Conference 7.286::golf

I also tested new drivers this weekend, namely the Bertha and the new Midsize
from Taylor Made.   Once again I was unexcited by the Callaway, but a very 
different story with the Taylor.  With the graphite shafted version I was only 
hitting 5-10 yards further than with my Founder's driver with a perfect hit.
However, the club was unbelievably forgiving for off-center hits.  I hit balls
out on the toe of the club that went about 250 yards and dead straight. It 
almost seems unfair to the people who still play with "regular" clubs. 
I haven't bought one yet, but I think its on the way....
 
 -Evan

    I was looking to purchase the Yonex ADX 300, could someone tell me the
    difference between ADX 300 and 200. The one I look at was S shaft 44"
    in length. 
    
    Mark

    The ADX 200 is 45" in length. It also has Boron in the shaft - which is
    stated on the nomenclature appearing on the shaft. Don't know much more
    about the specs.
    
    __Jack

    Note :1
    
    The Wilson Whale was it the metal head or the laminate head, i have
    used a Taylormade for 7 yrs starting with the metal shaft and moving on
    to the Flextwist Graphite shaft.
    Its a great club but i could not resist a look at the Wilson Whale
    metal wood, can anyone give me more details on the club.
    
    I keep getting good reports about Callaways and Berthas but dont
    like the look of em.
    
    Joe

    The Whale had a big metal head.
    
    __Jack

I love using my Bertha driver.. Even with my mis-hits they are going 260+.

This past weekend, I purchased the Bertha 5-Wood and tested
the Bertha Heaven wood too.. Loved the Heaven wood, but
really needed the 5-wood badly.

						- Steve

    I tested the Taylor Midsize 9.5 Deg with the Flexwist shaft (S). The 
    head felt solid but the shaft is another story. Flextwist shaft has a 
    low bend point which produced balloon type shots. The stiff shaft 
    didn't seem to stiff, shots started left and stayed left.
    
    Next test drive, Founders, Fresh Metal Plus (  FMP ).
    
    In search of...
    Mark. 

    A low bend point on a shaft usually causes the ball flight to be lower
    and is for lower handicap players.  A shaft that is too stiff for your
    swing will ALWAYS cause pulls.
    
    Mike
    

    re: .8
    
    Mike:
    
�                                        A shaft that is too stiff for your
�    swing will ALWAYS cause pulls.
    
    Can you explain why?  I was always under the impression that is was the
    opposite (ie. too stiff a shaft results in PUSHes).
    
    The explaination I was given is that if the shaft is too stiff, then
    you can't swing it hard enough to get the head to come back to square
    at impact, and you will always hit the ball with an open face.  Whereas
    using a shaft that is too soft will result in the head whipping past
    square, generating a PULL.
    
    
    Maury...

    If a shaft is too stiff for your swing speed it flexes too quickly and
    the head goes past the grip creating a pull.  If a shaft is too
    flexible for your swing speed the head never catches up with you,
    leaving the face open at impact and therefore a push/fade.
    
    Mike
    

    RE .8
    Mike,
    
    I hate to differ, but a lower bend point equals a high trajectory and a
    high bend point equals a lower trajectory. Look at note 481 this
    subject is discussed in detail.
    
    As for the stiffness of the shaft this one felt like spaghetti. Every
    shot went left. 
     
    

    re .10
    
    Mike,
    
    I can only go by my experiences, I use a 7 deg driver with a HM-40 firm
    shaft and when I take my normal swing I usually have a slight draw or
    it goes straight if I swing easy or try to guide my swing the ball goes
    right.
    
    Mark 

    re:11
    
    You might be right.  I went to Golfsmiths clubmaking school about 5
    years ago, but you know how the memory gets with age.  I will pull out
    the manual on shafts tonight.  One of the things I do remember is the
    discussion on standards for shafts. Currently there isn't any. What
    might be stiff for one manufacturer is regular for another and the high
    or low bend points between manufacturers might be inches apart.  So you
    have to go by feel and how the shaft reacts to you.  I'll let you know
    tomorrow what the manual says.
    
    RE: 12
    
    My putter has 7 degrees loft!!!
    
    Mike
    

    I stand humbly corrected.  Right from the manual: "Almost all shafts
    have their bend point (also known as flex point) a little less than
    halfway up the shaft from the tip end.  The total difference between
    the location of the average "high bend point" and the average "low bend
    point" is, based on manufacturers' specifications, only about 1 to 1
    1/2 inches.  In general, a golfer desiring higher shot elevation should
    be fitted for a lower bend point, while the golfer who consistently
    hits the ball too high might find a high bend point more controllable."
    
    Flex:
    
    Manufacturers generally encourage golfers to select shaft flex based on
    swing speed.  Below is a chart based on a player's swing speed or a
    roughly corresponding formula based on which club used to reach the
    green from 150 yards out.
    
    SHAFT FLEX		SWING SPEED		CLUB FROM 150 YARDS
    
    Extra-Stiff	    	105-plus		8 or 9 iron
    Stiff		95-105			6 or 7 iron
    Regular		85-95			5 or 6 iron
    A-Flex(Seniors)	75-85			4 iron
    Ladies'		Less than 75		3 iron or lofted wood..
    
    Torque:  A shaft's torque rating is based on the number of degrees the
    shaft tip rotates about its axis when a given weight or force is
    applied downward and tangentially.  Torque refers to the clubhead's
    ability to twist during the swing. Steel shafts are not usually rated
    for torque but should usually allow twisting of no more than 2 1/2
    degrees.  Graphite shaft torque ratings run from 1.5 to 7 degrees or
    more.  The lower the torque the stronger the flex will feel.  Only the
    strongest hitters should use stiff graphite shafts with low torque.
    
    Major shaft advice: Graphite for distance/Steel for accuracy.	
    
	Thanks for pointing out my mistake, I needed to go back and look 
    	at this.
    
    Mike 
        

    re: .10
    
    actually isn't it just the opposite????
    
    

    Try swinging a weight on a string fast.  We could probably agree that
    that is not a stiff shaft.  See where the head ends up.  

>    If a shaft is too stiff for your swing speed it flexes too quickly and
>    the head goes past the grip creating a pull.  If a shaft is too
>    flexible for your swing speed the head never catches up with you,
>    leaving the face open at impact and therefore a push/fade.
    


>    Try swinging a weight on a string fast.  We could probably agree that
>    that is not a stiff shaft.  See where the head ends up.  
 

	The key in both these statements is "swing speed"......

	With a weight on a string you cannot possibly "swing fast" 
to square the clubhead....


as you pointed out:
-------------------
    
    Manufacturers generally encourage golfers to select shaft flex based on
    SWING SPEED.
    

    SHAFT FLEX		SWING SPEED		CLUB FROM 150 YARDS
    
    Extra-Stiff	    	105-plus		8 or 9 iron
    Stiff		95-105			6 or 7 iron
    Regular		85-95			5 or 6 iron
    A-Flex(Seniors)	75-85			4 iron
    Ladies'		Less than 75		3 iron or lofted wood..
    


	The golfer using a stiff shaft who swings in the 85-95 speed range
will have the clubhead laging thus a push.....TOO STIFF A SHAFT FOR SWING SPEED

	The golfer using a regular shaft who swings in the 105-plus range
will have the clubhead closing too soon thus a pull....TOO FLEXABLE A SHAFT FOR
SWING SPEED

SWING SPEED = the speed at which you can swing the club that consistantly
	      squares the clubhead to the ball while maintaining your
	      balance.....


Where most golfers might fit in this chart, so check your equipment
and see if your using the right clubs for your SWING SPEED...

    
    SHAFT FLEX		SWING SPEED		CLUB FROM 150 YARDS


Greg Norman,John Daley,Davis Love II
------------------------------------
    Extra-Stiff	    	105-plus		8 or 9 iron


most professionals, good amatures, some senior / women professionals
--------------------------------------------------------------------
    Stiff		95-105			6 or 7 iron

senior/women professionals and most amature golfers
---------------------------------------------------
    Regular		85-95			5 or 6 iron

the rest
--------
    A-Flex(Seniors)	75-85			4 iron
    Ladies'		Less than 75		3 iron or lofted wood..
    


	It's not how fast you can swing the club but how fast you can
swing the club and still maintain control...

    
    Does anybody use the 'Thunder Heat' mentioned in .0 ?
    A guy in my foursome has one and hits it great! I used
    it a couple of times this weekend, and it sure did feel good.
    It (his anyway) is shorter than most drivers I have, or seen.
    Is this a 'feature' of the Heat? It is almost the same length as
    a 3-wood, certainly not as long as my driver, or the other drivers
    in my group. They don't give these things away ($225 in the clubhouse)
    so I don't think I'll run right out and get one, but sure would like
    too. My tee-game has *stunk* lately, and my woods (metal) are old
    and I'm convinced that they just are not doing the job for me. They
    have very small heads, (early version of Dunlop re-max), and are not
    even made any more.
    
    Anyway... appreciate any more information on new technology drivers
    out there! Anyone buy a 'Heat' and NOT like it?
    
    		thanks,
    
    		Smitty

    Geeze.. No responses to -1.
    
    Guess the 'Thunder Heat' is not quite as popular as my buddy
    says they are. I did go to another pro-shop/min-store and they
    have *everything* ... and good prices. The 'Heat' was $185 there,
    and they have Yonex, Bertha, you name it. The Yonex shafts are
    looooong! I know I could not control um. That's why I am still
    set on the Heat. They seem to line up real well for me, and the
    shaft, for some reason seems like I have a 3 wood in my hands.
    
    The Heat has a graphite face plate. I haven't seen it on any other
    club. The pro couldn't really say if this was a + or a -.
    
    	Smitty

    IMO, the "Heat" goes pretty straight, but doesn't hit it as far as a
    Yonex, Bertha or Cleveland.
    
    __Jack

    I just got a Tommy Armour 845 Great Scot Driver with 8 degree loft and
    stiff shaft.  I'm not real confident with it yet, but when I hit it
    well I seem to get 30 to 40 yards more than my old persimmon driver.
    
    Mike
    

    As I  mentioned elsewhere, I am window-shopping for a new driver, and
    so far I  have  narrowed down, based on some reading and publicity to
    either a "Big Bertha" or a Midsize Taylor-Made System 2.
    
    As we lefties know, not  too  many  shops  have demo clubs to try, so
    many times we have to go by word-of-mouth.
    
    Many have praised the  "BB",  but I haven't read anything here on the
    new Taylor-Made's. Any comments on it??
    
    Tavo

>    Many have praised the  "BB",  but I haven't read anything here on the
>    new Taylor-Made's. Any comments on it??

Tavo, I've got a Mid Size & love it...but I'm not telling anyone about it 
because I'm hitting my drives farther & straighter than ever...I'm tired that
everyone in my foursome then buys the same technology & I'm back to having to
compete without a competitive advantage.

Larry

    I have found nothing in 30 years that is easier to hit than the Big
    Bertha!!!  Worth every penny!
    
    Mike
    

    If the Taylor mid-size is the one with the "flex-twist" shaft, I've hit
    it. Didn't like the shaft that much, but it moves the ball o.k. Kind of
    "middle of the road" to me, although Taylor is admittedly quality
    stuff.
    
    If you try a BB, make sure you get the right shaft. I normally use
    stiffs, so I tried the BB "firm" (their stiff shaft). Couldn't control it
    very well, but their "strong" (stiffer) shaft felt very good. Once
    again, don't miss the Cleveland boron/graphite number - it's a winner!
    
    __Jack 

    If I  have  read  this  series of replies before entering my, I would
    have found a couple that actually are on the T-M Midsize.
    
    Tally so far:
    
    2 really love it
    1 "Middle of the road"
    1 "when it goes left, it stays left"
    

    
    	In the early spring I order from Golfworks their Big Bertha copy
    	with a graphite insert.  About a month ago I compared it to a
    	Big Bertha with a steel shaft.  Found the Golfworks club going
    	about 10-15 yards further for me than the Big Bertha.  I do not
    	know what flex/shaft was in the Bertha as the label was off.
        The Golfworks club was quieter on the hit.
    
    	I did swing the Thunder Heat in an indoor net this past winter.
    	My recollection was that it was quick and quiet feeling much like
    	the Golfworks club.  
    
    	I have a friend who demoed the Thunder Heat and the MacGregor MAD
    	MAC and ended up with the MAD MAC as he liked that shaft better.
        I believe Nevada Bob's carries both the MacGregor MAD MAC and the
    	Spalding ThunderHeat.
    
    	Have fun trying your options.
    	Walt
    	
    
    
    
    	much feel as the Big Bertha hits into the same net.  

    I bought a thunder heat and have been using it for about 6 weeks now.
    
    It has given me about another 15-20 yards without sacrificing the
    accuracy that my titanium shafted metal head driver gave me.
    
    The graphite face mentioned in an earlier note is really an insert.
    The ball seems to jump off the face much quicker.
    
    My driver has a graphite shaft, but some come with metal.
    
    charlie

    I finally bought a Thunder Heat a couple of weeks ago. I got stiff
    shaft, graphite. I also got the 10.5 degree loft (it also comes
    in 9.5). I bought a demo club and got a great deal on it (well, I
    got $50.00 off).You could hardly tell it had been hit.
    
    So far, I'm hittin it a ton, and the best thing for me is it's
    going straight!
    
    		Smitty

    I'm in the process of trying out some drivers myself.  The choices I
    have from our Pro Shop (Support your local pro) are...
    
    Wilson Whale
    Wilson Mid-Size
    Titleist Mid-Size
    
    I really can't get comfortable with the Whale, but haven't hit it yet.
    Anybody have any experience with the 2 Mid-Size clubs?
    
    chuck
    

     Just my opinion, but I think The Whale feels awful. Hit it - hated
    it... If I was trying a mid-size, I'd try a Taylor - they have more
    experience. Actually, I'd try a Bertha too - lot's of people love 'em -
    and an Armour and a Founders Club. Think I'd skip the Wilson &
    Titleist, nobody seems to use 'em, so there must be a reason...
    
    __Jack

    After debating between  the  Taylor  Made  midsize  and  Big Bertha I
    bought a TM, mainly because the BB head looks too big for me.
    
    I don't regret buying  the  TM,  I  got  what I was looking for, more
    accuracy.
    
    Tavo

    Thanks for the advice.  I went and hit the Bertha as well as the Taylor
    Made yesterday.  I liked the TM better.  The Bertha I was hitting
    seemed too long.  I want to try the Yonex before I make up my mind.
    
    Chuck 

Any opinions on the Top Flite Super Heat 10.5 degree driver?
Experiences, list & street price, etc.?

Thanks,
Pete