Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    YEs do tell me also...
    I have a Jupiter 8 and a couple of years ago whe I got it, it was
    "THE!" thing to have now I havent heard or seen it.  whahappens
    to em...
    do the go to the great icemachine heaven in the sky or what?

    Actually, analog is making a comeback.  I seem to recall articles
    in both MUSICIAN and KEYBOARD indicating that having an analog synth
    is a good idea to round out a rig.  That's why I have interest in
    it and am willing to shell out a few bucks if I find something that
    will fill that bill well enough (like maybe a Matrix-1000 if the
    price comes down a little more).  
    
    Steve

       The experts can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that
       a Rhodes electric piano was used in Riders On The Storm (by
       Fleetwood Mac?). Also, Say Say Say by Paul McCartney & Michael
       Jackson.  Others will be able to supply many more examples.

       An "old" sound I am particularly fond of is the Wurlitzer
       electric piano, which I learnt (from either this conference or 
       MUSIC) was used by Super Tramp. (e.g Logical Song - which I am 
       addicted to!) There was a brief discussion about the possibility
       that the Roland RD range of digital pianos emulates the Wurlitzer,
       did anyone find out if this is correct?

       Greg.

    Riders On The Storm was done by The Doors... and it was a Rhodes.
    
    Wanna hear a B-3? Listen to jazz organist Jimmy Smith. If ya can
    get past his arrogance, he's a master of the instrument.
    
    Edd

    
    Well, while I don't *see* these instruments much anymore, I still
    *hear* them.  
    
    For instance, while a keyboardist may use something else on tour
    for an organ, in astudio where a B-3 is available, he'll probably
    use it.  Many studio players still use Mini Moogs, although usually
    MIDIfied, because they still like the sounds it puts out.

    However, for a live player who would like an instrument that doesn't
    weigh two tons, doesn't drift out of tune under the spotlights,
    and can switch between sounds in less than a second, these older
    instruments just aren't worth the trouble.  
    
    Also, nowadays you can buy one instrument for under $1000 that can
    emulate the three mentioned, plus do strings, horns, etc.  In 1972 a
    MiniMoog cost over $2000, a B3 was also in the thousands, and a Rhodes
    about $800.  Now, considering inflation... 
    
    BTW, back around 1985, just before MIDI exploded (not *that* long ago)
    I was in a top 40 band and our keyboard man had a Hammond (M
    something?), a Rhodes, a Mini Moog and an ARP Omni.  So the decline of
    these instruments has been rather sudden. 
    
     

    
    About songs with those axes:
    
    Hammond organ:
    
    As mentioned, Booker T. and the MGs and Jimmy Smith
    Also anything by Keith Emerson of ELP, Traffic and Spencer Davis
    Group with Steve Winwood, Rick Wakeman of Yes, etc.
    
    Mini Moog:
    
    Jan Hammer with Jeff Beck and Mahavishnu, ELP doing "Lucky Man",
    Chick Corea with Return to Forever
    
    Fender Rhodes:
    
    almost any jazz fusion record made during the 1970s

    
    Right!!!!  
    
     	It turns out that the sounds I have heard on various records
    and have fallen in love with and I am constantly (unsuccesfully)
    trying to emulate are actually these instuments I keep hearing
    about!!!!
    	"The Logical Song",   that sound is GREAT!!
    
    Any idea what Pink Floyd used to use ala. Set the Controls, One
    of these days etc. 
    Come to that any idea what they (-Rog) are using now?? Especially
    on their recent tour (AWESOME!!).
    
    Jason.

    
    Nothing sounds like a Hammond. I haven't heard any synth, sampling
    or otherwise, be able to sucessfully emulate a Hammond with a big
    Leslie. Not yet, anyways.
    
    songs:
    
    Whiter Shade of Pale....Procol Harum
    anything by the Allman Brothers...Dreams, Whipping Post
    
    CdH
    

    
    	If you really want to hear the big Hammonds then listen to some
    early Deep Purple.  John Lord used (and still does) give them a real
    work out.

    
    Early Pink Floyd used Lowrey organs.  By the time of "Meddle" and
    "Dark Side" they had added on the VCS3 synthesizer (sold here in the
    US as the Putney).
    
    Some other UK bands that favored the Lowrey sound were Caravan and
    Soft Machine.
    

    jan Hammer played Rhodes exclusively on John McLaughlin's 'Inner
    Mounting Flame' album.. one'o'my alltime faves.

    
    Keith Emerson and Rick Wakeman used Hammond C-3s not B-3s - 
    subtle difference.
    
    Y'all forgot Mellotrons. -moody blues, Yes, etc. strings, flutes.
    
    Plenty of decent Hammond clones. Y-word, Korg, etc. Not many good
    Leslie sound-alikes.
    
    Also RMI pianos - Wakeman used one - it had a harpsichord sound.
    
    /pjh

    Anyone that wonders why he never sees the old instruments (Rhodes,
    Hammond B3, etc...) has obviously never carried one to a gig!
    For a long time there I was convinced that in order for anything
    to be billed as "portable" it need only have a handle on it somewhere.
    
    There were many good gigs that I played, everyone in the band real
    good friends... until it was time to pack up. "Anyone mind helping
    me with the Rhodes?" I'd ask. All of a sudden I'd feel like a total
    stranger with some rare and contagious disease.
    
    I agree you can't beat the old instruments for sound BUT I'll settle
    for the sound of my EPS minus the backache anyday!
    
    
    					Mark who-used-to-haul-a-Rhodes
    

    According to an article about Hammond I read awhile back the only
    difference between a C-3 and a B-3 is the cabinet.
    
    Anyway, another classic sound is the Farfisa organ.   I'm not really
    sure, but I think the Doors used them a lot, and I think it's what's
    on "Light My Fire".
    
    I never got into Farfisa.
    
    On synthetic Hammond patches.  I have one ESQ-1 patch that for ONE
    particular setting of the Mod wheel is indistinguishable from
    a Hammond (sounds real).  Everyone has their "bread and butter"
    patches/samples/etc that they go back to, and that one is #2
    for me behind the Roland Electric Piano I (Rhodes) sound.
    
    The mod wheel position that it sounds good on is all the way on.
    It gives you one of the many "screamin" hammond/leslie sounds.
    
    Unfortunately, to really replace a Hammond, you need something that
    acts just like the Leslie switch.   Many synths are architecturally
    incapable of doing that because they don't allow you to modulate
    the speed of the LFO's.  Even the ESQ-1 which has one of the most
    flexible architectures (nearly ANYTHING can be modulated by nearly
    ANYTHING) does not provide that.
    
    Oddly enough, I think every Hammond sample I've heard was pretty bad
    and not as good as many synths are capable of.  I find myself
    at a loss to come up with any rationale explanation for that.
    
    	db

    
    
    In that case maybe with a bit more experience I should be able to
    get a decent hammond sound as on the M1 i can add an internal effect
    called rotary speaker...it sounds just like you are whirling your
    amp around your head!!
    
    Anyone care to help on programming the M1????? ;-)
    
    Jason.
    	

    > Hammond sample...bad...
    
    I've got one that is fairly good, but I agree with you. (!)
    
    I think a major reason is the *sampled* leslie, causing all the
    notes to modulate at a different rate...
    
    Edd 

    
    
    Steve Winwood's solo records feature his individual style of
    mini/polymoog playing. 
    
    Stanlet Clark's 'Schooldays' album is unremarkable EXCEPT for the
    minimoog solos by (George Duke?).
    
    Richard.

    
    and to further triumph the leslie - not a phase shifter alive that
    sounds as good as a strat thru a leslie!
    
    				bs

    
    
    Oh yeah and there's the CS80 on Bruford's solo album 'one of a kind'
    (think that's the one -- red cover -- Alan Holdsworth on gittar,
    Dave Stewart? on keys).
    
    Who can come up with the best blast off a Jupiter 8?
    
    Richard 

    re .17 
    
>    Stanlet Clark's 'Schooldays' album is unremarkable EXCEPT for the
>    minimoog solos by (George Duke?).
    
    Is a 'Stanlet' a small Stan ?? This could be why the album was called
    'Schooldays' :-)

    Does anyone know what Rick Wakeman used to use in his Yes days - I'm
    sure that Mellotrons/Hammonds figured in Yes's sound (come to think
    of it, all the 'pomp rock' bands seemed to use these 'old' sounds)

    Nostalgically yours,

    Derek.

    RE: B-3 samples.... (plug for Mike Diorio)
    
        I got a B-3 sample disk that Mike Diorio made himself off of
    his B-3. It is sampled 'dry' (i.e. no leslie). You MUST have an
    outboard leslie simulator...but it sounds awsome! The best one on the
    disk is Kieth Emerson's classic sound with a little overdrive/keyclick
    /and percussion on the 5th. It sounds just like the real thing with
    outboard leslie thingydoo. One of the other samples is the B-3 with
    all drawbars drawn full. What a thick sound! When I first used this
    disk I thought that the key contacts on my Mirage were rusted! The
    keyclick sounds so real....probably the best part of the sample!
                                                      
    just my 3� ..
    
    Frank
    

    
    Wakeman did use Hammond organs (C3 I believe), Mellotrons (two), an RMI
    electric piano as was mentioned before, Minimoogs (two), and a
    Steinway grand piano. On Six Wives of Henry the 8th, he also used
    an ARP Oddysey. Later on (late 70s) he used something called a
    Birotron. I don't really know what that was. Anybody know?
    
    Mike D

    
    Check's in the mail Frank!
    
    
    Mike D  

    The Birotron, which suffered crib-death and never became a real
    product, was a Mellotron replacement using a bank of 8-track cartridge
    transports.  Cheap, stock parts, easy to swap sounds (easy splits,
    too!).  Brainchild of one Steve Biro.  I didn't even know one was made.
    This comes from some ancient Wakeman interview.
    
    	Eirikur
    

Wakeman used 4 or 5 Birotrons on the Tormato tour.   He also used
the RMI KC-II, the Polymoog (of course), and a prophet V.

I still have a suitcase Rhodes from 1976.  A great instrument for
practicing at home, a lead weight for gigging.  As was my
Mellotron,  the Wurlitzer, etc...

RE:  - a few, by Umma Gumma, Richard Wright was using
a Farfisa Combo-compact.  There's lots of Rhodes, Hammond, and
Wurlitzer scatted all over PInk Floyd albums.  Also, for an extra
dose of Minimoog/Arp solina (string ensemble), wish you were here
is the place to go.  Shine on You crazy diamond and Welcome to
the machine.

I'll echo what others have said; the primary motivation for
not using these live is that you can get one machine to do
them all, reasonably well, for live purposes.  I still use
a Hammond in the studio, but live, a Mirage/DX7 layer is
just fine.

ciao,
andy

    
    Thanks Eirikur, for the info on Birotrons. I thought, with the -tron
    suffix, that it was some kind of Mellotron. Sounded much the same
    too. Guess that's why!
    
    Mike D

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    Don't forget the old home-brew CMOS divider based synths.
    note assignment algorithms are unecessary, because
    mine can play 60 notes at once forever (with my later power supply
    design ;-).  Try THAT on your Kurzweil 1000.  
    I've never heard anything flange better, with harmonics
    to 1MHz ;-) (I don't actually remember 4000 CMOS rise times).
    It never goes out of tune (unless I flip the quarter-tone switch); 
    I've played in a museum and at a college outdoor concert.  
    
    When I sell my piano, it'll be all I have to play.
    
    it's from that old don lancaster article in radio electronics.
    Tom

    
    Farfisa examples
    
    "96 Tears" ? and the Mysterians
    "She Pays the Rent" Lyres
    
    
    When I saw ELP at the Yale Bowl Keith Emerson appeared to be using
    a C3 with 4 stacked Leslies, the biggest ones in wooden cabs, not
    the 'portable' combo cabs. He threw a smaller Hammond (L100?) off
    the front of the stage during a solo...what an effect.
    
    Hammond also made a 'Porta B' that was an attempt to make the hauling
    around part easier. There were also companies who would modify your
    Hammond by splitting the cabinet into parts, to make it easier to
    tote around.
    
    CdH
    

    
    
    We could go in to a long diatribe about fork-in Farfisa's but most
    of you have heard it before. 
    
    Definitive Hammond track is Gimme Some Luvvin (Spencer Davis) 1965.
    
    Definitive Rhodes is ( Can't think of one) .......
    
    					Paul. 

A good phased Rhodes is on "Minute by Minute" by the Doobs.
    
    Another good Rhodes is on Steely Dan's "Goucho".
    
    Richard.

    Re: .28
    
    I think Jeff Conolly of the Lyres would be upset having his Vox
    Continental organ mistaken for a lowly Farfisa...

    
    I believe 96 Tears (? and the Mysterians) was also a VOX Continental
    organ. Actually, a lot of times when you think you're hearing a
    Farfisa, you're really hearing a VOX Continental. It was THE standard
    keyboard to use back then. 
    
    Mike D

    
    
    Definitive VOX conti track is  .........
    
    
    "House of the Rising Sun"   Animals (Alan Price)..
    
    				Paul.

    
    Sorry about the VOX/Farfisa screwup. I've never seen ?... and I
    saw the Lyres so long ago, I can't remember what he was playing.
    The sounds are remarkably similar, to my ears.
    
    re: Spencer Davis
    
    I saw them on the Gary Collins morning show recently. No Hammond...
    they were using a Korg M1. Not a bad imitation, but it sounded like
    one.
    
    CdH
    

    
    Re - 1
    
    Spencer Davis split up long long ago....
    Spencer himself may be gigging with a new band.
    Stevie Winwood wouldn't lower himself to an M1....
    Witness the superb multi-moog(I think) on "Arc of a Dancer"
                                          
    And as for good old Muff...
    
    				Paul.

RE: .-1

"Arc of a Diver", but who's checking...?  8^)  But I'm pretty sure you're
right and it's a Multimoog.  I think I recall him doing Moog ads around that
time.

More definitives: rhodes - Freeway Jam, solo in Black Cow from Aja...
		  clavinet - Tank by ELP

andy

re: back a few

	Emerson used L-100 series beatup organs for show. He had all sort of 
	toys... 

    Ahhhh the Putney VCS3, with the pin-board... and the joystick... and no
    keyboard whatsoever.  My first introduction to matrix synthesis.
    
    Wonderful machine!  Never needed tuning- because it wasn't tempered
    in any sense of the word!  
    
    Speaking of matrix synths, the Oberheim matrix machines can modulate
    the frequency of an LFO from a ramp or envelope generator. You just
    need an Oberbox, DB.  :-) 
    
    

    Here's something that you could do with a Farfisa that you can't do
    on any state of the art synth that I know of....

    I used to walk in front of the keyboard players Farfisa (back in about
    1970), and hold my guitar near the back plate. The pickups on the
    guitar would recieve the oscillator transmissions (I guess that the
    Farfisa was badly sheilded), and depending on how I waved my guitar,
    I got the raw sounds (sounded like the middle octaves primarily),
    somewhat like a Theramin would give you. Great Sci-Fi Spaceship sound.
    Not the most useful of effects, but a unique interaction.

							    Jens

    Those Farfisas were really amazing.  There was an LC occillator for
    each top octave note.  You tuned it via turning a slug in the coil. 
    With a non-ferrous screwdriver, unless like me you used the
    trial-and-guess method.   I still think the keyboard action was really
    nice--very low travel--extremely nonstandard.
    
    	Eirikur
    
    
    	

    	My fondest memory of old gear is definitely the Hammond/Leslie.
    Deep Purple		"Child in Time" sticks out.
    Uriah Heep		"Salisbury", "Gypsy" 
    Jimmy Smith		"Mac the Knife" [no Leslie]
    (early) Yes		various. I always rated Banks as a better Hammond 
    			player than Wakeman, although the latter was
    			better technically.
    The Peddlers	"My way", "In the mood". 
    
    	Anyone remember the unique effect achieved by slowing/speeding
    the Leslie at appropriate chord changes ?  Especially with the lower
    two drawbars (16', 5 1/4') pulled out. Ahh. I gave up long ago
    attempting to emulate this effect on synths. 
    I think that the effect centred around the fact that the (top) horn
    speeded-up/slowed-down much faster than the (bottom) bass baffle.
    Lovely.
    Jim Burke
    

    A B-3 player I used to work with took the top off his Leslie cabinet, and
    painted the horns and baffles with black and yellow stripes.
    
    It always caused a sensation at gigs, especially when he changed
    speeds. Of course, in 1969, everything was considered "far out, man".
    
    Danny W.