Conference napalm::commusic_v1

>    weighted keys, flexibility for MIDI sequencing.  BUT... it appears that with
>various controller/sequencing software that a controller keyboard would be 100%
>redundant. Would a controller keyboard be redundant with PC
>software/interfacing? 
    
    You KNEW I'd be the first to reply..
    
    It's possible you could find a synth with a keyboard action that
    you like, but it's unlikely it could xmit on more than 1 MIDI channel
    at a time.. this is VERY important for live work, maybe not so for studio
    work.   The PC sequencer would take care of the MIDI 'rechannelizing'
    of recorded tracks for you, sending the tracks to selected virtual
    MIDI instruments assigned to separate MIDI channels.    MAKE SURE
    it can do LOCAL OFF !  I.E. the sounds in the synth portion can
    be played from the sequencer while YOU play a NEW keyboard part
    INTO the sequencer, rechannelized to a separate MIDI instrument.
    
    So maybe a solid keyboard with multitimbral synth attached is the 
    way to go..
    
    Mr. Circular Logic (I KNOW what I said yesterday!)

    Keyboard vs. computers and sequencers.  I think you gotta have a good
    controller keyboard, even if you primarily use power-assist.  Weighting
    isn't really required.  You have to have some way of improvising, just
    hacking around until you hear something you like.  This is hard to do
    even with the state of the art in interactive music programs.
    
    	Eirikur
    

    Popular keyboard controllers that I am aware of:
		    MIDI		  Est
	Make        Chans	Pressure  Price		Action
	----------- ------	--------  -----------	--------
	Roland A80	4	channel	  $2795		weighted
	Roland A50	4	poly	  $2295		synth
	Elka ???	?	poly	  circa $2400	weighted
	Yamaha KX88	2	channel   $1500		weighted
	Yamaha KX76	2	channel	  $949 (SamAsh)	synth
	Kawai K8000	2	channel	  $1395		weighted
	Kurzweil	4?	poly	  $2300		weighted
	  MIDIboard

    These are controllers only.

    If you're looking for a 'workstation' type board (keyboard, sequencer
    and SGU all-in-a-box) then consider one of these: 

				Sequncr 
Make		SGU Typ	Voices	Capacty	Action	Pressur	Keys 	Price
---------------	-------	------	-------	------	-------	----	-----
Ensoniq EPS	sampler	12-20	80K	synth	poly	61	$2300
Korg M1		wavetbl	16	~7K	synth	channel	61	$1750	no disk
Roland W30	sampler	16	16K	synth	channel	61	$2295
    

    That oughta give you a start.

-b

>    < Note 2057.2 by KALLON::EIRIKUR "Hallgr�msson, ACA and CDA Prod. Mgr." >
>                              -< Get a keyboard! >-
>I think you gotta have a good controller keyboard, even if you primarily 
>    use power-assist.  
>    ....This is hard to do
>    even with the state of the art in interactive music programs.

    Eirikur, I think Steve's dilemma is not 'whether keyboard', but
    'dedicated MIDI controller keyboard vs. keyboard-on-synth'.
    
    karl

          <<< Note 2057.3 by DYO780::SCHAFER "Brad - back in Ohio." >>>
                          -< some ideas, from memory >-

>	Kurzweil	4?	poly	  $2300		weighted
>	  MIDIboard

Brad,

I know these were approximations of pricing, but I got my MIDIboard for $1500
by haggling at Acton Music. That was about a year ago. The price has dropped.

>Ensoniq EPS	sampler	12-20	80K	synth	poly	61	$2300

I got mine for $1795 at Union. Better deals are probably available now.
I got both for $3300 rather than $4600 (a signicant difference, no? 8^))

Suggest trying Caruso's for Kurzweil prices and Union Music for EPS prices.

dave

Also, Sam Ash earlier this year quoted me a $1295 for KX88 and $1250ish for
the Kawai M8000.

Chad

    Also, available on the "used" market are Oberheim Xk controllers:
    
    channel pressure, 3 zone/ 3 midi channels w/programmable overflow, 
    	programmable built-in musically-useful arpeggiator, most every
    	controller programmable.
                                               
    
    	About $450 used.
    
    -Bill

Not that anyone cares, but the Elka line should look like this:

	Make        Chans	Pressure  Price		Action
	----------- ------	--------  -----------	-------
	Elka MK88	6	poly	  $1800		weighted


At least that's what it was when I bought it.

Steph

    YES, the Oberheim XK is a VERY nice controller.  My friend
    has one, and it never ceases to amaze me.  One of these days
    I'll pick one up...
    
    I was suppoed to get one from the Want-Ad for $300, but the
    guy decided to accept an offer for his whole setup, and the
    deal fell through...
    
    _JOhn_

    Thanks for the corrections, guys.
    
    Regarding the Xk ... it certainly has lots of features:
    
      o	velocity sensitive (and I think release velocity, too)
      o	61 synth keys
      o	every controller imaginable
      o	paddles for pitch-bend/mod section (yay!)
    
    It's not without its faluts, though.  It's not made anymore, there were
    several firmware problems that had to be addressed by replacement ROMS
    (Andy Seigel - what's the buzz?), the touch was (IMO) lousy, even for
    unweighted ... kinda like the old OB-Xas or OB-8s, which made you feel
    like you had arthritis when you were playing them.
    
    Perhaps the worst oversight was its inability to send/receive SYSEX
    dumps of its setups (up to 99 - a heckuva lot of repunching if it loses
    its brains).  I don't think replacement ROMS ever addressed this.
    
-b

    V1.4 is the current firmware.  I called them last month to get some
    keys to replace some that I broke. (Ouch!)   I'd like to see sysex
    supported myself.   I'm thinking of getting one of the outboard
    Perf/X boxes to give me more splits and do sysex (if they do sysex...)
    
    	Eirikur
    

While I appreciate all the kind hearts applying their knowledge and experience
to my question, I feel the main point/ my original question has not been 
addressed and this note has digressed into a discussion on controllers. Perhaps
I didn't articulate the question very well. 

While I was generally questioning the value/features of controllers, my real 
question was this:

	If one owns a powerful sequencer (i.e. PCs/Atari's/etc) don't the
power/features of a controller become 95% redundant... GIVEN, that I don't
require the flexibility of rapid live performance loading? In other words,
why pay for the features of a controller when I plan on buying a PC soon
that will give me nearly all the features that a controller can provide?

So... in my quest for a weighted keyboard that will give me GOOD entry level
features... I've made a selection and have sent the check to Sweetwater Sound
in Ft. Wayne IND./ $1750.00 


Product:
Kurzweil K1000-SE Keyboard

Type:
Sample player/synthesizer

Keyboard:
76-key, E to G, weighted velocity sensing action, aftertouch

Performance Controls:
Assignable wheels, footswitches and Data Entry Slider

Features:
50 soundfiles, multilayer programming, extensive sound processing and control
features: 16 preset alternate tunings; performance banks; multi-timbral MIDI
operation; 179 programs, including 115 ROM presets, and 64 user programmable
RAM (allowing for split/layered/zoned sound with effects);

Essentially, this unit is a K250 'greatest hits' player with additional 
functionality. It looks as though that this keyboard is exactly what I'm looking
for in terms of usable functionality and future expandibility. It appears that
there is probably no functionality that the K1000 doesn't have (that I'm
interested in) that can't be added later via 3rd party or Kurzweil.

Any comments will be appreciated...


	-Steve

    re: .12
    
    >>> If one owns a powerful sequencer (i.e. PCs/Atari's/etc) don't the
    >>> power/features of a controller become 95% redundant... GIVEN, that I
    >>> don't require the flexibility of rapid live performance loading? In
    >>> other words, why pay for the features of a controller when I plan on
    >>> buying a PC soon that will give me nearly all the features that a
    >>> controller can provide?

    My reading of this is you're wondering about the need for a
    bells-and-whistles controller given one can tweak just about every MIDI
    message there is in a powerful sequencer.  If that's the correct
    interpretation, I'd answer with a "yes but"...
    
    Although it's possible to handcraft the exact passage you want with a
    powerful sequencer (I use Master Tracks Pro on the Mac), it would too
    boring and too time consuming for ME to even attempt this.  (If others
    want to, that's fine with me.)  I for one am happiest palying my simple
    little piano parts on a piano-ish thing.  I'd love to play my guitar
    parts on a guitar-ish controller and enter the drum parts on a drum-ish
    controller too but my spending pattern has not given me this luxury
    yet.
    
    I am too lazy to even enter in my sequences on a non-velocity
    controller to get the notes and then edit the velocity.  So you can
    imagine that I'm too lazy to use the step editing tools MTP provides to
    build up a whole part.  I'd rather play in as complete a part as I can
    and then maybe "fix it up" with the microscopic tools available in
    sequencers.  Even though this requires redundant features in my
    controllers and my sequencers, I feel that I need both to have fun
    during the composing/recording cycle.
    
    I guess this is one area where "the right tools for the right job"
    results in different people having different ideas about what the best
    tools are and even what the job is.  Personally, I want them all (and
    my bank account can attest to that!
    
    Hope this helps and isn't too rambling.
    
    - John -

    Steve,
    
    Given your intent to purchase a fully functional sequencer package
    for PC/MAC/ATARI etc., I agree that the K1000 is a solid first piece
    of gear.  Did you ascertain that it will do 'local off', i.e. allow
    the Sequencer to play multiple parts in the 1000, while either playing
    the current part live (while recording into the sequencer) or
    conversely play the part into the sequencer, which reassigns its
    MIDI channel and plays the current part in the 1000 just like already
    recorded parts ... is that clear ?  As the 1000PX has no keyboard,
    I'm not clear how or if the 'local off' issue works on the K1000.
    
    How long before you receive the K1000 ?
    
    karl

    
    In a word... yes! It does feature local off. Your question concerning
    the 1000 PX is justified... but it turns out that the PX is not
    exactly a K1000 minus the keyboard (ostensibly). i.e. What the K1000
    features that the 1000 PX doesn't:
    
    	o Data Entry slider
    	o Front panel buttons
    	o I think there's more...
    
    
    I'm in wait mode as I just sent the check Saturday. I figure less
    than two weeks. Its a pretty exciting toy to be waiting for... I
    feel like I've made a good selection and feel that the K1000 for
    the price could well be a top choice for many who are interested
    in entry level MIDI/controller/SYNTH/weighted keys/etc. Just so
    this doesn't seem like all BLUE SKY, here's a quote from Electronic
    Musician/April 1988:
    
    	K1000:
    	The left-hand controls are the usual  Kurzweil mutations that
    	can't decide whether to be bad paddles or merely substandard
    	wheels.(Just what every keyboardist needs, performance controls
    	with an identity crisis!) It's hard to believe that Bob Moog
    	actually works for Kurzweil and didn't throw himself bodily
    	in front of the fork lift truck screamin "No! Stop! Those poor
    	musicians... for God's sake, replace those wheels!" About the
    	only good thing about them is that the "Mod wheel is a center-off
    	dual-function, bidirectional controller that can do the job
    	of two wheels ( with your choice of MIDI controller numbers).
    
    
Remember, when discussing the K1000 that the first generation is still
    stocked out there. I think its the K1000-A?(something). THe first
    pass at this keyboard did not include many features including
    aftertouch.
    
    I bought the K1000-SE which did not include the additional sound
    block module (I think known as K1000-ext... where its installed
    at the factory. On the other hand, there is yet another model number
    that represents the module installed at the dealer.)
    
    Though the sound block has a fantastic electric bass and fantastic
    Rhodes and drums. As I have a nice Roland drum machine I decided
    to forego the sound module.
    ALSO...
    
    See note numbers:
    	724.13
    	1066.3
    	1066.8
    
    for further K1000 info

RE: .10 and Xk

Sorry for spacing on this note.  There were two major problems with the Xk.
First was the power supply (wall bug) connection was very bad in the first
run of the machine, causing the connection to, er, go away, like in the
middle of a performance?  Well, they fixed that and issued new wall bugs.

The second problem was a hardware/firmware problem.  This had to do with the
paddles, particularly the pitch bend paddle having difficulty finding "0", and
somewhat randomly sending what appeared to be master tune changes to some
SGUs!  Talk about a headache!  Initially, I thought all of my stuff was going
out of tune.  Anyway, a new set of paddles and (I believe) a ROM change
fixed that problem.  Feature-wise, it was pretty far ahead of its time, and
I never had a problem with it.

Brad is also correct in that there is NO way to get stuff out of it.  No
cassette interface (which was promised but not delivered), no SySEX.  A
pencil and paper are a requirement.  And, as far as the feel, it's about like
an OB8 with the addition of velocity and channel pressure, so I guess that's
like the Matrix keyboards.  very synth-like, which I liked for a long time,
and still do, in some cases.

RE: weighted keyboards.  I've heard prices of < 2K on the A80 from Caruso
and Wurlies in Framingham.  Sam ash has a used KX76 for 895 I think.  Caruso
has a used KX88, in a flight case for about 1400.

ps re: earlier notes re: the Voyce LX9 controller add-on.  I think VOyce is
out of business.  At the very least, they've moved and I]m having trouble
finding them.

andy

    ...and ever since Andy sold the Xk to me, it's been behaving perfectly
    well.  :-)
    
    	-Bill

Yea!


8^)

Does anyone in the Marlboro, MA area know where I can find a KX76 or KX88 for
a demo?  I haven't seen them in any of the local stores.  Would anyone who
owns one of these be willing to let me demo it?  I am most interested in the
keyboard feel.

Thanks,
Jim

	Jim,

		I've got a KX88 but I'm up in Nashua, NH.  If you don't mind 
	making the trip, I don't mind giving you a demo....

	Dan

Not sure how weigted it is (keys appear like DX7 keys), but a
company called Bohm has a small ad in this month's Keyboard for
a 92 !! key controller!

andy

    I'm seriously considering a K1000SE.  Seems they're selling for $1495
    everywhere now.  Seems like almost TOO good a deal to me.  Anyone know
    the reason for this?  Can anyone speculate if this is just during the
    Xmas season, is Kurzweil going under, will they increase or decrease in
    price after the holidays?  I don't think I want to pass this one up.
    
    Thoughts anyone?
    dc

    I have also heard from a dealer that the list price of a 1000PX +
    has gone down to $1495 or so (not sure what it was before). I was
    thinking about getting one of these, and am wondering if I should
    wait for a further drop, or go for one now. That being the list
    price, I wonder what I could get it for. I've had quotes within
    the last month at around $1,200.
    
    Bill