Conference 7.286::golf

    
    Tim,
    
    The differences between the Edge and the 845 are 
    
    1. the Edge is forged (their main selling point). Most if not
       all of the Edge clones are cast however...
    2. the 845 other than having the perimeter weighting design also
       has heel and toe weighting, with more weight in the toe area
       on the longer irons. This is where people tend to make ball 
       contact on the longer irons, thus you better results.
    3. some people may not consider this a playability difference,
       but I do. The Edge has the chrome finish and the 845 has a 
       dull finish, this makes a difference to the eye of the player
       particularly if the sun is glaring off of the Edge...
    
    Also, the merits of clones have been dicussed in this notes file
    several times. I for one most definately feel that if you go to
    a competant club maker then the clones are every bit as good as
    the name brand and cost a LOT less....!!
    
    Regards
    Gene

    
    	Oh ya, I forgot to mention, the 845s have been the #1 selling
    	club for the last two seasons...

    There aren't alot of similarities between 845's and Edge irons.
    The Edge is more sole weighted for greater dynamic loft.  The Edge
    clones are a little more comarable to the 845's only because they
    are a cast club.  I view the 845 as more of a players club because 
    it is thinner, and kind of a cross between a blade and a perimiter
    weighted club.  The Edge is primarily a game improvement club.  The
    gimmick is the forged feature with the Edge.  A clone of the Edge is
    just another perimiter weighted cast club, nothing special.
    
    Rick

    Oh yea... I've hit both.  I tend to hook the Edge because of the 
    toe/sole weight.  The 845 playes alot like a Titleist DTR, so I
    hit it pretty well.  The feel you get with a real Edge is nice,
    forged does that for you.  Ram and Merit both have forged game-
    improvement irons on the market.  Hit those also before you decide.
    I really liked the Ram Laser FX better than the Edge.
    
    Rick

     The biggest difference to me is the Hogan "Apex" shaft, which is the
    best feeling lightweight shaft I've hit by far. I've owned or own
    Edge's, Radials, Directors, Apex's, Producers and Medallions, so I'm
    familiar with the product...
    
    --Jack 

    for the price Hogan still makes the best club on the market...

    
    Hi,
    
    	MY wife Eunhwa has the 845's and I bought the Hogan Edge's...
    
    	I never hit a forged iron before, although I did use a perimeter
    	weighted iron (wilson 1200 GE's). The difference I noticed with
    	the Edge's was they definitely put more spin on the ball, which
    	made shots fly higher. They are more sensitive to off center hits,
    	and loose distance... but when you hit the ball sweet the feeling
    	is awesome ! The way the ball sores is great, it allows me to
    	hit a long iron and still hold the green. It may be just that
    	the hogans are forged, and have a softer metal... because
    	I haven't hit any other forged clubs I'm not sure if it's the
    	edges specifically. The flange on the bottom of the club is
    	smaller, which allows more playability (drawing,fading)... but
    	due to this, I found it more difficult to hit. I use to bounce
    	the larger flanged wilsons off the fairway without much effort,
    	like hitting a punch shot. But with the edges, the club will
    	cut into the fairway and chunk the shot... it took a little
    	getting used to. I had to make more of a sweeping swing, and
    	eliminate the lunging punchdown type swing.
    	 I'd say the overall best thing about the edges is the spin
    	they put on shots... allowing for better scoring. The bad part
    	is I tend to go for the pin more often than I should :) !!
    
    		Eunhwa just started hitting the 845's so we'll have to 
    	wait till next season to get some feedback...  unless we go to
    	Myrtle Beach ??????? :)
    
    	Walta
    
    

    I've tried both and I must admit the Edge does give you good feel. But
    I bought 845's because I just like the way it sets when you address the
    ball and gave me better performance overall.
    
    BTW, 845's have a stronger loft and with low center of gravity, you get
    longer distance and still get high trajectory. (that's why you'll see
    a loft angle on the club face instead of a number)
    
    P.S. 845 sand wedge has a normal loft, so going from PW to SW there's 
    a 2 club difference. they have a third wedge (W3) that goes between these
    two but many salesperson or pros forget to tell you that.
    
    Regards

     Walta, the increased spin/height you're seeing with the Edge is from
    square grooves and a higher kick point in the shaft. I don't believe
    the 845's are "stronger," simply because the Edge (like Pings) are
    already manufactured 1/2" longer and with stronger than normal lofts to
    give more distance. This info. was given me by Hogan's Sales Mgr. in
    Fort Worth.
     Sure you'll lose a little distance on toe hits, but think about what a
    toe hit on a "tour blade" does...
    
    --Jack

    
    RE: .9
    
    Jack,
    
    Just one nit, a higher shaft kick point will yeild less height. A low
    kick point shaft will yeild more height...
    
    Regards
    Gene

     I don't know the physics, but I disagree. Nicklaus used to use higher
    kick point clubs, and he hit it real high. "Jet Steps" have high kick
    points and they produce higher shots. Actually, lots of things can
    produce higher shots in the mfg. of clubs. Perhaps some configurations
    with lower kick points do produce higher shots, but I submit that the
    converse may also be true.
    
    --Jack

    
    
    Sorry to disagree once again Jack, but low kick point shafts are
    the ones that you want to use if you want more height on your shots.
    AND True Temper Jet Steps have a LOW kick point NOT a high kick
    point...!!! You are right that there are things the makeup of a club
    that will help determine the height of the shot like a low or very
    low center of gravity and obviously the loft of the club. BUT, if
    you take a given club head and put it on a low kick point shaft and
    on a high kick point shaft, then the shots hit with the head on the
    shaft with the LOW kick point will hit higher shots...
    
    Regards
    Gene

    Besides "kick points", I'm not sure about the Hogans, but the 845's have
    a progressive offset throughout the irons, (ie. 2 iron is noticably
    offset opposed to the wedge which is has a slight,if any offset.)  I've
    played with the 845's for a year now and really like them. (switched
    from Hogan Apex PC's).
    
    Scott
    

    I have to go along with Gene on this one also. My equipment catalog 
    list the Jet Step as a low kick-point shaft. As far as 845 vs. Edge,
    I have a set of 845 clones with D.G.s300 shafts (high kick-point) and
    a set of John Reily (pw cast heads) with Pro-fit shafts (mid kick
    point) with a soft tip and I hit the ball a lot higher with the
    Reilys. The 845's are very forgiving with good distance and accuracy
    from just about anywhere on the face, they also set up real nice.
      I have no experience with the Edge.
    
    Mad Hacker

    I must be playing the game with the wrong equipment then....
    
    If I want to hit a high shot I move the ball further forward in
    my stance and stay behind it longer...works 90% of the time reguardless
    of the kickpoint of the shaft on my clubs...???
    

    and by the way I use the same edges with the apex shafts that Jack
    talks about....but I suscribe to Nicklaus "method" in that I set the
    shape of the shot I want at address...it works with just about ANY
    type of golf equipment reguardless of the features of the equipment...!
    

    
    RE: last couple...
    
    Dick,
    
    Naturally the way you set up and your swing path, etc... will
    obviously determine how the ball flies... The point is that if
    you hit the same shot with a club that has a shaft with a high
    kick point and a club that has a shaft with a low kick point,
    then the shot hit with the low kick point shaft will go higher.
    
    Regards
    Gene

    re: .7
    
    As I recall didn't you "cut down" the Edges by 1/2 inch after you
    bought them???
    
    If you did you'll cause the ball to be hit even higher than normal
    I think...the stronger loft on these perimeter weighted clubs was
    for a reason and by cutting the clubs down by 1/2 inch you negate these
    reasons....
    
    If you wern't the one who cut them down then never mind...
    

    
    
    Low kickpoint shaft... flex near the clubhead... greater dynamic loft 
      (read higher trajectory)
    
    High kickpoint shaft... flex near the grip... lower trajectory
    
    Rick

    Re: .13 I'm not surprised. The Apex PC's were nearly impossible to hit.
    BTW, after thinking about it, Gene may be right about kick points. I'll
    talk to my pal at Hogan again.
    
    --Jack

    
>    If you did you'll cause the ball to be hit even higher than normal
>    I think...the stronger loft on these perimeter weighted clubs was
>    for a reason and by cutting the clubs down by 1/2 inch you negate these
>    reasons....
 
     Dick, 
    
     Can you explain this to me? 
    
     Thanks
     Gene    

    Reply .18
    
    	Gordon,
    
    
    	Yes I did cut the shafts 1/2 inch...
    
    	What does cutting the shaft 1/2 inch have anything to do with
    	the loft of a club? I hope you don't think a pitching wedge
    	hits the ball higher than a 3 iron because of the shaft length ???
    	:)
    
    	Walta
    

    
>    If you did you'll cause the ball to be hit even higher than normal
>    I think...the stronger loft on these perimeter weighted clubs was
>    for a reason and by cutting the clubs down by 1/2 inch you negate these
>    reasons....


	As I recall, Karsten Solheims(maker of Ping Golf Clubs) insperation 
for the Ping club came from the observation that a tennis racket did not twist
and turn alot and would keep a ball fairly straight even when hit off center.

	He first applied this theory to a putter and walla the Ping putter that
had perimeter weighting was born. It had the weight more around the outside
and caused less twisting and turning when struck on the toe or heel.

	He then proceeded to apply this same technique to a golf club but a
strange thing happened, as the weight was moved more around the outside of
the clubhead it causes a change in the center of gravity. The results were a
clubhead with a larger hitting area, more toe area, better balance and better
results on shots hit near the toe or heel. The problem was that with the change
in the center of gravity these new clubs hit the ball extremely higher than a
standard club thus causing a loss of distance, this was overcome by changing
the loft and making it stronger to compensate for the loss of distance and
extreme height. Now the new club would give approximatly the same trajectory
as a standard club. SO we have:

	Now if I take a "standard" 5 iron that has a loft of say 30 degrees
and a length of say 36 inches and I can carry a golf ball 165 yards, this
is the results of the speed of the clubhead [swing arc(length)] and the loft
of the clubhead.

	Now if I take a "perimeter weighted" 5 iron that has a loft of say 28
degrees and a length of say 36 inches and I can carry a golf ball 165 yards,
this is the results of the speed of the clubhead [swing arc(length)] and the
loft of the clubhead.

	Based on my understanding of what took place in the development of
the perimeter weighted clubs, and understanding that if I was to change either
of the variables of loft/length, and knowing that the Edge is a perimeter
weighted club I feel that a person changing the length of the club will
negate what was accomplished when the manufacture has to build a perimeter
weighted club with a stronger loft.....to wit


                       "these new clubs hit the ball extremely higher than a
standard club thus causing a loss of distance, this was overcome by changing
the loft and making it stronger to compensate for the loss of distance and
extreme height."

    re: .22
    Walta,
    
    	no I think it's a combination of loft and length...
    
    that's why to hit a knock down shot of 7 iron distance you
    can choke down on a 5 iron and get the same distance as a 7 iron
    but with different trajectory...

    
    RE: .23
    
    Dick,
    
    Very well put, except for one thing, the length of the shaft has
    nothing to do with how high the ball will fly. The length will
    however have an effect on the distance you get, but not do to
    hitting it higher. A longer shaft will yield more distance a
    shorter shaft will yield more accuracy (as has been mentioned
    in this notes file at least ONE other time...
    
    BTW, lower center of gravity = higher shots...
    
    Regards
    Gene

>                                       the length of the shaft has
>    nothing to do with how high the ball will fly. The length will
>    however have an effect on the distance you get, but not do to
>    hitting it higher.


	"The faster a golf ball spins the greater the lift. A ball with
greater lift has a higher trajectory, longer carry distance...."

						from the golf ball pamplet
						by titleist


	I maintain a longer shaft does contribute to higher clubhead
speed and thus higher spin rates which will give a higher trajectory
and the resulting longer carry distances.

Dick	

    Dick,
    
    What does faster club head speed have to do with higher spin rate...?
    I agree that the faster a ball spins the greater the loft, I don't
    agree that faster club head speed imparts any more "spin" on the 
    ball...
    
    Dimple patterns, grooves/smooth club face, wrist action - help
    determine the spin on the ball...
    
    
    	
    Perhaps we should do an experiment, hitting balls with a standard
    length 9 iron or wedge and another club with the same head but
    3 iron length shaft and see what happens...!!! ;-)
    
    Regards
    Gene (who_loves_these_discussions)

    
>    What does faster club head speed have to do with higher spin rate...?
>    I agree that the faster a ball spins the greater the loft, I don't
>    agree that faster club head speed imparts any more "spin" on the 
>    ball...
    
	I'm not exactly sure(physics) what it has to do with it but I am sure
it has a lot to do with it. Various test by different manufacturers 
over the years who were trying to show that their ball was "the longest
ball" have all used clubehead speed as one of the variables, in fact
one of the arguments that always happens is that manufacture A says
manufacture B's test was not accurate because the swing speeds used were
not the speeds of the average amature but were more like the swing speeds
generated by the pros.

	Other factors used in these test which also generate heated
discusions(sp?) are:

		what to measure: carry & roll or just carry

		number and loft of clubs used

		swing speed

		launch angle

		wind speed/direction

		temperature

		turf conditions

    I have to agree with Dick on faster swing speed helping with spin rate,
    If you hit down on the ball harder (faster) it will spin faster. Just 
    look at the difference between hitting a soft wedge and really
    hammering down with the wedge.
      I must take issue on the matter of higher trajectory giving greater
    distance though. Nicklaus, in his "Playing Lessons" talks about hitting
    high long irons. He recommends playing the ball off the left instep
    rather than heel and using one club more for the required distance to
    compensate for the higher trajectory.
       Also on the issue of shaft length, how in the world can changing
    the length of the shaft vary the loft. There are many things you can
    do when hitting a ball to vary its trajectory that have nothing to do
    with shaft length. Play the ball back or forward, hood or open the
    clubface, hit down on the ball or sweep it, but shaft length ? 8^)
    
    Mad Hacker

     Let me muddy the water a little more, guys. By cutting down the shaft
    - even from the butt, you make the shaft performance a tiny bit
    stiffer. Hence, if the shaft has a low kick point which produces a
    higher shot, the "cut" shaft will "act" a tad stiffer. I think the flex
    point will change slightly, and by reducing the butt size the overall
    shaft will be slightly more uniform. This should make the flex point
    move up slightly, producing a slightly lower shot. E= Mc What ???
    
    --Jack

    Well, it's clear to me that changing the length of a club is going to
    force you to make changes to your swing. Either you are going to stand
    farther from the ball, forcing you into a flatter swing plane, or you
    are going to make contact with your hands farther back in the swing. 
    Either scenario looks to me like it would change the effective loft of
    the club (i.e. the angle between the face and the ground at impact) and
    thus the trajectory.
    
    Al
    

>    Well, it's clear to me that changing the length of a club is going to
>    force you to make changes to your swing. Either you are going to stand
>    farther from the ball, forcing you into a flatter swing plane, or you
>    are going to make contact with your hands farther back in the swing. 
>    Either scenario looks to me like it would change the effective loft of
>    the club (i.e. the angle between the face and the ground at impact) and
>    thus the trajectory.
    
    Al,
    
    Why should your swing change? Does you swing change for each club
    in your bag, they are all different lengths? The lie angle will
    change, but the loft angle...?
    
    Regards
    Gene
    

    
    
    Hi Everyone ,
    
    
    	Are we on Bloopers and Practicle jokes?
    
    
    	We are talking about cutting the club shaft 1/2 inch, I will
    	occasionally grip the club in differnet locations plus or
    	minus 1/2 inch... I sure hope it doesn't change the loft !!!
    
    	I agree with Jack, as far as it changes the shaft flex... 
    
    	The only things that change when shortening/lengthening are;
    
    		swing weight
    
    		distance
    
    
    		shaft flex
    
    
    	You guys are kidding about the loft... right???If you really
    	are serious???
    
    	How much do you think it changes the loft?  Did I make my 7 iron
    	an 8 ??
    
    	thanks 
    
    	Walta
    
    
    PS. this is fun :)

    the person who started this note must have a real clear understanding
    of which club 845 or Edge to buy now. Interesting view points however.
    By the way it is around 65 here in Atlanta today, I wish i was out
    testing all this shaft length, spin rate, theory on the course. If any
    of you guys or gals have a trip to Atlanta planned , look me up and
    we will have a field test on spin rate.8^) 8^)
    
    Dan

    re: .32
    
    Look at it this way.  If I added 4 inches (chosen strictly for
    illustration purposes) to the length of my 5-iron, wouldn't I have to
    make some adjustments to my swing versus a normal length 5-iron? I'm
    sure as heck going to stand a lot farther away from the ball, at least!
    Wouldn't (or perhaps couldn't) that change the effective loft?
    
    Now, the point that we're only talking about 1/2" is well taken, though
    I would think that if you are consistent in all aspects of your swing
    (we all are, aren't we??), it would force some subtle changes.
    
    Al
    

    RE: 34
    
    I almost fell off my chair laughing!!!!  This note sure is off subject!
    They're more fun this way!!!!
    
    2 pennies...
    
    shaft length will vary clubhead speed because the longer radius puts
    you out on the curve further.  look at a spinning record.  Therefore
    you would impart MORE spin = greater lift.  Also you would hit the 
    ball harder = more distance.
    
    I would guess a PW on a 2-iron shaft, assuming you could somehow
    pure it, would be sky high, fly 7-iron distance, and suck back
    yards.....
    
    hmmmmmmmm... I need a club in my bag like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    
    A summary...
    
    Yes, if you make a club longer you will get more distance.
    
    Yes, if you make a club shorter you will gain some control and 
    accuracy...
    
    Yes, if you change the loft of a club you will change the trajectory
    of the ball...
    
    Yes, if you use a shaft with a low kick point you will hit the ball
    higher than with a shaft with a high kick point...
    
    Yes, you can change the trajectory of the ball by changing your swing
    or your set up...
    
    Will changing the length of a club within the norm (�" or 1") change
    the trajectory of the ball or your swing? No, I don't think so...
    
    ***********************************************************************
    
    Al, 
    
    Adding 4 inches to the length of your 5 iron would make it about the
    length of a 4 wood. So, if you change your swing for your 3 or 4 wood verses
    the swing you use for your 5 iron, then I guess you would have to
    change your swing if you added 4 inches to you 5 iron... ;-)
    
    Regards
    Gene

wow...this is almost as fun as hitting a good drive straight down the middle
and I'm sure those of us up in the northeast here would rather be doing that!

	on the way home yesterday I'm trying to remember how this note ever
got to the point of length changing loft and had to look it up this a.m.

	In looking back at the various replys I think I should have been more
specific and I also think some others should have been challenged....






	In .7 Walta says that the difference he notices with the edge is that
they put more spin on the ball which made shots fly higher.....

	In .9 Jack gives one of the possible reasons for the increased 
spin/height....

	By .18 I had remembered that Walta had changed the length of the
Edges....

	In .21 Gene ask for an explaniation of what I mean and the explaniation
should have been more to the point. The explaniation should have said changing
the length changes the spec's on the clubs. This causes the perimeter weighted
club, because of the lower center of gravity, make the shots fly higher.






	In .26 I quoted the following when replying to Gene in .25

	"The faster a golf ball spins the greater the lift. A ball with
greater lift has a higher trajectory, longer carry distance...."

						from the golf ball pamplet
						by titleist

	In .27 Gene slips a digit while typing and from then on it's all
downhill.

	from .27 "I agree the faster a ball spins the greater the loft"
	note the quote in .26 says the greater the lift...not loft...





	The 1/2 inch Walta changed the clubs should not make the type of
differences that alot of noters seem to be expecting. I for one am not talking
in terms of getting over that 100 ft. tree in front of you with a driver cut
down 1/2 inch as opposed to getting over it with a 9 iron...but as I read
some of the notes I get the feeling that is what some feel.

	I still stand by my notes .24 and .23 and for those who are still
unsure think about the following:




	Let's do Genes experiment in .27...I'm going to launch two golf
balls at the same angle, let's say 30 degrees. One is launched at 100ft/sec
(the one that is a standard 9 iron or wedge) and one is launched is at
200ft/sec(the one with a 9 iron or wedge head on a three iron shaft)....
	The second is launched at a higher speed because the longer shaft
gives a wider arc thus more time to build clubhead speed....
	Now some would have us think that they would reach the same height
but something tells me that this is not true...





	Outa all this bull the best one goes to Walta for his 
		Bloopers and practicle jokes...that had me rolling
because it seemed so true.....

dick

    BTW...Gene or anyway else who knows...how do those clubs like the Tommy
    Armour E.Q.L. which have the same length shaft throughout the set work?
    
    By that I mean does their 5 iron for example have a 30 deg loft/28 deg
    loft/20 deg loft? 
    I suspect that knowing this may shed some light on wether length is
    a factor in loft....???

     If you wanna hit a 5 iron as far as a 3 iron, but as high as a 7 iron,
    we have the technology - Vaseline on the clubface. I KNOW this works
    (please don't turn me in to the USGA, this technique is as much an
    anathema to them as a trunk full of machine guns to a Mass. State
    Trooper). In fact, in wet weather, KY jelly works even better.
     Here are some tips (no pun...):
    1. Play the ball back a bit.
    2. Hit sharply down on it.
    3. Remember - the "second load" (what's left on the club after you hit
    a shot) ALWAYS works better than the first, but not as much with KY.
    4. For hard fairways, brown carbolic grease (I used to get it from
    field service guys when I was at IBM will make the ball scoot like
    you're hittin' it on a frozen pond.
     I've been "clean" now for several years, but "the grease" was an ego
    trip and a half...
    
    --Jack

    
    re: -1
    
    Jack, I love it.....sounds like you were the Gaylord Perry of 
          the fairways!!!!!!! :-)

     The "spin rate" is defined at how many rpms my head is spinning after 
    reading through the replies in this topic !   Hope it warms up a little
    so you guys can go out and play to clear up your heads.  ;^)


-rick

    re: .42
    
    ya...it's called "cabin fever" up here and usually doesn't set in til
    late Jan. early Feb. but so far this year we've had weather that's
    55 deg for a day or two then 25 deg for a day or two....the ground is
    for all practicle purposes frozen so if you go out to hit balls it's
    like playing on concrete...crazy things happen...

    
    Hi Everyone,
    
    	Our grouped just moved and I just got a chance to read the
    notesfile ....  This has been one of the better chats we've had !
    Seems we have mastered arguing without getting personal , something
    a lot of notesfiles should practice ;) !!!!
    
    	Anyway it's not hard to tell that golf seaon is winding down up
    in New England... I'm looking forward to more challenging discussions
    when the snow hits :) !!
    
    	Hey Gene,
    
    	As a last request, how about cutting the last block of replies
    	out and put them into a "Loft vs Length" type topic?
    	Hell it may fit nicely into the Golf Jokes section ;) ! You guys
    	crack me up !
    
    	think warm,
    
    	Walta

    Since this discussion has gone to shafts, flex points, and launch
    angle, I have new data to evaluate for my selection.
    
    Can you please discuss the following:
    
    1) How does the Apex shaft compare to the Dynamic Gold and the Tommy
    Armour Shaft.
    
    2) I have also been told that the Dynamic Golf S300 is the same in
    relative stiffness to the X100, but that the X100 has a higher flex
    point which should keep the ball lower.
    
    What does anyone think about these issues?
    
    Tim

    Can't talk about the Apex and Tommy Armour because I've never worked
    with them.  The Dynamic Gold X100 is equivilant to the S400 DG if I
    remember the diagram right.  As for the flex point, all TT Dynamic
    shafts have a high bend point.  The difference between the R,S,X rating
    is as you would expect, the stiffness.  As for the rating within a
    category (S200 to S400) is determined by where the shaft falls with the
    flex tolerance for that catagory.  The location of the bendpoint really
    has nothing to do with the number.  Does this help?
    
    
    					KO

    
    The Apex shaft has a mid-shaft kick point, similar to True Temper's
    TT Lite shaft. I am not familiar with what Armour uses for shafts...
    The shaft stiffness in the Dynamic Gold shafts have major flex variants
    that are given a letter, L = Lady, R = Regular, S = Stiff,
    and X = Extra stiff. Within the major flex variants they use the
    numbers 100, 200, 300, 400, and 500, 100 being more flexible and
    the 500 being the stiffest. An S300 shaft is more flexible than
    an X100, a S400 is more flexible than a X100 and a S500 is also
    more flexible than the X100 (why else have the different flexes...!).
    An S400 can be tip trimmed (by "x" additional length to make it play
    as stiff as an X100, but tip trimmed normally is will be more
    flexible...
    
    Regards
    Gene
    (who_is_getting_to_be_a_very_short_timer_and_will_miss_this_file_a_lot)

    Re: Shaft stiffness.
    
    I checked with a local club maker in town who showed me a True Temper
    Dynamic Gold chart.  That chart showed that a X100 is the same in
    relative stiffness to a S300, but the difference is that the bend point
    is higher.  It was interesting to see the overlap in the R,S, and X
    flexes.  Thus, the golfer has stiffness and bend point choices (all
    within a high bend point standard) for the dynamic gold shaft.
    
    
    Just for further info the chart looked like this.  The below shafts on
    the same line are equal in relative stiffness but not bendpoint.
    
    
           	S200
    		S300	X100
    		S400	X200
    		S500	X300
    
Tim                          

    THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION!!
    
    I have decided to build my own set of clubs.  I will be building a Tour
    Series club which is a Armour 845 clone.  I am going to put in the
    Dynamic Gold shafts because of the high bend point; and because I am a
    single digit handicapper, it may offer better control than the TT Lite
    shafts I have been playing in Ping clones. 
    
    From the analysis I did it appears as though the 845 is more of a
    players club than the Edge, thus it should give the results that are
    best suited to my game.
    
    Thanks again for the help!!
    
    Tim                                        

    
}    From the analysis I did it appears as though the 845 is more of a
}    players club than the Edge


	could you please explain this??

thanks 

dick

	I informed Gene that this discussion of shaft stiffness was still
	going on. He said that the X100 is definately stiffer than any of
	the S flexes. That whereever you are getting the info from is 
	incorrect! If you would like to get it from the horses mouth, you
	can call True Temper at 901-767-9411...

    No matter what any chart or opinions may be, I've hit s400 and x100
    shafts in the same head.  The x is ALOT stiffer than any s!  I can't
    flex x100 shafts at all!  I use s400's in most of my own clubs.
    
    Rick

    RE: STIFFNESS.  A local pro showed me a catalog from the Golf Works. 
    That chart showed as listed in a previous reply.  I remember reading in
    the explanation under the shaft characteristics that a comparison to a
    S500 and X300 were made.  It said that these two shafts were the same
    in realative stiffness, yet different because the X had a higher bend
    point that the S.  I have hit S300 S400 and X100 and I cannot tell a
    great difference between them.  I can though tell the difference
    between a TT Lite Stiff and a Dynamic Gold Stiff or X.  I hope this
    clears things up a bit.  You may want to call the Golf Works.  This is
    Ralph Matlby's company, the dean of club repair.
    
    RE: PLAYERS CLUB.	An earlier note made reference to the fact that the
    EDGE is a sole weighted club, and since I have no problems (nor do 
    to most golfers who have played a number of years or who are 
    low handicappers) getting the ball airborne it did not seem to
    be tailored for my game.  One the other hand the 845 is more of a
    perimeter design with heel and toe weight.  Also, its head shape is
    more traditional and it is used by many good golfers in my area, while
    the EDGE does not have that big of marketshare with the good players. 
    So, with all that data, I decided that the 845 was more of a players
    club, because more low handicappers use it than the EDGE.  While both
    look good and are high quality, it appears as though they meet the
    needs of two different levels of golfers and not the same in planned
    functionality.
    
    By the way, my local pro (personal friend) gave me the info to order 845
    clones, and he is also gave me instructions on assembly.  It is a fun
    project.  I will let you all know this spring how the shafts react and
    if over the long haul I see a noticable difference in playability.
    
    Tim
                                                             

    
    Tim,
    
    It sounds like you put more stock in what Golf Works has to say about
    True Temper shafts than what the company (True Temper) has to say about
    its own product. In this case Golf Works is incorrect...

    I know it seems like a conflict, however my local pro says that this is
    correct.  Why else would they have X500's (not even a gorrila could hit
    it).  Not even Jumbo Ozaki could  flex a X500. By the way, a lot
    of the tour pro's hit X100 and S500 shafts, even pro's that are 
    not huge like Fuzzy Zoeller use these flex characteristics.
    
    From my own swing (which generates 110 MPH head speed) I cannot tell
    that big of a difference.  I will let you know what I see next season in
    results.  By the way, do you have any data on how much stiffer each
    step is?  If the steps are very small in stiffness, than you may be
    correct.  If not, I do not see why I cannot feel the large stiffness
    difference.
    
    Tim          

    
    Tim,
    
    It I am not the one that knows the specifics about the shafts etc.,
    it is my husband Gene, who used to be the moderator of this conference
    and who makes and repairs clubs. He called Golf Works and two other
    major component suppliers. Golf Works does claim, as you say, that
    the S300 and X100 are the same flex, but the other suppliers claim
    they are not the same. So, he then called True Temper and they state
    that they are different and go into detail as to what determines a
    shaft stiffness. If you would like to get the "FACTS" then give True
    Temper a call at the number that was posted a few replies back. It
    sounds like your pro is going by what Golf Works is claiming on this
    matter and they are wrong...

    Re:.56
    
    Thanks for the input.  I will talk to my local Pro to see what he knows
    about this.  It would be interesting to know the step differences (i.e.
    S300, S400, S500 etc.); for it may not be that big a deal and explain
    why I cannot feel the difference between a S300 and X100.  I have heard
    from another source in town (who is the largest custom club and repair
    business in town)  that the difference between a dynamic gold and dyanmic is
    really marketing.  He says that the difference between the steps is so
    small that the weight of the label on the shaft can migrate it from a
    S300 to a S400.  He strongly sells people on dynamic versus dynamic
    gold for these reasons.  Incidentally, he is a scratch golfer who plays
    his own 845 clones with Dynamic stiif shafts.  
                      
    Tim. 

    I wanted to let everyone know, I have played three rounds with the 845
    clones with the X100 shafts.  They perform great.
    
    My woods have S300, and the X100 feels no different.  Apparently the
    difference in flex is minor.  Also, the X is hitting the ball much
    lower than the s300 that I previously had.
    
    They are a real winner.
    
    Thanks for all the advice.
    
    Tim

This is not the main topic of this note, but I didn't find any other that
had 845 in the title and I didn't want to start a new one.

I just bought a set  of  used 845's.  The 5 iron has a nicked shaft and I
want to replace it with either  an  original or the same type.  I stopped
at New England Golf Supply and they  said that its a special type.  I can
read in the shaft that is a true  Temper  shaft,  but it doesn't have the
model.

Anybody out there who knows what kind of shaft  it  is?    Or even better
than knows and wants to do the job. (here in Mass.)

Thanks
Tavo

    re: -1
    
    Tavo,
    
    What several club makers and my Pro Shop told me was this was a special
    TT shaft.  The 845 people will only sell it to authorized 845 repair
    people.  They say there is a similar shaft, but I don't what it is.
    
    Dan (who had a dent in my 5-iron)

    As a suggestion, have someone look at the club and match (as close as
    possible) the step pattern. It may not be exact but there are only
    three/four TT shafts they would use. A good clubfitter shouldn't have a
    problem.
    
    Safest bet is to send it back to Tommy Armour +/- $30.
    
    Ken

    This is an old note, but the question I have pertains to the 845's, so
    I figured I wouldn't start a new note.
    
    I've been playing 845's now for 4 years. I love them. I've been
    considering graphite shafts for a little while now, decided this week
    after hitting a kinds of clubs with graphite, to go ahead with some new
    clubs. I spend considerable time hitting the 855's, which are like mush
    after the 845's. I spoke to a couple of pros and they all said the same
    thing. If you own 845's you won't like the 855's. Anyway, the bottom
    line is that I decided to go on a mission and find a set of new 845
    graphites. One shop told me they were completely discontinued and I
    would have to buy some other club. One said they were discontinued, but
    that Tommy Armour still had some inventory left that they were selling
    and gave me a 'special price' of $629. My local pro at the course where
    we play called and said he would get me a set for $499. I questioned
    him about the price and he said they were new 845 with "Commander"?
    graphite stiff shafts. I asked if that was the standard graphite shaft,
    but he had no idea.
    
    I'm sure someone in this notes file either must own a set of graphite
    845's or know someone that does. What is the "Commander" shaft? Is it
    the standard? Is it something that Tommy Armour put out as a cheap set
    of 845 graphite clubs. I'm confused because of the descrepency in
    prices. 
    
    Thanks for any input.
    
    Regards,
    
    Tom
    

    
    re: -1
    
    Why not just have your current clubs reshafted with graphite?
    
    This way, you have the option to pick whatever shaft you like on
    a price/performance basis.
    
    regards,
    Mark

    I was told that the heads are different for the graphite shafts as
    opposed to the steel shafts. I talked with a couple of pro shops around
    here and that's what they all said. Some however, said they could do it
    by adding weight to the head. I'm not sure if that would be more
    trouble than it's worth. I figure even if I went that route, $20-$25
    per shaft, plus labor times 10 clubs = $200/$250 + labor. I can buy the
    new set for $500. Maybe a $100 savings?
    
    Regards,
    
    Tom
    

    
    re. -1
    
    A few  options:
    
           1. Weight the head.  Actually they would put weight down to 
              tip of the shaft where it is inserted into the head.
              This works and allows you to use any shaft you want. 
    
           2.  There are new "low balance point" graphite shafts out.
               They are meant to solve your exact problem. ($20-25 each)
    
           3.  Use a heavy weight graphite shaft (typically very expensive)
    
           
           I don't know what shops charge for labor.  I do know that to
           remove a shaft, cone the hosel for graphite, fit and trim the
           shaft can take about 10-20 minutes per club.
    
       regards,
       Mark
    
       p.s. Depending on the shaft, $500 for a set (10 clubs?) of TA's with
            graphite is a screaming deal...
    

re: last few

Typically, graphite-shafted clubs use heavier heads than steel-shafted
clubs to maintain the "standard" swingweight (D0-D2 for men, C4-C6 for
ladies). In order to use the heads from your steel-shafted clubs with
graphite shafts and keep the same swingweight, you'd have to either add
weight to the head (lead tape or some other method - probably would look
pretty crappy), or as mentioned in .65, add weight down the shaft. This
isn't really desireable, as it adds the weight to the shaft, not the head,
thus changing the COG. The inside diameter of graphite shafts is also 
smaller than that of steel, thus making it difficult to add the weight there
anyway.

    Issue solved. Ordered a set of TA 845 Graphite irons 3-PW for $499 from
    Edwin Watts. They're closing them out at that price since they're
    discontinued. I also added a matching 2, SW, and 4W to the set. Paid
    $15 to have it shipped air. Should have them tommorrow. Thanks for all
    the info.
    
    Regards,
    
    Tom