Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Lindsay, as you well know, there are many different reasons for
    buying different computers. If you asked your question in the MAC
    notes you'd probably get a slightly different answer than if you
    asked it in the PC notes. All would certainly try and be impartial
    but would likely bias the answer with their own experiences.
    
    I am a converted PC to MAC user and would never go back, so up 
    front I am biassed. However,my choice to go to MAC was partly 
    as a result of getting the MAC at a good price, so budget is 
    obviously a major factor.
    
    As a VERY broad statement, I would say that you could probably do
    whatever you like on either machine. The way you would achieve it
    would be different. If you are solely looking at MIDI and music,
    then perhaps a PC is a solution and save the extra bucks for MIDI
    h/w. If, however, you are like most of us who use the computer for
    other things, then your choice is more difficult. The MAC is a superb
    machine and doesn't require you to become terribly computer literate.
    The PC is catching up but in my opinion has a way to go yet. The
    big advantage is of course cost. 
                                                                  
    Browse a bit more through this notesfile (do the dir/title thing)
    I would also suggest that you take a trip through the MAC notesfile.
    
    Ken
     

    Lindsay, 
    
    I run my MIDI studio with a '286-based AT clone.  I also use it for
    personal finances(MYM), word processing and of course, GAMES!!!
    
    Based on your original comments there does not seem to be a whole lot
    you want to do that either the MAC or PC standard couldn't handle.  So
    it comes down to HOW you want to do it...
    
    Although the MAC is a very nice machine (yes, here comes my bias :^) ),
    whenever I have thought of buying one the cost has seemed to me to be
    prohibitive once you add up all the bells and whistles.  Part of this
    is due to the MAC's having a "closed architecture".  And, as the
    previous noter pointed out, the PC's user interface is coming closer
    and closer to the MAC's (which tends to neutralize that particular
    advantage).  
    
    I have seen some pretty nifty music S/W designed for the MAC and
    occaisionally wondered about picking up a used one just for music.
    But again, given the cost of repurchasing all of my music S/W, it just
    didn't make sense.
    
    On the subject of what you need, you mentioned a '386 and a laser
    printer among the items.  Unless you have some other requirements than
    music (patch editor/librarians, sequencers, etc.) anything more than a
    '286 based machine is probably not worth it; you could probably run all
    of the music S/W with an 8088, easily.  Of course, if you'll be using
    the machine for lots of other things... The same goes for a laser 
    printer.  Sure they look great, but they are significantly more (4-5X)
    than a good 24-pin machine.  If you are publishing, then yes a laser is
    the way to go, but for personal use...
    
    All of these things could mean getting you computer, peripherals, and
    S/W for hundreds less than the $3000 you have budgeted.  You might take
    that savings and buy some more MIDI toys!!! :^)
    
    Bill (who's really not supposed to be here)
    

    Don't neglect the Amiga.  Some models of the Amiga can be upgraded to
    emulate both Macintoshs and PC types later.
    The amiga has built in color, windowing, , multitasking, things that
    had to be added to the other computers.
    For extra money you can run xwindows, C and so on.
    WordPerfect and games and many different music programs are available. 
    Tom

    I'd suggest using a Mac or an Atari ST (I have both).  Vision on the
    Mac and Notator and Cubase on the ST are really excellent MIDI packages
    for sequencing.  And for the most part, currently i only use my
    computers for music. I am biased against PCs of course but I have never
    seen any PC MIDI software like what I've seen on the MAc and Atari. It
    may exist but I haven't seen it.  If you can wait a little longer, the
    rumor is Apple will release some new Macs that are a bit cheaper this
    fall.
    
    Anyway, what you should do is find the software you want and then find
    the hardware.  Take a look at Vision and the new Performer for the Mac
    and Notator and Cubase on the Atari.  I don't know what to recommend
    for PCs.  Anyway, really try out this software.  Do you need notational
    editing?  Real time tyransformations of MIDI data? etc etc etc.  Then
    find the sw that will support your desires and buy it -- then consider
    software.
    
    I'd say skip the laser printer unless you really need it.  You can
    always bring postscript files in and LPS40 or LN03R them.
    
    Anyway, good luck.
    
    Chad
    

    Hey folks, this is great, good reviews
    
    I guess when I made the selection between a MAC and Clone, I was more
    interested in trying to cut down on the number of options for sanity
    reasons. I was also trying to aim for something that was more prevalent
    in the market, not saying that Amiga or Atari are bad, but from my
    investigating, I found that Atari had little dealership in HK, and
    hence made me suspicious of its popularity. In the same vein, Amiga
    tends to be left out of the conversation when I approached all the h/w
    dealers over here. They were very MAC and PC supportive.
    
    Re: .1 Ken
    
    I would like to think that I would be using the machine for other
    things, but primarily it will be for music. I have no real interest in
    games, so that wouldn't be an issue. 
    
    I also want to be sure of what I buy, so that I get the right thing
    first time round. Don't you hate buying something today, and tomorrow
    they bring out something that is twice as better at half the price with
    more options. Yeah, yeah I know, that's technology for you!!!
    
    Re: .2 Bill
    
    As you say, the PC is cheaper and just as capable, hence my quandry. I
    would like to get the laser for music production as well as producing
    documents for business purposes. MIDI toys, hmm, that's one aspect I
    didn't think of. I was mainly thinking of the basic system, before I
    ventured any further. Boy this is true capacity planning!
    
    Re: .3 Tom
    
    As I mentioned above, I'm somewhat nervous about Atari. And in any
    case, I must eliminate something in making a decision, and that was
    done prior to entering my first note. Mind you, I've just turned to
    page 26 on Jul keyboard and staring mein the face is the article "Run
    MAC MIDI software on your Atari Mega". Compatability certainly makes
    decisions harder.
    
    Re: .4 Chad
    
    Now this has given me something to think about. S/W first, then H/W. It
    should have been obvious. What do I want to run should determine what I
    want to run on.
    
    Vision 1.1 looks interesting because it gets pretty good feedback from
    some of the top musicians, and Galaxy looks good because it supports
    the M1 judging by the advertisement. Both these are MAC software.
    Encore supports printing on laser and is suitable for MAC and PC, and
    Passport Mastertracks PRO 4 is really suited to a MAC if you look at
    March edition of Keyboard... aaaarrrghh where does it end??
    
    Let's face it, I think I want a MAC with all the bells and whistles, at
    the price of the PC configuration. If anyone else can add their
    opinion, I would be most grateful.
    
    Lindsay
    

>Let's face it, I think I want a MAC with all the bells and whistles, at
>    the price of the PC configuration. If anyone else can add their
>    opinion, I would be most grateful.
 
This is why you should consider the Amiga. I liked the Mac interface but
hated the 9' black and white screen. I like the MacII, but in no way can justify
the price for my purposes.  The Amiga, in addition to other useful things
like multitasking and ability to do IBM and MAC emulation, has the MAC-like
interface/consistancy and a NICE BIG COLOR screen. The price is in line with
clone prices. MIDI interfaces are cheaper ($60) and screen updates are faster,
due to custom graphics chips (Apple is/was trying to hire someone to create a 
similar blitter chip for a future MAC II). Other pluses include use of 
standard PC printers and modems, and fast SCSI drives.

There are 1 1/2 - 2 million Amigas versus 20?, 30? million PCs sold, so you 
have to look for Amiga dealers, but when you will find one you may be 
impressed.  

(Since this is sounding like a my computer/your computer battle, I'll add
this disclaimer. Yes I know the MAC interface is currently "more" consitent 
and refined.  Yes I know IBMs can have a nice new Window interface too.
Yes I know there are more music software titles for MACs and IBMs. However, 
all you need is one that you like and the Amiga has many very good ones.)


Amiga bigot here,
Dave

    I agree that you're describing an amiga in -.2, but you already
    said you excluded the amiga so I demured.
    Tom

    I was talking to someone today about Atari's presence (or lack of) in
    Hong Kong. My friend assured me that the only reason they were not here
    was the way the Hong Kong market tends to have a habit on copying s/w
    and h/w, and hence their hesistance on entering the market place.
    
    Lindsay-who-hates-making-decisions-when-all-his-previous-arguments-fly-
    the-window.

From what I've heard here in Massachusetts, Atari DOES have a presence
in Austrailia.  Perhaps not as large as MSDOS clones or even MAC, but it
IS there.  Consider this (remember that I am president of an Atari-ST
user's group, so this is a heavily biased recommendation):

- Atari software and hardware tends to feel more like MAC, but is priced
like PC clones.  Makes me smile :-)

- Atari Stacy (Now in stock at the Bit Bucket here in MA) is a LAPTOP
machine with BUILT IN Midi ports and a BACKLIT screen.  The ideal
machine for use on the road, no?  With an INTERNAL 20MB hard drive and
1MB of memory, it's a bargin at (I think) about $2000.  You are, of
course, paying a premium for portability.  The MOST expensive Atari
laptop has an INTERNAL 40 MB hard disk drive and 4 MB of main memory,
and has a list price of about $2900.  (This is the one Bit Bucket has
in stock.)

- All Atari ST's have an 8Mhz 68000 processor, built-in Midi, Serial,
and Parallel ports, and an external DMA device connection that is
easily adapted to accept SCSI devices.

- Atari's CHEAPEST display is a rock solid 70hz non-interlaced 640x400
pixel monochrome tube.  The Amiga has unsurpassed color graphics
capability, but for editing music, you want AT LEAST 640x400, and don't
need color.  You can usually get a 1MB Atari ST system second hand with
a monochrome monitor in the U.S. for about $700.  Add another $500 for a
hard disk, and a couple hundered in Midi software from C-Lab, Passport,
Dr. T's, or Hybrid arts, and you're all set, with enough left in your
budget to buy another synthisizer.  Remember, Atari has Midi built in.

- Atari was the only computer company represented at the latest NAMM show.
(A music equipment show.)

- There are many titles of high quality software available for desktop
publishing, checkbook balancing, spreadsheets, games, time management,
etc., all at prices far below MAC, but with nice, the friendly WIMP
user interfaces (Window/Icon/Menu/Pointer) that MAC users get.

- If you get connected to a local user group, you get unbelievable
support and entheuaism from other Atari users.  The lower volume means
you get more personal attention from software and third party hardware
suppliers.

I know of a few used Atari systems for sale, if you want a second hand
(120V/60hz, U.S. keyboard & ROMs) unit that has been checked out, let
me know.

    Re: AMIGA
    
    I have since reviewed all my KEYBOARD magazines, and found the article
    in June '90 regarding the AMIGA capabilities. Quite impressive, and
    with features that are extremely desirable. This decision is becoming
    more awkward by the day.
    
    I think the best thing I can do, is go out and price all options (that
    is PC, MAC, AMIGA, ATARI) with all desired accessories and compare
    prices, support, availability of s/w for h/w and then buy the damn
    thing.
    
    I'll probably come back in a year, and post my results ;-)
    
    Lindsay

Remember that  the SW is what you are going to be using so check that out first.

Chad

    Hey it's me again, and guess what, I'm still looking and comparing.
    
    Well, August Keyboard came out, and there in print was an article
    regarding the new AMIGA 3000. For functionality it sounds great, for
    cost it sounds fantastic, graphics... well I don't really understand
    PC's and whether there is a need for -8 or -24 bit graphics, if someone
    could inform me of pro's and con's (Tom perhaps you could respond to
    this :-)  )
    
    Does anyone know if this model comes with midi interface builtin.
    Will the software that runs on current models of Amiga, run on the 3000
    
    It is now getting to the situation where I am now comparing Amiga and
    MAC, though I am heavily leaning towards the 3000 now.
    
    What is the best (biassed opinions welcome) to run on the Amiga/MAC for
    
    (1) Sequencing and editing
    (2) Composition
    (3) Notation and printing
    
    While I appreciate there being soooo much software available, names
    that come to mind (after reading numerous notes) are:
    Passport/MasterPro(or is thatMasterTracks)/Cubase/Vision/Finale/Encore
    
    I have a reel-to-reel that I would also like to incorporate into my
    configuration, and while I'm at it, I may as well include my video as
    well, so what kind of additional hardware would I require, and what
    would be the best software to cater for these extras
    
    A lot of questions. I'm sorry, but I must say that you have been really
    helpful. Certainly opened my eyes. 
    
    Lindsay
    
    

    1 bit video is enough for editing music.  Amiga programs typically use
    4 or 8 colors (2 or 3 bits).  16 and 32 are possible on the 3000,
    and even 4096 but not in music applications.
    I don't have any experience with the newest amiga music software, I use
    an old program called Deluxe music, which edits directly in music
    notation, but is not a good sequence recorder and has  other quirks.
    Don't forget Bars and Pipes.  Amiga music s/w is probably as mature as
    that anywhere else, especially since some of the programs are the same,
    ported to the each machine.
    Tom

    Lindsay,
    
    Why don't you post this over in the Amiga Notesfile.  There are folks
    there doing MIDI on Amiga who can help.  BOMBE::AMIGA
    
    A partial answer - 
    1. Amiga doesn't have built in midi. Its about a $60 option
    2. Software which runs on current Amiga's may not run on A3000 it's
       best to check with the individual vendors.  
    
    Frank
    

    Most software that runs on 500s and 2000s should run on a 3000.  Some
    (very) old software written (badly) for the 1000 might be problematic,
    but it's probably problematic for 500s and 2000s as well.
    
    len (obsolete 1000 owner).