Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Wasting a lot of bandwidth.  Do you save your sequences beside your
    favorite movies?
    

    Actually, videotape can be less expensive than audio cassette.
    
    I record in Beta III onto L750 tape that I never pay more than $4
    for.  This gives me 3.5 hours at $4.
    
    I pay about $2.50 for my C-90s.  It takes 2 1/3 C-90s to store
    what I can store on one L750.
    
    So cost of 3.5 hours:
    
    	Beta L750 approx. $4
        Cassette  approx  $6
   

    On VHS Hifi you can pack 6 hours onto that $4 tape, but I'm not
    sure what happens to the audio quality in the slowest VHS speed.
    On Beta, there isn't much difference between Beta II and Beta III.
    
    The COMMUSIC III tape is being mastered on a Beta HIFI VCR.
    
    	db

Now how about comparing the cost of a Hi-fi VCR to the cost of Edd's
$40 data dump cassette deck from Radio Shack...

Todd.

    To be fair, we must include the $3.00 for the chrome cassette I
    save all the data on. I'm still on the first cassette and must have
    100's of sequences (with short 'voice overs' preceeding them) on
    the one tape.
    
    It may not be fast but it's cheap as hell...
    
    Edd

    Does your $40 cassette also give you the 'added value' of watching
    movies in HiFi?
    
    I didn't buy my VCR for the sole purpose of making audio recordings.
    That was just gravy.

    	db

    Nope, ya got me there Dave...
    
    ...but can you put your VCR in your hip-pocket???
    
    Edd  :^)

    Nope, but then I can't fit my ESQ-1 in my hip-pocket either.
    
    Given that, I think I'd be better off with a $30 walkman than with
    a $40 data dumper.
    
    	db who-has-a-$40-radio-shack-data-dumper-for-his-RZ-1

    I know this is an old topic, but I seem to recall that the VHS-HIFI
    had some problems. I'm not positive on this but I think the S/N
    ratios are pretty bad. I know the dynamic range is real high (>85
    db). Any comments?
    
    pcv

    I'm also looking around for a quality stereo mixdown medium, and
    have been considering VHS Hifi.. anyone out there with any input
    for us ??
    
    karl

    Wait for DAT.
    
    Write to Walter Yetnikoff, president of CBS Records, and tell him
    that if they do that stupid copy code thing you'll never buy another
    CBS record.
    
    As far as I know, the S/N for VHS HiFi approaches CD quality.  I
    have not heard any rumblings about poor S/N.
    
    len.
    

    If all you're looking to use this thing as is a mixdown medium,
    I would recommend Beta Hi-Fi over VHS Hi-Fi.  Beta Hi-Fi starts
    at around $300, maybe less if you look hard.
    
    There is one VHS Hi-Fi VCR that can occasionally be found in that
    price range, the Emerson VCS 966.  I have one.  In general, all
    the low end VHS HiFi's I've heard have had unacceptable levels of
    noise for a mastering deck.  You should listen for yourself.
    
    Anyway, for a decent VHS Hi-Fi deck, you should expect to pay around
    $700.  The Beta Hi-Fi's are fairly good throughout the price range.
    
    However, if you are also going to use this as a VCR, in most cases
    you'll want the VHS over the Beta.  The key problem with Beta is
    that its very hard to find places that rent Beta tapes.
    
    	db - who also frequents the VIDEO notesfile

    Those of you that know me know that my thing is cassette albums.
    I'm working on another, should be very nice when done.. my setup
    includes two good but old Nak cassette dex with Dol'B' only,
    a Fostex (how tired you are of hearing about it!) and an old TEAC
    3340 in nice shape. Also an excellent old TEAC Dolby outboard unit.
    
    I'd like to make a sequenced mixdown master for cassette dups..
    I balk at buying a half-track, though it could be spliced to properly
    sequence the pieces, because it's a single-purpose machine with
    a limited future. DAT isn't here yet and is bound to be $$$$.
    A VCR might give the S/N ratio I need, but it's not spliceable 
    (is that a word?).. 
    
    A question about mixing to VCR (any flavor).. I understand that
    unlike audio decks, VCR's take a few seconds to come up to speed
    and to switch into record mode.. true ? I'm concerned about the
    time gap between pieces on the tape, remember this will be the
    duplication master (or source for a dup master) for cassette albums,
    and the time/space between pieces can screw up the timing for
    an album side.
    
    Any comments on switching in/out of record mode on a VCR ?
    
    thanks. karl

    It takes a few seconds to load the tape and spin up the heads from
    the STOP state of a VCR.
    
    However, if you START/RECORD, record silence for a few seconds, and
    then PAUSE, the tape stays wrapped around the drum and the heads
    continue to spin.  It takes only a tenth of a second or so for the tape
    to come up to record speed out of PAUSE.  Consider- when you pause
    the tape while recording a show for your tapelibrary, how long does
    it take to stop/start it with the pause button?
    	
    Note- you should not stay in the PAUSE state longer than absolutely
    necessary, as tape and head wear will occur.  A few minutes is fine.
    Most decks will automatically drop out of PAUSE into STOP long before
    the tape or heads take any significant damage.                      
    
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I heard a rumor that SONY (manufacturers of DAT machhines) bought
    CBS Records from CBS Inc. recently (and hence is now Zitnikoff's
    boss).  Any confirmation?  (and yes, I have no respect whatsoever
    toward Zitnikoff, nor any person who works for Zitnikoff, having 
    dealt with him and his underlings. _Spinal_Tap_ was accurate satire.) 
     

    re .13 thanx Bill.
    
    re Sony-CBS rumor.. yes, Sony DID buy CBS. DAT notch chip futures
    uncertain.. film at 11

    Yes, Sony has bought CBS Records (not CBS), but has said publically that
    they will allow CBS Records full independence.  That sounds as if
    they're taking a "hands off" approach regarding the DAT/copycode
    "controversy", but I'm hard pressed to believe they'd let a wholly
    owned subsidiary dictate to them about technology.  CBS can go ahead
    and notch their product, as long as the machines don't have those
    damned chips in them.
    
    What *really* irks me is that "artists" like Quincy Jones have come
    out in support of copycode chips.
    
    len.
     

    Karl,
    
    This ain't a problem.  Commusic III was mastered on a VCR.  Did
    you hear any problems at the beginning of songs?
    
    What I did is press record/play and immediately hit pause before
    the tape moved at all.  Then I turned on the cassette player and
    'unpaused' the VCR about 2 seconds before the music came on.  This
    was plenty of time to get the tape moving.
    
    This was done on a Sony SL-2700 (Beta).  I'm pretty sure (but 100%
    sure) that you can do this and get it to work right for just about
    any VCR.
    
    Assuming you can live with gaps at least as long as a second or
    two, there's no problem.  If you're trying to do very fine edits,
    you can't do this pratically with a normal deck.  There are decks
    with editing features that allow this though.  They run into the
    bigger bucks obviously, but I don't think you'll need that.
    
    	db
    
    

    thanks, Bill and Dave.
    
    It sounds like the record/pause/go sequence allows a predictable
    intertune gap.. like deterministic.. sounds fine.
    
    Any fine editing would be done on 8track.. except if in the middle
    of a piece would screw up any MIDI sync track.. ah well, another
    topic.
    
    Next: frontend PCM unit or direct to HiFi VCR ??? 
    
    karl.. 80 degrees here today Sun fans !

    Some of the Sony's (mine for example) have a PCM adaptor builtin
    to the back of the unit.
    
    Seems to me that once you have the VCR, you can make the PCM decision
    separately without loss of investment providing that you get a
    VCR that can be used with PCM (I don't know what that entails).

    	db

    
    re: .all
    
    	I, too, use a VHS HIFI for mastering. I have had no problems
    with noise except for the obvious things like making sure the tracking
    is aligned, I'm not overloading a channel somewhere, etc. The VHS
    has higher s/n and headroom in general (by a LONG shot) from my
    Portastudio II which mixes down to it. Comments about the pause/record
    are true; however, beware that most pause buttons only let you pause
    for five minutes max - it beats on the heads.
    
        I would have chosen Beta, if it was more popular. However, I
    mixed agendas when I bought the deck. I wanted a VCR, and I wanted
    a mastering deck. Rather than spend 500+ bucks on a decent VCR,
    and 800+ bucks for a marginally decent mastering deck, I went for
    the 800 bucks and bought a reasonably good VCR. Beta is almost
    nonexistent around here, the known universe having committed to
    VHS. I read recently that even Sony will be marketing VHS decks
    (made by Sansui I think) soon.
    
        Certainly, it works, and works well. Use good tape, though,
    I experimented with different types and found that, as in most
    recording applications, cheap tape doesn't work as well.
    
    /pjh

Someone told me recently that a VHS HIFI deck + PCM adapter exceeds the
cost of a grey market DAT deck.  If this is actually the case Karl,
then you can pick up a DAT deck and use it not only for mastering, but also
for distribution (some day we'll all have DAT decks).

Todd.

    Todd is write, I didn't want to sya it butt it wood seam like bying
    in to PCM at this time, mite be a reel mistake. Bettor off weighting
    for DAT, which seems an inevicability rite now.
    
    	db

    PCM/VCR combo has some advantages over DAT in certain applications.
    For example, After making your stereo master in PCM you may use
    the two normal audio tracks for device control such as MIDI or slide
    projectors say for a mulit-media show. In fact depending on the
    control systems you devise the possibilities ate almost endless.
    But, if all you want is quality stereo wait for DAT.
    
    Jim
    

    re 'grey market DAT'.. Todd, here in Tucson there is certainly a
    black market (being so close to Mexico) - it'd be easier to
    score major consumables than a DAT recorder. 
    
    Re waiting for GooDAT.. I smell 2 years before they're readily
    available, with or without notch filter..
    
    I'm now a bit confused on the PCM/VCR combo. I hear that Beta HiFi
    is better overall than VHS HiFi, and some folks say mastering directly
    to VHS HiFi is fine, but then I hear you need a PCM frontend. I
    have a friend with BOTH a Beta HiFi AND a PCM frontend.. CD quality
    for sure. He says it's "fine without PCM" ... then why'd he buy
    it ?
    
    thanks for your kahnd support, karl

    My group just finished doing some recording with a borrowed PCM/Beta
    setup. Very high quality sound indeed. The difference btween PCM and
    straight VCR, I believe, is that the PCM converts analog audio to
    digital signals (the connection from PCM to Beta is only a single wire,
    not stereo), where the Beta deck records a more normal audio signal (no
    A/D/A conversion). PCMs are expensive, over $1000 last I heard. I also
    heard rumors a while ago that Sony wasn't going to make the home
    version any longer, not enough of a market. 
    
    A friend did an A-B comparsion for me around Christmas time, of
    his CD against CDs recorded to his hi-fi VCR (VHS format). I couldn't
    tell the difference on casual listening. He claimed that he could
    detect a bit of difference in the high end on the VCR, but not much.
    
    I think the biggest drawback to using a VCR as a matering deck would
    be the inablity to edit. Otherwise, a great idea.

    Rob

    Karl,
    
    Just found out that there's a VHS VCR that comes with builtin
    PCM.  It's the Toshiba DX-900 and it sells for a typical hi-end
    VCR price, just under a grand.  I'm also told that it performs
    about as well as a typical hi-end VCR.
    
    So from what I hear it is NOT a cheap VCR with PCM.  Or put another
    way, you get a very good VCR plus PCM at apparently no extra cost.
    
    	db

    Problem specific to the DX-900 :
    	
    	You can't use it in real-time to record WGBX (TV 44 boston,
    a channel that sometimes puts the PCM over the video channel).
    Whenever you punch it into PCM mode, it drops into TAPE PLAY.
    (or so the note in the CD notesfile says).  If you aren't into
    listening to GBX, this is a moot point.
    	
    Problem generic to Toshiba products:
    	
    If congresscritters decide to go thru with barring all Toshiba products
    for 2 years (because Toshiba machine tool Inc. sold submarine propeller
    machining equipment to the Soviets), you will NOT be able to get repair
    parts for your recorder.  Nada.  Nothing. 
    
    	That ALONE makes me refuse to buy anything that says "Toshiba"
    unless it's a throwaway (it breaks, I throw it away.  CD players
    are a good example).                     
    

Just read in EE Times that Casio is going to market a DAT player in
one east coast city and one west coast city of the USA this spring.
Knowing Casio, the price should be right.  One of the many companies slated
to introduce DAT players in the US this spring, copy code or not.

Todd.