Conference hydra::dejavu

    It's Greek for "knowledge".  Almost anything might therefore take such
    a name -- from a spiritual discipline or community to a data base.

    There were a bunch of religions in what is now the Middle East at
    around the beginning of the common era, known as the "Gnostic"
    religions.  They had as a common thesis that the universe is a trap or
    a prison created by an evil deity, for trapping divine sparks of a
    great/good deity who is/was far removed from the universe.  Escape from
    the prison may only be accomplished (generally only at death) by people
    who have gained detailed knowledge of the trap (gnosis).  Depending on
    the specific cult/religion/sect gnosis might be mystical knowledge or
    might be intellectual knowledge of the "astral" plane one finds oneself
    at upon death.  Some (though not most) gnostic religions were
    Christian, and emphasis has therefore been made in traditional accounts
    of gnosticism as a Christian heresy.

					Topher

    Re .1
    
    As I understood it, modern scholarship was first aware of Gnosticism
    only as a collection of Christian heresies, and it was not until recent
    decades that people discovered there were plenty of pre- and non-
    Christian Gnostic groups.  Is this correct?
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    
    Re.0
    
    For some reading on the subject, check out "The Gnostic Gospels" by
    Elaine Pagels.
    
    Cindy

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    As long as i understood (somebody told me) the GNOSIS has three main
    points :
    
    	- THE DEATH (internal, not fisically)
        - THE BORN  (thru some internal works and transmutation with your
                     partner [husband/wife] it requires some acknolegdement
                     on white tantra, kundalini,etc...)
        - THE SACRIFICATION  (to give all info to everybody with no
                              differences, as long as you want it)
    
     
    And the target is to come back to GOD with the knoledge.
    
    
    The infos are enough turns you an ANGEL or a DEVIL... depends on you...
    one side gives you the liberty and the other turns you a slave both sides 
    gives POWER, you can use it as your wish........
    
    
    VERY INTERESTING...
    
    cl�udio
    

RE: .5 (cl�udio)

    Gnosticism is not a single religion but many different, related
    religions.  What you describe may well be the central thesis of *a*
    gnostic religion, but it is not the central idea which is common to the
    various gnostic religions -- salvation through knowledge (gnosis),
    revealed or intellectually acquired, and a "style" of cosmology making
    this kind of salvation reasonable.  This is in sharp contrast to the
    kind of Christianity which "won out" (principaly non-gnostic, though
    with traces of gnosticism): salvation through faith.  It is less in
    conflict with mainstream Judaism, ("salvation," to use a quite
    inappropriate term for reasons of paralelism, through deeds), and in
    fact, one of the principle strains of mystical Judaism can be classed
    as gnostic.

					Topher

RE: .2 (Earl)

>    As I understood it, modern scholarship was first aware of Gnosticism
>    only as a collection of Christian heresies, and it was not until recent
>    decades that people discovered there were plenty of pre- and non-
>    Christian Gnostic groups.  Is this correct?

    That is not quite my understanding.

    Many non-Christian sources existed but were mostly ignored.  Gnosticism
    was *defined* by Western scholars as a Christian heresy (in fact *the*
    Christian heresy which forced what became The Church to get its act
    together and create a central authority, decide on what literature was
    cannonical, determine that there was such a thing as Christian heresy,
    etc.).  Other works which did not place those same ideas in a Christian
    context were classified as "precursors of gnosticism" or "influenced
    by gnosticism."

    This became harder to maintain when a large library of gnostic
    writings, mostly or all translated into Koptic was discovered in the
    1950s.  Some of these were Christian writings and some were not, and
    you had to get quite deep into many of them until you discovered
    whether or not, by the old criteria, they were "gnostic" (Christian) or
    not.

    Some modern scholars still persist, despite all the evidence to the
    contrary, in viewing gnosticism as fundamentally Christian with some
    peripheral influence on non-Christian religions thinking.  They still
    define gnosticism as Christian and deal with the other stuff as
    "related movements".  This seems to be wholly motivated by a feeling
    that since Christian/non-Christian later became an important
    distinction in understanding religion, it must be considered a
    fundamental distinction at that time as well.  I rather suspect that
    many Christian gnostics of that period would have felt that they had
    more in common with contemporary non-Christian gnostics then with
    non-gnostic Christians -- certainly they seemed to be more influenced
    by their writings.

					Topher

    
    REP. .6 (topher)
    
    I know that gnosis can be found in every where (i mean knowledge) but i
    specifically want to hear more about the gnosis (ancient school or
    religion i don't know) which was CHANGED by SAMAEL AUN WEOR by 1940 or
    1950 (decade).  

RE: .8

    I'll see if I can find anything.

    At a guess, I'd say that this was either influenced by or was a branch
    of Jewish mystical thought.  What you say about it has a distinctly
    Jewish/Lurian feel to it.  The "change" may have involved an explicit
    recognition of the gnostic roots of the school, since this had
    basically been forgotten until the previously mentioned find of a
    Koptic gnostic library refocussed attention on gnostism as a religious
    movement distinct from Christianity.  The time frame is right.

				    Topher

    hi, my interest about it is really big... is it so hard to find out
    somebody to talk about it????
    
    is this issue problematic?? still waiting....
    

    re: .10,
    
    Just a long shot ... did you try asking in GRIM::RELIGION, too ?
    
    Maybe somebody who reads there who doesn't read this conference has a line
    on it.
    
    							todd

    
    Re.10 (Goncalves)	
    
    >wake up people
    
    With a comment like that, even if I did know more than I entered a few
    notes ago, I probably wouldn't bother to contribute any more.
    
    There are more polite ways of requesting additional information.
    
    Cindy

    RE.12 (CINDY)
    
    WORDS CAN have thousands of meanings....you just got yours....i do
    really feel bad when a person do not understand what i am trying to
    describe, i am sorry its my fault. But if you did really knew more than
    you entered a few notes ago i am SURE that you would not send me that
    comment, those words have some special meaning.So i don't think i was
    unpolitelling requesting infos. Any way i sorry if you did not
    understand me .
    
    cl�udio

    Claudio, it is obvious from your grammar, that English is not your
    primary language. That is not your fault or your problem. I will just
    say that "Wake up" in American English (I'm not sure about the Queen's
    English) is an idiom for telling someone thay are to stupid or naive to
    get the point you are trying to make. Again, as seems obvious, if you
    don't speak or write or read English on a continous basis, then you
    might not know this.
    
    Beyond that, I will say that I know nothing of information that you are
    trying find out.
    
    PJ

    
    Re.13
    
    Claudio,
    
    Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the meaning of your words "wake
    up" then.  I agree that there are many meanings...
    
    Cindy

    DEAR FRIENDS...
    
         I would like to clarify my last re., maybe i choose some wrong
    words to express my feelings. I AM SO SORRY. When i have used the
    expression "wake up" i was just trying to transmit another idea. I am
    sure that the gnostic people would understand. For the gnostics it
    means... " When the consience comes to light ", it is the same as
    you get into meditation. I would like to thanks the re.14 (PJ) because
    it became to clear to me that i was stupid.
        
    thank you who understood me.
    
    cl�udio
    
    	      
    
    
    
    

    Again a language barrier. Claudio, you are not stupid, never, ever say
    that. I can't be sure, but I believe you primary language is Italian or
    Spanish. Saying you're stupid is putting negative feelings onto
    yourself and that's something you should never do. (Take it from one
    who's been there not to long ago) I would be lucky to be able to say
    hello in your language and not have it misconstrued. This is no one's
    fault and you are not stupid. 
    
    I don't want to rathole this topic, but please never call yourself
    stupid. Misinformed or "I donn't understand" might be better.
    
    PJ

           
    Claudio,
    
    I, too, am sorry.  Clearly we were not using the same definition of the
    phrase.
    
    My apologies, 
    
    Cindy

    Claudio,
    
    I had some involvement last year with a group of Gnostics following the
    teachings of Samael aun Weor.
    
    I live in London (UK) and saw a notice about a talk on Tibetan Buddism
    at my local library and went along.  The talk was free and very
    interesting, and was followed by a number of other talks on things
    which were to me totally unrelated but all fascinating, such as
    Astrology, the Tarot, the Pyramids, the lost city of Atlantis etc.  The
    group of people running these were Spanish and spoke broken English but
    were nevertheless quite understandable.   They kept saying they would
    run a course, which we were all invited to attend, and which would be
    charged for (#20 a month).  After about half a dozen "public" sessions,
    the numbers dwindled from about 20 to about 6 and we paid for the
    talks.  For various personal reasons, I was looking for something
    spiritual in my life.  Having been brought up as a Catholic, I had
    rejected Catholicism at around 16 because of the apalling amount of
    hypocrisy I had encountered, and had never subsequently followed any
    kind of religion.  I was totally fascinated by all this stuff, and
    couldn't get enough of it.  
    
    They had a couple of books translated from
    Spanish written by Samael aun Weor, which I bought and read.  The
    Gnostics used to talk about destroying your "egos".  Egos are bad
    things like hate, laziness, lust, anger etc which you are supposed to
    get rid off so that you can get in touch with the Divine spark within
    you - they called this the "Essence" - the part that is linked with
    god.
    
    In July, they started talking about a seminar which they were holding
    in August in London.  They said this was an annual event taking place
    in a different country each year.  I decided immediately that I wanted
    to go to it.  It was to run for 4 days.  It was made clear that we
    could only go if they felt we were ready, and there was a cost
    involved.  There was also a play that would be shown at the seminar
    which we could take part in and I decided to do this.  During the
    rehearsals, I began to get some "bad vibes", mainly due to what I
    perceived to be an unspoken assumption that we had no other comittments
    in our lives, and could turn up for this at a moments notice and spend
    hours at a time hanging round.  However, all the Gnostics were
    absolutely wonderful - very warm, kind, caring etc - you would have to
    be odd not to feel a great deal of affection for these people.
    
    When the seminar started, we were not warned beforehand, but you were
    not allowed out from 10:00 am until lunch at about 2:00 pm, even to go
    to the loo (this is a major problem for me!)  There were about 700
    people there from all over the world, and we had small radios for
    simultaneous translation.  The speaker was the "Head" of this movement,
    a Spaniard called Ernesto Baron, and I was told his wife Cloris would
    also speak.  The adulation on their entry surprised and disturbed me,
    but when he started speaking, if was worse.  The goal was clearly to
    make people feel really bad about themselves.  We were asked to fill in
    questionnaires which I assumed were confidential, but he then read
    out selected ones, told people to come up onto the stage, and publicly
    humiliated them!  The afternoon session went on for about 4 or 5 hours
    again without a break.  
    
    When I left to go home, I was very uneasy.  The next morning some
    people did not turn up.  We had a "roll call" for all 700 people to see
    who had dropped out.  I spoke to a woman next to me who was also very
    uneasy.  She said she'd got involved in something similar when in the
    US called EST (at that time I'd never heard of EST and knew nothing
    about it).  During the morning session, things got worse.  People were
    invited to come on to the stage and confess their vices to everyone -
    which people did - and then the teachers who had been teaching us were
    told to do the same, which they did, clearly with a great deal of pain
    and tears.  I was absolutely devasted.  I started to cry and this woman
    next to me (who'd told me about EST) held my hand.  After about half an
    hour she got up and walked out, although they tried to stop her.  I
    left at lunchtime, and have never been back.  
    
    I felt totally betrayed by the people who had told me that this seminar
    was "a beautiful thing".  I suppose I'll never know whether I did the
    right thing by walking  out .....!
    
    Krys
       

    re: .19 (Krys)
    
         You did fine.
    
    
    Frederick
    

    re: .19,
    
    	Congratulations on keeping your integrity.
    
    	From your description, there was nothing particularly
    	unique about that group, they followed what seems to me
    	is a very common pattern of induction and psychological 
    	conditioning within a spiritual framework.
    
    	If you decide that was what you wanted, you can always 
    	find groups that will supply it.  If not, then
    	you managed to get away with your mind and emotions intact,
    	and that's not something everyone can say.
    
    							todd

    re .19 (Krys)
    
    	krys,
    
    	Some time ago i had contact with some gnostics and i learned some
    interesting things...
    
    	Mr samael Aun Weor dead on 1970s, before that he put another person
    at his placed (V.M. RABOLU). When S.A.W. dead some people did not accept
     Mr. RABOLU  as the new leader. After that The gnosis had a radical
    division. I had contact with the people wich was following the rabolu's
    teaching. What you sad about destroying "your egos" is according with
    the teachs but DEFINILY to his group nobody has to pay a penny!!
    Because if they teach they do it because they want to, and that is a
    part of their sacrifice (to give the teachs to who wants, completilly
    FREE). The parts of destroying the "egos" it is only your matter, it
    does not concern to anybody else, i mean you have your work and that is
    your problem, you do it if you want, nobody may force anybody to do
    things against their wish, if you do it you are a BLACK MAGICIAN (bad
    boy). Every body is completilly free to do what you want to.
    
    	If that group you had mentioned did that what you told for sure
    they are not GNOSTIC they are just STUPIDS who thinks to have the
    knowledge. It goes against the S.A.W. teachings, they can be called
    PSEUDO-GNOSTICS.
    
    	The gnostics just give us TOLLS to work, i mean you will learned
    basic things to walk by your legs, ex: dimension, to get out of body,
    medicin, universal mechnical movemnts, sexual energy transmutation
    (kundalini), to get your body into the 4th dimension,
    etc...,etc....etc.. these are basic to get your self-realization and
    you don't have to say a word about your self experiences. Its very
    interesting .
    
    	BE ALERT THERE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT PROMISSES THE HEAVEN, BUT JUST
    WANT YOU MONEY AND/OR YOUR SOUL.
    
    "THE PATH TO THE HELL IS FULL OF MISTAKEN PEOPLE" (who thinks to be
    correct) i don't think i'm wright, just a message.
           I'm  sorry for my broken english.
                        
    
    cl�udio