Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    A thru box will not solve your problem, as it does no channel filtering
    and your problem is not driving multiple devices at the same time.
    I believe the MIDI standard says that devices are supposed to power
    up in OMNI mode, and you may have to do something special to get
    it out of OMNI.  Without seeing the JX3P documentation I can't tell
    you where to look, but I'd bet it's in there somewhere.  (Everybody
    agrees that powering up in OMNI mode is dumb, but that's what the
    standard says.  Many devices ignore this admonition, especially
    smart ones that send and receive on all channels.)

    If push comes to shove, you can get a channel filter that will filter
    out everything except data for the selected channel.  I think Roland
    and JLCooper make such things.  The Roland device is the MPU-103
    I think (I may be wrong, so don't take this as gospel).
    
    Good luck.
    
    len.
    

    I thought about this a little more.  MY Roland sequencers send a
    MIDI command that says "OMNI off" when they power up.  Thus, I have
    learned to power up all my synths/etc. BEFORE I power up the
    sequencers, and to make sure that all the synths/etc. are MIDIed
    to the sequencer when I power IT up.  This results in everybody
    being nonOMNI.
    
    You may have to ask somebody (like Roland) if you can't find out
    otherwise.  I went browsing through my manuals and this seems to
    be a neglected point.  I have the impression many synths can only
    be controlled with respect to OMNI on/off over the MIDI port and
    NOT from their front/back panels.  This is especially true of earlier
    products.  There seems to be no convention.  E.g., my TR909 powers
    up in OMNI, indicating MIDI channel "0".  If you change the channel
    to anything else it goes to OMNI off, but the only way to get back
    to OMNI on is to go through the power up cycle.  I think my POLY800
    works this way too.  Some of my MIDI devices have OMNI on/off switches
    (physical, i.e., a real switch, or logical, i.e., a parameter value).
    
    Good luck.  Let us know what you finally learn.  How do other folks'
    synths handle this?
    
    len.
    

    A LOGICAL switch! Now there's an idea I hadn't thought of. 
    
    My Yamaha sequencer has a monitor function. I'll check out what
    sort of messages are sent/recieved during power-up. I'll also
    see if I can load a channel select sequence from my DX into the
    sequencer and then pass it off to the Roland.
    
    If I power-up the sequencer AFTER the DX I get "MIDI DATA ERROR"
    on the DX. (Pressing any function key clears it.) For this reason
    I've been bringing the synths up last. Perhaps my sequence of events
    is a-whack...
    
    Full report and pictures at 11:00.
    
                                              Thanks
                  
                                              Edd
    
                   

    I would be interested as I will be MIDIing my JX3-P soon.
    
    thanks
    
    dave

    After 4 hours of intense experimentation, I am sorry to say the
    JX3-P is still OMNI only.
    
    I tried loading an OMNI OFF sequence to my QX-21 from my DX and
    then "downloading" the sequence to the Roland via the DX MIDI-thru
    port. N.G. Not only was the Roland still OMNI but the DX didn't
    respond to it either. (Before running the sequence, I put the DX
    in OMNI to see if the sequence had any effect.) I then MIDI'd the
    2 synths together (DX-out to JX-in). Still no effect. I also tried
    various power-up sequences and toggling various parameters on the
    DX. (System, channel, ect.) All to no avail.
    
    It would appear that some/all of the following are true...
    
             1. I have no idea what I am doing.
             2. The 2 - 2 1/2 year old Roland may not conform to
                MIDI specs. It was sold during the infancy of MIDI.
             3. The Roland has a bug...
    
    Unless someone else has an idea, it looks like it's "Hello, Roland...?"
    time. I still have a couple parameters to check on the QX sequencer,
    but until then, it looks like the most effective way to shut the
    Roland up is to change patches to one with the level set to "0".
    
    I'll post any further developements in a separate note, as this
    is getting away from the base-note title.
    
    Thanks Len for the help....
    
    Edd

    Hmmmm... interestinger and interestinger.  Have you tried calling
    your dealer?
    
    Interesting that the DX complains about the sequencer's power up
    output - maybe it's a glitch rather than a legitimate MIDI message?
    Note that the DX may not send "OMNI off" over its MIDI out when
    you tell it "OMNI off" through its user interface.  On some synths,
    this is under control of a "mode switch" - e.g., the Juno-106 has
    three modes under the control of a little slide switch on the back
    panel.  In one of these modes it sends everything, including parameter
    changes.  Check out the MIDI implementation chart that came with
    the DX.  I don't know if Yamaha provides the same sort of documentation
    that Roland does, but all of Roland's MIDI devices come with a
    poop sheet that spells out exactly what MIDI messages the device
    recognizes and sends, under what circumstances.  The JX-3p should
    have such a sheet (it looks like photoreduced lineprinter output);
    confirm on it that the JX3P recognizes the MIDI system message
    'OMNI off'.
    
    Does the JX3P's programmer (the little box with sliders and switches)
    interface to the JX3P through the MIDI port, or is there a separate
    innterface?  If so, I'd be surprised if the JX3P didn't recognize
    OMNI off, it'd've cost them (Roland) essentially nothing to provide
    it.  It's hard to believe that the JX3P is OMNI only.

    One last thing - Roland's (and they're probably not alone in this
    regard) documentation is known to contain errors.  It's usually
    (poorly) translated from the Japanese.  The MIDI implementation
    charts are usually correct though - it's the narrative stuff in
    the user's manual that can be misleading.  So don't berate yourself
    if you can't figure out what's going on.
    
    len.
    

    I suspect (gut feeling, no proof) that the QX sends a glitch to
    the DX on power-up...
    
    The JX programmer interfaces via a seperate DIN-type connector.
    I don't have the programmer, by the way, the edit map provides
    enough info to create patches without it. (Thanks to Derek Speed
    for the poop on that, in some other note.)
    
    Please note the JX does not have ANY MIDI physical switches,
    or a MIDI thru port.
    
    Oh yeah, one other thing. The Roland isn't really mine. It's on
    kinda "Perma-Loan", so I'm a bit hesitant to do any real heavy
    experimentation with it.
    
    We'll keep you posted...
    
    Edd
    

    re: .7
    
    Tell me about it!
    
    "Press number switch of wishing voice for putting out..."

    Your JX does not have MIDI through? I'm sure mine does. Curiouser
    and curiouser.....
    dave

    I went wandering through my library of MIDI documentation and dug
    up the following about how OMNI mode is treated for a variety of
    MIDI devices.  While this won't solve Edd's problem, it is kind
    of Eddifying. ;-)
    
    Sequencers 
    
      Both of Roland's sequencers, the MSQ-100 and MSQ-700,
      output OMNI OFF on all channels at power up.  The "all channels"
      is important - "mode messages" (which include OMNI ON) are only
      recognized on the channel transmitted on, regardless of the receiver's
      mode.  Thus, even if you're in OMNI mode, the standard doesn't require
      you to recognize OMNI OFF sent on a channel different from the one
      you're receiving on!  Only "voice messages" are recognized in OMNI
      mode regardless of the receiving channel.  Cute, huh?   Neither
      sequencer will record OMNI OFF (or any mode message).  Both "recognize"
      OMNI OFF, though it has no meaning to them.
    
    Synthesizers - all possible variations seem to be in use.
     
      The Korg POLY-800 powers up in OMNI ON mode, and can only be switched over
      the MIDI in.  There is no indication of the current mode.

      The Roland JUNO-106 transmits OMNI OFF when it powers up. Probably
      on all channels, but I don't know for sure (not documented), it
      might be only on the selected channel.  When the MIDI transmit/receive
      channel is changed, it transmits OMNI OFF (again, on what channel(s)
      is unspecified).  There is no mode indicator.
    
      The Chroma Polaris powers up in whatever mode it was left in,
      contrary to what its documentation says (it says it powers up
      in OMNI ON, as required by the MIDI spec).  It recognizes OMNI
      OFF over the MIDI in (undocumented but observed).  OMNI mode can
      be controlled from the front panel and there is an indicator to
      tell you what mode you're currently in.  It's not clear if the
      Polaris sends OMNI off over its MIDI OUT when you change its mode
      from the front panel.  There is a "front panel" switch as part
      of the MIDI parameters, but the details of its effects are
      undocumented in the early Polaris manual I have.

      The Casio CZ-101 seems to not have any notion of OMNI whatsoever.
      The documentation says nothing about it, but the CZ-101 behaves
      as if always in OMNI OFF mode.
    
      The 360 Systems MIDIBass (a MIDI slave device) goes into OMNI
      ON mode when you select "ALL" channels as its receive channel.
      Selecting a single channel (only 1 - 14 are available) puts it
      in OMNI OFF mode.  The selector switch is thus the indicator.
      I don't know what it does if it receives an "OMNI OFF" while in
      "ALL" channels mode.  I'll have to do this experiment.

      The Roland MKS-80 Super Jupiter powers up in whatever mode it
      was last in.  It recognizes OMNI OFF over the MIDI IN, and there
      is a front panel OMNI indicator.  There is no way to change the
      mode from the front panel.  It's not clear if a received OMNI
      OFF is forwarded over the MIDI OUT or THRU ports, or both.  The
      documentation says it's forwarded over the OUT port, and says
      nothing about THRU.

    Drum Machines
    
      The Roland TR-707 and TR-727 both power up in the mode last set.
      The OMNI mode can be toggled from the font panel and there is
      an indicator telling you what mode you're currently in.  The
      documentation implies they don't recognize OMNI OFF over the MIDI
      IN, but I'll have to confirm this with an experiment.

      The Roland TR-909 powers up in OMNI ON mode.  Selecting any MIDI
      channel sets the mode to OMNI OFF.  The channel number serves
      as the indicator - if 0, it's in OMNI ON mode.  Once set to OMNI
      OFF, you have to power it up again to go back to OMNI ON.  No
      documentation about recognizing OMNI OFF over the MIDI IN.

    Effects
    
      The Roland SRV-2000 reverb powers up in whatever mode it was last
      in.  It recognizes OMNI ON/OFF over the MIDI IN.  You can control
      the mode from the front panel, and there's an indicator.
    
    As I said, all over the map, with respect to both implementation
    details and quality of documentation.

    This info may help the "MIDI-Masters" bail me out...
    
            I connected the JX3-P MIDI-out port to the MIDI-in port
    of my QX-21 sequencer, and put the sequencer in "Monitor Mode" in
    order to observe what was comin' down the pike.
    
            Note on   = 91
            Note off  = 81
    
   Now if I understand MIDI protocol correctly, 9n breaks down as...
               
            9n          Note On. (I realize I'm not getting the full
                                  info. What note? Velocity? Ect...)
    
            8n          Note Off ( ditto, most of above.)
    
      Where  n        = MIDI channel number
    
    So it appears the Roland sends on MIDI 1 (only) and (currently) recieves
    in OMNI. There seems to be too much evidence for me to buy-off that
    I'm stuck in OMNI, so I'll keep pluggin' away...
    
    One thing that surprises me (and I'll bet alot of other noters)...
    
         "Where is John Sauter's reply? The world awaits!!"    :^)
    
    Edd     
                                                    
    

    re: .1   
    
    Len, if your sequencers send OMNI OFF at power up, what channel
    do your synths end up on? Last used? Channel x default?
    
    Edd

    It depends.  Some of them remember what channel they were last set
    to (e.g., MKS-80, TR-707/727, Polaris).  Others reset to channel
    "0" (TR-909) which is really OMNI (TOTALLY ignoring channel number
    in all messages, not just voice messages).  The JUNO-106 and CZ-101
    reset to channel 1 at power up.  The Poly-800 always sends on channels
    1 (keyboard) and 2 (internal sequencer).  The receive channel is
    whatever you set it to last.  The MIDIBass powers up in whatever
    channel the front panel slide switch is set to.

    Note that you can't change a synth's send or receive channel over
    the MIDI port - there is no "change channel" MIDI message.  Thus
    this is independent of whatever the sequencers do.  I don't think
    your question was meant to imply such an interaction; rather, given that
    my sequencers tell everybody else to go OMNI OFF, what channels are they
    (everybody else) then listening on?

    It's all perfectly sensible, don't you think?  ;-)
    

    re: .12--I've just been reading and learning; I can't contribute
    much to this discussion.  I do wonder about the QX-21's Monitor
    Mode.  Doesn't it show you the complete MIDI message?
        John Sauter

    Right John, I was going to ask where's the other bytes (they contain
    the note number and velocity data).  Most MIDI messages are 3 bytes
    long.
    
    I have several times wished for various kinds of MIDI "buss monitors",
    e.g.:
    
    	a device with 16 lights that would show active channels (NOTE
    	ON turns the light on, NOTE OFF turns it off)
    
    	a device that would show on an LED bar graph kind of display
    	the velocity of NOTE ONs on a selected channel, perhaps with a
    	"sample and hold" option
    
    len.
    

    The "Monitor" function on the QX-21 consists of a 2 digit hexadecimal
    display on the front panel. Since it's displaying hex, I assume
    I am monitoring 8 bits out of the message...
    
                      9 1        (Note On, channel 2)
                   1001 0001
                                                    
                      8 B        (Note Off channel 12)
                   1000 1100
    
    Which 8 bits? ("Duh...") And why only 2 bytes? Remember, this is
    a $200 sequencer. I don't suppose I can ask for the world. Then
    again, given Yamahahaha's propensity towards documentation, the
    full MIDI message may be available and I just can't find it!
    
    Edd

    It is rare for a keyboard to use the 8x form of Note Off.
    If the keyboard doesn't have Release Velocity it is more
    efficient to use 9x nn 00, since it can then use Running
    Status to suppress the status byte.  Thus, the 8B on the
    monitor may be something other than a MIDI status byte.
    I've never seen any documentation on the QX-21 so I can't
    guess what it might be.
        John Sauter

    I forgot to ask the obvious... How do you owners of JX's get yours
    out of OMNI?
    
    Edd

    I finally stopped by Union Music in Worcester where the Roland was
    purchased and questioned them. After a call to Roland in CA., we
    found there is a $49.95 IC chip that can be retrofit by the user
    and will cure the problem. The catch...
    
                  You get your choice of MIDI channels 1 or 3. This
                  doesn't impress me as too big a deal.
    
                  The keyboard is disconnected from the synth whenever
                  the unit is set to OMNI off. A small price to pay.
    
    2 week lead time on the chip.
    
    According to the salesman and Roland alot of the early Rolands made
    it out this way due to confusion about the then new MIDI specs.
        
    Edd

    I believe the retrofit will also make your JX3-P velocity sensitive
    when driven via MIDI, by a PC or another velocity sensitive machine.
    
    $49.95 is a small price to pay. However, I understand that the upgrade
    is very difficult to install due to the large number of screws that
    need to be removed/repaced and other features such as having not
    been built to be worked on.
    
    dave

    I'll second that, if my experience going into my msq-700 to change
    its battery (still haven't got one!).  The battery was soldered
    to the underside of the PC board, which was in turn mounted to the
    chassis with TEN screws! (At least it wasn't riveted...)
    
    len.
    

    I ordered the upgrade chip via Union Music in Worcester. 
    $49.95 and 2 weeks.
    
    The real owner of the JX was a tad squimish about opening up the
    unit and performing any surgery. So I asked Union if they'd do the
    upgrade. They said OK but only under the following UNGAWDLY terms...
    
              1. They'd charge me $20.00
              2. I'd have to wait around the store for close to an
                 hour while Rolly was under the knife.
              3. I'd be subjected to coffee and donuts.
    
    Reluctantly, I agreed.... ;^)
        
    A whole-hearted endorsement for the service and sales at Union Music!
    
    Edd

    Sounds great! I was quoted a price of $125 to do the upgrade......
    
    unfortunately Union Music is a little far from Augusta
                            
    dave

    re: .23
    
    If the owner is the Field Service engineer I think it is, tell her
    that she should have more confidence in her ability to perform
    upgrades!  :-)
    
    My experiences with Union Music have also been pleasant.  Nice bunch
    of folks.
    
    		Derek

    Well, the Roland goes under the knife tonight! (gasp!) I'll post
    the details here later. Cards and letters may be sent c/o Union
    Music.
    
    Re. .25 - I passed the word along. The issue is not so much one
    of "ability" to perform the upgrade, (I'm a Field Service Engineer
    also, so I'm sure either one of us could do a $20 retrofit), but
    rather one of "liability". What if the chip arrived DOA? No company
    is going to keep giving Joe User $50 IC's to hack around with. By
    having them do it, I'm not gauranteed a success, but I do have some-
    one to push back on if it fails. Well worth $20.....
    
    Edd
    
    

    Good luck with the upgrade.  Even though I am an EE by education,
    I resist the temptation to go futzing around inside my gear when
    things break.  Better to "leave that to the professionals", as they
    say.
    
    		Derek

    ... so there goes Edd, happy as a clam, runnin' down to Union Music
    to pick up the JX3-P with the new OMNI-off, velocity sensitive upgrade.
    He proudly presents his claim ticket and off goes the sales-type.
    Tick, tock, tick, tock. Some minutes later the saleman returns.
    "Uh, like we can't find any Roland back there with your name on
    it..." AARRGGHHH!!! I just dropped it off yesterday! A quick search
    and they find it, under the real owner's name. Logical. It was left there
    under her name! He disappears again. Tick, tock, tick, tock....
    Again he returns. "Um, like the chip we got from Roland was bad."
    I smile. This is why we didn't do it ourselves!!! Now for the kicker,
    I ask, "What did you do then?" Luckily, the old chip went back in
    and functioned perfectly. I set it up in the middle of the floor
    and tested it on the spot; all is OK. OMNI never looked so good!
    
    So I ask if they get lots of bad chips. When he indicates yes, I
    ask about static protection. "What?" Static bags, floor mats, wrist
    and heel straps. Nope. Nuthin.   
    
    So I'm wondering. Was it DOA? Or fried by some "tech" who shuffled
    across the rug to get it? We'll never know. I'm damn glad I didn't
    fork over my hard-earned cash (no snickers) for it though.
                                                                    
    So why don't we all do ourselves a big favor. Ask your local keyboard
    emporium what they do about static. I bet not much. Educate 'em!
    They'll save time and money and retain customer good will. You'll
    get better/faster service next time you have repairs done.
    
    What if my original chip took a hit? I shudder to think....
    
    BTW, Union Music is still a good place to do business, I can't
    blame them for this. DOA's DO happen.
    
    Edd

    OMNI-OFF! OMNI-OFF! OMNI-OFF!
    
    Union called the day after I picked up the Roland to say they had
    a second chip. I brought it in yesterday and picked it up today.
    Sure enough, OMNI-off, choice of ch. 1 or 3, and velocity info
    recieve.
    
    OMNI is shut off by powering the unit up while holding down voice
    selector 7. All on-board sequencer light come on to verify  it is
    "in the mode". Chanell selection is made by pressing the "Tape Memory"
    button, off=1, on=3. The keyboard is disconnected when in this mode,
    so you MUST use an outboard controller. I could find no faults with
    the upgrade.
    
    They did misquote the price to me earlier though. They said $49.95
    plus $20 for labor. Ended up costing $61.90.
    
    :^) :^) :^) :^) :^) :^)
    
    Edd who_never_had_much_use_for_OMNI_anyhow

    Well, the title mentions thru-boxes so I'll dump this here...
    
    My QX has a thru port I have no use for due to the  "local echo"
    feature. What I could use is a second out port.
    
    Can I wire 'em in parralel? (Did I spell that right, Uncle len?)
    
    Edd

    Thanks!
    
    But will it work?
    
    Edd

    Seems to me I read about someone doing this somewhere else when the QX
    was the rage ... I don't see why there would be a problem.

    Rather than get inside the box, you may want to build an external box
    that simply splits MIDI out. 

-b (up north this week in someone else's account)

    Since the MIDI spec involves a current loop interface, I wonder
    if things will work ok if you just wire two outputs together.
    I think they may require separate optoisolators/drivers.
    
    len.
    

    Mind you, this is just an exercise in wishing, as I got the same
    optoisolator line at my local purveyor and ended up walking out
    with a $60 1->6 thru box...
    
    Didn't somebody in here actually convert a thru to an out?
    
    Edd

    The Atari ST MIDI out is also wired for THRU on the unused pins (see
    notes elsewhere).  Maybe that's what we're thinking of. 

-b (still at PKO)

    Wait. Brad is a Parker St.???
    
    For how long?
    
    Edd

    No, I'm not *A* Parker St (but I've been called lots of things before,
    so no big deal). 

    I'm AT Parker St.  For the whole week.  Honest.  And what's bimmed?
    I've been bashed, beat up - even sucker punched once, but I don't think
    I've ever been bimmed ... what's the scoop?

-b

    Of course!
    
    It's usually on Wednesday (although a move to Tuesday this week
    only wouldn't break my heart...).
    
    I'm sure I can speak for len and Ron when I say were really kinda
    hurt it wasn't on your list of things to do while in MA. It's at
    least as much fun as looking at a $1200 car insurance policy.
    (Bet you ain't got none of them in Ohio!)
    
    Edd

    [I'll delete all these garbage notes when I'm back home, since they're
    off the topic.] 

    Weeellll, I s'pose I could be flim-flammed into attending one for a
    while.  Wherizit, and how far from MLO?  (I'm staying at the Best
    Western Royal Plaza on 20 off 495.)  Dress code?  Soft drinks
    supported?  Etc, etc, etc. 

    Is there an associated jam before/during/after the BIM?  And, or
    course, my heartfelt apologies to Len, Ron ... and yes, even you, Uncle
    Edd. 

-b the_chagrined

    Well, gheesh, you be practically there!! The Royal Plasma Hotel
    is right across the street from Mt. Royal, where JAWS:: lives.
    But I moved so ignore that...
    
    Tom Foolery's (default site and exhalted BIM breeding ground)
    is about 4 miles from there. Get on 495 South and get off
    at the next exit, Route 9 West. TF's is about 2 miles down
    route 9, on the right. The lounge is inside. On the right.
    
    Soft drinks are supported. Dress code is neo-yuppie. (They'd
    prefer no T-shirts or sneakers but the 3 of us seem to have a 
    little bit of pull with the hostoid.)
    
    Usually starts Wednesday at 5:00. Assume that unless there is
    an overwhelming cry for Tuesday. (My preference this week.)
    
    Of course, Barbara's not there on Tuesdaze....
    
    Edd

    To my great surprise, LERDS-BIM *does* have a dress-code!!!!
    
    No T-shirts are allowed!
    
    Obviously this dress-code is enforced by the host establishment,
    not the organizers and patrons of LERDS-BIM.
    
    I once drove all the way down from Nashua, NH (about 1� hours)
    only to be refused admittance.  Fortunately we were able to persuade
    (by threatening to take our considerable business elsewhere)
    them to overlook the dress code this one time.
    
    	db
    
    p.s. By the way, you may not get such a break if the T-shirt you
         happen to be wearing says "Yamaha" on it.
    
         On the other hand, if your T-shirt says "Roland", don't
         be surprised if instead of getting thrown out, they roll out
         the red carpet instead
    
    	 ;-)

    Howzabout "sin sux"?  Seriously, I'll be normal and wear a (fairly)
    decent nonT-shirt and a nice pair of blue jeans (all I got, guys - they
    don't pay us dweebes in the field). 

    What time should I arrive?  Any pointers?  I think I remember Tom
    Foolery's ... ain't it on the way to Len's apt.? 

-b

    You got the right place.
    
    Is tomorrow OK with you? With anyone else? If not assume Wednesday...
    5:00. I can't stay long...
    
    Edd

    If tomorrow, you gotta let me know ... fast.  I'll have to shuffle my
    schedule, and as it stands now, I'm completely full.  Let me (us) know. 

-b

    I'm the guy that hacked my QX5 thru to become an out.  I've been
    using it this way for a year with no problems.  The hack is simple,
    requiring a snip and soldering a joint.  It does not involve soldering
    on the PC traces.  Near as I can tell, they designed the board so
    they could have gone either way (thru-out or out-out) with the jumper
    wires.  I tried looking for the note but couldn't find it.  I'm
    sure I posted it ...  Anyway, look inside on the component side
    of the main PC board and you'll see two jumper wires parallel to
    each other and rather close.  One feeds the thru and the other feeds
    the out.  The fix consists of breaking the one and soldering one
    side of it to the other.  But, I don't remember the exaxt details.
    
    Steve

    
    What exactly is the difference between MIDI thru and MIDI out?
    
    	Mark
    

    Thru's what has come in from somebody else, while out is your own
    contribution to network congestion.              
    
    Richard.

    Nope, THRU is an exact duplicate of what came on the IN socket,
    nothing added, nothing taken out.
    
    OUT is what was generated locally, and nothing else (in particular,
    OUT does _not_ have a copy of IN on it.).
    
    	-Bill

    Unless, of course, your unit has a MIDI merge facility, which,
    to my mind, negates any use for a thru port on the unit.
    
    Edd

    I thought merge was used for:
    
    IN: other stuff in down one string
    
    OUT: your stuff out down another string
    
    MERGE: Your stuff + other stuff out down the second string (or a
    third string)
    
    THRU: other stuff out down yet another string.
    
    I can see a use for this (but not for me)
    
    Richard.
    

    As I understand it (I'm sure I've experienced it also), MIDI THRU
    does NOT handle the stuff your machine has generated - this goes
    out via MIDI OUT. Therefore, it's a kind of filter. ie.
    
    	(Assume the device is set to handle channel 3)
    
    	MIDI IN		MIDI OUT		MIDI THRU
    	-------		--------		---------
    	1,2,3,4		   3			 1,2,4
    
    Note that this may be device-dependant - I use a CZ, MT-32, TR-505
    and an Atari.
    
    Jim Burke (waiting to get shot down, but as I say, I'm sure I've
    experienced it !)
                    

RE < Note 261.52 by MUNCSS::BURKE >

>                    -< ...just to add to the confusion... >-
	That you did!

	MIDI OUT (as specified by the MIDI SPEC) will only transmit data that
is originated in the device it is located on.  MIDI THRU will only transmit
data that comes in the MIDI IN port.  It's not a kind of a filter.

	Therfore, the scenario should be:

    	MIDI IN		MIDI OUT		MIDI THRU
    	-------		--------		---------
    	1,2,4		   3			 1,2,4
    
	(assuming the device being operated is set to transmit on MIDI ch. 3)

	Dan Eaton

    On most machines (that I've had experience with), MIDI OUT can almost
    be considered "hard wired" to the MIDI IN, therefore anything coming
    into MIDI IN would be reflected at the MIDI THROUGH. The unit would
    not normally suck of any channel dependent data (unless of course
    you had a special intelligent interface that would do this for you.
    
    Even if the kbd was set to Tx on 3 and chan 3 data was coming IN,
    this would still be seen at the THROUGH. Any data generated by the
    kbd would only be seen on the OUT, thus the scenario could be:
    
    MIDI IN		MIDI OUT		MIDI THROUGH
    1,2,3,5		3			1,2,3,5
    
    The difference would be that unless a merge was used, the two sets
    of channel 3 data would be different.
    
    Hope this doesn't add more confusion...particularily to me!!
    
    Ken
    

    Ooops, in last note, first line should have been MIDI THROUGH can
    be considered hard wired to MIDI IN. Sorry for the confusion.
    
    Ken
    

    I'm about to do a major boo-boo here.  I'm going to ask a question
    without having read all 55 previous replies.  I hope I'm not going
    to be too redundant.
    
    In a few short months, I've gone from midi-nothing to midi-much
    (well, much to me anyway).
    
    Now, I could "chain" my EPS (as master) to my HR16, R8, O3, to the
    P3 but that sounds sloppy.
    
    Is a midi-through box like my idea of a midi-distributor?
    
                --------
    		|Chan 1|--> HR16
    		|Chan 2|--> R8
    EPS out -->	|Chan 3|--> O3
    		|Chan 4|--> P3
    		|Chan 5|-->
    		|Chan x|-->
		--------
    
    Guitar Center showed me a small box with two midi-in (A/B) and four
    outputs assigned to each a and b.  Cost $99
    
    Does this sound like a good deal, or can someone suggest something
    more suited to what I might need (hey, I don't know what I need).
    
    Thanks
    "jackin' the house", Bob

    
    	Yup, thats a thru box. Except in your drawing the channel
    assignments seemed internal to the thru box. The recieve channels
    are assigned in each of the midimodules. 
       Seems to me all you need is a thru box, at this point. You may plan for
    the future and get something that merges at the same time, but this 
    would probably run you a good $100 more than just a thru box.       
        I have a Kawai MX8r mixer which actually has a one input ,four out
     midi thru box built-in. Good idea, eh?.
                              
    
    
    					Rich
    

     Philip Rees (a uk manufacturer) makes some inexpensive midi thru,
     merge and switch modules.  I've got a couple V3 modules (battery operated).

     V3 (1 input 3 output) 12.95 pounds (battery operated)

     2M (2 input , 2 thru outputs, 2 merge outputs) 79.95 pounds

     9S, 9-1 switch 35.95 pds
     5S, 5-1 switch 25.95 pds
     2S, 2-1 switch 12.95 pds
     3B, 3 input 2 output rotary changeover switch.

     I don't have a latest catalog - but I've been pleased with the units.

     I also have a 2 input 1 output JLC merge/filter box which costs about 70pds
     which works fine too..

     Bruce

    Do you realize that you don't *need* a thru box? Use of the MIDI
    THRU port will allow you to access all your SGUs when they are
    connected serially...
    
    Edd

    Your right! but some of us have equipment without THRU ports.
    Yamaha CLP-50 and ROLAND TR626 and the ATARIst.
    (these are features ...)

    I also believe P-R makes a 1-5 thru box...

    I classify the P-R equipment as TOYS since they are not rack mounted
    and do not eliminate a lot of cables running around and are not
    programmable. ... but they work...  and met my needs...

    I also looked into a number of the patchbays and realized that though
    they have a lot of ins and outs - they generally only have one merge.

    I have actually reduced the need for a lot of these toys by getting
    a ROM replaced in my CLP-50 ... the active sense and local off features
    were broken - but I was able to work around them using alternative midi
    paths using these extra modules.

    Bruce

    Bob, the thru-box may be cleaner conceptually, but I doubt that it
    would provide you any real practical advantage.  I used to have 11 MIDI
    devices chained together using MIDI THRU, and had no trouble or delays
    or anything else. 

    The only advantage I can see to a box like this is that it prevents
    your MIDI network from going away should one of the modules decide to
    go south for some reason. 

    I'd add a few bux to my $100 and buy a �verbII if I were you. 

-b

    I had to build (why buy!) a MIDI-thru box, since I now hve 2
    SGUs without MIDI thru ports...
    
    I redesigned it from an old Keyboard article, such that it uses
    the HP-6N138 optoisolator, which is readiliy available.  Most
    project articles (and the ATARI ST) use the Sharp PC900, which
    I couldn't find in any "over the counter" stores in the area...
    
    If anyone out there wants to build one, let me know, and I'll send
    you a schematic...
    
    NOW all my equipment is networked!
    
    _John_

	You might look into a MIDI patch bay to allow you to route things.
	I have both a '1 in 4 out thru box' and an 'MX-8 Patch Bay/Processer'.

	I find that I often have to reconfigure things (especially when I
	want to be able to connect into other SGU's, or add something). The
	thru box connects to my sequencer (after being routed thru the MX-8) 
	& this keeps the MIDI path fairly short, and tweekable. Why don't I
	just use the thru ports on the SGU's, well,  occasionally, something 
	gets turned off thats at the beginning of the chain & I get stuck 
	on notes. I also had a few problems with figuring out what was 
	connected to what (I spent quite a bit of time diagraming my set 
	up & defining my needs before wiring my rack).

	I'd say that a patch bay or thru box might simplify management of
	your MIDI network. I don't know how you sequence, but I tend to
	use random MIDI devices for input (I have a CZ-101, ESQ-1 & TR-505
	for most of the inputs, but have also connected up to KX-5's, 
	Octa-pads and a MIDI guitar (Suzuki product) to input data. Since
	I'm really a guitar player turned keyboard player, I tend not to
	focus on what the keyboard does, but try for certain things that
	the random MIDI devices allow me to feel more comfortable with.
	My network allows me to define up to 6 input controllers, and 
	still allows me to load either my MMT-8 or ESQ-1 sequencer while
	the other is playing (This was quite a challenge). My emphasis
	is for live performance & ability to swap things around fast is
	quite important. MIDI networks can get messy in no time at all.

							Jens

    I found that my KX88 was sending MIDI data that caused my EMAX to
    barf.. not playing every eighth note.  So I got a SONUS 2in, *8* out
    box for... $99.
    
    karl

    To answer your collective questions and comments....
    
    I was considering this midi-through box because of various comments
    read in here about devices getting confused ala' not being able
    to keep up with the midi information passing "thru" them.
    
    re: the suggestion to get a midiverb.  I forgot to include them
    in my list of toys.  I have two midiverb II's.

    re: That one reply about thru-boxes being 79.x pounds.  "Damn!"
    I thought,  "That's awfully *heavy* for a little patch box.  My EPS
    only weighs about 50 pounds!"  
    
    Then I realized you mean *money*.
    
    Karl:  I think the SONUS box is what Guitar Center showed me.  It
    had 2 in and 8 out but they were grouped in 4's (Group A and Gruop
    B).  Yes?  No?
    
    Thanks everyone!
    
    "jackin' the house", Bob

    I picked up a Korg 1 in, 6 out thru box for ~$60...
    
    Edd

    Oh, BTW, I've NEVER had a problem with datums clogging up my THRU
    ports...
    
    Edd

    I just picked up a MIDImix 5 thru box yesterday for a whopping $8, new.
    It's a 2-in, 3-out device.  Hooked it up, works great.
    
    This thing looks like a ceramic ring stuffed with potting compund, into
    which are placed five DIN connectors, a switch to slect input, a green
    LED which I can't make light up and an electrolytic cap.
    
    What I'm trying to figure out is whether this actually has optos
    inside somewhere and sucks power off the current loop ala Anatek
    Pocket things, or is this actually a passive device?
    
    Potting has one severe side effect, if the thing breaks, it can't be
    repaired.  For $8, I guess that's OK  8^)  8^)
    
    					Brian

    If it had opto's wouldn't it only work in one direction???
    
    Edd

Gee, where do I get one?

	Eirikur