Conference napalm::commusic_v1

RE < Note 2269.0 by FIXSR1::WHITTINGTON "Disassembly required" >

	Hmmm...  I've gotten fairly decent trumpet sounds from just about
every kind of synthesis.  I have a killer french horn patch on my TX81Z.  I
suppose it depends on how "realistic" it has to be.  Sampling will get you
a realistic (though somewhat static) trumpet.  But you'd be hard pressed to
buy a sampler for $350, even used.

	As for the other sounds, well, again, it depends how "realistic" you
need them to be.  For violins, FM synthesis (as sold by Yamaha, and a few Korg 
instruments) does a great "chamber" violin (complete with the sound of the bow
scraping across the strings), but is lousy at getting a thick rich string 
section (with the possible exception of a nice DX7 patch I once heard).  You're
better off with either analog or wave-table synthesis for string "pads".  

	Again, my TX81Z has a superb trombone sound (with an automatic 
portamento that lets it slide from note to note when playing legato) and o.k.
flute sounds (with and without the "chiff").  My personal favorites for flutes
is sampled (as found in the U110, U20, etc.)  But I get by with synthetic 
flutes.  

	For piano, there are a number of affordable possibilities now.  Korg's
P3 might do you (that was recently discontinued, but you should be able to find 
one for between $100 and $200).  Sam Ash is blowing out P330's now for $329 - 
great electric piano and good acoustic piano - but you don't get any of the 
other instruments you want.

	I just had a thought - you might want to locate a Korg O3 module.  A
few noters here have one and can describe it better.  It takes cards to expand
the number of sounds it can make.  It might fill your bill and give you extra
money left over.

	One last thought - don't discount the possibility that what you have may
take care of all the sounds you need.  Even if you are not good at programming
sounds yourself, there are plenty of third party sounds available.  The sounds
you get stocked into your synthesizers don't always do the medium justice.  
Which Yamaha box do you have?  I'd think that with a little work, the Poly 800 
and the Yamaha box (FB01?) could take care of 90% of anyone's basic needs.

	Dan

    I think what you'll find is that there are plenty of synths and
    samplers with great trumpet sounds but you'll rarely hear a very
    convincing trumpet part.
    
    The problem is that much of the expression involved in trumpet playing
    arises from variances in technique.  Any one trumpet part may require
    several different "samples" to sound like a real trumpet player:
    
    	o First note (the attack is different when you first start to
    	  blow than when you change notes while blowing)
    
    	o Fall-offs at then end of a note
    
    	o Spitty sounds, smooth sounds
    
    Obviously I'm not very knowledgeable about all the trumpet techniques
    (there was a GREAT article in the Roland newsletter about 9 months
    ago on this however).
    
    But being that most synth or sampler patches can do little more than 
    cross fade between two sounds based on velocity, it means you really
    have to do some editing to get a good trumpet part.
    
    I guess the bottom line is that it's not likely that your going to just
    sit down and play a keyboard and have it sound like a real trumpet
    player.  You have to expect be doing lots of things with velocity,
    mod wheels, stuff like the Ensoniq patch select buttons, etc to get
    that "expression".
    
    And if you think Trumpet is hard, try Sax.

	Expressiveness is a tough one. The Ensoniq VFX and the EPS have
	2 extra buttons down by the pitch wheel that allow you to set up
	variations on the sound > 2 button = 4 variations. Use of these 
	can make the sound come alive. Also, when using pitch bend, listen
	to trumpet & sax players, they tend to slide into thier notes (and
	it's hard to play chords on a trumpet of sax, since they do single
	notes at a time), and there is often perceptable delay between 
	the human members of a horn section when they play thier parts.
	To get the slide in, set your pitch bend to 1 or 2 notes range &
	lightly detune your note before you play it, release the pitch
	bend wheel as you press the note & you'll hear something along
	the lines of what a sax player might be doing. This takes a bit
	of practice & an excessive amount of restraint (don't forget, the
	horn player has to breath). Don't play horn parts like you would
	an organ or piano. They won't sound good if you don't try to play
	in the manner that a horn player might play the parts.

	I use the sampled SAX on a U-110 & with a pitch wheel, volume
	pedal & velicity sensative ESQ-1 keyboard. This works quite
	well for me. It does, however, take lots of practice.

								Jens

    re: use of PB...
    
    Good advise.
    
    I've taken it a bit of a step further. Set the patch up as MONO with
    last note priority and a quick fingered portomento. Set the pitch bend
    to n (I prefer 2) semitones. Then if you want a line to go from E up to
    Bb, play E then *Ab*, and hit the bender to bring it up to Bb. Of
    course, now you have to hold the bender until (a) a break, or (b) a 
    place to bend down....
    
    Edd

RE < Note 2269.4 by WEFXEM::COTE "Bain Dramaged" >

>    I've taken it a bit of a step further. Set the patch up as MONO with
>    last note priority and a quick fingered portomento. Set the pitch bend
>    to n (I prefer 2) semitones. 

	Why do you use both PORT and PB?  Wouldn't one of them do the job?


	Dan

    
     Check out the Casio 640 - nice sound, midi compatable, good
    reproductions/replications - and in the price range you're looking
    at. I'd test "drive" a display model first. Highlands has them for
    about $349.00.

    Port allows me to emulate (haha) not tonguing between notes, just leave
    one finger down until after you hit the next one. The PB allow me to 
    get an effect not unlike overblowing.
    
    Edd

    re: using pitch bend to get slide into a note
    
    Actually I came up with an alternative to using the pitch bend to
    get that "slide" into the note.
    
    I use velocity.
    
    God, how do you go about describing this????
    
    Well you start with an envelope that looks like
    
    +n
    |
    0			L2 -----------------------------
    |			  /
    -n			 /
    		L1	/
    		       T0  T1
    
    You modulate T1 (the time it takes to get from L1 (level 1) to L2)
    INVERSELY with velocity.  Many synths and samplers allow you to
    modulate envelope parameters, usually T1 and L1.  You'll probably
    only get acceptable results if you have a machine with multiple
    velocity response curves.
    
    In my experience you need a velocity curve that looks somewhat like
    the envelope I've drawn above.
    
    Anyway, you play the first note lightly and you basically get a slide.
    Play all the other notes fairly hard and you don't get it.
    
    	db
    
    
    

    When I asked for information I should have mentioned that I am
    comparing what I'm looking for to a YAMAHA DX20?.  I was using a
    breath-controller to mimic the trumpet sound. Actually it gave a
    convencing trumpet sound, but I got tired of people asking me what was
    that thing in your mouth. I felt like I had a pasifier. I am an ex-wind
    player so the bending the pitch was know problem for me. I was just
    hoping I could get the same results with a patch. Actually I was
    comparing the Yamaha DX20? with what I am looking for. The guy will not
    sell it to me, but prefers to let it sit in his house, and wait for me
    to ask to use it for performances at church. Anything comparible to the
    DX series out there. There again I have a KORG Poly 800 with a Yamaha
    sound box (piano,guitar,choir,etc).
    Thanks for all the input, I will have to process all this and start
    calling the mail-order houses for possibly used equipment.
     

	press next unseen if you didn't bring your sense of humor along...











	You know, you can buy a decent horn for a couple hundred bucks...

	John,
	who's_feeling_Janzen-like_this_morning

RE < Note 2269.10 by FIXSR1::WHITTINGTON "Disassembly required" >

	By the DX20?, do you mean DX21?  DX27?

	If you can master a breath controller, you'll probably have the most
expressive synthesized trumpet you're likely to ever find.  It is a difficult
thing to do well, but I have heard people that do it well and it is sensational
(imo).

	Again I have to ask - what Yamaha "sound box" are you refering to?  
Perhaps the EM series units?

	If you're thinking about the DX series, there are many, many versions.
I mentioned my TX81Z, which is a keyboardless "DX synthesizer".  It uses the
4-operator FM technology (as opposed to 6-operater FM), but has more programming
options and better sound (due to being a 12? bit machine rather than the older 
10 bit DX machines).  All the newer Yamaha units use the improved 4-op FM 
technology as found in the TX81Z.  The list is exhaustive... DX11, YS100, YS200,
B200, TQ5, DS55, etc.  These are all basically the TX81Z marketted for different
groups of people (minor functions differ).  The older units are the DX21, DX100,
DX27 and FB01.  In the 6-operator FM technology (markedly better than the older 
4-ops, but marginally better than the newer 4-ops (imo)) include the DX7, TX7, 
DX7II and TX802.

	Dan

    For what it's worth, the Proteus has EXCELLENT horn samples; in fact,
    there's a sample called "Velocity Falls" "automatically" falls off on
    the end (pitchwise) for you, depending on how hard you strike a key. 

    It also responds to a breath controller (actually, any controller). 

    If you get sick of people asking you what's in your mouth, you might
    consider picking up a BC2, which is a lot less obtrusive than the BC1
    (which does resemble a pacifier).  It's similar in design to a headset
    microphone - I have one and like it just fine. 

-b

            <<< DNEAST::SYS$PROD3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]COMMUSIC.NOTE;1 >>>
             -< * * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * * >-
================================================================================
Note 338.35                 Yamaha DX21/DX100 Patches                   35 of 56
JAWS::COTE "115db, but it's a DRY thud..."           43 lines  16-SEP-1987 08:31
                           -< Trumpet Full Of Spit >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       
    	Everytime I use this patch I have an uncontrollable urge to clear
	my throat. This trumpet needs to be emptied!!!

	Edd

	**********************************************************************

				Op1	Op2	Op3	Op4

	Frequency		1.00	1.00	3.14	1.00
	Detune			+3	+3	+3	0
	AR			20	15	13	18
	D1R			31	31	15	5
	D1L			15	15	0	0
	D2R			0	0	0	0
	RR			9	8	8	8
	Level			85	51	59	66
	Rate Scale		1	0	0	1
	Level			0	0	0	0

	PEG Rate 1		99          Algo.	3
   	Level 1	 		46	    Feedback	7
   	Rate 2			99          LFO Wave	Tri
        Level 2	       		50          Speed	35
        Rate 3			0	    Delay	24
       	Level 3			55	    PMD		4
					    AMD         0
					    Sync	Off
					    P Mod Sens	6
				  	    A Mod Sens	0
				  	    E Bias Sens	0
				   	    Key Velo.	0

	Mode		Poly
	PB Rng.		2
	Porta.		Full Time	    Chorus	On
	Porta Time	0		    Transpose	C3
	MW Pitch	0		    Name	Spit Horn
	BC Pitch	0
  	Amp.		0
	Pitch Bias	50
	EG Bias		0

    re: .0
    
    could you post that patch???  I have a DX11, and would like to try
    it (I meant, the mean trumpet sound) -- or was that the one in 338.35??
    
    Thanks!
    
    Bruce Evans

    Sorry for not responding but I have been away from my friendly note
    file. In response to 2269.? I have a Yamaha Sound Expander (thats all
    it says). I never heard of the BC2 tell me more. since I last posted
    the original note I have been doing leg work, see note 2277.
    
    Thanks