ingredient 
(ie. either just faith or just doubt) biased or one-sided and would this make 
a person with a roughly equal amount of either ingredient into a balanced 
individual?



andreas.