Conference napalm::musclecars

Who in the Colorado Springs area does really GOOD exhaust system work.  I need, 
sometime in the next couple of months, to get a dual exahust system fabricated 
for the Vega.  Ideally I'd like to run 2.5" pipes to the converters and mufflers
and 1.25" tail pipes.

Mark

    
      Mark,
    
    Give the guys at Muffler Masters a call.  Their phone number is
    636-1087.  They are located at 440 W. Filmore.  I have had good 
    luck with them, and have never found with anyone that was more 
    willing to do exactly what the customer wants.
    
    Tom
    
    P.S.  Is the 1.25" tail pipe diameter a typo?

Yes the 1.25" is a typo.  It should be 2.25".  

I'll give Muffler Masters a call.

As sugested, I stopped by Muffler Masters and asked about an exhaust system for
the Vega.  He quoted me $160 if I bring him the catalytic converters.  Sounds 
like a real decent price to me.

Now the question.  I was told that due to ground clearance problems, that he'd
have to use 2" pipes to construct the system.  How restrictive is 2" pipe as
compared to 2.25"  I really don't want a system that will cause the engine to
run out of breath at 5500 rpm.  What do you folks think?

Thanks,
Mark

Everything else being equal, 2 1/4" pipe will flow 26.56% more exhaust
gas at a given pressure than 2" pipe. I assume 2 1/2" pipe is absolutely
out of the question, but that would flow 56.25% more than the 2 inchers.

I don't know the chassis/floorpan layout, but if it would help, a single
3" pipe will flow 12.5% more than the two 2" pipes.

Bruce

    Anyone have any recommendations on this same type of exhaust work in
    the Mass/S. NH area? (ie. exhaust system from collectors on back,
    including low restriction mufflers).  Both pros or cons welcome, as far
    as who they dealt with, what was used, and how much it cost.
    
    2" ID is what I had in mind for a fairly mild 350" small block Chevy.
    
    Thanks for any assistance!
    
    					Steve George
    					Druid::George

    Tom Fisher and myself have both used Skip's in Plaistow. Maybe someone
    can post the number since I don't have it. Mine cost $250 for the
    complete system (header equipped car) and fits, by far, better than
    any other system I've had installed. There are other people in this
    file that will agree that he does some of the best exhaust work in the
    area.
    
    Chris

Jay Lalley  --  Jay's Custom Exhaust in Lowell (just off the end of "the 
connector"

508-441-9248

he put the 2" duals on my '48 Chrysler  --  and that's a looooong system.
skip

    check out Skips for sure...
    
    I built my own and used 2 1/2" from the collectors with a 2 1/4"
    equalizer about half way between the collectors and the mufflers.
    The mufflers are'72 Caddy's which have 2 1/2" in and 2 1/4" out.
    
    Works better than open collectors at the track! And it sounds great.
    What ever you decide on diameter...get an equalizer pipe built into
    the system. It will make all the difference in the world in torque,
    and in sound.
    
    If your in the Greater Maynard area your welcome to take a look and
    listen at mine anytime.
    
    /tb/
    

In an attempt at keeping The Vega cooler this time around, I am condidering using
the Thermo Tech header wrap.  It is a fibreglass cloth used to wrap the headers
and is claimed to reduce the underhood temps by 70%

Has anyone used this or a similar product?  I hate to spend a cnote on something
that won't do any good.

Thanks,
Mark

Mark,
   I wrapped my shorty headers a couple weeks ago.  Unfortunately, I haven't
installed them yet.  I'm waiting for cylinder heads.

I should know within the next 4 weeks how the stuff performs - I'll let
you know how it goes.  I decided to use the Thermo-Tec wrap because after
installing said shorty headers, I noticed things got a LOT hotter under the 
hood.  I should easily be able to notice an improvement.

Eric

Eric,

Did you use the "special" Thermo-Tec paint as well?

Mark

Mark,
  I debated it, but used a regular flat black exhaust paint - VHT I beleive.
I asked the dude at the local performance shop if they carried the Thermo-Tec
brand coating, and he said they ordered it once, and determined it was
simply header paint.

The regulat paint went on easily and coated everything easily.  I definately
keeps the fiberglass deterioration down by sealing the wrap.  

Eric

Well, based on all the goodness that I have heard about Thermo-Tec, I went out
and picked up a couple of rolls last night.  I'll let you know how it goes in
case anyone else out there ever wants to use the stuff.

Mark

I wrapped the headers with the Thermo-Tec wrap this past weekend.  There sure 
was alot of work involved as the headers are a bit complex in the routing of 
the tubes.  

It took about 2.5 hours to get both of them wrapped.  I used the Thermo-Tec
stainless clamping system (which is really quite slick) and painted them using 
the Thermo-Tec flat black hi temperature coating.  

They came out looking neat!  I just hope that the engine compartment heat 
reduction is a cnotes worth.

Mark

     I am planning on putting headers (among other things) on my 86 IROC,
    and would like some advice from anyone who has done this. Specifically,
    how difficult will the install be, what headers are the best fit, is it
    possible to fit a true dual exhaust in one of these cars and any other
    experience, advice or encouragement.  I am leaning to Blackjack
    alumacoat headers, any comments?
                                 Thanks in advance...
                                             John M.
    

    John, in case you aren't aware of it, Mass (and most of the other
    northeast states) are *very* close to adopting California emission
    standards. When (if) they do, your 'true dual' exhaust won't pass
    inspection since that was not available from the factory that year.
    
    There are companies out there that offer impressive power gains from
    systems that meet the Cal. standards. Basically, headers (with the
    proper emissions fittings), a larger and less restrictive Y-pipe, free
    flowing cat, larger exhaust pipes and a free flowing muffler. Two
    companies that come to mind are Borla and Gale Banks. Nice stuff.
    
    Harry
    

    Thanks Harry,
     When I said "true dual" exhaust, I meant 2 headers to 2 cats to 2
    pipes running down the length of the car on both sides of the
    driveshaft tunnel.  The current system uses 1 pipe to a crossflow
    muffler with 2 outlets. I don't know if there is enough clearance to do
    this, however and if anyone does please let me know. 
     I have heard that Ma. is going to get more strict so I want to be 
    prepared. I plan on getting the headers with the emission control
    hardware (air pump attachments etc) in place, and using a free flowing
    cat (or 2).
                                                     John M.
     

    John,
    
     Mass has already approved the new tougher emissions law but has not
    set a date when it will go into affect. Since your car wasn't available
    with "true dual" exhaust, they wouldn't pass it on the visual, even
    with dual cats. 
    
     There are a couple of company's, like Harry said, that make very good
    exhaust systems for the 3rd generation F-bodies that perform well. This
    may be a better choice since having your car rejected and then having
    to remove anything you may have done would get very expensive.
    
     
    
    

    Well, I guess I'll have to check out the options on the exhaust before
    I do anything, so I don't have to do it twice!  One thing I don't
    understand is if the car passes all emission tests, how can they fail
    it for having a non-stock system?  Also, how far back will this apply, 
    I plan on getting another 69 Camaro SS in the future, will I be able 
    to do anything with this? I am all for clean air, etc. but this is
    getting rediculous.
     Anyway, back to my original point, has anyone put headers in a late
    model Camaro or Firebird, and if so what problems should I prepare for?
                                                             Thanks,
                                                                  John M.
    

The law only applies to catalyst equipped cars.  When I built my 77 V-8 Vega
last year, I took it in for a dual system with one cat per side and they told 
me that they could only put a single exhaust on it.  That is the major reason
that I tore the 77 apart and built a 72.

This law concerning not converting a single catalyst exhaust system to a dual
system is a federal law, not a state law.  They changed the law about a year 
ago.  You can find places (I did) to do the work on the sly but, you may have 
problems if your inspection station looks too close.

Mark

..........according to these emissions laws.

The Massachusetts test only sniffs for baddies at idle, while the 
California test sniffs at idle, and at 2500 rpm (I think). Maybe
Ma. will go to the idle and 2500 test when they decide to actually
implement this California-compliant standard. What I have been told is
that Ma. hasn't implemented the standards because the EPA says they have
to have the full compliance-testing infrastructure in place before they
go ahead. This will apparently cost a lot of money. The clever people in
the Ma. legislature thought they could implement the law without spending
money to insure compliance.

In any event, the logic about changing to dual cats or whatever being a
no-no is that they can't test your car for a full EPA-compliant run on
a dynomometer, so, even if you pass at idle and 2500 rpm, your car *might*
be a gross polluter at road speeds and loads.

You shouldn't get into trouble if you go with one of those new
high-performance cats from Thrush and others. Your car's floorpan is
designed to have one cat (or two cats right next to each other) under the
passenger's seat, anyway, so a true dual exhaust system will be really tough
to implement without clearance problems.

It won't necessarily buy you any power, either. My guess is that the Banks
system, along with a Thrush catalyst and Edelbrock headers, will get you
somewhere around 25 Hp. Maybe 30. Less than half of that gain will come from
behind the collectors, and, if you unbolted the header pipes on this combo,
you'd likely only see maybe 5 more ponies.

Chevrolet says their dual-cat setup is good for 10 HP on their later hot-damn
305s and 350s. and this setup will flow roughly *twice* what their single-cat
system would. There simply isn't a whole bunch of magic to be had from exhaust
changes with these slow-turning motors.

I personally feel that the Edelbrock headers are good because they're *not*
equal length, so the torque curve will be broader. TPI motors are already
tuned to make low and mid-range torque (based on the intkae runner design),
so, having a beefier torque peak and an increased tendency to drop dead at
4500 rpm is *not* the hot tip.

I haven't personally installed headers on a Camabird, but folks tell me that
getting the old headers out is a real b*tch, and putting the new ones in is
the easier part of the job.

Bruce

  Hi,  Bruce
     Thanks for the info, I'll check into the Banks system and Edelbrock
    headers, I did'nt even know Edelbrock made headers. I guess I have been
    out of the hobby too long.
    

    Well I checked with a speed shop owner who is up on the later model
    Camaros and have the straight info on the headers. He recommends the
    Edelbrock system (thanks Bruce). This system seems rather pricey on
    first look (actually on second and third too!), but it is the best way
    to go. The price is $310.00 for the kit, which includes headers,
    collector pipe, gaskets, bolts etc, and very detailed directions. The
    shop I talked to is Indy Auto parts on RT 1 in Peabody Ma, and they
    have installed 6-8 kits. It is an 8 hour job, but not too difficult.
    The worst part appears to be getting the old collector pipe out of the
    cat. con. By replacing everything in front of the cat, the kit is EPA
    approved, if just headers are used you run into a problem as muffler
    shops are not allowed to do anything forward of the cat that is not
    factory. This applys to all cars made after 74.
     I will be purchasing this kit when my tax refund arrives, and will
    post the saga of trying to install it here. Sound like it will be some
    fun.
                                                      John M.
     

    
    
    	It happened.
    
    	I was on my way home from town in my Firebird when I looked out my 
    rear view mirror and observed a cop car coming up behind me. I 
    immediatly slowed to about 5MPH under the speed limit. They followed 
    me for about a mile and then put the lights on and pulled me over. The 
    cop's first words were "Do you have ANY mufflers on this thing at all?" 
    I said yes and after having a look underneath, the cop said "Ah, Cherry
    Bombs". I didn't feel like correcting. They are California Reds.
    
    	I was immediatly subjected to a counseling session the upshot of
    which is that I REALLY OUGHT to think about replacing the exhaust
    system including pipes to the rear of the car before they saw me on the 
    road again. I said I would. They let me go after saying "Nice car". As I 
    pulled away, I saw that there were two cop cars behind me. Most action 
    they'd had in a week, I'm sure.
    
    	Coincidently, there is an article on high-performance mufflers in
    the latest Performance Pontiac magazine. They made a comparison between
    the following mufflers on a drag car at the strip with a 455. Pretty
    applicable I thought:
    	
    	AP XLERATOR 212212
    	Borla 213-R250
    	Cyclone Sonic Turbo 45122
    	The short and long Flowmasters
    	SuperTrapp 547-2519
    	Thrush CVX 46152
    	Walker Dynomax Super Turbo 17734
    	Walker Dynomax Super Turbo 17749
    
    	The article went through the entire test scenario with the listing
    the ambient temperatures, humidity and pressure. It looks like they did
    a good job at establishing test consistency.
    
    	They charted MPH, Backpressure, E.T., and sound level on 4 seperate
    graphs along with a graph showing MPH vs. Backpressure
    
    	The results were interesting. The Flowmaster 42550D, Supertrapp 18,
    and the Dynomax 17749 tied for first place on MPH. The Supertrapp 18
    came in first on backpressure followed by the Dynomax 17749. The
    Supertrapp 18 came in first on E.T. followed by the Dynomax 17749. And
    the Dynomax 17749 came in first on sound level (or lack thereof)
    followed by the AP XLERATOR. The Supertrapp came in last! Also, with
    the exception of the sound level test, everything was really close.
    
    	In case you didn't notice, the Walker Dynomax Super Turbo 17749
    scored the consistently best on all 4 tests:
    
    		MPH	- 	Tied for first
    		Backpressure	Second
    		E.T.	- 	Second
    		Sound	-	First
    
    	Has anyone had any experiance with these? If I was going to go out
    today and buy a couple mufflers, I'd pick the 17749s. And by the way,
    there the cheapest too! What a deal!
    
    	Dave
                                                                       

    Dave, 
    Think the law enforcment officers would like th sound if you plumbed
    in a Glockenspiel? 
    
    TMW

    Have you got a "cross-over" pipe on that bird yet?  It really will
    quite it down. You'll probably find that even the other mufflers will
    be loud without it.
    
    I run Caddy mufflers, which are pretty quite with the cross-over but
    are loud without it.
    
    /tb/

    
    
    	I may go for a crossover if the 2.5" duals don't work out. All I'm
    trying to accomplish is not to be pulled over by the cops and not have
    the car sound like a jackhammer.
    
    	Dave

    
    
    	Re: .26
    
    	I'd have to plumb the Glockenspiel into the intake manifold; its a
    vacuum operated device. Of course, this would do little for performance
    or noise reduction and I don't think the Glock could take the magnitude
    of vacuum produced by the 455.
    
    	I did order the 17749s last night. We'll see how they do.
    
    	Dave

      I had those Dynomax mufflers on a 430 Buick.  They sounded real
    tame until you got on it at which point they roared.  I really liked
    them.
    
    Rich

    
    
    	Last Saturday, I installed the 17749's. The Firebird is quite a bit
    quieter now but even the most casual of observers could tell that the
    car doesn't have the stock engine. With the mufflers, I installed 16
    feet of 2.5" pipe and a few hangers and cross-braces. I ran the tail
    pipes under the rear end due to the fact that I didn't have any way to
    bend the pipe and didn't want to put those big bends in there and up
    the back pressure. The engine seems quite happy! Just as much or more
    power than with the glass-packs. And the cops should be happier too.
    Only problem is than when the engine is idling and wanting to tear the
    mounts out because of the vibration, The pipes hit on surrounding
    supports and ring a bit. I'll have to get some hi-temp wrap and use it
    for padding.
    
    	In case anyone wants some lightly used California Red "mufflers",
    I've got a couple available. They look identical to the THR-40154 4" 
    Thrush Big Tube Turnout Mufflers in the lower left corner, page 176, of 
    Summit's latest (July-August 1992) catalog. As you can see, they
    weren't cheap. But I'll let 'em go for cheap in case anyone wants to
    releive the bordom of their local police department. 
    
    
    	Dave

    
    REcommendations....
    
    My 68 mustang convertible came with a 351C straight dual exhaust.
    I have replaced the 351C with a 289 (1967).  If I remember correctly,
    the mufflers and tailpipes are fine.  The current intermediate pipes
    are not the proper ones for attaching to the exhaust manifolds.
    
    I'm assuming I can get the right intermediate pipes,etc (once I 
    determine the right part #) and connect them between the e.Manifolds
    and the mufflers.  Or is it just better to buy a whole new 
    dual exhaust system kit for a 289?  I think Mustang unlimited has
    them for $189.99.
    
    lisa

My opinion follows:

Exhaust systems are one of those things where if you have unlimited time and
patience, it may be worth trying to stitch together various new and old peices,
with clamps, expanders, collers, etc.  Unless the old mufflers and tailpipes
were virtually new, you'd be opening up a bag of snakes trying to get stuff to
fit and seal properly.  After you gash open your palm, you'll see why even 
Midas begins to look good ;-).

The mail order system is $189  - presumably it includes clamps and everything
you need?  You still end up with a clamped system (not welded) and you hope
the pieces fit, and that you can physically get them into your car.  You can't
look at the quality of the pipes and mufflers, if it's mail order, of course.
Also, over the phone "everything fits" - reality may indicate something else.


A excellent local shop quoted me $250 for a set of duals, with crossover, for
my Mustang.  This would be a custom-made, all welded system - all I do is 
write the check.  Get some quotes from local shops, and take a look at the
stuff they'll use - are the pipes aluminized?   Are the mufflers the regular
quiet type, or the $5-cheaper "turbo" mufflers, etc.?  Your time is worth 
something, and there's nothing as nice as a well-crafted custom system that
isn't a kit.  

I would avoid chain-type shops, unless one has a particularly good reputation.
Usually, there's a hole-in-the-wall exhaust shop that will do great work.  Talk
to the engine-builder shops and the hot-rodder crowd, and see who they 
recommend in your area for good exhaust work.


My .02 worth,

steve

       Is there any good places to have a custom exhaust system built
    in North Central MA?  I have a '69 Cutlass with the stock single
    exhaust manifolds that require custom pipes to be fitted in order
    to run duals.  I have been unable to locate a set of dual exhaust
    manifolds, and since it is a 4-speed, headers would be a major
    hassle to install.
    
    Midas will not do it because of the "non-stock" configuration I
    require, so I need a customer bender.  I know that there is a place
    somewhere in Ayer, MA that will do it, but I have been unable to
    find out the name of the place.
    
    Anyone know?
    
    Rich

    Midas, Mienike, Shorettes on Rt27 Maynard MA., Mario&son in Fitchburg
    MA. are some suggestions.
    
    
    					/Dave
    

    
    
    Grafton Tire and Pepper's Automotive (Also in Grafton) have custom
    pipe bending machines.
    
    /Andy

    Skip's Exhaust, Plaistow, NH, on route 125, exactly 4 miles north of
    route 495 (exit 51).
    
    Dave Ray is the guy. He is an absolute artist.
    
    603-382-1010
    
    Bruce

Call Don Partridge in Ayer.  He used to be Ayer Texaco on Littleton Road 
but now the sign says C.W. Fuels (C.W.Lorden sells the fuel, Don owns the 
building and still does repairs there)

772-0163


...or you can call Jay Lally at Jay's Custom Exhaust in Lowell (at the end 
of the connector) 441-9248.  He built the 2" dual exhaust system for my '48 
Chrysler and the 2 1/2" dual exhaust system for my '34.

      Thanks for all the responses.  I'm sure I can find a place out
    of all those.
    
    Rich

    I'll second Bruce's recommendation. SKIP's (Dave Ray) does high quality
    work. 
    
    
    Ross

       I finally settled on Meineke in Maynard to do the
    customer duals for my Olds.  I was amazed at how many
    places would not touch my car due to the custom work
    involved.  They did a good job, and the guy that did it
    tells me he will bend any kind of system that someone wants.
    
    Rich

    Yet another recomendation for Skip's in Plaistow. I brought my Camaro
    there yesterday. 
    
    I had 2 � straight duals installed with a balance tube all connecting to
    Dynamax mufflers.  It is truley a work of art.
    
    This is certainly a different type of muffler shop. There were several
    race cars there along with other collectables, not a single family car.
    
    I met Dave Ray, a nice guy and a real motor head. He has a drag car and
    a low 11 second street car.
    
    Make sure to call ahead it is normally a 4-5 day wait, and bring cash.
    
    mh

    Okay, this isn't exactly a muscle car, but it has at least a little
    muscle.  It's a '97 Chevy K3500 with the 6.5L turbo.  I generally run
    the motor around 2500-3000 RPM under load since that appears to be the
    sweet spot for hauling my 2-horse trailer.
    
    The current system is a fairly large head pipe going to a cat and then
    a muffler and then necked down to a 2.5" tail pipe.
    
    My question is whether I'd gain anything by going to a larger-diameter
    system such as the "sewer-pipe" arrangement found on the full-size
    Dodges.  I know I'm not turning that many RPMs, but those RPMs are from
    a 6.5L motor so I must be moving a significant volume through that
    pipe.
    
    What's your advice?  Would anything be gained by going to a larger-
    diameter system, or should I just drive it?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Craig Pahigian

    Craig, give the folks at Gale Banks Engineering a call. They can
    seriously perk up that diesel. I don't have their number handy, but a
    found them a while back by doing an advanced search on Alta Vista for
    "Gale Banks" near exhaust. They make all kinds of thing to make diesels
    really scream.
    
    Harry
    

    HI,  I have a "94" Mustang GT and was wondering what exhaust would give
    me a better,barkier sound from my 5.0?  I hear from people that dynomax 
    is good, Borla and there are a couple of others but I just can't seem
    to decide.  
    
    Thanks, Roger

    
    
    	Hi Roger,
    
    There are alot of Mustangs owners running around out there with Dynomax
    exhaust and love it. I myself had Dynomax on mine and liked it for a
    while but it got on my nerves after a while. Usually under normal
    circumstances, I drive with RPM's around 2000 and thats where I found
    there was way too much resonance which became annoying. I decided to
    switch to Flowmaster exhaust and love it! The sound was much more crisp
    and clean sounding. I found it gave the car a much tougher sound and
    there was no more resonance. From what I have seen and heard, the
    mufflers will probably out last the car. Put it this way, even if the
    car was to lose a little performance I'ld still buy Flowmaster.
    
    
    				From the GREAT WHITE NORTH
    
    					WADE
    
    P.S. After re-reading my note you would think I have stock in the
    company!!

    Read an article in a recent rag that talk about FlowMaster and their
    approach.  FlowMaster uses phase cancellation to keep the noise down,
    but the sound is still there.  The two mufflers are different sizes.
    Being an audio head, I got in to the article (and the concept).  They 
    also said that the FlowMAster system out-performed the competition 
    (Borla, DynoMAx, etc...) in HP boost.
    
    FWIW.