Conference kaosws::canada

    I think that to blame Canada for that experience is really rather
    unfair, and moreover to suggest that it would never happen in the
    USA is ignoring the facts that people are very regularly stopped,
    searched and subjected to intense scrutiny crossing the border into
    the USA from Canada.
    
    What happened were two things ...
    
    First you brought what appeared to be business related equipment
    into the country, so it looked like you were going to work without
    a work permit.
    
    Second, you said you were going to play music at a club.  The implication
    here is again that you were going to work "for compensation" without a
    work permit.  The idea of the "free gig" didn't come across.
    
    Basically, you didn't answer the questions the way the Customs inspector
    wanted.  Add to that the fact that there was obviously a problem with
    language and hey presto.  Now, the inspector should not have shouted
    at you, but that's one of those things.
    
    When you cross any border in any direction, you have to answer the
    questions in the right way!  There are keywords and phrases that the
    customs and immigration officers pick up on that can result in your
    getting the 3rd degree.
    
    Please don't condemn Canada for one bad experience.
    
    Stuart

    Stuart! I assume you made it past the Yankee border guards and are
    noting from Colorado.  It's good to see your unique style pop up here
    agai, with barely an interruption...
    
    -Stephen

    
    
    	You did state you were going to be singing Quebec national songs I
    would hope. There is no room for any other.
    
    
    :-)
    
    mike

If you would have sang the song "Gens du pays" by Gilles Vigneault, then they
would have let you in at the border, no questions asked.

/Mario

    Re: .1
    
    I am the original author of the e-mail message which was posted as the
    base note.
    
    Reread the base note carefully.  I spelled out in that note that I
    stated I was looking for a "free stage" gig, IF I could find one.
    
    The fact is, that in every question insinuating that I was doing any
    kind of work for hire, that I made it quite clear that I was not doing
    any work for money.
    
    There is NO EXCUSE for the type of treatment I received crossing the
    border to Canada.  But I'm not holding it against Canadians.  It's a
    government thing, and I will pursue this matter with the US State 
    Department and with Prime Minister Mulrooney.  
    
    I STILL love you guys more than ever.  You can come down and visit us
    in the States anytime you like, and of course, you will be treated much
    better than _I_ was crossing your border.
    
    Regards,
    
    
    Bill

    Hi Bill ...
    
    I realize that you were looking for a "free stage" gig ... but the
    problem is that the customs officers were obviously convinced that
    you may be looking for some paid work. 
    
    I have personally crossed the border many times and have always been
    treated respectfully every time, even when the subject of a secondary
    customs search.  However, I have known people be searched and made
    to feel very humiliated going into Canada and going into the USA too.
    I've seen cars stripped by US customs ... right down to stripping the
    upholstery out of the seats because they suspected something.
    
    As I said, there's no reason that a customs officer shouldn't treat
    you with respect, even if he hasn't understood you.  But, at the
    same time, this kind of search and interrogation is something you
    almost have to expect when you cross an international border.
    
    Personally, I am sorry you were treated badly ... but all I can say
    is that something happened in your discussions that made them suspicious
    anyway, better luck next time!
    
    Writing to Mulroney probably won't help ... but you could write to
    Minister for Employment and Immigration, House of Commons, Ottawa.
    
    
    Stuart

    Re: .6
    
    Thanks for a very kind reply.  That helped.  
    
    I was disappointed because I felt that our two countries should work
    more closely and easily together and to facilitate easy access for
    travel between our borders to each other's country.
    
    Your border guard made me feel like a common criminal carrying some
    kind of contraband.  
    
    I felt it would be good to share the experience so others will know
    that this kind of stuff happens.
    
    It sure enlightened me anyway.  And I found it to be a deterrent to
    planning future vacation visits to your country.  Vacations are for
    fun - not getting the daylights scared out of you at the border.
    
    Anyway, it's nice to get positive feedback from a Canadian about this. 
    Keep in mind, if you guys didn't have such a great country, I wouldn't be
    trying to go there in the first place.
    
    Think of the millions of dollars of revenue that Canada could get if
    they really tried to make Americans welcome up there...
    
    Sincerely,
    
    
    Bill Slater

I don't know about Canada, but musicians who come to the U.S. on tourist visas
may not sing or play musical instruments in any commercial establishment,
whether they are paid for their performance or not.

/john

    It's to bad Customs was not in the Christmas mood when you entered
    Canada.  It is a very demeaning experance to have to submit to.  It so
    happens that Customs is one of my accounts and I can tell you from
    experance that there are as many more stories about going into the good old
    U. S. of A. than there are of trying to get into The Great White North. 
    This is because more people cross your border than ours.  We must all
    remember that some people have off days and that Customs is a high
    stress job.  As a matter of fact Customs personal are trying to get
    permission to carry guns!  So look out next time!  Just fooling.  
    
    As to how you felt in Quebec Eh. Well you are lucky someone did not
    pass their foot through your hass.  (don't everyone get excited. I'm a
    5th generation French Canadian and I can make fun of being French and 
    English if I want.)   I think your
    reception at the border put you in the wrong frame of mind for Quebec. 
    More people from the US go to ski and party there than Canadains.  If
    you are in the mood some time you all come on back now and we'll make
    it to you. 
    
    
    PS  The best answer at Customs is a short answer.
    
    

    RE: Bill

    I have flown on the Digital Charter from Ottawa to Hanscomb AFB many
    times and believe me, you don't want to say the wrong thing to the
    Customs Officer there (who seems to be a permanent fixture). You answer 
    "yes sir" and "no sir", don't try to be jovial about anything, you'll
    be sorry and he always looks at everybody's luggage. If I told this guy
    that I was looking for a free gig he would slit my nostrils open, saw
    my leg off and pull my liver out!And then he might get angry and nail
    my head to the floor! I've learned that one syllable answers work best when 
    crossing the border. Coming back from Hanscomb has always been a piece of 
    cake so far.

    If Stuart had been the customs officer and you had mentioned that you
    were going to visit the Grand Canal, you would have been put to death
    by garden weasel.... ;-)

    Glenn

    The "Open border" that we all want, unfortunately, isn't in the
    minds of our politicians on either side ... They seem to be aiming
    for an "Open Border with a few exceptions ..."
    
    Technically, even crossing the border to receive training is 
    working and customs can cause all kinds of hassles about that too
    so it is quite possible that working for no remuneration would still
    be considered working and require a permit.
    
    I have recently had experiences with US Customs (I am currently
    working in Colorado Springs on a Free Trade work visa) and the
    treatment I received from US Customs and INS has been great.  So
    too have Canadian Customs during my 1 hr trips across the border
    trying to sort out paperwork.

      Another reply to base note:: the customs border types are part
      of a bureaucracy, the MOST bureaucratic of bureaucracies. 
            
   1- the "jeckyl and hyde" character change is typical of US
      border, Canadian border, any border.  You just MUST avoid
      pushing the hot buttons. 
   
   2- I think what the guards were trying to tell you by asking the
      question 15 times was: "You have pushed a hot button.... Please
      try a different answer... PLEASE try a different answer..." 
   
   3- I have several friends and acquaintances who have tried going
      from Canada to U.S with musical instruments, some with amateur
      intentions, some professional.  Even more of a hot button the
      other way.  They all became VERY careful about what they said.
      The jobs of U.S. musicians are VERY well protected!  
   
      Seems it's next to IMPOSSIBLE unless you avoid all signs that
      you might be professional, and can give some corroboration
      that you are NOT a pro.  The US president must be a musician
      ;-).

>    Reread the base note carefully.  I spelled out in that note that I
>    stated I was looking for a "free stage" gig, IF I could find one.
 
	There's me thinking a "free stage" gig was where you din't pay to be
	in the audience - free listening - I still thought the musicians were 
	paid......ho hum
    
>    I STILL love you guys more than ever.  You can come down and visit us
>    in the States anytime you like, and of course, you will be treated much
>    better than _I_ was crossing your border.
 

	I remember trying to get into the US - and I had a VALID work visa.
	.......it was an absolute nightmare, 10 hours of qizzing and 
	questioning with jet-lag is not nice.
	Of course, the courtesy car had then gone, and it was 4am in the 
	morning...............

	Then witness the "hospitality" of cab drivers who won't lift your
	bags into the boot (trunk) because they say they are too heavy,
	and porters who won't carry them because there's no lift to the 1st 
	(2nd) floor, and waitresses that are nasty because they don't think
	you left enought tip............
	...............however, I did not give up, I enjoyed the time I spent
	in the US, and learnt to choose what I did wisely, and ignore the
	nasties.
	(oh yes, I didn't know "American" either)

	My brother also had a very bad time when he came to see me. He hadn't
	eaten the apple that he took with him on the 'plain - they threatened 
	him with prosecution for trying to import farm produce, and I'm
	not kidding.  They cut the lining of his jacket and suitcase, and 
	emptied all his luggage out., and went through loads of questioning.
	He was 4 hours before he got through - and he had a valid visitors
	visa.....................something you don't need for the UK.

	The only problem I had with Canada trying to get in, is that they were 
	very rude when you smoked (there were no "no smoking" signs).
	It got quite funny, 'cause niether was there anywhere to put it out, so
	Dave stood on it, and they told him off for littering.......
	And you needed a quarter for the trolley for the bags.....where an earth
	are you meant to get one of those, the banks only issue paper foreign 
	money.
	
	Heather

    As previous replies indicated, if the border guards are a wee bit
    suspicious, they WILL pass you trough the grinder.  
    
    I once went trough with my two brothers, at that time my younger
    brother did not have any ID with him because he did not yet have his
    driver's permit and there is no need to carry any ID usually, anyway
    they searched my vehicule for a good hour while they asked the same
    questions over and over (why no ID?).  We went trough after the 3rd
    degree and we laugh about it now.
    
    The lessons I have learned going trough borders are to declare at least
    one item of no value, like a jar of peanut butter and always be polite
    precise and consistent in your answers.
    
    Jean
    

    When I was in university, I was fortunate enough to have a summer job
    that paid me enough money for my tuition fees, books, two pairs of
    jeans and a two week camping holiday in Florida before classes started.
    
    On our way back to Montreal in 72 we crossed the border at exactly the
    start of the 2nd period of the first CANADA-RUSSIA game. We stopped to
    declare goods we bought in the States. The Customs official asked how
    much we were bringing in. I said I had about $300.00 worth of stuff. He
    had a look at one item, asked me how much I paid for it. I said "$75".
    He said, "If you'd shopped around for it I'm sure you could have found
    it for $60." Anyway, to make a long story a bit shorter, he did this
    with every item I had until the total of all my purchases was below the
    legal limit. He said that he was just saving Canada money because the
    cost of filling in and processing the required forms would be more than
    the revenue that would have been generated. 
    
    Not only that but he got to get back to the game earlier.
    
    How's that for cooperation. Mind you we were all Canadians so that
    probably made a difference.
    
    Ted.

    
    Glen I found your Hanscomb story amusing, only because I've experienced
    that old fossil of the customs world many times. Bag search each and
    every time and he has absolutely no sense of hunour!!!
    
    Les
    

Bill -

I'm an American, living in New Hampshire.  I've visited Canada numerous times,
both from this area, and when I lived in the Pacific Northwest.  I can say,
with no reservations, that I have never been treated rudely by any 
Canadien border official.  I have, howevever, been treated rudely by
American border officials as I came back into the country.

I know of much worse incidents then the one you describe.  Friends of mine,
while crossing back to the U.S., were detained - their car searched 
thoroughly (they had been backpacking in Canada and the U.S. Customs folks
took all their packs and equipment apart).   For no reason at all.   

Not a great experience, but from the sounds of it, not a real bad one
either.

JD

    
    I never joke with the old fossil at Hanscombe either...and have never
    had a problem.
    
    But recently I did have a problem coming back to Ottawa
    International...  when the agent boarded the plane he asked us all
    what our citizenship was, and there were 3 Americans and 4 Canadians.
    
    He then asked the Americans what their business was in Canada, and
    they stated in fluent DECese that they were coming to Kanata to 
    "integrate". One of the Canadians sitting next to me saw the blank
    look on the customs officer's face and started to giggle, which started
    a round of laughter. After the American explained what "integration"
    was, we disembarked, whereupon every Canadian that laughed, including
    me, was forced to open luggage and discuss the origin of contents as
    well as coats and watches etc., with the Americans looking on. This
    was right on the Tarmac with the wind whipping by.
    
    Rule no.1: Dont mess with these guys. They are hired for their lack of
    humor. The rumor has it that they must endure 8 hours of the 3 stooges
    movies without a single laugh response before qualification as an
    entry level officer. And they want handguns? Gimme a break.
    
    Imagine staring at a Colt .45 while the other one checks the label
    on your socks....
    
    Sheesh!
    
    Pat

    The 'old fossil' at Hanscomb looks like he has a .38.
    
    Next time I'm there, I'll lead the passengers in a rendition of:
    
    "For he's a jolly old fossil which nobody can deny"
    
    Then I'll see you in 10 to 20....
    
    Glenn

       I've made at least 18 brief (less than 3 day visits) to Canada from
    the U.S.A in the past 30 years. I've only had one major experience and
    one minor experience. The major trauma was when crossing into Canada
    with a drunken passenger in my car (I was driving completely sober).
    note: The Canadians held our ID's in their possession and made a Phone
    call to their Headquarters. While waiting an hour for their Phone call
    to be returned with whatever info they'd requested (Database search?),
    they completely tour my Car apart (removed the Seats, etc.). The minor
    trauma was when crossing into Canada my very first visit as a Teenage
    (17 year old) driver who just happened to be driving a brand new Vespa
    motor scooter with a Teenage girlfriend as my passenger.
    note: The Custom Inspectors didn't believe than I'd driven that Scooter
    all the way from Massachusetts, and they questioned why a Massachusetts
    teenage boy (under age 18) was crossing into Canada with a Vermont
    teenage girl (under age 18).
    
    								regards,
    									Bob
    P.S. my Vermont girlfriend's house was just 1 mile South
    	of that Canadian border checkpoint.
    

    
    Glen I understand "Breaking rocks in the hot sun" is still sung at
    Levinworth
    
    Les
    

    Tips on crossing borders without hassle.
    
    1.  Never bring any high tech items, you could be planning to sell it.
    
    2.  Never act like anything like work will be attempted.
    
    3.  Always be courteous (sp) and use "SIR!" or "MA'AM".
    
    4.  Have a reason for going that is plausable.  "I am going to visit
        friends in "______" or Ancestral home.
    
    5.  Do not loose your cool, or let them upset you.
    
    I have traveled back and forth across parts of Canada forever and I
    have never had problems, more upon reentry to the USA.  I lived in
    Sault Sainte Marie, Michigan and I would go to New York via Canada as 
    the route is shorter, and it used to be cheaper.
    
    Dave

    Re -.1
    
    I wholeheartally agree with the last note.  Treat Customs officials
    like the demi-gods that they are.  (There's nothing more enjoyable as a
    Body Cavity Search by a federal civil servant!)  
    I ran into a small problem crossing the border in a private aircraft.  
    
    I'd rented a plane in Abbottsford, B.C. for a flight to Roseburg, Or.
    After a previous bad experience clearing Customs at Boeing Feild in
    Seattle, (we encountered a customs agent that made us pay a $25 'user fee'
    in U.S. Cash [user fee = *bribe*])  My friend and I decided to make
    our first point of entry to be Bellingham, WA.
    
    We landed at BLI, taxied to the U.S. Customs house.  As I assembelled
    the pile of paperwork, the customs officier wanderes out.  I'm really
    not sure what gender the officier was.  Her necklace had the name
    "Theresa" on it but I'm not sure she wasn't once Terry.  
    
    She was the harriest woman I'd ever seen, and spoke with the deepest voice. 
    I was scared out of my mind, because I thought I'd start busting out
    laughing during the aircraft inspection. We were cleared without a
    hitch, but my faith in the U.S. Customs Service was waining, 
    
    After the inspection, my friend and I climbed in the plane, closed the
    door.  I said, "Welcome to the United States".  We both busted up
    laughing for about five minutes.
    
    The next time I flew that trip. I cleared in Portland!
                                                                

    The replies here have been VERY educational.  Thank you _all_ for
    helping understand why I was likely to have difficulties at the border.
    
    Since it looks like I won't be coming up there to play music, I will
    post my set list here, so you can see what you're missing (or not
    missing).  I only hoped to share some mostly American folk music with
    Canadians.
    
    It might be worth mentioning that in 1983, at the Kerrville Folk
    Festival in Kerrville, Texas (there in the beautiful Texas Hill
    Country), that the theme was "welcoming our Canadian Neighbors and
    their Folk Music".  Sadly, it was the last concert that Stan Rogers
    ever played at because he died in a plane fire en route back to Canada
    when the festival was over.  I was at that festival.
    
    Anyway, my set list is attached.  
    
    Big American Hugs to all of you (since Clinton is President it's okay, 
    now!),
    
    
    Wild Bill Slater
    
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Greetings:
    
    People have been curious about what I play and the instuments I play it
    on.  So here's a list attached below.  I'm getting more inspired by the
    day so expect to see many more songs added here in the coming months. 
    Keep in mind that I fit in well with a lot of performers on their
    songs, but these are just the ones I do when I am a solo performer -
    which is most of the time.
    
    Enjoy!
    
        
    Bill
    
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dec. 1992
    ---------
                              -= Wild Bill Slater =-
                                    Song List
                                    ---------

    Guitar                                   Key           Capo at Fret #
    --------------------------------     -------------    ----------------
    Fox On The Run                            G                 2 
    Rocky Top                                 G                 5
    Moonshiner                                G                 2
    Thirsty In The Rain                       D                 3
    I Should Have Known Better                G                 3
    Will The Circle Be Unbroken?              G                 1
    Mama Don't Allow                          G                 1
    Smile A While For Me *                    D                 1
    Too Many People, Can't Find A Job *       G                 1
    Star Of The County Down                   Am                4
    All Along The Watchtower                  Em                2
    Fabric Of Dreams                          Am                3
    Lights Of LA County                       G                 4
    Someday Soon                              G                 1
    
    * Original tune by me
    ________________________________________________________________________


    Ionian Dulcimer        Mixolydian Dulcimer          Aeolian Dulcimer
    ---------------        -------------------          ----------------
    Wildwood Flower        Harrison Town                Greensleeves
    Amazing Grace          Been All Around This World   Wayfaring Stranger
    You Are My Sunshine    Both Sides Now               Star Of The County
    Grandfather's Clock                                  Down
    Simple Gifts
    Somewhere Over The Rainbow
    Red Wing
    Ode To Joy

    Jawbone and Vocal
    -----------------
    It's A Sin To Tell A Lie
    Tennessee Stud
    Moonshiner


    Other Instruments
    -----------------
    kazoo
    jawbone
    washboard
    washtub bass (made by me!)
    maraccas
    tambourine
    llama toenails                                                     
    triangle

I was told a story by a kid from Canada.

Seems he was driving into Canada from the U.S. with all sorts of wonderful
purchases in his car.

The Customs Canada official asks him, "Do wish to declare anything?"

He thought about this for a moment and decided, no, he didn't _wish_ to
declare anything he had with him, so he answered "No."

/john