Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Unless all the sounds are available via MIDI (as opposed to the HR-16)
    I don't see any advantage to the machine. Indeed, it only has 8 pads
    vs. 16 on the HR series...
    
    Edd

    Hmmm,
    
         I heard things like "stereo samples blah blah blah" "more sounds
    blah blah blah". I played with it, and was HIGHLY impressed with the
    sound.
    
    dp

    Rathole alert!!
    
    > "stereo samples"...
    
    I consider a drum to be a point source. Frankly, from a distance all
    instruments are point sources.
    
    What's the advantage to a stereo sample?
    
    Edd

    It has 299 16-bit stereo samples, plus the review I read said they were
    impressed with the sequencer.
    
    
    matty

    Well, having 299 samples is certainly an advantage. I'd pay $60 for a
    6X increase any day...
    
    Edd

    So would I. That settles it. I'm calling SA, and ordering it. I agree
    with you, Edd, stereo drum samples are of questionable merit for the
    work I do. The large pallate of sounds to draw from, however, is a
    great selling feature. $359 ain't a bad price either. DJM wants $400 no
    haggle.
    
    dp

    Way, way back in the early 1000's (topic-number-wise) I started a topic
    challenging the concept of stereo samples.  With the exception of a
    pipe organ, I'm hard put to think of an instrument with multiple sound
    sources that would benefit from true stereo sampling.
    
    Now, taking point samples and placing them via software parameters
    somewhere in the left-right spectrum makes perfect sense.. but spending
    memory and DAC speed reproducing stereo samples makes NO sense to me.
    
    Of course, I haven't lived with a stereo sampler !  Rebuttals ??
    
    karl

    Where's the machine been reviewed - I've only seen an ad.  The ad was
    worded ambiguously and could have been (cynically) interpreted as
    meaning that the number of samples and the number of preset patterns
    totalled 299.  The ad also said only 120 sounds were simultaneously
    MIDI accessible (admittedly, better than the R-8M's limit of 88, though
    they can be selected from among 146).
    
    Does it take alternative sound cards?  Can the sounds be edited in any
    way (e.g., at least pitch)?  Anything analogous to the R-8's
    performance sections?  Any more than a stereo output?
    
    Regarding the stereo issue, no real musical instrument is a point
    source.  Drums radiate over a substantial spatial area (e.g., a snare
    drum head is 14" in diameter, and shells are at least 5" deep, tom tom
    shells can be 14" to 16" deep.  Cymbals are 20" to 24" in diameter.)
    Whether stereo sampling substantially improves the imaging is
    debateable, but I would not make that argument based on the "point
    source" notion.  In my own experience, the most obvious demonstration of
    the inadequacy of panned point sources is to listen to such a recording
    through headphones and compare it to an "ambient" stereo mic'ed
    recording of a whole kit.  The imaging difference is dramatic. One can
    argue which is better or more accurate, but the difference is real.    
    
    len.
    

	Karl,

	Interesting, the EMAX can't do stereo samples? The EPS can, after
	a fashion. It is, to my tastes, quite wasteful of memory. I have 
	a couple of stereo samples, most notably a grand piano sample which
	is pretty good. But it's huge (900 blocks, or about 1/2 meg), and
	I don't need to use stereo that often (and besides, it messes up if
	I patch out to a mono solo out). The biggest problem is that they are
	a pain to make, even with sample editing tools. 

	Of course, of the SR16 has done all of that for you, then it's a moot
	point. But I would think that mucking with the pans on stereo samples
	doesn't do much for the "stereo"...

	/pjh

A stereo sample could have a stereo artificial ambiance or other effect added to
it.  If the SR-16 is anything like the HR-16B it probably has lots of those.

    Len brings up an interesting point. Re the magic 299 number: Is that a
    combination of patters and sounds or is that just sounds. Preset
    patters are all but useless to me. 
    
    No ROM cartridges. That I know for certain.
    
    I assume (ha!) that you can tune the samples just like you can with the
    HR-16. I could, or course, be wrong.
    
    dp (Agamemnon! I'm listening to Elektra while writing this.)
    

    re .9, paul, EMAX II allegedly handles EIII stereo samples.
    
    I've heard the "stereo samples got builtin ambience" argument before.. 
    I already HAVE outboard FX processors that *I* can apply to taste.  If 
    you got builtin ambience, good luck getting rid of it.
    
    karl

    
    
    The aforementioned toy was reviewed in U.K. Sound on Sound Magazine
    this month. Much of the above conjecture is correct. Bear in mind this
    is a growing market place and the people like Alesis(SP?) are trying to
    attract the first time buyers as much as you hardened PFP hagglers.
    
    Stereo is ambient treatment of the signals. But to cancel Karls
    argument they also add Dry treatments of some iof the sounds. Could be
    useful if you don't want to tie up an FX box. (Or haven't benn able to
    afford one yet.
    
    299 sounds but 100 and something available in "Expander" mode.
    
    Something akin to the R8's cross-fade approach to the sound based on
    velocity.
    
    Interesting performance mode whereby you can record a pattern plus an
    alternative plus a couple of fills. and by hitting a pedal during play
    it will produce a fill and then swing into the alternative pattern.
    Plus one or a alternatives to this sequence depending on your
    requirement.
    
    I haven't heard the machine but the review was quite complementary.
    
    I think they will sell quite a few.
    
    I don't need one.
    
    Did I offend any laws, copywrites, people etc.. with the above?
    
    
    						Paul. 
     

    re -.1
    
    Dunno, Paul, we'll have to run it by the folks in legal...  ;^)
    
    dp

    I made a mistake.  I checked last night with the review Paul refered
    to.  It has only 233 sounds, of which (as Paul said) some are just dry
    sounds of other sounds included in the 233.
    
    The sequencer stores something like 50 patterns at once, with each
    pattern being split into 2 and each split having it's own fill, ie;
    
    A1, A2, B1, B2.  When linking sequences you could be on Pattern A, so
    then you could press for Pattern B and it would automatically put Fill
    A2 into action before going to B1 and visa versa from B to A.
    
    You can only assign 9 of the sounds per pattern, but you can still have
    50 patterns, each with their own drum kit, running at alternating
    tempo's each with the 4 sub-patterns.
    
    I'll bring the rag in tomorrow.  Basically the summary said the only
    negative points were that it did not have a ROM port, and that the
    pads could be bigger.
    
    
    matty

    Regarding the number of sounds simultaneously availble via MIDI, I read
    an article in Alesis' user group mag 'The First Reflection' written by
    Craig Anderton which said that a D40-49(?) mode must be selected which
    makes drum kits 40-49 (12 sounds per kit) accessible at one time.
    Otherwise, program changes must be used to switch drum kits. I've got
    one on order here in Tennessee ($330 plus tax) and should be getting
    it soon. Will review it here if anyone is interested.

    re -1
    	I'm about to get into an electronic kit. My cousin is a dealer in the
    midwest and said he's sold a bunch of them all happy customers. Do you
    (or anyone else) agree or disagree?
    
    	Rich CSC/CS 592-2795             

    
    
      Does the SR16 listen to controller info like pan, volume?
    
      Can we change pitch, sound etc via midi?
    
    
      SM
    
                          

    Sorry, I've been offline a few months... re:.-2 I'm very happy with the
    sounds (233 of them). Re:.-1 you cannot change via MIDI pan, volume, or
    tuning - only program change (drum kits). There is a mode which can
    give you access to 120 sounds (each a different MIDI note #) without
    resorting to program change. Internally, there are 7 pan positions, and
    6 degrees of tuning. Volume is adjustable from 0-99. My main complaint
    is with the size of the 12 pads - too small and a bit stiff. But other
    features make up. Fifty patterns (four subpatterns each - A, B, A fill, 
    and B fill - really makes for 200 patterns); 3 velocity curves and 8(?)
    fixed velocity responses; quanitization with or without swing select.
    Overall, I've not regretted spending the $330.00 for one minute.
    
    Dave Robert (MSDSWS::DROBERT)