Conference hydra::dejavu

    Re .0 (Peter):
    
    There was a report (I read it 20+ years ago, so forgive a rusty
    memory on citation) that during the French Revolution, the head
    of one of the noblewomen was picked up after the Guillotine had
    done its work, and was held by the hair.  The person holding it
    slapped the face, and, according to the report, the woman's face
    registered shock and anger.
    
    I suppose if it were only a few seconds after decapitation ...
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

RE: .1
    
    There is no particular reason to expect that decapitation would
    result in instantaneous brain death -- just the contrary.  I would
    expect almost instant unconsciousness to be frequent (that's one
    h of a rabbit punch) but would be surprised if instant death *ever*
    occurred from a clean decapitation.  (There was an interesting,
    albeit gruesom, article in New Scientist a few years ago -- when
    there was some discussion in England of reinstituting the death
    penelty -- on the humaneness of various forms of execution.  The
    conclusion was that the only form of execution in common use
    which is reliably humane is a large caliber gun in the head from point
    blank range.  Specifically, it must be large enough to reliably
    disintegrate the entire brain at that distance.)
    
    						Topher

    
    In the ever-famous words of Daffy Duck....
    
    "...easy, stomach, don't turn over now...."
    
    While the topic is fascinating and I intend to read all the replies,
    could you just give a teensy little warning and form-feed first
    before launching into the gory parts?
    
    Cindy

    
    On a humane basis, lethal injection is best. No pain, no near misses,
    no consciousness, death in just a few seconds.
    
    I would expect that a human head could be active for about 2 to
    3 minutes after separation.

    You may want to skip this topic altogether, Cindy...
    
    I'd like to see some more information on this topic, because there
    is a big problem with it.  To be pronounced dead, a person's brain must
    show an absence of electrical activity.  If there is electrical
    activity, that person is technically *alive,* so how can we talk
    about electrical activity in dead people?
                                                  
    
    RE: Decapitated heads
    
    No doubt a severed head lives for a short time after being removed.
    _The Vegetarian Alternative_ suggests that a decapitated head might
    live as long as 15 seconds.  
    
    I recall reading about the beheading of queen Mary, where the author
    stated that her lips moved for several seconds "as though trying
    to speak."
    
    John M.

    
    	Think that is gross?
    		How about bodies that still mimmic activity after the
    	brain is dead. (yea i know...an everyday occurance)
    		i have also heard that Post Mort. Brain Activity is
    	occuring in "some other" conferences? (this too is a lie)
    
    		Anyway... back to the subject...
    
    	What would the brain be thinking??? Adrenal glands would be
    happily(?) pumping away extending those seconds. Shock would obviously
    be a factor but what other physical/emotional thoughts/reactions
    would come into play???
    
    	A freaky experiance in deed but i think i shall wait a few years
    till i try it out. 

    Two or three minutes sounds a bit long to me, 15 seconds a bit short.
    The only relevant fact I know is from my Judo days: a "blood choke"
    well applied on a cooperating subject (for experimental purposes)
    results in unconsciousness in about 13 seconds.
    
          --- Mild gruesome warning ---
    
    The relevance of reports of apparent lifelike movements, particularly
    lip movements, in recently severed heads is questionable since similar
    movements would be automatic and sometimes would just by chance
    mimic "lifelike" movements.  In Japan, if someone was to be beheaded
    "honorably" their jaws were frequently bound to prevent their teeth
    from gnashing after the beheading in order to maintain some dignity.
    
    	 --- END of gruesomness ---
    
    I forget why the author of the article rejected lethal injection.
    Perhaps on ethical (i.e., the conflict for the supervising doctor)
    rather than on humanitarian grounds.
    
    I don't belive that brain-death refers to the cessation of *all*
    electrical activity, simply the organized electrical activity that
    EEGs are designed to detect (it is not clear of course that the
    lawmakers and judges understand the distinction.
    
    						Topher

    RE: .7 (Topher)
    
    So you used to practice judo too?  Perhaps we have a new way to
    settle our arguments!  :-)
    
    There is a big difference between simply restricting blood flow
    to the brain and dumping the blood OUT of the brain (exsanguination).
    The choke analogy does not hold (no pun intended).  Also, random
    electrical activity has been reported in a bowl of lime jello; such
    signals by no means suggest that life processes are
    continuing...particularly given that the brain is the "oxygen hog"
    of the body.  Where is the O2 coming from?
    
    John M.                                               
    

    The available oxygen is good for a very limited time.  In addition,
    under sever(e) stress (decapitation probably qualifies here) reactions
    will be slowed (mammalian diving response) or accelerated (fright
    response (adrenalin)).  Once the available oxygen is exhausted, other 
    than steady-state chemical reactions will be taking place.  Some of 
    these reactions could easily generate some electrical stimulation 
    causing muscle spasms (for example).
    
    As far as chemical reactions that could be described as "thought",
    I would expect those would be limited to a period of time of seconds.
    
    I'm going to have to start trying to communicate with my next bowl
    of lime jello.  {;-)
    
    Stan 

    Re .8 (John):
    
    > ....................................... Also, random
    >electrical activity has been reported in a bowl of lime jello; such
    >signals by no means suggest that life processes are
    >continuing...
     
    Doesn't preclude it either!  [Heh ... heh ... heh ...]
    
    I wonder how cherry Jello acts ...
    
    Re .9 (Stan):
    
    >I'm going to have to start trying to communicate with my next bowl
    >of lime jello.  {;-)
     
    I can tell you what it's saying now:  please don't eat me!  ;-)
                                                                   
    If it melts to a puddle, at least its ending approaches something
    sublime ... :-)  [Or is that "something slime" :-D]
    
    What's the water-to-protien ratio of a bowl of lime jello as compared
    to that of a human brain?  Maybe _all_ them-there measurements are
    off....       :-P
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    re: .10 (Steve)
    
    Well, I went home last night and made a bowl of lime jello to try
    this experiment.  We had some trouble communicating though.  There
    seemed to be a language barrier (foreign intelligence?) plus it 
    seemed to be mumbling.  All I was able to get was something about 
    some bad vibes about Bill Cosby.  {;-)
    
    Stan

I just haven't had the time to go to a university library and hunt down this
journal article. Random voltage fluctuations wouldn't surprise me a bit as
the oxygen-deprived brain fails to maintain a steady state and the ionic
balance across the nerve cell membrane becomes equilibrated.
I am interested in knowing, as mentioned in a previous reply, what 'pattern' of
electrical activity takes place.
One of the replies, Mitchell's I think, raises a very interesting question. If
death is formally defined as the absence of brain activity, and post mortem
'activity' has been shown to exist, wouldn't that get confusing.
If anyone lives near a university, and has the time, could you check this out ?
I'm way up in sticks in new hampsha, no fancy libraries here.


Peter

    	Upon recollection I now realize there have been numerous 
    	significant moments in my life when I have *distinctly* 
    	felt like a bowl of lime jello.  Wobbly, gelatinous, and 
    	just a tinge green.  Not to mention displaying a complete 
    	lack of coherence.  Yes, I must say it *is* possible to 
    	transmogrify oneself into this phenonmenon, although next 
    	time it happens I'll aim for ruby red jello.  (Sounds more 
    	exciting!)
    
    						Carla
    

    
    Carla,
    
    You sure that is wasn't your HS connecting up with the HS of the
    jello mass?   Never can tell.....
                
    I'll leave the cherry red jello reference alone, though it does 
    beg for some sort of comeback.  (;^)
    
    Cindy

    I've met alot of people who seem to have a head full of
    grey jello.
    
    What flavor is grey jello?
    
    
    Bob in NYC

    re: .14 (Cindy)
    
    >>	You sure that is wasn't your HS connecting up with the HS of 
    >>	the jello mass?
    
    	Miscalculating on the astral, no doubt.  "Whoops!  Aiming for
    	communication with Mark Twain!  Sorry 'bout that Conscious
    	Self!"  ;-)
    
    >>	...though it does beg for some sort of comeback.  (;^)
    
    	Only if you've a predisposition for riverboats...
    
    				Enigmatically yours,  Carla
    

    Re .15 nm(Bob):
    
    >What flavor is grey jello?
    
    Like Earl's Tea. :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    grey jello = dust bunny flavor
    

    Re .17
    

    Re .19 (Bob):
    
    Wes Craven is a director of horror films.  Some of the flicks are
    pretty entertaining.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
    
    Re .17 (Me):
    
    "Earl Grey" is the name of a fairly popular British tea, for those
    who didn't make the connection. 

    
    
    
    Who's the Post-Mortem dust bunny?
    
    
    
    
    guy
    

>    Who's the Post-Mortem dust bunny?

Altho known ath the Ether Bunny.