Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    You're missing the point, Len. DAT (aside from music professionals) is
    for audiophiles who have *for long time* invested in inaudible quality
    gains. The audiophile standard is whether the physicists can measure a
    difference; the ears are irrelevant.
    
    It's the same logic that causes people to buy 300ZX sports cars capable
    of three times the speed limit -- the appeal has little to do with
    functionality :).
    
    JMHO - Hoyt

    Methinks you got the audiophiles' raison d'etre bass-ackwards, Hoyt.
    
    Specs are irrelevant, only the ears matter. Why else would scribbling
    on your CDs with green magic marker or hiding little pieces of 
    aluminum foil in your laundry room gain any acceptance?
    
    Edd

    Wow: "raison d'etre"?! Some who owes dried grapes? :)
    
    I think that $9000 stereo "systems" and green magic-markers *might* be
    two different crowds... and to the extent they're the same, it's
    because "64 times over-sampled" and green magic-marker are variations
    on the same thing -- mystic uncomprehensible alchemy.
    
    Another analogy is the Freudians versus the behaviorists: the former
    say that the latter "only cure the symptoms." The human mind seems to
    have a disposition toward things too murky to understand (or hear).
    Folk would rather spend $110/hour discussing the implications of their
    synapses flashing during sleep (i.e. dreams). Then drive home fast,
    listening to green-circled CDs en route (<- French-alert!).
    
    - Hoyt (behaviorist with a $500 stereo and 11-year-old Buick... and 2 386s)

    Len, YOU own a 300Z, don't you?.... ;^)
    
    I was ejected from the Internet High-End Audio distribution list for
    picking on audiophiles who spent two days arguing over the 'coloring'
    of different sets of 'matched' tubes from the same manufacturer. This
    gentleman was extatic because he had 'dared' to mix un-matched tube
    sets, and had found 'the ideal soundstage'. I just happened to mention
    using something called a spectral analyzer, hoping he could quantify
    his results, and whammo, I was banned for heresy. I now bear the
    scarlet letter 'A' for Audiophilistine.
    
    dp
    
    me and Hester, we be mates... ;^)

    
    Edd,
    
    I must have missed out on something here... I know I won't be able to
    sleep if you don't reveal the secrets of the Green Magic (indeed!)
    Marker, not to mention the no doubt amazing effects of hidden aluminum
    foil...
    
    Mr. mod, don't route me to another conf please...
    
    Jeroen

    Without going into too much detail, painting the edges of CDs
    and placing bits of aluminum foil in strategic positions in your
    listening room have been offered as ways to increase fidelity.
    
    Some audiophiles claim to hear differences when these techniques
    are applied. I've no doubt that they do.
    
    Edd 

Chastity belts help increase fidelity as well...don't know how you hook them
up to your amp, though-

    uh, "What's 'SCMS',", he said.  It's cool that repeated A-D, D-A
    conversions don't hose the signals too badly.. but what's SCMS ?
    
    karl

    "Serial Copy Management System"....prevents digital copying from a
    copy of a digital source (including your own master tapes, for
    instance).  Included on all US sold DAT machines intended for
    "consumer" use (as opposed to pro use), like the Sony machine in all
    the dept. stores for $799.
    
    						Brian

    
    RE:.6
    
    Edd, used the marker on John Lee Hooker, fidelity changed instantly
    from blues to greens,
    dankjewel (that's thanks in my lingo)
    Jeroen
    

    Huh?  DAT won't copy DIS but may copy DAT?  
    
    I'm pretty ignorant concerning DAT recording...  Is there really a
    mechanism preventing you from backing up your CDs onto a DAT recorder
    that you buy? 
    
    _John_
    

    > BAcking up CDs...
    
    No, the SCMS is designed to prevent you from making *digital* copies
    of your *digital* copies of your CDs. (i.e. The 3rd generation must
    be analog.)
    
    Edd

Just out of curiosity, when you say "Digital Copies", do you mean that you
actually transfer the numbers directly from a CD to a DAT?  Do any extant
CD players have digital output?

Burns

    Yes, and yes, although I have no make/model info.
    
    Edd

    
    Hi,
    
    	Sony has at least one model with direct digital output.  I looked
    at it about a year ago, as I was curious.  I don't remember if it was
    coax or fiber optic...
    
    	It had some blurb saying something to the extent of "for support of
    future devices that will provide digital to digital transfer...".
    
    	Hmmm.. It was a while ago...
    
    _John_
    

   Please correct me if I'm wrong. -

     I didn't think that direct digital CD OUT to digital DAT IN would work
   because of the different sampling rates of the two mediums.  Are you sure
   that the direct connection will work?

   Bill Powers  

    While "consumer" DAT recorders are not allowed to sample at 44.1 KHz,
    the pro machines can.
    
    len.
    

    Huh? Now I be confused... Consumer DATs must have SCMS, but can't use
    44.1khz sampling rate?
    
    Can they use 88.2?
    
    Edd

    Has anybody heard anything lately about recordable CD's?  The last time
    I heard anything was over a year ago.  At that time Tandy was
    supposedly working on developing one.  It seems to me that if they can
    come up with this DAT will not become that popular.
    
    Byron  
    

    
    Akai has one...for 14 grand. 
    
    CdH
    

    re .18 - right, that's my understanding - consumer DAT's can't sample
    at 44.1KHz, and must implement SCMS.  Go figure.  The sample rates
    supported are 32KHz and 48KHz.
    
    Note that SCMS prevents digital "pirating" of DATs themselves.  BFD.
    It also means that DAT copies of CDs made via the analog ports can't
    be digitally duplicated at the 2nd generation.
    
    Nobody claimed the RIAA's being rational about DAT piracy.  Note that
    they're still going for the blank tape tax as well!
    
    len.
    

re: .19

"... DAT wouldn't become that popular."

Depends.  The recordable CD will be a Write Once, Read Many device, whereas
DAT, like other tapes, is re-recordable.  Also, the two sampling rates on DATs
allow you to record up to 2 or 4 hours on one tape, whereas the CD I'm assuming
won't allow much more than 1 hour.  (yes, I know what happens when I assume...)

Then there's the price.  DATs will slowly start coming down a bit.  Because
of the technology involved, and I'm not sure what process say Tandy would use
for "burning" the CDs, I can't imagine a recordable CD player coming in at
anything but the VERY high end consumer range.  Perhaps that's what's holding
them up... "yeah we can make it, but how do we make it CHEAP enough??"

-TR

Not beig real familiar wtih digital samplers and stuff, this may sound like
a niave question, but......

Is the DAT (or CD) digital output compatible in any way with digital samplers? 
In other words, could you directly sample a sound from a CD/DAT to your 
keyboard??? That would be cool!

alan

  <<< Note 2588.23 by DPE::STARR "SRV......I can't believe you're gone...." >>>
                -< sampling directly from DAT/CD to keyboard? >-

>Is the DAT (or CD) digital output compatible in any way with digital samplers? 
>In other words, could you directly sample a sound from a CD/DAT to your 
>keyboard??? That would be cool!
    
    Two kinds of digital output on this gear; the low-cost 'fiber' solution
    that I know little about, mentioned earlier, and a standard developed
    by the Audio Engineering Society, the AES/EBU connection standard.  
    
    Your DAT/CD and sampler would have to be similarly equipped.  Let me
    know how it goes.
    karl
    

> Your DAT/CD and sampler would have to be similarly equipped.  

Hmmmmm...it would be interesting to know if these exist. It would be nice to 
be able to directly sample, let's say, the opening bass drum on Led Zeppelin's
"When The Levee Breaks" for your drum sounds! Or directly sample a digital
piano from a DDD recording of one. 

There could be a whole new market for sound-effect CDs, with just sounds on
them that people could sample from.....

> Let me know how it goes.

Don't wait for an answer from me! 8^) I don't (and probably won't ever) have 
that kind of equipment. But maybe others here might?

alan
_MIDIOT_at_large

>It would be nice to 
>be able to directly sample, let's say, the opening bass drum on Led Zeppelin's
>"When The Levee Breaks" for your drum sounds!

Wait till the RIAA hears about that one!

Burns

    I believe that the reference to the writeable CD is to Thor.  It ain't
    out yet, even though it was supposed to be out, what, about two years
    ago?  Anyway ...
    
    Is the big deal about not being able to record digital to digital
    all because of the sampling frequencies?  I thought there was more to
    it than that.  If that's all, then I think I would use a technique used
    in the video world to sample at, say, 44 kHz from a 41 kHz source. 
    That is, I'd do linear interpolation between the 41 kHz samples to
    generate a signal that could be sampled at any sampling frequency and
    would yield very little noticeable error.  That's pretty much what is
    being done doing D->A->D except that in this process the interpolation
    is non-linear and due to the frequency responses of the analog
    equipment.  This interpolation process could be done in the digital
    domain with the interpolated values being calculated for the output
    frequency sample points.  It'd be an improvement over the process
    described in the base note.  Once you could do, say, 40 generations of
    duplication this way, what would be the point of the protection?
    
    I think the only reason why a technique along these lines won't be
    done is because most consumers can't tell the difference even with
    current technology.  I think the point well taken is that if they were
    trying to keep folks from getting great copies from CDs they've already
    failed.  Now is the time to just watch the price of this stuff drop.
    Say, maybe that's why Thor failed ...
    
    Steve
         

    It was my understanding that Tandy was working on a CD that could be
    written to over and over.  This is why it is taking them so long.  They 
    already have the write once technology.  I also heard that they were
    supposed to hold almost 6 times as much music as a conventional CD
    because of data compression techniques they had come up with.
    
    Byron

    Re: Tandy
    
    They're still busy at this, in fact they are constantly advertising for
    engineers to work on it, not necessarily a good sign...
    
    RE: DAT in general
    
    Just saw the Sony DAT Walkman (yep) today, the thing has a power supply
    almost as big as the deck.  Pretty slick, and yes, it has full digital
    I/O as well as analog, plus SCMS.  $800 was what the owner told me he
    paid, $10 a pop for 2 hr. tapes.  Considering that it's portable *and*
    it'll blow away any cassette deck you ever heard, well, that's
    a reasonable price.  Scheming....
    
    
    						Brian

    Yeah, I'll bet a DAT sounds alot better than a standard cassette when
    you use the little condenser mike built into it's case.
    
    Pardon the cynicism, but it would appear that storage medium isn't 
    that much of a factor in "walkman" type applications. Or is it?
    
    Edd

    Except the guy was using a couple of nice EV condensors with it; there
    is no built-in mike.  I expect the mike preamp isn't as clean as the one in
    the $2000 portable R-DAT, though.  It's a tiny three conductor 1/8"
    input, but there's not exactly any room for XLR jacks.
    
    Try fitting a Revox 1/2 track in yer pocket sometime.  I'm impressed.
    You could sit this thing on the top of your mixing board.
    
    						Brian

    
    It also uses a 180- degree tape wrap, as compared to the 90 degree wrap
    in most R-Dat's. Expect shorter head, capstan, and tape life.
    
    CdH
    

    Re: last few
    
    OK, I was wrong, the Walkman DAT is a piece of s**t.    8^)  8^)
    
    Just pointing out that the technology exists to put a digital recorder
    into your pocket.  I didn't say it was perfect.  That costs extra  8^)
    
    Every Deadhead will want one....
    
    
    							Brian

Walkman DAT:
  I saw the Sony Walkman DAT over in Japan back in November and +almost+
  impulse bought it.  I had reservations about the fact the doc would all
  be in Japanese.  (although I'm sure I could have figured out the basic
  operation of the thing)  Then there was power supply questions, import
  duties...  (import duties?  what's that he asked)   Hmmm, being the Jap
  model though, it wouldn't had had SCMS!  Interesting, the price of it over
  there at the current exchange rate came out to about $800, no difference.
  EM or Keyboard recently gave it a good review.

Recordable CD:
  The fact that it is re-re-re-re-cordable, and held so much more data,
  wouldn't that make it incompatible with today's units?  That would be
  major downfall... unless it had multiple modes of operation, that would
  be major cool!

-TR

    RE .23
    
    > Is the DAT (or CD) digital output compatible in any way with digital
    > samplers?
    > In other words, could you directly sample a sound from a CD/DAT to your
    > keyboard??? That would be cool!
    
    	Digidesign has it now (for a price).  If you have a Macintosh with
    at least one slot, and the Digidesign Sound Accelerator Card with a
    DAT/IO interface, and a compatable DAT, (and a disk with enough
    capacity to store what you want at 10 meg per minute), then you can
    move information digitally in real time to and from the DAT to your
    harddrive and edit with the Sound Tools package.  If you have a CD with
    a digital port compatible with your DAT, then you could transfer your
    sound from the CD to the DAT first, then use Sound Tools. You can then 
    move (parts of) this sound to and from your Sampler with programs like 
    Alchemy, (perhaps Soundtools does this too - I'm not sure).  Digidesign 
    also has its own Sampler on a chip called Sample Cell which connects to 
    another slot on the Mac, (so you now have exceeded the slots of my IIsi),
    which also can load information off the harddrive (if you have Soundtools 
    and the Accelerator card) allows you to play it back via your Midi
    keyboard.  Up to 8 meg of samples per card, and I think up to 4 cards
    per MAC.  (Add another slot per card).  Sample Cell does not sample by 
    itself though.  It is a sample player only.  However, it also comes with 
    a CD with tons of samples, but these require a MAC-type CD player and 
    are encoded in the Sound Designer format (I think).  Companies like 
    Prosonus make these CD's.
    
    Price?  Expensive!  Just count up the number of parentheses in the last
    paragraphy and multiply by megabucks.  
    
    Cheapest configuration I could see:  
          MAC IIsi (~ $3000.00)
    	  Accelerator Card and Soundtools  (~$2000)
    	  DAT  (~$1500 - $2500)
    	  DISK DRIVE (has to be quick, < 28 millisec)  (~$700-$2500)
    						         45 meg - 600 meg
    	  Your sampler and MIDI keyboard.
    	  Cables
    			
    	  (Of course, they have many other product that you would just HAVE
           to HAVE, so add another $2000 - $5000).
    
    	  Still cheaper than a Synclavier, but more expensive than a
    Portastudio.  I'll tell you what though.  This company has got some
    great stuff if you want to really get serious about Digital recording. 
    Looks like they are working with several vendors to put more chips
    (GUTS of SGU's and Sound Processors) on the MAC, (like a LEXICON reverb 
    chip, as well as a Proteus Chip which already exists), and basically 
    give you a system where rackmounts become these chips, and the MAC 
    serves as the control panel for all of your units.  No MIDI wire mess 
    either, because you "wire" your chips and software packages via the 
    MIDI Manager software.  And they have a 4-track Digital mixer called
    DECK, and Studio Vision, and on and on...
    	
    
    	Enough said.  I've drooled all over my keyboard . . .
    
    K.R.

    The Sony "DATman" also got a very good preliminary review recently in one
    of the audio mags.
    
    BTW, the latest Keyboard has a teaser about Alesis's NAMM announcement
    of "A-DAT", an 8-digital-tracks-on-VHS-cassette system that's
    stackable.  The basic 8 track module is $4K, and the thing that glues
    up to 16 (yes, that's 128 tracks) of them together is $2K.  So, 8
    tracks - $4K,  16 tracks - $10K, 24 tracks - $14K, etc.  Since it's
    Alesis, we can be sure it'll be cheap, uh, inexpensive; but will it
    work reliably long enough to be worth it?  If the mechanicals are just
    standard VHS transports and all they're providing is electronics,
    maybe...
    
    Gotta wonder how they do this, as Sony gets two tracks of 16 bit
    digital via their F-1 PCM adaptor, and Toshiba gets two tracks of 
    14 bit digital with their DX-900 VHS/HiFi deck.
    
    8 tracks of 16 bits at 44.1KHz is 56.448 Megabits/second of data, which
    is about half of what has to actually end up on the tape. 
    
    len.
    

  D        A     T    A     C   O   M  P  R  E SS I O N?

    Hey len, did ya see this month's Keyboard story about the DAT box?
    
    You buy 2 channels at a time and can slave multiple boxes together to
    expand the number of tracks. Sound familiar?
    
    Announced by Alesis...
    
    Edd

    re .38 - see reply .36
    
    You're not listening, Eddy....
    
    len.
    

    Whoa, where'd that come from???
    
    Edd

    RE: .17 and .21, others:
    
    The DAT Walkman samples at 48 kHz (analog input only), 44.1kHz. and 32
    kHz. (32 is special LP mode and is 12 instead of 16 bit, with other
    limitations. They push it as for archiving your old LPs, etc.)
    
    It really does sound great -- it even has phantom power! You do have
    to deal with the mini-jacks though. I've been using it with two PZM
    mics until I get the special stereo mic they designed for it.
    
    There was a great review of it in the latest Electronic Musician. They
    didn't even mention that it has a 48kHz sample rate for analog
    recording (some of us still record live music).

    Gee, for $800 I can buy a VHS deck with stereo HiFi (bandwidth >
    20KHz), and a power pack/inverter to run it portably...AND have a bunch
    of money left over...
    
    not to mention that my tape costs $8 per 6-hour tape, not $10 for a
    2-hour tape...
    
    AND that I can record video at the same time!
    
    [do you get the feeling that I'm a little down on DAT?]
    
    	-Bill

    Bill, I kind of agree.  If I'd had access to a VHS HiFi deck, I doubt
    that I'd have gone for the PCM Toshiba VCR.  Of course, it has BOTH,
    and I have (once) dubbed 4 channels at once onto it - 2 channels to
    PCM, 2 channels to HiFi.  All available discretely at the two sets of
    RCA outs.  
    
    karl

    Bill,
    
    Awhile ago I may have been the leading proponent of using HiFi VCRs
    for mastering.
    
    What I have since discovered is that they are VERY prone to getting
    bad drop-outs either with time or repeated use. 
    
    Fortunately I've always mastered simultaneously to VCR and cassette
    and haven't lost anything.
    
    BTW, I've used BOTH Beta and VHS.

    hmmmmm.... 
    
    Maybe I don't use my VCR as much as you use yours (about 2 hours/week
    over the last 6 months- once to record Twin Peaks, once to play it!)
    :-)
    
    My VCR (a Sanyo) has a smart mode that plays the HiFi tracks if it can
    recover them, and the linear tracks otherwise, so dropouts get masked
    pretty darn well (yes, occasionally I see the HiFi LED flicker, but
    it's very rare with good tape).  I can't _hear_ the dropout, probably
    because of the masking effect of substituting in the Lo-Fi track
    automatically.
    
    	-Bill

I was reading, a while back (egad!) and came across an article that mentioned
that VHS HiFi was not the ideal mastering medium that it was cracked up to be.
The author mentioned that although it posesses high bandwidth, there in an odd
distortion introduced when the sound goes from high levels to low levels. Have 
any of the VHS HiFi-ers out there experienced this?

dp

    I have noticed that HiFi is slightly more mid-rangey than PCM.
    
    karl

    From USENET, some thoughts about SCMS issues:
    
From: [email protected] (Scott Fisher)
Subject: SCMS Not a problem for music makers.
Date: 25 Apr 91 03:16:48 GMT
 
I keep seeing all sorts of garbage about the SCMS causing
hassles for copying your masters.  
 
First RECORD YOUR MASTERS AT 48 KHz, SCMS is not implimented at this
sample rate, thus causes no problem.  
 
Before you get excited, There is NO problem DIGITALLY converting 48 KHz 
to 44.1 KHZ.  The result will be INDISTINGUISHABLE from the same material
originally recorded at 44.1 KHz.  All the horror stories you may have heard
are based on assumptions of WIERD conversion techniques that no one uses.
AND you only need to convert to 44.1 KHz if and when you are going to press
your CDs.  So to you, there is and will be NO PROBLEM in working with a
48 KHz master anyway.
 
The CD mastering place may or may not charge you to convert between the
two sample rates.  Phone up and check out.  If they do charge it should
not be much in comparison to the cost of the CDs you are having pressed.
If it is then go somewhere else.  Once again shop around.
 
The other alternative is to buy a Pro deck.  Then you can make as many copies
as you like.  However this brings me to a point that has been bugging me.
Even if you do something as bizzare as mastering at 44.1 KHz on an SCMS deck, 
you can make as many DIGITAL copies from your original master as you like.  
Make 4 copies.  What's the problem?  Think about it, how many backup copies
do you have of your analog masters?  How many backup copies do you have of
your computer software?
 
Think about this, when you come to DIGITALLY copy your DAT tape
you will need at least two decks.  If you really get stuck with a 
protected copy of your 44.1 KHz master, what's the problem with borrowing/
hiring a Pro Deck?  You are going to need to get another deck from somewhere.
As I said, if you did this at 48 KHz in the first place you would not be in 
this mess.
 
If you do the conversion to 44.1 KHz via an analog step, ie...
44.1 Khz recording from the analog outputs of a deck playing a 48 Khz master.  
The resultant 44.1 KHz recording will sound just as good as if you had started 
out at 44.1 KHz.  I think once a few more of you have experience with DAT
you will see what I mean.  Try a 10 generation analog bounce between DAT 
machine and check it against the original.  
 
Finally, SCMS is only a problem to people without pro decks who want to make 
DIGITAL copies of a DAT tape a friend has recorded off a CD that friend 
originally copied off someone else.  I think that was the purpose of SCMS, and
it seems to work.
 
Regards Scott..........STOP WORRYING AND GET INTO DAT!!