Conference hydra::dejavu

    someone from one of our most popular religions claimed
    "the poor shall always be with you."  i believe that
    the same religion maintains that suffering is inevitable,
    noble and that we'll find our reward after death.

    seems to me that we've managed to effectively create a reality
    in line with those tenets,  especially the parts about the poor 
    and suffering...
    
    now you seem to be suggesting that we accept what we've created.


    you can accept your reality;  i'm going to change mine...

/bruce
    

    Close but no cigar.  Assumption in the term "reincarnation": there
    is a soul which exists elsewhere/when in some sense when not inhabiting
    a body.  Whenever that soul is clothed in flesh it is incarnated
    ("carna" means flesh, the same root as carnivorous "flesh eating").
    The second time one is incarnated, one is reincarnated.  If one
    wants to count, they should count "incarnations" not "reincarnations"
    unless one wants to exclude the first time (which in many theories
    of reincarnation *is* different -- no karma from previous lives).
    
    If one believes that souls are created and placed in a body, rather
    than growing or being created there, one believes in incarnation
    of the soul.  If one believes that after death of the body the soul
    is placed in another body then one believes in *re*incarnation.
    
    						Topher

    RE:  951.0
    
    Bruce,
    
    You mention in another note that you don't get angry at too many
    topics, but that you do at what Frederick has been saying.  It is
    ironic, but it has been your responses that have stirred anger in
    me.  By knocking reincarnation, CYOR, etc. is exactly what you
    accuse Frederick of being, that is 'prejudiced'.  Having met you
    professionally a couple of times, you didn't appear to be close-
    minded, but your replies suggest that you are.  You seem to be
    throwing the 'baby out with the bath water' here and ignore the
    good in what is being said.
    
    Instead of 'kinder, more gentle computers', let's have 'kinder,
    more gentle noters'.
    
    Ro
    

    RE: .0
    
    At last, a sound philosophy!
    
    Accept the situation you are in, and do what you can to make it
    better or change it.  We are not gods, and there is no proof that
    we can have any effect on anyone's "reality" but our own.  
    
    Of threats of hell and hopes of paradise
    One thing at least is certain...this life flies
    One thing is certain and the rest are lies
    The flower that once has blown forever dies.  
    
                                           --Omar Khayaam
    
    John M.                                     

    
    Re.4 (Juan Anchovy in a Million):
                 
    John,
    
    My favorite story to tell over in the Christian conference is this:
    
    "There was a man who was in a 3rd world country and saw a little
    girl in a thin dress shivering.  He thought to himself, "How could
    God let such a thing happen?"  Then he realized this one great truth
    - that the love of God passes from one person to another."
    
    We really do have an effect on the realities of others, either by
    the choice to act, or by the choice to not act.  The reality of
    the little girl in the story above will be affected regardless of
    the choice the man makes to help or not to help her, because even
    non-action is action.
    
    Cindy

    Re .4 (John)
    
    >   One thing is certain and the rest are lies
    >   The flower that once has blown forever dies.
    
    Yeah?
    
    Pat Hardy

    RE: .5 (Cindy)
    
    I agree with you.  I meant that there is no "consensus reality."
    People in a plane crash do not decide to be involved in a plane
    crash (unless they plant the bomb).
    
    Speaking of which, an English friend of mine whom I saw over the
    holidays was going to take the ill-fated flight 301 but changed
    his flight for business reasons.
    
    John M.

                                                   
    Re.7 (John M.)
        
    The people may have not wanted to be involved in the plane crash,
    however they may, at some level less than completely conscious (see
    YCYOR), have decided to check out of this lifetime, and the plane
    crash was how it happened.
    
    The older I get, the more relatives I've seen on their way out of
    this lifetime, and I'm becoming more and more convinced that they
    actively choose to die, and the rest is just incidental (heart attack,
    cancer, food poisoning, etc.).  In fact when my grandmother passed
    away at age 90 a few months ago, there was no cause listed.  She
    was found on the couch, in her own home, with a peaceful expression.   
    She died just the way she had said she wanted to...in her home of
    over 65 years.  And that is precisely what she did.
    
    I came very close to death once, and made the conscious choice to
    live.  I could have chosen to die, but I did not. I have a good 
    friend who was on the operating table and tells of her out-of-body 
    experience where she ended up going toward the light, but then 
    stopped and decided that her time on Earth was not up and that she 
    had work to do, so she came back.  Actually, she put that story in 
    this conference over a year ago (title: search no more). 
                                                       
    It's a difficult concept, and for the longest time I believed very
    much like you and others do, however due to things that have happened
    in my own life, I now believe differently.  I cannot always explain
    it completely, and I do not expect you to believe it either.  But it 
    is what I believe nonetheless, with very good reasons - just as you 
    believe as you do for very good reasons.  And that's OK.
    
    Cindy

RE: .8 (Cindy)
    
    Food poisoning?
    
    
    John M.
    
    P.S.  Interesting how you put New Age and Dark Age together!  >:-)

    re: .0
    
    	   Accepting one's reality is the first step toward taking
    	control of it.  When planning to make progress you must first
    	know where you are and where you want to be.  In other words,
    	you must acknowledge the point called 'here and now' before
    	you can move ahead to 'there and then'.
    
    	   Of course, I'm sure there are millions of people that your
    	AYOR philosophy will appeal to... mainly the weak-minded and
    	hopeless who are convinced they are the victims of a universe
    	that is far to vast for them to comprehend, let alone control.
    	Happily, I don't belong to that group of simpletons.  While I
    	do accept my reality, I do so because I created it, and I use
    	that acceptance as a firm place to plant my feet while moving
    	even farther into the realm of created reality.
    
    	   Those who do not understand YCYOR love to bash it, trying
    	to make it seem like the practitioners live in fantasy-land.
    	They operate under the mistaken notion that their perception
    	of reality applies not only for themselves, but for everyone,
    	as if there was only one reality.  This is clearly an absurd
    	assumption.
    
    	   Reality is what you make of it.  Some people can walk on 
    	hot coals without damaging themselves or feeling pain, others
    	can't walk on sub-baked pavement without feeling pain.  Some 
    	have no qualms about killing animals, others are unwilling
    	to do so.  You see, they have interpretted the evidence 
    	presented them differently.  They have, in effect, created
    	their realities, and each is separate and distinct.  Everyone
    	does, whether they realize they are doing so or not.
    
    	   Naturally, this line of thinking is a bit too advanced for
    	the AYOR simpletons, who tend to be the same people who believe
    	in 'destiny', and seek to blame their misfortunes on the Great
    	Sky God, or some equally obtrusive entity.  They refuse to 
    	accept the fact that in their ignorance they were capable of
    	creating a reality that was so unfavorable to them, and bolster
    	their ignorance by blaming their situation on someone other
    	than themselves.
    
    	   Accept your own reality... accept that you have created it,
    	and stop trying to shirk responsibility for what you have
    	created.
    
    	- Greg
    

    re: .10
    
          I accept your view of reality creation and agree, but I don't think
    one needs to see others who don't share it as less than we are.
    True, they may be less aware, but that's about it.  If one accepts
    the notion that all time is concurrent, then *we* are ignorant
    at this very moment, too (although admittedly not in our conscious
    minds.)  Knocking that is not too productive.  
    
    Frederick
    

    (Not my usual node - mail to WEFXIT::PAINTER please.)
                                                         
    Re.9 (John M.)
    
    >Food poisoning
     
    Sometimes elderly people keep food far longer than they should,
    because they cannot tell (taste, see, smell) the difference.  So
    they ingest bad food and subsequently die from it.  I've had a 
    few firsthand experiences with this.
    
    Cindy
                  

    
    RE: .10
    
    	I Think this may be my problem with YCYOR folks. I feel they
    (Just talking about the folks I have met personally...)
    perhaps have accepted their reality but have problems accepting
    themselves. In some I have felt extreem emotional frustration comming
    from inside them but they ignore it and strive to change things
    around them. Not a stable base for any reality.
    	I do think there is a step in development that includes the
    use of the teachings learned in the YCYOR school of thought, but
    there are schools beyond and below it.
    	
                                                           
    Craig 

    re: .13
    
    	   Acknowledging one's emotions is very important.  Openly
    	displaying them is not.  There are other ways to utilize
    	emotions.  They can be channeled into reality creation 
    	efforts.  That's how I use them.  Using them in this fashion
    	does not mean that I'm not in touch with my emotions, it
    	does mean that I've found what I consider a better outlet
    	for them.
    
    	   My problem with the AYOR crowd is that they allow themselves
    	to assume the role of victim all too often.  They blame their
    	reality on others around them, never acknowledging that their
    	decisions and actions were really the cause.  By deciding that
    	they are not responsible for the problem they feel no compulsion
    	to assume responsibility for the solution.  In short, they feel
    	the world should treat them better, but won't lift a finger to
    	make it happen.
    
    	   This is often accompanied by emotional displays which serve
    	no purpose, and only reinforce their sense of helplessness.
    	When they feel rage they lash out at the things they blame for
    	the rage.  When I feel rage I direct that rage into my work
    	(which currently includes writing stories, writing notes, and
    	writing programs).  I work twice as hard when I'm enraged...
    	maybe more.  It's a powerful energy source, but one that can
    	burn you out.
    
    	   When others feel sadness they express it.  When I feel sadness
    	I acknowledge it, find the source and become 'complete' with
    	whatever is causing the sadness.  I don't like being sad, so I
    	minimize it.  It is also counter-productive for me.
    
    	   When others become elated they float around on happy clouds
    	and see the world through rosey shades.  Elation for me is simply
    	an acknowledgement that the reality I created is working the
    	way I had planned.  It makes me hungry for more, so I stay on
    	track even when elated.
    
    	   Most people respond to desires instinctively.  If they're
    	hungry they eat.  If they're tired they sleep.  If they're
    	horny, well you get the idea.  Rather than respond to my
    	desires wantonly, I acknowledge them and determine whether
    	they are useful in achieving my goals.  If they are, I act
    	on them.  If not, I find some way to channel that desire
    	into more productive areas, usually by association.
    
    	   Most people respond to pain by cringing away from it.  They
    	feel threatened by pain.  I accept pain, as I have created
    	it and must accept it if it is to be removed.  I am not
    	threatened by pain.  I see it as a warning signal that the 
    	body sends out that something is wrong, then I seek to 
    	correct whatever is wrong.  As an aside, I have learned to
    	master many types of pain (as have you, no doubt).  As any
    	good fry cook at a family restaurant will tell you, it's 
    	easy to turn off the pain when you have to.  The trick is
    	in being able to do so whenever you WANT to.
    
    	   You should also understand that I'm not even typical of
    	YCYOR believers.  Not all of them channel their emotions
    	the way I do.  Others may channel them in other ways.
    	YCYOR doesn't tell you how to run your reality, it just
    	puts you in charge of running it.  How you handle your 
    	emotions is your own business, part of your reality.  Your
    	ways need not work for me any more than mine would work for
    	you.
    
    	   Reality... what a concept.
    
    	- Greg

    RE: .12 (Cindy)
    
    That is tragic indeed.  All the more reason for people to stay away
    from animal foods (I have never heard of a case of plant-based food
    poisoning).
    
    JM

    
    re: .14 Greg
    
    	Weeeell...You say Acknowledging one's emotions is important
    and I say experiancing ones emotions is vital. I dont think it
    is enough to just transfer emotional energy from source to output.
    I think an emotion should be treated like an event to be experianced,
    or absorbed fully before it can be understood. Emotions cannot
    be re-channeled any more effectivly than experiances.
    
    	I think a problem I had with doing what you explained was that
    I was creating a false higher self. A self that could logically
    transform all into a working process and re-direct it into a more
    benificial force. Unfortunately this was getting me nowhere in the
    long run. Only by taking this logical knowlegable self and submiting
    it to the chaotic influence of my emotions was I able to go beyond
    the limits. I found that I was the worst judge of what I needed.
    I am unable to chose what my higher self needs and when my higher
    self brought a situation or emotion to me to experiance my false
    higher self would grab it and re-structure it and spit it out...
    my higher self sort of got pissed at this after awile and made me
    take the passenger seat...but to steal a line from someone...
    "Your ways need not work for me any more than mine would work for
    you." ;-)
    
    Craig

	All this discussion about reality is fine but

			Whose reality is it ?

	Are you in mine or am I in yours, or are we all in each others. If
	the latter who gets the final say in what happens ?

	

    
    	RE: .17
    
    	Whose reality is it? well..who is more responsible? Perhaps
    a difficulty some people see with this shi* is that people take
    this idea to extreems. I think..the reality creating stuff is more
    of a way to take responsibility for how things are and encourage
    folks to take an active roll in improving the world by saying they
    did it. 
    
    
    	Craig  who-is-sure-he-will-be-corrected-if-he-is-wrong ;-)

    Re .15 (John):
    
    >............... (I have never heard of a case of plant-based food
    >poisoning).       
     
    I have.  From ergot.
    
    The problem isn't the food source, as I see it, but the abiklity
    to determine whether or not what is to be ingested is still usable
    as a safe food source.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    re: .16 (Craig)
    
    
>    	Weeeell...You say Acknowledging one's emotions is important
>    and I say experiancing ones emotions is vital. I dont think it
>    is enough to just transfer emotional energy from source to output.
    
    	   For most people you are probably right.  Most people don't
    	understand their emotions (and their sources) well enough to
    	rewire their systems effectively.  But then, most people haven't
    	spent as much time in introspection as I have.
    
>    I think an emotion should be treated like an event to be experianced,
>    or absorbed fully before it can be understood. Emotions cannot
>    be re-channeled any more effectivly than experiances.
    
    	   Yes they can, at least in my case.  As I said before, my way
    	doesn't work for eveyone... it wasn't designed to.  It was 
    	designed to work for me.
    
>    	I think a problem I had with doing what you explained was that
>    I was creating a false higher self. A self that could logically
>    transform all into a working process and re-direct it into a more
>    benificial force. Unfortunately this was getting me nowhere in the
>    long run. 
    
    	   Sounds like a personal problem to me. ;^)  Seriously, my
    	guess is that you encountered this barrier because you did
    	not accurately acknowledge where you were at the time.  You
    	attempted to use the 'higher self', as you called it, to
    	make things different just by wishing they were.  That doesn't
    	work.  If you have no real grasp on where you are it's awfully
    	difficult to plan where you are going.
    
    	   As an aside, it took me six or seven years of introspection
    	BEFORE I took the training before I knew enough about myself
    	to accept who I was without judgement.  I had a vision of who
    	I thought I was, and during those years had to cast aside the
    	pieces that weren't real.  When I took the training I was 
    	already deep in the process of acceptance.  Most people have
    	no idea who they really are, thus are unable to engineer the
    	person they want to be.
    
>    "Your ways need not work for me any more than mine would work for
>    you." ;-)
    
    	   I put that in originally to point out that among YCYOR
    	believers there are as many different ways to handle the
    	'emotional conflicts' as there are people to handle them.
    	Many of them do as you do... experience it to let it go.
    	I have found a different way.
    
    	- Greg

    re: .17 ("Whose reality is it")
    
         It's all of ours. Accept that we are all a part of a vast,
    impossibly complex network of consiousness, through which we happen
    to create our own reality *individually* in perfect concert with
    all of the other *realities*. This is the only model that makes
    sense to me.
    
    
    Roy
    
         
         
         

    RE: .19 (Steve)
    
    Play fair.  You know very well that by "food poisoning" we meant
    salmonella, not ingesting poisonous plants....a BIG difference. 
    
    John M.

    
    RE: .20 (Greg)
    Ah! a reply I can have fun with!!
    
    "Experiance it to let it go" Nah..experiance it to experiance it,
    You let go of everything all the time...it only hurts when you dont.
    
    "Sounds like a personal problem to me. ;^)" It is, and thats the
    only way it can be. But how does one acknowledge where he is and
    what is an illusion in an illusionary universe? Where can be a
    deception but so can who, how, what, where, why, and you. Are you
    the reality, the illusion, or bouncing in between?
    
    We have no idea! even when we are 100% sure we have to doublethink
    to wonder if it isn't 100% illusion and when we "throw away" a part
    of ourself dont we have to wonder if that was REALLY something that
    wasn't us? 
    
    Possibly we have to have no idea of who we are or what we are doing
    and then wonder if that is real? You CAN throw yourself out with
    the bath water! ;-) But if your acceptance has grasped the unacceptable
    or has grasped the idea that you havn't grasped everything and you
    have run through all the sub-jobs congrats! 
    
    Craig 

    Re .22 (John):
    
    > ..... You know very well that by "food poisoning" we meant
    >salmonella, ...
     
    No, I didn't.  It could have been as easily botulism.  "Food poisoning"
    could mean several different things, and I for one didn't take the
    subgroup for the class.
    
    I try to play fair, but I guess I don't knowe the rules well enough,
    O Anchovy.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

        
    Re.22,.24,.36,.48 - Hike!
           
    Food poisoning - I believe that if you drink a beer that has been
    sitting on a shelf until it is all sorts of wonderful colors (or
    coffee which has been there for a LONG time), that you will get
    very ill and possibly die from it.  These are not animal products...
    
    ...unless, of course, there are beer and coffee cows.
    
    Back to the regularly scheduled program.
    
    Cindy

re: .25 (Cindy)

    > ...unless, of course, there are ... coffee cows.
  
    There are you know, it comes from de calfs.  Haven't you
    heard of de-calf-inated?  ;-]

    Terry

    RE: .25 (Cindy)
    
    ...unless, of course, there are beer...cows.     
                                           
    Why do you think they call them hol-steins?
    
    
    John M.

    
    RE.clowns who wrote the last 2 notes 
    
    Moooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    (;^)
    
    Cindy