Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    If I was working for them... I think such an activity would keep
    me loyal.... very very loyal. 
    
    Many organizations have used the "do what we want you to do or
    come to a horrible end" approach to management....ill stay away
    from examples for now. 
    
    I am interested in their use of "SATAN" in the artical however...
    Were they worshiping a deity with that name? Or was it another
    one that the press just labled "satan" because it wasn't "Christian"?
    
    What things led them to believe the slayings were part of a worship
    religious event and not ritual killings similar to mafia type ones
    in NYC?
    
    I am not by ANY means defending any one of those acts done... I
    am just curious as to how any press person arrives at the term
    "Satanic" what tell tail signs are there that confirm it?
                           
    thanks 
    
    Craig

    Craig, 
    
    Apparently, the suspects confessed that these were satanic sacrifices
    that would give them power to a.) avoid getting caught smuggling
    b.) stay alive and c) make lots of money. 
    
                               .....sick 
    
      

    I just got a glimpse of this in the Boston Globe this morning, but
    there it was described as "Voodoo rights with human sacrifice". 
    Although negative voudoun is not much of an improvement over Satanism
    it is *not* Satanism, and in a broader societal context means something
    rather different.  (Also I have to wonder whether or not it is really
    voudoun or one of the related religions -- a negative Santorini cult is
    supposed to be widely practiced within the Latin drug culture, for
    example).
    
    					Topher

    Re:  .-1
    
    Could you explain the benefits of distinguishing amongst Voudoun,
    Santorini and so on?   My first reaction was to wonder at how one
    could be academic in the face of such monstrous activity, but I
    now think it could be worth while, if I knew a little more.
    
    By the way, NPR this morning called the cult Santorini, as I recall. 
    
    What should our reaction be to this and other evil activity?
    
    Donald Reinke

    re: .4
    
         What do you mean what should our reaction be?
    
         Take responsibility for your feelings and express them.  Don't
    look around and ask for permission for them or for how others think
    they should be.  "Be brutally honest with yourself, tactfully truthful
    with others."  You already know others have an impact on you.  Know
    that you also have an impact on others and work from there.
    What do YOU feel you should do with "evil"?  THAT's what is important
    here.  Change the reality if you don't like it...change yourself
    and the reality will change.
    
    
    Frederick
    

Frederick, to be brutally honest, I think that was reaction as in "the
United States reacted to the terrorist's taunts by blowing him to bits."

Perry

n.b. I don't mean, of course, that we should blow these people to bits.
Offering their hearts to the sun god ala the Aztecs would do...    

    Re:  .5

        >>>What do you mean what should our reaction be?<<<<<<
    
    That was my attempt to open discussion about how one should deal with
    people and powers such as described in .0 and such as I have
    encountered.  I used what seems to have come over as a wimpy
    construction because I didn't want to presume to put a direction on the
    conversation. Since you've challenged me, however, here goes: 

    In the immediate presence of a person practicing black magic, and at
    other times when I get the feeling that power is being mis-used I have
    attempted (1) to center myself and (2) to transmute the power for the
    highest good.  (3) I have used my body as a sort of transformer,
    lifting up my hands and blessing the person (in the first instance) or
    the area from which I felt the power.  On the day following the black
    magic incident, I returned to the scene, found the power point that had
    been used (as well as another, nearby),  and again used my body to
    purify the place, this time blessing the world first in the ordinal
    directions and then in the cardinal ones.  After this process my wife
    reported a change in the "vibrations" near the power point, to the
    effect that she could walk near it without getting "all prickly". 
    
    In the instance just described I really felt no fear; at a few other
    times, especially in the months just after the incident described, I
    have been quite fearful.  Sharpened my memory of the 23rd Psalm, it
    did.  In one instance, I spent a long and restless night wrestling with
    the memory of an albino toad my son and I had encountered [maybe it was
    just what it appeared to be, but it sure "spooked" me].  I couldn't
    get to sleep until finally I visualized our home as protected by
    something like the pyramid with an eye, shown on a U.S. $1-bill. 
    
    I have not studied these things; everything I did was a sort of
    educated guess, perhaps informed by knowledge gained in past lives.

    Such as been my way of "changing reality".  In view of the existence of
    people who practice black magic even to the point of ritual sacrifice
    of both animals and people; in view of the link between some of these
    people and some of those in the drug trade; in view of the link between
    the drug trade and many among us with dependent personalities, tell me
    how you would respond, in practical terms. "Fringe fanatics, sickos"
    they may be, but naming the dragon is only where one starts. 
    
    Donald Reinke

    Re .3 (Topher):
    
    >I just got a glimpse of this in the Boston Globe this morning, but
    >there it was described as "Voodoo rights with human sacrifice". 
     
    Leave it to the _Globe_.  Voodoo has as many rights as any other
    religion, but I doubt if human sacrifice is included in them. :-)
    
    Actually, according to the report I heard this morning, those captured
    specifically identified the rites as Satanic.
    
    By thisd time tomorrow, there may be more details.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

RE .4 (Donald Reinke)

    First let me correct a stupid mistake I made before it propagates any
    further -- the name of the religion in question is *Santeria* NOT
    Santorini.  Somehow I have got the name Santorini fixated/overlaid
    on the name Santeria.  Its one of those stupid mistakes -- like a
    particular misspelling -- which I keep making though if I stop to think
    about it I know what's right.

    Anyway, here's why I think the distinction is important:

    Cold-blooded murder is like this is most certainly "monstrous."  It is
    so whether it is done for sexual gratification, to protect a criminal's
    secrecy, or as part of a religious/magical ritual to gain power.

    True Satanism appears in many forms, some innocuous, some nearly so,
    and some anything but.  It is by definition explicitly anti-Christianity,
    anti-Islam or possibly anti-Judaism.  A Satanist is in revolt against
    the societal norms.

    The Christian, primarily Fundamentalist Protestant, Religious-Right has
    been working very hard to establish the belief that there exists an
    organized, world-wide (i.e., foreign) Satanist conspiracy, whose
    purpose is to destroy "Christian Values".  I have seen absolutely zero
    evidence for Satanist organization on any more than the scale of a
    street gang.  More often self-identified Satanism is simply a mechanism
    to provide justification by a single deranged individual for their
    compulsive acts of senseless violence.

    It is important to understand whether this is Satanism or one of the
    African derived New World religions because our appropriate response
    will differ.  The negative aspects of Santeria or Voudoun is *not*
    equivalent to Satanism.  These practices are *not* a rejection of
    Christianity, but a severe abuse of normal practice in that religion --
    it is not *anti* but simply *negative*.  (Is that clear at all, or am I
    babbling?)

    To the extent that this incident is part of a general problem distinct
    from the general violence and corruption of the drug trade, we must
    understand it to deal with it.  If it is Voudoun or Santeria we must
    understand that to deal with it -- for example, by seeking the help of
    the positive practitioners.  We must not let this incident become a
    weapon in the hands of those who believe that religious freedom is
    an evil which must be stopped, and who are, to that end attempting to
    convince people that they are the ones under attack, and that other
    beliefs are dangerous.

    If, on the other hand, it is Satanism, it is important that it be
    identified, and its limits or external connections be established
    without hysteria.

    The distinction between Santeria and Voudoun, is not of great import
    here (both religions sprang from the same roots and developed in
    similar circumstances).  I brought up the question only as part of the
    general issue of the accuracy of news reports -- Santeria is more
    likely than Voudoun for cultural reasons, but is much less familiar
    a name to reporters and the public, and so it will tend to be confused
    with Voudoun.

    Frankly, I think that it is unlikely that if the suspects had claimed
    that they had performed the sacrifice to "The Great Lord of Death" or
    whatever the title used in Santeria (it is an almost universal of human
    religions that death/evil-gods/spirits are referred to by title not by
    name) that it would not be reported as Satanism, whatever else they
    said.

				    Topher

    
    RE: .9
    
    	I agree with your reasoning on why it is important to figure
    out if it is/was Satanic or *other*. Investigation I guess is the
    only real answer... I have read two newspaper accounts on the
    story and both use the words..."Satanism, Voodoo, or Magic." which
    narrows down the drug dealers to be..
    
    	1) Satanists: anti-cultural, anti-sociological types.
    
    	2) Voodoo doers: (?) practicing a dark side of the
    			religion/culture.
    
    	3) into Magic: a warped vaudeville act? "Hey Jose, watch me saw
    		this woman in half." 
                                     
    Craig 
    

    From NPR this am....
    
    This group looks to be a deviant variant of Cubian Palo Mundi. Palo
    Mundi is a darker form of Santeria (of sorts). While many Santeria
    groups may practice animal sacrifice Cuban Palo Mundi had not yet
    incorporated human sacrifice. It probably never will except in deviant
    and isolated groups. 
    
    This group is two steps away from Santeria.
                                  
    And yes, they should pay the price for taking lives needlessly and
    illegally in a ritual setting. 

    
    re. 1031.11
    
    I guess that what is reffered in .11 as "Palo Mundi" is really called
    "Palo Mayombe" (Mayombe stick) which from being a ritual to induce
    death became an actual cult by its practitioners...(I'll try to
    post later the basics of the ritual...for informational purposes
    of course...:-)...)
    
    							JSR:.
    

    This has *not* been my topic...
    
    First in .3 I spelled "rite" as "right" as mentioned by Steve Kallis
    in .8.
    
    Also in .3 I talked about the "Santorini" religion rather than
    "Santeria" -- I don't have the excuse of having only heard it over the
    radio.
    
    Finally (I hope, but probably not), Dave Pierson has pointed out that
    I used a rather confusing double negative in .9.  Since, contrary to
    those grammarians who try to apply Latin rules to English -- a double
    negative can be a *strong* negative in English, this is at best
    ambiguous and at worst the opposite of what I meant to say.
    
    Briefly, what I meant to say in .9 was
    
    	Frankly, I think that it is likely that if the suspects had claimed
    	that they had performed the sacrifice to "The Great Lord of Death"
    	... that it would be reported as Satanism, whatever else they said.
    
    Thank's Dave, for pointing it out -- I hope no one was confused.
    
    						Topher

    Reply to...
================================================================================
Note 1031.12  Crime Reportedly Links Drugs, Killing, and Satanic Activ  12 of 13
20506::SANTIAGO "Certified Gremlin Instructor"       11 lines  13-APR-1989 10:09
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
  >  I guess that what is reffered in .11 as "Palo Mundi" is really called
  >  "Palo Mayombe" (Mayombe stick) which from being a ritual to induce
  >  death became an actual cult by its practitioners...(I'll try to
  >  post later the basics of the ritual...for informational purposes
  >  of course...:-)...)
   
    Thanx JSR. I was hoping you were still around.
    
    I heard the news broadcast first thing this time. I thought it was
    "Maundi", but I'm glad you've straightened me out.
    
    Ok what is the Mayombe stick??
    

    
    	   I heard they found a second site just south of the 
    	Arizona-Mexico border, this one containing 16 bodies (so far).
    
    	   They found a 13th body in the original site (Matagorda?).
    
    	   Santeria was mentioned by the news here in Texas, not 
    	Voudoun or voodoo.  However, there have been headlines
    	reading "Satanic Drug Cult Killings...".
    
    	   No mention of Palo Mundi or Palo Mayobe, so far.  I think
    	they are unavailable for comment. ;^)
    
    	   Santeria seems like some pretty heavy stuff, and this is a
    	little to close to home for my comfort.  One of the boys found
    	was a Houston kid who's been missing for several weeks.  Well,
    	he ain't missing no more.  
    
    	- Greg

                       The "Palo Mayombe" rite


     This  rite  was  originally  one of the  many  performed  by 
     african sorcerers (Kimbiambus) to "bind" the spirit of death 
     people  by  forcing them to a pact  (Nganga).  The  sorcerer 
     could  then use him as a courier to bring illnesess or  even 
     death to his enemies...

     How do you make a "Nganga" ?...well,  first you need to be a 
     "rayado" (one who is initiated in the _art_ of palo mayombe; 
     "rayado" means to have cuts done by a kimbiambu, these marks 
     are  usually  made  on  the chest or back  in  a  cross-like 
     pattern.)  and  after some practise with  your  Godfathering 
     kimbiambu the initiate can become a "Mayombero" or  "Palero" 
     (a full blown heavy-duty mayombe rite practitioner...:-)..). 


     The proccess:

     Parts of the body of a death man are retrieved and placed on 
     the altar cloth in the floor of the sorcerer temple. Of most 
     interest to the sorcerer is the skull with the brain of  the 
     body  (it  is  so because he needs his _soon  to  be  slave_ 
     spirit  able  to "think").  He then procceds to lie  on  the 
     floor  close to the remainings.  Four candles are lit and he 
     waits until the spirit takes posesion of him;  then,  it  is 
     asked if he accepts to make a pact with him.  A machete with 
     seven  small  heaps of gun-powder are placed on the back  of 
     the palero waiting for the response of the spirit: then they 
     are  lit and if all explode at the same time the  answer  is 
     yes...

     The  kimbiambu  then  writes the name of the diseased  in  a 
     piece of paper in where he wraps some amount of money.  Then 
     this,  with the body parts he had, are placed in a "Mayombe" 
     stewing  pan that has been previously prepared with  several 
     ingredients  (these  ingredients  help to  keep  the  spirit 
     locked  up  and  in a  restless  condition...note:  I  don't 
     enumerate   them  here  because I don't  know  the   english 
     translation  for  most  of  them).   After  doing  this  the 
     kimbiambu  cuts  himself and pours his blood in the  pan  to 
     feed by the first time the spirit (some sorcerers  prefer to 
     pour animal blood because of fear  that the  spirit may  get 
     used to his blood and could try to  kill him for it).

     Then,  for  three consequtive fridays the palero brings  the 
     pan  to the cementery and buries it (for the duration of the 
     day).  He do the same thing for another three fridays in the 
     forest.  Every  time he brings it back he must feed it  with 
     animal blood (usually from a roster), water and rum...

     Spirits  are  "liberated" by the sorcerer when  they  become 
     lazy or to "cranky",  or when they begin to ask for to much. 
     He  may choose to return them to the grave or  to  "elevate" 
     them  with  the  help of a "medium";  it  depends  of  their 
     previous behaviour...
     
          
                            *************


     Several variations exists of this rite. Some kimbiambus have 
     simplified  it  by  omiting some of the  traditional  steps. 
     These prefer to perform a simplified ritual done at the same 
     place  in where they "obtain" the skull and or body parts...

     
                                             Paz Profunda, 
                                                           JSR:.

When I first read the title of the base note, I thought it was referring to the
Reagan Administation involvement in the Iran/Contra/Drugs fiasco. :-)

		Dave

    
    eh.....dont be so sure..... im still wondering if it isn't some
    strange dejavuish kind of cosmic joke..... perhaps we will never
    know...