Conference kaosws::canada

    "all the money I save" will probably go to pay increased municipal
    and provincial taxes .  I heard last night on (what's left of the) CBC
    that federal transfer payments to the provinces for health care are
    going to be phased out over the next 5 years.  So, the provinces get
    to not only mis-manage the health care systems, but also pick our
    pockets!
    
    

    Anyone could give me the taste of GST?  Must be very bad.
    I still remember the years I had to study the sales receipts
    to find out how much tax I paid for whatever I bought.
    
    Thomas (was in London, Ontario)

    
    It was reported in the local paper (Sarnia Observer) that the Mayor of
    Sarnia will be registering a strong complaint with the Ontario
    Provincial government and will be recommending not collecting the newly
    imposed GST 7% tax on the latest consumer good to be hit...

    Water!
    
    The provincial government informed city officials that water levies for
    residents of Sarnia should reflect the next effect of the addition of
    7% GST minus the rebate amount (which will result in a 2-3% increase in
    water rates).
    
    I guess it makes sense to not pay GST on 6 or more doughnuts, as long
    as you don't want a glass of water to wash it down!!
    
    -doug_who_wonders_if_the_air_is_next_for_GST!

    You MUST take into account that in Sarnia, water is not "pure", in
    which case it would not be subject to the GST.  In Sarnia even the air
    has "value" added to it, now if they can only find a way to measure the
    amount used by each person, I'm sure it would be taxed in the same way.
    
    Jean
    
    

    MILKWY::MORRISON "Bob M. FXO-1/28 228-5357"      7 lines  26-JAN-1991 17:41
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Today I read in Insight, a U.S. magazine, that on Jan. 1 Canada
    imposed a 7% national sales tax on most retail purchases and on many other
    transactions. How do Canadians feel about this? Are there any provincial 
    sales taxes on top of this in any provinces, or does the national sales 
    tax replace the provincial sales taxes, if any? Will this cause an increase
    in Canadians going to the U.S. to make purchases, or do the customs rules 
    make it impossible to avoid the sales tax in this way?

    The infamous G.S.T.  ... the acronym has a number of other meanings
    but the one our benevolent government wants us to use is "Goods and
    Services Tax".  Yes, the GST applies to almost all goods and services,
    including nearly everything you buy, except most foods purchased as
    groceries.  It applies in addition to provincial sales taxes, and
    is applied before provincial taxes.  Some provinces have opted to
    charge their tax separately from the GST and others have integrated
    their tax.  Alberta, for example has no PST, so they only pay 7%.
    Quebec has modified their sales tax to cover everything the GST
    covers and the combined rate is 15.56% (Ugggh!)  Ontario has a separate
    PST of 8% on goods only, so some things have GST, others PST and some
    both!  Ontario charges their 8% on the base taxable amount.  Some
    provinces charge their PST on the final cost of the item, so in some
    cases you pay PST on top of GST!
    
    The GST is meant to replace the old Federal (or manufacturers) sales
    tax which was a very inequitable hidden tax.
    
    Most Canadians hate it ...  more Canadians living near the border will
    be shopping in the US.  They have to pay GST and duty on declared items
    brought in, but it may still be cheaper for many goods.  But we are
    an apathetic lot and we'll pay it and eventually forget about it.
    
    There's a strong possibility the rate will now be raised to help pay
    for the Canadian contingent in the Gulf.
    
    Stuart

    First of all, in Qu�bec, the PST was LOWERED from 9% to 8% and most
    goods already had an hidden federal sales tax (13.5%) so the net effect
    of both taxes is in many cases a REDUCTION.  Granted some things were
    previously not taxed and now they are (like clothes and furniture in
    Qu�bec) but taxes are there to pay for the services you and I require
    from our governements, some of those "services" you and I may not need
    but a majority of the community may.
    
    
    In the end, we all have to pay for what we buy!
    
    Jean
    

    Jean,
    
    Not wishing to get into a slanging match here, but I can assure you
    as an Ontarian that I am definitely digging deeper into my pockets now.
    Sure, a lot of companies removed the FST ... sort of, and bumped some
    prices in the meantime, so that the resultant price equations look like
    this ... where FST was applicable :
    
    New Price = Old Price - FST + Price Increase + GST
    
    &
    
    New Price = Old Price
    
    The exceptions to this are the big ticket items and the items that the
    press and so called "price watchdog" looked at specifically - these
    went down but in many cases not as much as predicted.
    
    Add to this the fact that we are now being taxed on things that were
    never taxed before.
    
    This tax was originally touted to be revenue neutral with the FST it
    replaced ... but in the rhetoric, it ended up revenue positive in
    favour of the government ... and to be honest, I think it will attract
    far more than the government thought.  The general impression is that
    this tax is going to be a cash cow, which this and successive
    governments can milk remarkably easily.
    
    There is no question about using taxes to pay for the government
    services we request, but when such a huge portion is used to pay
    interest on the debt caused by flagrant and wasteful government
    spending, it really hurts.  How MPs can have the nerve to vote
    themselves salary increases and tax-exempt expense allowances when
    the rest of us dig deeper shows poor discretion and leadership in the 
    face of stiffer taxes.
    
    As ever, when decreased government spending is announced, what they
    mean is reduced programs, instead of reduced government beaurocracy.
    For example, while the GST will bring in untold wealth, the system is
    so complicated, that the number of tax department personnel to
    administer it will rocket.  We haven't got a specific tax enforcement
    police yet, but it will no doubt come as the inaccuracies in the
    system and the tax avoiders proliferate, adding more and more cost.
    For example, for any given product ... say a widget manufactured by
    XYZ Co.
    
    XYZ Co sells widgets to a distributor for $100.00 each
     and must collect $7 tax for every widget sold.
    
    To make that Widget XYZ Co. buys plastic from JJJ Plastics and spends
     $50 in raw materials per widget and must pay $3.50 tax.
    
    XYZ can offset the Input tax (3.50) from the Output tax ($7.00) and
    remit the balance to the government ... in theory but in practice,
    they remit $7.00 and get a rebate of $3.50 ... 2 separate transactions.
    
    ABC Distributors buys widgets and distributes them to retailers in
    Anyprovince.  He pays $100 and sells them for $120.  His Input
    Tax ... the same $7 he paid XYZ to buy them, and his output tax
    $8.40 ... again two transactions ... net effect another $1.40 tax.
    
    Anyshop sells widgets it buys from ABC.  It sells widgets for $200.
    Input tax = $8.40  Output tax = $14.00  Again two transactions to
    the government ... Net paid is 5.60 .. another $5.60 total tax.
    
    John Public buys a widget for his home ... Input tax $14.00 ... Output
    tax $0.00 (he doesn't sell 'em) His total tax burden $14.00
    
    Total tax paid to the government is $14.00 and with 6 transactions with
    the government tax collector.
    
    Documentation by every level is essential ... failure to provide an
    input tax receipt costs them their input tax.  Failure to produce
    sales records that tally up with the products purchased result in
    tax evasion charges.  All in all it is an expensive way to collect
    taxes.
    
    Add the waste we are paying for already to the waste that must result
    from collecting this tax and the result is ridiculous.  I don't mind
    paying for services, but I hate paying for blatant waste.
    
    Stuart

	Ah well, and someone was trying to tell me it was the best thing since
	the Community Charge in the UK!.

	It looks remarkably like VAT, which replaced the old purchase tax. The 
	VAT rate in UK is 15%, except on food-stuffs like groceries.

	Here the customes and excise collect the VAT , they have more power than
	other government tax collectors.

	Even if you try to avoid tax, DON'T try to avoid VAT.


	Are the people who collect this the government tax dept., or another 
	dept.?

	Heather

Saw the following Sales Ad from Sears couple of weeks ago.


Item = TV
Reg. Price               = 599
With GST, New Reg. Price = 549
Sale Price               = 299
Ad said total saving     = 300

However, same item in December was also on sale at 299 with Regular
priced at 599.

I don't see the any saving on above promotion at all; I only know I
have to pay extra 7% GST on 299 to buy that TV.

I saw numerous similar examples in sales promotion from different
companys (except car sales).

	<<Even if you try to avoid tax, DON'T try to avoid VAT.

Heather, is it still possible for non-residents who visit the UK to get
the VAT returned by filling in those VAT-voucher-thingies?

I would think that non-residents visiting Canada should also get the GST
returned but I'll bet that the government will deny it.  No wonder it's
called the Gouge and Screw Tax.

Pat (4 months and counting)

    Governements are your and my elected representatives, if you are not
    happy about what they are doing, just vote them out! and instead of
    voting for a party, vote for the person who will be speak FOR you,
    right now, I would NOT vote for ANY of the major parties because they
    ALL have the same line.
    
    Saying that GST is not wanted is wastfull, we MUST stop spending
    tomorrow's money FIRST.  Our representatives got a clear message when
    we said that new nuclear submarines ($8,000,000,000 and maybe more)
    were not needed by the country, now we must tell them that we will not
    pay for other unneeded weapons or programs until we have managed the
    debt we now have.
    
    The only thing that worries me about GST is that the income generated
    will not go towards reducing the deficit, but it will spawn more
    spending for our own "good".
    
    Like the fram filter commercial:
    
    		"you can pay me now or you can pay me later"
    
    
    Jean
    

    The GST is a value-added tax.  Most European countries that have one
    use the acronym VAT, but Canada and  New Zealand use the acronym GST.
    
    Glenn

    Vote them out. Good idea.
    
    Waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting ...
    
    Is it time yet ?
    
    darn.
    
    Scooter

	Yup, you can get the vat-exempt or whatever forms, and claim back
	through customs, though I don't know how.

	Most touristy places add 15% on the prices anyway!

	Heather

    Pat,
    Yes visitors to Canada get the GST back. All they need to do is report
    to Canada customs before they leave, show receipts for their purchases
    and they will get it refunded.
    
    Orval
    

	Re: Jean

	Vote who out? It really does not matter who is in, they
	all are flagrantly wasteful with the taxpayers money.

	I am quite sick of all government parties that now exist,
	they are _all_ driven by big money in the end (when they
	get elected) and only a major catastrophy or rebellion
	will change anything in this country.

	Voting? What's that!

	Democratically Yours,

	Charlie

    Oh ya?
    
    Well what about the Grand Canal?
    
    
    Just thought I'd slip it in.....

	Okay Glen, thats ENOUGH!!!


	Put your money where you mouth is,




	Get out there and start digging!!!!

	;-)

    Hey, attention � mon ami Glenn!
    
    Le GRAND CANAL sera le point de ralliement de tous les hommes de bonne
    volont�e, il surpassera toutes les querelles et les guerres, alors il
    ne faut pas en perler en mal ou discr�diter ses ap�tres.
    
    Jean
    
    un deux trois (j'ai d� ajouter ces trois mot � cause de la TPS)
    

    Merci Jean.
    
    
    C'est le temps pour faire des whirly-twirlies.
    
    
    Ap�tre Glenn

.20   I agree.  If we had the Grand Canal extended to the Gulf
      all the quarrels and the war would end.

.21   No it's not!!!

Pat

    Jean,
    
    I fully intend to vote "for the man and not the party" and regularly
    do so ... but the problem is that in spite of good intentions, once
    they are elected, they become like every other politician and start
    toeing the party line in the end, and we then have typically 4 years
    before we can get rid of them.  One of the best things we could do
    for government is to make the elected representatives "continuously
    responsible" for his actions, thus forcing free votes in parliament.
    
    Also, if I had my way, I'd have an extra entry on a ballot paper
    
    "None of the above"
    
    to show my displeasure with the system.  At the moment all I can do is
    abstain from voting or spoil my ballot, which says next to nothing.
    If sufficient numbers voted "None of the above" it would show our
    politicians what we really think of them.  As it is we feel compelled
    to vote for the best of a bad lot.
    
    As I stated before, I have no problem with paying taxes where required,
    but I hate paying for blatant waste and inefficient systems.  Our
    predecessors mortgaged us to the hilt and we're paying for it now ...
    but there is a limit to what people can pay, and to see, even after
    paying more and more that our indebtedness keeps growing at the same
    rate you begin to wonder.  After all, your bank won't let you take
    a loan without evidence of your being able to pay it back, and the
    government isn't doing the same; they're taking more and more loans and not
    paying them back.
    
    As stated before the GST is virtually identical to VAT except that it
    is collected by Revenue Canada Taxation rather than Canada Customs,
    and currently doesn't seem to have a lot of teeth for non-payers.
    (yet)
    
    You can only get back VAT paid in Britain on items being exported.
    On goods and services used there, you pay.  Moreover, you have to
    be able to claim back something in the order of at least UKL50.00
    due to the cost of the administrivia.
    
    Greatest rip-off since sliced bread.
    
    Stuart

    In Qu�bec, we had Le Parti Rhinoc�ros (Rhino party) there only to
    ridicule federal politicians, at one point they even had enough
    candidates that the CBC HAD to give them air time, it was hilarious
    because most of the candidates were artists and commedians.  One clown
    (a real one at that) even came in second in one riding ahead of the
    conservative representative.
    
    We the silent majority find that politicians don't take our side
    because we only signify our choice on election day, it may be time to
    attend political assemblies and to write to our MPs and tell THEM what
    WE want.  After all it is THEIR job to do what WE tell them to do, not
    the other way around.
    
    Jean
    

    The Rhino party was not exclusive to Quebec. I voted Rhino in 1980
    in Nova Scotia.
    
    Scooter

    There were a number of silly parties in Engalnd also ...
    
    I wonder what a member of such a party would actually DO if elected.
    
    Even by writing to our MPs we still have a problem, in as much as they
    are affiliated to parties and nominated by their party's riding
    associatoion.  Thus for them to continue "in power", not only do they
    have to satisfy the electorate, they also have to satisfy the local
    party association, who will follow the party line, and turf a candidate
    who votes his own conscience too much.
    
    So, you say get involved with the local party assn ... but the hitch
    there is that most of us do not have the time, and is a major reason
    why we elect representatives.  
    
    Basically, the parties have too much power.
    
    Stuart

>    There were a number of silly parties in Engalnd also ...
>    
>    I wonder what a member of such a party would actually DO if elected.
 
	What do you mean if? we have one!

	A member of the Monster Raving Looney Party is a member of the
	local South Devon Council.
	
	He is short and round, wears white, a fake gun on his hip, and a
	white hat. If you have ever seen Boss Hog in the Dukes of hazzard, they
	could be twins.

	He runs the local pub.
   
	Do you have party whips? our local Liberal (or whatever they're called)
	don't have a whip, so are not forced to tow-the-party-line.

	When I have written, I have always received a reply, and have also 
	received a visit in the evening to discuss the issues I raised.

	You would be surprised at the small amount of effort required. So many 
	people don't do anything at all, that a small respose often has a great
	impact.

	Give it a go first.

	Heather

    re .23
    
>    You can only get back VAT paid in Britain on items being exported.
>    On goods and services used there, you pay.  Moreover, you have to
>    be able to claim back something in the order of at least UKL50.00
>    due to the cost of the administrivia.
    
    There is no �50 restriction in the law. Many retailers are not prepared
    to go to the trouble of providing the necessary paperwork unless your
    purchase is above a level. On my recent trip to Britain I was able to
    reclaim VAT on a �40 purchase.
    
    Tony

    Headline on the front page of today's Citizen;
    
         Sperm now GST exempt ... but books aren't
    
     is't that a "relief" !