Conference hydra::dejavu

    I visited the Oregon Vortex (oh, 10 years ago), its about a
    1/2 hour off the interstate (I5?).  Interesting.  I would have to
    spend a day there to determine what I thought was happening, and
    if it was super/para normal.
    
    The place is located in a narrow "valley" of a small stream, with steep
    sides.  There is a "house", something beteween a shed and a shack, as i
    recall.  The floors, walls, & ceiling are all "leaning".  They do
    several demonstrations with rolling balls which seem to have "wrong"
    results. 
    
    I seem to recall a "roll backward" spot in Eastern Canada (Nova
    Scotia?).
        
    I would love to believe that something strange is going on at these
    places, but it would take more study to convince my skeptical side.
    
    For an illustration of how the eye/mind can be fooled, Clarks Trading
    Post, Crawford Notch, NH, has a "crooked house".  They make no claims
    to mystery about it, and careful examination shows that _this_ one
    is, quite normal, but designed to fool the eye/mind.  Balls do appear
    to roll up hill, but, it is illusion.  Note that the _existence_
    of the Clark's Trading Post House illusion does not prove whether 
    ther is anything "rigged" about other such places.
    
    (I believe there has been discussion of this in a previous note,
    including the location of a "roll backward" spot in Massachussets.
    If so, anyone who could find the previous might tie the two notes
    together...)

    thanks
    dwp

    Yes, the "mystery" house where balls roll uphill, etc. is one of the
    oldest tricks in the book.  Because everything in the house is out
    of plumb, they appear normal from the viewer's standpoint.  We are
    conditioned by everyday life to expect interiors to be horizontal
    with respect to the center of the earth, so when everything is askew
    in that respect but aligned in reference to each other, we don't
    notice.
    
    There is little mystery to most of the earth's "mystery spots,"
    even the natural ones, if one takes the time to investigate.
    
    John M.

    Wow- all this time with no SOAPBOX must be affecting me more than
    I thought- I find I'm in agreement with the Astral Baitfish!
    
    I expect that most (if not all) of the "negative gravity" spots'
    phenomena can be explained by physics. I'd be willing to bet that
    in the cases where the car seems to roll uphill or even does roll
    up hill a geological formation is imparting sufficient magnetic
    or gravitational force to effect these phenomena.
    
    The Doctah

RE: .4 (The Doctah)

    All such spots that I have ever heard of being investigated were caused
    by optical illusions -- natural, natural but artificially enhanced
    or completely artificial.  In the outdoor ones, generally blocking
    part of the view completely eliminates the effect -- the car is
    perceived as rolling downhill.  (The indoor ones bombard the viewer
    with miscues from all directions so that it is not practical to
    block out the view except by closing ones eyes completely).

    In any case -- neither magic nor physics is involved, only the
    psychology of perception.

    					Topher

    In Moncton New Bruinswick Canada there Is a hill called Magnetic
    Hill. It does the same thing. You park your car at the bottom of
    the hill and put It in nuetral and It rolls up the hill. Having
    come from this area I can say that most people agree that it's
    an optical illusion. I think that the hill actually slopes downhill
    but the surrounding land makes It seem like it slopes uphill.
    
                                              gina
    

    RE: .4 (The Doctah)
    
    You AGREE?  Will wonders never cease!  I must be sitting in a mystery
    spot!
    
    
    John M.

    
    	   I'm truly amazed that nobody has mentioned the most famous
    	mystery spot of all...
    
    		The Bermuda Triangle!
    
    	   There, it's been mentioned now, so we can completely ignore
    	it from now on.
    
    	   When I was a kid my parents took me to Ripley's Believe It Or
    	Not (a mystery spot located in the heart of the tourist trap 
    	known as Gatlinburg Tennessee).  I was young and impressionable
    	at the time.  When I figureed out the toughest trick they had,
    	I decided there really was no mystery left in the world... only
    	things we have not examined closely enough to understand.  That
    	knowledge forever changed the way I view the world.
    
    	- Greg

    There's a completely natural hill like that just south of Ayr in
    Scotland. It's called the Electric (Croy) Brae. Sure enough the
    car 'rolls uphill'. I'm fairly sure it's an optical illusion 'cos
    when you turn round it's not nearly so impressive. But it sure made
    my 7-yearold's day! (Last Sunday)
    
    Brian

    
      There is a place in St.Ignace, Mi called the Mystery Spot.  Not
    far from the Mackinaw bridge.  It also has most of the previous
    things mentioned (i.e. balls rolling 'up hill') along with a couple
    other oddities and optical illusions.  The one that amazed me was
    the one where two people stood on a large brick-like stand.  They
    put a 'level' down to show that the surface was level.  The people
    stood looking at one another with their faces about a foot apart
    from each other.  We we're told to note who was taller.  Then they
    switched sides and again, we we're asked if that person was still
    the taller.  And - as you might guess.  The person who 'appeared
    taller on the one side, had shrunk a couple of inches on the other.
    
       They were then told to go back to the sides they were originally
    standing on because "they wouldn't want anyone to go away any shorter
    or taller than they were when they came in!"  (ha ha)...
                                                          

    RE: .10
    
    Of course the floor may have been level, but that doesn't mean the
    ceiling was!
    
    Hey what's all this hoopla about finding mystery spots anyway? 
    I haven't even found the G spot yet!   ;-)
    
    John M.

re: .11 (John M.)
    
>I haven't even found the G spot yet!   ;-)

  Stop trying! You might be accused of animal husbandry. ;^)    

Patrick

    RE: .1,.2
    
    Can you supply a more exact location of the Oregon Vortex?
    
    The mystery spots that I am speaking of are really places where
    gravity pulls in a different direction from the norm.  I am trying
    to do some serious research on these locations and any *real* 
    information on these locations is appreciated. Thanks to those who
    have already given me some of the legitimate locations. I have located
    a few through book research, but not much has been written about
    these places. Any places known around the world, I would like to
    hear about.  Thanks.
    
    	John

    
   >The mystery spots that I am speaking of are really places where
   >gravity pulls in a different direction from the norm.  I am trying
    
    John, these places are nohing more than optical illusions. You'd
    have to have something with *enormous* mass nearby (massive as
    in approaching Earth's mass) for gravity to actually pull in a direction
    other than the norm. This big something would affect *all* masses near
    it, not just cars and people, but rocks, trees, air molecules,
    baseballs, and so on. We would've noticed it by now.
    
    A singularity would do it (black hole with no event horizon), but
    I believe that none have been observed. Besides, it would be orbiting
    *very* quickly around the center of Earth's mass and would have
    destroyed the planet a few microseconds after it appeared, so there
    wouldn't be any cars to pull uphill, even if it *was* possible.
    
    Perry

    
    
    
    	My husband, a native of New York, says there is one in Mass
    but does not remember where it is.  Maybe someone in the Mass area can 
    give you more information on this.

    
    	I'm not sure what I think about these places.  I'ld love to
    visit the one in Rome.
    
    
    	Jayna

RE: .11 (John M)
    
    > Of course the floor may have been level, but that doesn't mean the
    > ceiling was!
    
      If you think about it, an unlevel ceiling would only emphasise
      the difference.  The taller person would appear taller and
      the shorter person shorter.  For example:  A six foot person
      standing under an eight foot ceiling to the right of a foot foot 
      person standing under a seven foot ceiling would have two feet
      above them while the four footer would have three feet above
      them.  Reverse the positions and the six footer has only one
      foot of head room (appearing even taller) while the four footer 
      has four (appearing even shorter).

      Besides a slope that caused a even a couple inches of defference 
      within three or four feet would be quite detectable to most people.

      Terry

    There is a site in Harvard Ma, somewhere near the Fruitlands
    Museum.  I'd be interested in hearing exactly where the hill
    is.
    
    Mary Jo
    

Solid information, I don't have; just a thought...

what about the inside of a volcano?

    RE: .14
    
    This is NOT an optical illusion.  Miracle House, that is.  The
    plumb-bob used is brass and therefore non-magnetic.  But it hangs 
    like this: /  .  The top being the ceiling two-by-four and the bottom, 
    the plumb-bob.  Plumb-bob is approx. 4-5 inches long and pointed. Also,
    the floor is NOT level. It is approx. 90 degrees to the plumb. 
    The trees near this spot have grown twisted from the different gravity
    pull.  BTW....the string that the plumb hangs on is just that..string.
    No wire to keep it in that position. 
    
    Some more background on Miracle House.  In the late forties, early
    fifties, the owner was expanding his miniature golf course to 18
    holes.  They poured the concrete for the pads on one of the holes
    and it didn't pour correctly.  They tried again and it still wouldn't
    pour *right*.  Upon experimentation, other things were found to
    happen strangely.  The owner built a *house* (nothing more than
    a structural shell) over the spot to keep people out and have an
    attraction.  The *spot* affects a surface area of about 20ft. long
    and 12ft. wide.
    
    Those that are skeptics, please come visit this place.  They open
    it in the spring.....around the 31st of May. Then tell me it is an
    optical illusion.  B^)
    
    	John 

    RE: .20
    
    Since it takes a body as massive as the Earth to make a marble weigh
    an ounce, it seems quite unlikely that there is anything that massive
    near Mystery House.
    
    Lots of things can make trees grow twisted, from light to training
    wires.
    
    If the man wanted to keep people out of the spot and REALLY be
    impressive, why didn't he just put a fence around the place.  Sorry.
    I've just seen too many of these places in my day to believe it;
    including the H2O running up hill trick and the people-of-changing
    size trick.
    
    John M.

RE: .20
    
    I'll reserve judgement until I see it myself (if I ever get over
    there), but I don't really have straight in my mind what this
    place looks like.  Do I this right (as seen inside):
    
    	The ceiling beam is "true" horizontal (I.e., it would appear
        horizontal to a distant observer).
    
    	The roof is pitched.
    
    	The walls are "true" vertical (I.e., they would appear vertical
        to a distant observer.  And are thus perpendicular to the ceiling
        beam.
    
        The floor is about 40� off of true horizontal, and therefore
        from being parallel to the ceiling beam.
    
    	The plumb-bob is about 40� off of true vertical and therefore
    	perpendicular to the floor (we can refer to this as "local
    	vertical", and the line of the floor as "local horizontal").
    
    	A visitor stands parallel to the plumb-bob, and thus at local
        vertical.
    
    Is that right?  Is it complete?  Are there windows?  How do you
    enter it?  How do you determine what true vertical/horizontal
    should be?
    
    					Topher

    RE: .22
    
    Yup...you have the details correct.
    
    There are two doors, one at each end of the building. These are
    outside the area of influence. Building runs lengthwise east-west.
    There is a door at the west end (entrance) and a door at the east
    end (exit). Total building length...approx. 40ft. 10ft. area at
    entrance and exit with no roof.  You walk through an oversized doorway
    to get into the area of influence.  Because of the tilt of the floor,
    there is a 1 1/2" bar running the length of south wall to hang on to, 
    as some people can't handle standing at an angle. The ground is higher 
    on the south and slopes down towards the north.  
    
    The walls are what would be considered normally vertical and the
    rafters normally horizontal.  The roof is sheet metal and only on
    a slight pitch. What I'm saying is: "normally" is "true" linear
    directions.  The trick of changing sizes is not done. As for water
    flowing uphill.....hmmmmmm.  Inside the area, a water faucet is
    mounted through the interior wall, approx. 5ft. above the floor.
    When the faucet is turned on, the water follows the same line as
    the plumb into a funnel that drains the water outside the building.
    Again there is NOTHING connecting to the faucet for the water to
    follow along. By the same line, I mean the 40 degrees from "true"
    vertical. All the items or things done in the area are NOT optical
    illusions. I have visited this place many times to try a find something
    that could create them.  But when you are standing perpendicular
    to the floor at an angle that you would "normally" fall over at,
    one has a tendency to believe gravity in a different direction.
    
    	John

    About the Oregon Vortex.  Sorry, too many brain cells gone.  It
    is operated as a tourist attraction, a letter to the Oregon
    Dept of Tourism, or a visit to a local library for a run thru
    AAA tour guides might do it...
    
    re .20:
    (This is going to come across as _skeptical_, sorry)
    In the "effect" room, were there any windows, where you could see
    the outside?
    
    thanks
    dwp

    RE: .24
    
    Nope...no windows, only the two doors at either end.
    
    	John

    re: Oregon Vortex
    Not on the AAA Map, somewhere in the southern part of the state:
    between Medford & Grants Pass, definitely S of Grants Pass.
    
    re: windows
    
    (Caution-Skeptic mode kicking in)
    
    Windows would allow the establishment of an "outside" vertical
    reference.  Lack of windows prevents it.
    
    The structure I mentioned at Clark's Trading Post had no windows at
    usual levels, but a triangular one in the "peak of the end wall",
    as I recall.  Comparing the perceived "level" of the "sill" of
    this window as seen when inside, and as seen from outside, led
    me to conclude (no measurements...) that the inside was tilted
    differently than it appeared, from the inside.  With the window
    high, the angle of view was up, so no outside vertical was visible.

    (skeptic mode off)
    
    The existence of one willfully illusional structure does not
    prove/disprove other sturctures.  It does provide an example of how
    such things can be "faked".

    I would like to spend a day or so at the oregon vortex, with a good
    level (and maybe some other tools...).

    thanks
    dwp

    
    If the mystery spots have any logical explanation, your best bet
    for finding it is in the Geology notesfile.  Seems to me that, if
    a magnetic force is responsible for the effect, a CIRCULAR pattern
    - sort of a "mystery ring" instead of "mystery spot" - would appear
    around the epicenter of the force.  But you'd be better off asking
    a geologist - I can almost tell a river from a lake, on a good day.
    
    Gravity/magnetic forces can do strange things, though - water goes
    down the drain in the opposite direction in the Southern Hemisphere,
    and people "weigh" somewhat more at the poles than at the equator
    because the earth is a little flattened, and the poles are "closer"
    to the magnetic center of the planet.
    
    (Trivia question - I don't have the answer - what way does water
    go down the drain at the equator??)
    

    I think I'm just a bit slow on understanding the house with the
    floor at 40 degrees and the plumb perpendicular to it:  
    
    Isn't the floor just built level with the walls at a 40-degree
    angle?  To me it just sounds like the floor should be the reference
    for what is "true" and not the walls.  
    
    The Mystery Spot outside of Santa Cruz was a big disappointment
    when we went but the kids got a kick out of it.  All of the "oddities"
    could be explained by optical illusions; some of the effects changed
    depending on where you stood to view them.
    
    re: 27 (Trivia question)
    
    Straight down (according either to an old brain-teaser or a 
    science quiz--I forgot which one).
    
    Jill

RE: .27
    
    �Water rotation direction down drain dependent on hemisphere�
    
    Sorry this is a commonly repeated science myth.  There is a tendency
    for large bodies of water to act this way due to the Coriolis (sp?)
    effect (this statement is circular -- the Coriolis effect is simply
    the name given to this effect).  But the magnitude of the Coriolis
    effect is very, very small for bodies of water smaller than say
    (at a guess) the Great Lakes.  It is completely dominated by the
    slightest existing motion in the water, by movements of air above
    the water, by vibrations in the ground, and by microscopic a symetries
    in the container and the drain.
    
    The net influence of the Coriolis effect is zero on a body placed
    symetrically across the equator.  Water draining through a hole on
    the equator will rotate on the basis of other chance factors, as it
    always does for *small* bodies of water since the Coriolis effect
    is then effectively zero.
    
    For large fluid bodies stradling the equator without draining, the
    Coriolis effect causes them to divide into symetric "cell systems" north
    and south of the equator with the rotations in the major cells
    counter-rotating, with smaller cells "bucking" their hemispheric
    tendencies interfacing between them.  This can be seen by looking
    at the major currents in the Atlantic or Pacific basins, or by looking
    at worldwide prevailing wind patterns.
    
    						Topher

                           
    Re.29  (Topher)
    
    RE: debunking the water/hemisphere myth
    
    Oh RATS!  Now I have to think up some other reason for going to
    Australia!
    
    (;^)
    
    Hey Mikie - wanna come along on this trip?  (:^)  It isn't Florida.
    
    Cindy (OZ-bound in '89)

    Can't find a good,solid pointer but...
    
    Indications are the Oregon Vortex is in Gold Hill, Oregon, roughly
    half way from Grants pass down to Medford.  When I went thru it
    was advertized as the Vortex. the one map i can find it referenced
    on now shows a "mystery house" at that location.
    
    thanks
    dwp

    
    
    	A friend of mine is from Grants Pass, OR and I remember
    	him showing me a picture of his mom standing at this
    	"House" (RE:.31).  
               
    	I'll have to ask him what the exact location is.
    
    	Tigga~~

    I've been to the Mystery Spot.  It's no mystery.
    
    See, the reason a "house" is built over the site is to optically
    alter your sense of vertical.  The out-of-plumb floors & walls
    disorients you so a chair with its back legs on a brace on the wall
    and the front legs off the floor makes of appear gravity is altered,
    and water runs uphill.  (Notice they give you some time for your
    senses to fit themselves into the orientation of the walls & floors?
    In most houses & structures, the builders strive to be "plumb" and
    your body is used to it; it takes time to adapt to the new
    "perspective".  Recall the experiment of many years ago where a
    volunteer wore a special pair of glasses which inverted the
    filed-of-view?  It took weeks, but the brain finally began interpreting
    the signals from the optic nerve as an inverted signal and, to the
    subject, all returned to normal.  When the glasses were removed,
    the brain had to "re-learn" which way was "up".  Applying this to
    the Mystery Spot, should the subject conclude the world had gone
    upside down just because the brain's perception/interpretation of
    what the eye saw had been artificially altered?)
                                                               
    With all the optical tricks, why not, as a parting shot, have a
    line-of-sight non-metallic plumb bob suspended away from the 
    non-metallic plumb bob inside the crooked house so you can see for
    yourself?  (Or be able to stand in a spot to see a faucet running
    inside *and* outside the Spot?)  Why go to all the trouble of 
    masking what they claim is a natural phenomenon?
    
    Why hasn't the gov't (or a scientific group) moved in to conduct 
    experiments?  I know; too busy covering up UFOs.
    
    						Dob

    Fodor's Western States Travel guide lists:
    Sardine Creek Rd, ???-855-1543
    
    thanks
    dwp

    Another "mystery Spot"
    
    "Cosmos"  Rockerville, SD, in the Black Hills, between Rapid City
    and Mt Rushmore, off US 16.
    
    Site:
    
    Ona wooded, steep, hillside (30 degrees, maybe 40?).
    Two "height changing" pads:  levelled, poured concrete.  whoever is
    standing closest to the rising ground appears to lose height relative
    to someone standing away from the rising ground.
    
    "We encourage people to bring there own "test equipment" (levels...)."
    
    A short walk up the hill is a "crooked house", built with a tilt
    different than the hillside, and from "level".
    
    (with windows....  8)>>).
    
    A ball appears to roll "uphill" on a trough, but the level (they have
    one) was not applied to the trough.
    
    A suspended weight(25lbs?) is said to be harder to push one way than
    the other, however when i tried it, i noticed no difference.  A spring
    balance would be a good thing to include with the level.
    
    "A Chair of Truth and Honesty"  A common chair, inside the house, which
    will balance at an odd angle to the wall "...if the person seated in it
    is truthful and honest...".  (this part of the speech delivered by the
    guide with tongue somewhat in cheek....).  To me, this looked like the
    "belt hangar" center of gravity demonstration:
    	A sort of "comma" shaped piece of wood is cut.  Placed on the
        edge of a table by itself, with the "tail" of the comma hooked
    	over the table edge, it falls off.  If a belt is placed in a notch
    	next to the "head" of the comma, the CG is shifted enough so that
    	the "comma" plus the belt will balance.  (hard to
    	describe...sorry)).
    
    At another point, visitors are invited to stand on a rail in the wall,
    with the standee apparently tipped forward.  Itcould be an illusion,
    created by the mind not accurately compensating for the tilt of the
    structure. Add a plumbob to that list of test equpment  (or an a/c
    artifical horizon or a gyro set up or....).
    
    	"This spot and it strange effects were first noted in 193x(?)
    	by two college students looking for a good place for a summer
    	camp."
    
    	"Omni magazine sent a team out with levels and other things
    	and the said something was going on here."  (be an interesting
    	issue to track down...).
    
    One note: Their brochure is flat misleading in the pictures on the
    inside.  They print three pictures, printed to show the "house" as
    vertical.  It isn't.
    
    thanks
    dwp
    (PS  The only other deja vuish thing on this trip was to swing by
    the American Indian Pipestone quarry, still operated by the Indians).

              While spending time near Trenton, N.J. I used to hear about 
    a place called Gravity Hill. I'm not shure where but Ewing Township 
    sounds right. Just ask any High School senior; I'm shure one will know
    or know someone who does know.
    
    
                     M.B.