Conference hydra::dejavu

    I have  no  experience  of  Cartouche  cards,  but  have  used Tarot 
    extensively.  I  suspect  that  the  comment  about  cards reversing 
    themselves  reduces  it almost to the level of a parlor game.  Cards 
    however are much more serious than that.
    
    With the Tarot, I usually start with the cards completely sorted (ie 
    in numerical order and all upright).  Then in  the  presence  of the 
    person  for  whom I am doing the reading I shuffle the cards and cut 
    the deck  in  three  parts  and  reverse  one  part,  repeating  the 
    procedure  three times in all.  I then hand the cards to the subject 
    and ask them to go through the same procedure.
    
    I can't say what would be an  appropriate  shuffling  procedure  for 
    cartouche cards though.
    
    /. Ian .\

    I also seem to have a problem with right-side-up, wrong-side-down
    tarot cards.
    
    Currently I am reading a book which states that one should have two
    decks.  One for spiritual issues and one for mundane (material) issues.
    
    My first deck is for spiritual issues and is the Mythic Tarot deck.
    That particular deck doesn't use inverted interpretation.  This
    seems to work well for me (with limited experience).  This deck
    I use for spiritual issues.
    
    My second deck, bought two days ago, is the Hansen-Roberts deck.
    It uses inverted interpretations.  I use this one for mundane issues.
    
    Now I have to learn 3 different interpretations.  Too much!!
    
    Perhaps I need to use just one deck and forget the other. I don't
    know.  The mythic deck jumped out at me and gave me a nice greeting
    but the other deck feels better and is easier to use.
    
      Mikie?

    The only person I read for is myself, currently, and I tend to read
    inverted cards in more the spirit that astrologers today read
    retrograde planets.  That being that the energy in question, symbolized
    by the card, is smoehow hidden, introverted, perhaps unconscious
    or blocked.  I am interpreting usually in a psychological fashion,
    rather than a mundane fashion.  I therefore find inverted cards
    quite valuable to discovering "hidden agendas" regarding particular
    positions in a spread.  For me, they are always worth reflecting on
    to figure out what I might be either deliberately or unintentionally
    ignoring.
    
    I begin a shuffle by first shuffling the cards once, then fanning
    them over the table (or floor) and mixing them thoroughly, then
    gathering them together into a pile and gently tapping and shifting
    that pile 'til all the cards are aligned on the same axis again.
    Then I shuffle once more, do the final cut, and lay them out.  After
    a reading I go through the deck and, as a way of "cleaning" it, set
    all the cards right-side-up before putting it away.
    
    Marcia

Sorry I don't have the reference here, but I remember reading a book about
card games that pointed out from a statistical standpoint that it takes a
surprisingly large amount of shuffling to significantly change the order of
a deck of cards. It takes about 7 shuffles (if I remember right) to get
things good and mixed, and after about 12 shuffles the cards are as mixed as
they ever get. This assumes a "perfect" shuffle in which the deck is cut
exactly in half and the top and bottom halves interleaved one by one. It's
very non-obvious and counter-intuitive, but then readers of this conference
are used to such things, no?

Don

RE: .4
    
    Close, but you are mixing (no pun intended) two different things
    together.  This is not surprising since the writer/lecturer who
    pushes both of these ideas is the same person Persei Diaconis (sp?).
    
    If I remember correctly, it takes a minimum of 5 and preferably
    about 8 standard "riffle" shuffles to get a 52 card deck thouroughly
    shuffled.  This is *not* for perfect shuffles, but for well done
    ordinary shuffles.
    
    A fixed number (eight I believe) perfect shuffles will restore a
    deck of 52 cards to its original order.
    
    			Topher

    Re: .4 & .5
    
    When I shuffle, I only use the standard riffle technique once. 
    I played a lot of solitaire at one time and had noticed, perhaps
    subliminally, that a certain number of shuffles restored the cards'
    original order.  So when doing shuffles for a reading, I tend to
    either not use, or use the standard technique only once.
    
    What are the other techniques I use?  
    
      o One I described already, that of spreading the cards over
    	a flat surface, mixing like dough, and gathering them together
    	again.
    
      o Another is what I call the "inside out" shuffle.  Hold the deck
    	in one hand.  Starting from bottom of the deck, take the bottom 
        card in your opposite hand (the one not holding the deck); place 
    	the new bottom card on top of the single card, the next bottom 
    	card below it, the next bottom card on top, the next bottom card 
    	below, and so forth, until you have transferred the entire deck 
    	to your other hand.  I like to do this as a first shuffle, since 
    	it allows me to touch every card at least once (and get my 
    	energies of the moment into the entire deck? that's how it 
    	feels . . .).
    
      o do Inside Out with 1/2 the deck, then riffle it the rest of the 
    	deck;

      o Top to Bottom Riffle:  this is done taking the bottom card, 
    	sandwiching it between the two top cards, sandwiching those
	between 5 bottom cards, sandwiching those between the top
    	7, and so forth.  This is sort of ridiculous and complex
	but I've found it helpful as a starting shuffle when my
	mind is so scattered that I can't concentrate in the correct
        manner.  I discovered a nifty correlation to this when taking
        lessons in hypnosis--to put the chattering "rational" mind
        to sleep, I was told to count backwards from 500 by 3's. 
    	Same thing it seems--give the "rational" mind something
        complex and boring and eventually it will tune out.
    
    Does anyone else out there shuffle their cards in non-standard ways?
    (By non-standard, I mean other than riffling.)
    
    Marcia

RE: .6
    
    The deck is restored to order with multiple shuffles (I checked,
    it is 8) only if you do perfect shuffles.  The riffle shuffle is
    close to being a "chaotic" process.  Small errors are multiplied
    with each succeeding shuffle so that enough shuffles (eight or so)
    produce effective randomness.  Somewhat confusingly, only small
    errors are multiplied, if you tend to clump your cards too much
    as you drop them (e.g., drop 4 or 5 at a time rather than 1 or 2)
    then you will need many more shuffles to get it to turn out right.
    
    Eight or more shuffles is a lot of shuffles.  When playing solitaire
    (patience for any Brits reading this) I mix in a few "overhand"
    shuffles (described below) and this seems adequate, at least for
    this type of work.
    
    There are actually two riffle shuffle patterns, and at least two
    types of riffle shuffle.  The two shuffle patterns are called an
    "in shuffle" and an "out shuffle" but I can never remember which
    is which.  The difference is whether the first card you drop was
    in the middle of the deck or at the bottom originally.  Eight is
    the number if you keep the bottom card at the bottom.  With a perfect
    shuffle, if you use the shuffle which keeps the bottom card at the
    bottom, then you also keep the top card at the top.  If you use
    the other pattern then it takes 52 perfect shuffles to restore the
    deck (this is not a general principle, which type of shuffle is
    faster depends very much on the size of the deck used).
    
    As for the two types of riffle shuffles -- most people riffle shuffle
    by holding the two half decks by the tops and bottoms of the cards,
    thumbs on the "tops".  They are then placed top to top and shuffled
    together.  The side riffle consists of holding the two decks by
    the sides with the thumbs near the "upper" side corners.  They are
    held almost side-by-side but tilting somewhat towards each other.
    They are then riffled together at the upper side corners where the
    thumbs are.
    
    I know of two other standard non-riffle shuffles, the overhand shuffle
    and the Hindu shuffle.  In the descriptions, I assume, for convenience,
    a right handed shuffler.
    
    In the overhand shuffle, the deck is held in the right hand by top
    and bottom, the bottom card facing the palm of the and.  The left
    hand is cupped under the right hand at right angles.  A small packet
    of cards is dropped from the top of the pack into the left hand.
    Then another small packet is dropped from the top of the pack in
    the right onto the top of the pack in the left.  This is repeated
    until all the cards have been dropped into the left hand.
    
    The Hindu shuffle is similar in principle, but different in practice.
    The cards are held in the right hand from above.  The cards face
    down with the backs facing the palm of the right hand, which holds
    them from the sides.  The left hand is held below as if you were
    about to drop the whole deck into it.  The left hand reaches up
    with the thumb and index and grasps a small packet at the top of
    the deck in the right hand.  It then pulls that packet forward towards
    the top of the deck, until the bottom edge of the packet clears
    the top edge of the deck.  The packet is then let drop into the
    palm of the left hand.  The left hand is brought back under the
    right and the process is repeated with each packet being dropped
    on top of the packet before it.  The last packet is simply dropped
    directly on the top of the rest of the deck which is by that time
    in the left hand.
    
    All three shuffles can be used almost undetectably in "false" shuffles
    to produce various sleight-of-hand effects.
    
    Of course, there are also lots of different ways and patterns to
    simply cut a deck.
    
    		Topher
    

    ........remember the Cosmic Muffin!
    
    			Samurai Writer