Conference hydra::dejavu

    You'll find a lot of heavy duty info in NOTE # 8  I've never used
    one!  After reading note 8........I never will!
    
    
                                                       J. Waters

    	You might want to do this command:
    
    	DIR/TITLE=notename
    
    	This will help you locate a particular topic in any Notes
    directory.
    
    	Larry
    

    I have had experiences with boards, as an observer.  I too
    "knew" it was actually a "personality" speaking.  And I
    understand what a "heavy" experience it is.  More so for 
    you, with a close one speaking to you.
    
    Above all, approach this experience with a very very positive
    state of mind.  If you would like to send me MAIL off line,
    I can provide a protection chant.  And surround yourself with
    white light before each session.  
    
    I was told that "spirits" don't like artificial light, you may
    want to sustitute candles.
    
    Above all, record your sessions!  It helps to have a 3rd person
    to write all this down.  Remember, you have protective guides
    and if you feel and think positively about the experience, it
    can be very enlightening for you.
    
    Keep us posted, okay?
    
    Oh, yes, you may want to burn insense also, to represent one
    of the 4 elements (candle= fire and light  incense=air and
    sprinkle salt and water to represent water and earth)
    air
    

    "It helps to have a 3rd person to write all this down."
    
    This is the traditional method.  For example, it was the way that
    all of the Patience Worth material was collected.
    
    If you have trouble figuring out what things spell as the letters
    are presented one by one, it is still the prefered method.
    
    If you don't have that problem, though, a cheap tape recorder is
    usable, and may be better.  Unless your human recorder is a good
    stenographer, they may record the human questions/comments
    inaccurately.  Since the Ouija Board may be responding to those
    questions/comments the whole conversation may be distorted by this.
    
    "I was told that `spirits' don't like aritifical light..."
    
    I've heard this before, and some people are quite insistent on it.
    While other people, quite successfully, operate in normal modern
    room light.  The difference may lie in the particular entities, or
    (more likely it seems to me) in the person(s) "channeling".  For
    this to work, the channel has to open up.  Some people may find
    that electric lights interfere with the proper mood for them, others
    may not.  Use what works best for you.  Experiment -- with your
    contacts permission.
    
    					Topher

    	Pardon this "scientific intrusion", but how can your using incense
    as a representative of one of the four "elements" be accurate, when
    we know now there are at least 92 NATURAL elements?
    
    	I mean - earth, air, fire, and water are NOT elements in
    themselves, so wouldn't that not work as part of the "protection"
    ritual?  I would think that any "spirits" would be quite aware of
    this fact, since they have such a better perspective on things
    (this comment is not meant to be mocking or humorous). 
    
    	Larry
     

    I am not "scientific" enough to debate this intelligently.
    Perhaps we are each using the term "element" to mean some-
    thing else.  I have been told, and have read, that the
    four basic elements are fire, earth, air and water.  For
    example, each astrological sign falls into one of these
    catagories (as well as others).  Coincidentally, just last
    night it was explained that there are 5 elements, in a star
    pattern:
    
    
    
                                 Light
    
    
    
             Air                                    Fire
    
    
    
        
    
                   Earth                 Water
    
    
    
    I don't pretend to understand everything about this concept, just
    the basic information.
    
    

    re: .5
    
    > I would think thta any "spirits" would be quite aware of this
    > fact, since they have such a better perspective on things
    
    This is not necessarily the case.  I think of the elements in
    terms of astrology - earth, air, fire and water.  I am not aware
    of the actual number of elements that there are physically.  If
    I had passed to spirit before I read your note, I would be no
    more aware than I was here.
    
    We are all "spirit" - some of us are in bodies and some of us are
    not.  We don't change a whole lot when we die, other than for 
    leaving our physical bodies behind.  Just because we have passed
    into spirit doesn't make us all knowing.  We are today a sum total of
    all we have ever been, and being in the "spirit" world is just another 
    stage of our journey.
    
    Carole
     

    Before the discovery, through modern chemistry, et al, of the 92
    elements in the periodic table, ancient and Midieval scientists,
    physicians, philosophers, mages, astrologers, etc. believed in the
    4 elements mentioned.  These were called Fire, Earth, Air and Water.
    Now, these are symbols we are working with here.  A modern view
    correlates these symbols with 4 chief aspects of a living being:
    
    	Fire   =  the will & "divine spark"
        Earth  =  the physical self
        Air    =  the mental self
    	Water  =  the emotional self
    
    These four are used in astrology to classify the energy style of
    the 12 Zodiac signs.
    
    The 4 element concept also appears in the Tarot suits, with the
    following correlations:
    
    	Fire  = Rods
    	Earth = Pentacles
    	Air   = Swords
    	Water = Cups
    
    There are also, in certain magical traditions, beings called
    Elementals, who characterize these symbolic elements:
    
    	Fire elemental =	Salamander (no, not the lizard)
    	Earth elemental =	Gnome (no, not the deformed dwarfs of
    				       popular fairy tales)
    	Air elemental =		Sylph
    	Water elemental =	Undine
    
    While the concept of the four elements may not be "valid" from
    a scientific point of view, it has great value from a symbolic,
    psychological (and therefore psychic) point of view.  It reminds 
    us that we are more than we are taught we are.  Many people who
    I have read charts for have over-identified with their mental selves
    (air "element") or physical selves (earth "element").
    
    It also makes sense to me that if one engages in psychic experimental
    work, one may want to protect not just one aspect, but all aspects
    of the self.  The rituals that somehow combine all the 4 elements with
    an appropriate prayer or blessing may call down the protection of
    the appropriate elemental, or may simply make one properly alert and
    vigilant during the experience.  Either way they have value.
    
    The nicest ritual of this type that I read about was to:
    
    	Burn			(symbolizing Fire)
    	Incense, Wood or Herbs	(symbolizing Earth)
    	In a Seashell		(symbolizing Water)
        And the Rising Smoke symbolizes Air.
    
    Marcia

    For incense you might try burning the herb sage.  It has a pleasant
    fragrance and supposedly has "cleansing" properties that I cannot
    elaborate on.  Could anyone else tell us anything about burning
    sage?
    
    		Dave

    Re .last_several:
    
    Marcia:  A small adjustment --
    
    An equallyu valid tradition involves the exchange of the elements
    in the Tarot swords and rods, making it:
    
    	Rods = Air
        Swords = Fire
        Cups = Water
        Pentacles/Coins/Shields = Earth
    
    (Swords are forged in fire [and fire burns wood, as in Rods])
    
    The origin of the "elements" goes back to ancient Greece, at least,
    where the philosophers thought that all matter could be broken down
    to these basics.  Wood, for instance, if burned, would leave an
    ash [that looked earthlike] and so was thought of as being composed
    of a combination of Earth and Fire.  Thales of Miletus, for instance,
    thought water was the basis of everything, and so that became one
    of the classic Four.
    
    The great magus, Apollonius of Tyana, thought there was a fifth
    "element": the Ether (corresponds to the Spirit).  But that's secondary
    to this discussion.
    
    The elements are symbolically linked in modern terms _not_ to the
    atomic elements, but to the states of matter:
    
    	Earth = solid
    	Water = liquid
        Air = gas
        Fire = plasma
    
    Because the ancients didn't differentiate between the states of
    matter and their chemical composition, the early alchemists thought
    that by making the right combination of the "basic" elements, they
    could recreate whatever substance they wanted; this was the origin
    of the "turning lead into gold" myth.  Later alchemists understood
    that the true quest was symboliuc/spiritual rather than material.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Re .9:
    
    Sage might not be the perfect one to use in an elemental ritual.
    Traditionally Sage is a male-aspect herb associated with Jupiter
    and with an Earth-element link.  It's good for healing.
    
    Sandalwood is air-linked, associated with the Moon, and has a feminine
    aspect; it's used in protection and purification  (also healing)
    and would be a good choice.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
    

    I'm impressed!  Each of you has explained very nicely what I
    was fumbling to say!  Thank you!  And I've learned a lot from
    this discussion; I "knew" what the elements were, and why they
    were important, but now I also "understand".  
    
    I especially enjoyed the relationship explained between an indi-
    viduals aspects (mental, emotional, etc) and the 4 elements.
    
    Again, thank you all for the input.
    

    Sage is used by Native American Shamans to cleanse and purify, much
    as many others use water and/or salt to purify.
    
    However, they only burn it to a limited degree.  They also just
    keep it around them, in it's fresh or dried form.
    
    Elizabeth

    RE: .13
    
    When our physical bodies die and we pass into the astral world,
    we experience exactly what we expect to experience.  This can be
    a continuation of what we were experiencing here, or perhaps it
    becomes the heaven or hell that we are expecting.  It sounds like
    George did, and experienced, some heavy things while in the physical
    body, and at the same time had a strong belief in hell.  He's 
    experiencing the punishment he "expected".  Hopefully he will reach
    the point where he realizes that he does not have to stay there
    - that he has a choice.  He can look back on what he has done and
    experienced, learn from them, and then take the next step in his
    life journey.  Once these realizations come to him, he will become
    aware of friends in spirit that are there to assist him along his
    way.
    
    A spirit teacher once described an interesting scene - there are
    places where large numbers of people have gone after their physical
    deaths.  They are lying down and asleep - row after row of them.
    This is occurring because of their belief system - they believe
    that they will sleep until their "Saviour" comes to awaken them
    on judgement day.  As their friends and loved ones in spirit try
    to awaken them, they fight it because they have been taught that
    false saviours will try to do this and lead them astray.
    
    Interesting image, and certainly food for thought.
    
    Carole

    	SF writer Jerry Pournelle wrote a novel called INFERNO, where
    the main characters - who were sent to Hell (the Christian version)
    - eventually found a way to escape it, becasue one of the characters
    had learned that Hell was not everlasting and inescapable, but just
    a way of testing and purifying people to make them "acceptable"
    in higher realities.
    
    	The Catholic faith gave this "purification" ability to souls
    with the "creation" of Purgatory - an afterlife where souls are
    punished for their non-mortal sins "only" until the end of time
    - not all eternity - where they are then considered pure enough
    to enter Heaven and see God.
    
    	Larry
    

RE .16
    
    Minor nit, INFERNO (originally published under the much more
    appropriate title [in my opinion] INFERNOLAND) was written by Larry
    Niven and Jerry Pournelle.  On the basis of style and theme, I would
    guess that Niven did the bulk of the writing.
    
    				Topher
    

    I DESCRIBE AN INCREDABLE EXPERIENCE AND I GET EVERYONES EXPLANATION
    OF WHAT IT IS,WHAT I SHOULD DO,AND A ONGOING DISCUSSION ON THE ELEMENTS
    INCENSE.I KNOW WHAT I AM EXPERIENCING IS REAL.IF ANYONE HAS HAD
    AN EXPERIENCE LIKE MINE SEND ME MAIL,SINCE I WAS LOOKING FOR COMMENTS
    AND SUGGESTIONS RELATING TO A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE LIKE MINE.THIS
    IS SERIOUS BUSINESS NOT A GAME NOT MY SUBCONSCIENCE.
                                                MIKE
    

    Re .18:
    
    Mike, I don't think people are going off in as much of a tangent
    as you think.  What some were suggesting were ways to help protect
    yourself against possibly malefecent influences.
    
    If you review 242 from the base note, you'll see that many people
    suggest Ouija boards are dangerous tools to play around with.  I
    concur, unless you're an expert in these things (and then there
    are better ways than Ouija boardsto get the same data).  But since
    you're already involved, what the discussions were trying to do
    was to give you suggestions that might help you; the seeming
    digressions were to clarify points.
    
    One of the other notes has a protection ritual or two that might
    be some help, too.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    	What happended to the original note?
    
    	Larry
    

    Re .20:
    
    Presumably, the writer, who (per .18) got disgusted, removed it.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    	I hope the original writer of this note realizes that we were
    actually trying to help him, and naturally sometimes when you're
    trying to solve a problem you have to ask different questions.
    
    	I do not believe anyone was taking lightly his situation.
    
    	Larry
    

    I am the original writer of this note.I deleted it because i felt
    it produced a wrong response.For example,insence and a disscussion
    of the representations of the elements is only background info.I
    can get that from a book on the subject.I had one response suggesting
    that my experience was my subconscience and therefore saying it
    wasnt a real spirit.This i received on mail.I felt people were taking
    over the note by discussing among themselves and seem to have forgotten
    the originater.Im sure people were well intentioned and want to
    help and i appreciate that but i am very sensitive in many different
    ways and felt the way i did.I also feel talking to people about
    HIM is hindering communication because HE became aware of it and
    was VERY displeased.I invite people to tell me of their experiences
    by mail if they can that is what i am looking for.Thanks.
                                                    MIKE
    

    Mike, I am going to respond thru DEJAVU, rather than thru mail.
    
    First of all, communicating thru a board has it's dangers.  You
    are opening a channel over which you may not have full control.
    Hence, the discussion on incense, candles, etc.  They are simply
    means to provide a more "positive" and hopefully, safer, atmosphere.
    
    Second-you are essentially having a conversation.  If you were com-
    municating with another via telephone, I would not suggest possible
    topics of conversation, nor would I relate my conversations with
    others.  However, I might advise you on "operational" issues.
    
    Finally, if "he" is uncomfortable-and from your description, "he"
    sounds like a rather confused personality, with some unresolved
    issues, I would question what he wants from you, and why he feels
    that your communication should remain secretive.
    
    My own experiences with a board were with a designated guide- a
    teacher, so to speak, who was communicating for a specific purpose.
    Not to "chit chat" (although we did have moments of idle conversa-
    tion), but to use the medium as a learning/teaching experience.
    
    If I recall your base note correctly, you were asking if anyone
    else had had a similar experience, and for advise.  Which is what
    you received.  In other words, you used NOTES as a board to com-
    municate and to learn.
    
    Frankly, I don't understand why you seem frustrated and upset by
    the responses you received.  What exactly were you looking for?
    
    

    
    THIS is what i am looking for as i have already stated:Any experiences
    anyone has had that is like mine.Comments and suggestions relating
    to that experience for example:what are the results of the experience
    and what things did you try and how did they work.It must be based
    on actual first hand experience.I am aware of what i am dealing
    with and am taking caution.What is most useful to me is knowledge
    from direct experience.My situation may be unique because of the
    possibility(im not totaly convinced yet)that my first wife is making
    contact through the medium of the board.She died 4 mos.ago by suicide.
    

    	As was suggested before - have you read DEJAVU Note 8?  It contains
    numerous personal experiences by others who have used this medium
    of contact.                          

        Perhaps you could write to those people to get a personal 
    response to your questions from them.
    
    	Larry
    

    Re .27:
    
    An Ouija board may not be the best way to do this under any
    circumstances.
    
    The influences of an Ouija board could be any of the following:
    
    a) The specific spirit desired.
    b) Another spirit masquerading as the desired one.
    c) Another spirit representing itself
    d) Another spirit masquerading as some third spirit.
    e) Another entity (e.g., demon) masquerading as any of
       the above spirits.
    f) Another entity not identifying itself.
    g) None of the above: 1) subconscious actions
                          2) parasensory prompts
                          3) self delusions.
    
    Before trying an Ouija, get reradings and other advice (say, a Taroot
    reading or equivalent abnalysis).
    
    Then, if you _must_, work with someone experienced in these matters.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

     RE: .27

     The astral plane, which is the plane we proceed to after the death 
     of our physical body, is a very natural state.  We stay there for 
     varying lengths of time, depending on what our individual life
     process is.  Some souls can stay there for a very long time if
     they become what's termed "earthbound" (unable to let go of the
     physical experience) or because of their own beliefs are unable
     to open up to the fact that they can move on.  We experience the
     "death" of the astral body and proceed to the lower mental plane.
     After a time in this realm, we experience the dealth of this
     body and proceed to the high mental plane, which is where our
     Higher Self resides.  This is also called the causal plane and
     we reside there in our "causal body" for the duration of time we
     feel we need to reincarnate in a physical body. 

     Because the astral plane is closest to the physical plane and
     memories are still somewhat clear, those who reside there are 
     usually the ones who communicate.  There are those entities
     who reside on the "higher" planes who can slow down their
     vibration enough to connect with us and communicate with us
     directly.  This takes quite a bit of effort.  

     Most "evidential" communication comes from those residing on
     the astral plane.  Most "inspirational" communication comes
     from the higher planes.

     If you feel drawn to your great-grandfather and want to hear
     from him, why don't you try a reading with a medium?  I'm not
     sure where you are located - if you are in Massachusetts, I
     know of a very good medium in Brookline.  Let me know if you
     want more info.

     Regards, Carole

    RE: .4
    
    This note hasn't had a reply in a while, and I don't know if anyone
    will see this to answer my question, but I was just wondering if
    someone could tell me who Patience Worth is.  I read reply .4 and
    there was a reference to Patience Worth.  It piqued my curiosity.
    If someone could tell me who she is/was, I'd really appreciate it.
    
                           Thanks!
          
                           Jennifer
    

RE: .30 (Jennifer)
    
    (Jennifer, most of us read DEJAVU regularly by using the NEXT UNSEEN
    feature of NOTES.  We will thus see any new notes without regard to
    whether or not they are replies to old "inactive" notes.  I recommend
    to new readers that they set up *two* DEJAVU entries in their
    notebooks, say DEJAVU and DEJAVU_BACK.  Go into DEJAVU and say "SET
    SEEN", this will mark *all* the notes in that entry as seen.  When
    you then enter that entry you will find only those notes posted since
    last time you entered it.  The other entry can be used for reviewing
    what was posted before you "joined" DEJAVU, it will start at the
    earliest note and work up when you hit NEXT UNSEEN.)
    
    Anyway --
    
    Patience Worth was a well-known, extensively published author, poet
    and raconteur of the 20's.  Her writing and poetry, while hardly of
    the quality to live down the ages, is far above average.  She was
    friends with many literary and intellectual figures of the day.
    
    The only problem is -- she didn't exist in the conventional sense.  She
    was "channeled" (as we would now say) through a Ouija Board.  She
    claimed to have lived in (I think) Ireland, several centuries earlier.
    Unlike most channeled entities, her grammar and vocabulary was quite
    consistant, and included many obscure pieces of archaic slang. 
    Furthermore, one linguist declared that her vocabulary, though only
    slightly odd sounding and archaic to a modern ear, was quite unusual
    in that it contained only a small percentage of words of Norman (Latin)
    origin.  However, her slang terms were not consistently from a single
    location or village -- they were quite a hodge-podge of late middle-
    English peasant dialects.
    
    The material, including a novel, was dictated through the ouija board,
    without notes and in apparently polished, "edited, final draft" form
    in sessions sometimes lasting hours.  The channeler would frequently
    be engaging in coherent, unrelated conversations with friends while
    this was going on.
    
    All this would *seem* to be beyond the capabilities of a middle-class
    midwestern housewife, of limited education and without apparent
    intellectual interests.
    
    All in all, though there are some questionable claims made, it is a
    stunning case, with very good documentation.
    
    A rather good popular book came out a few years ago about it, entitled
    "Singer in the Shadows".  I forget the author (a journalist), but can
    check for you.
    
    						Topher

    Do any U.K noters know where I can get a board??
    
    ������� paid
    
    I'm very experienced with ouija, but, alas, have lost my board. (long
    story)
    
    Tony Absolom @rdl
    

    Wow almost a year later................. My comment upon reading all
    these notes, is the gentleman named Mike, I believe, wanted this file
    to contain more of peoples shared experiences of the ouija, so we could
    compare and discuss some of the strange dealings that evolve from the
    use of the ouija. 
    
    Since reading this node, I have been trying to bring back some of my
    experiences from when I used the ouija years ago. I believe maybe I'm
    blocking these experiences out!/? It's very intriging to me and i would
    like to hear some more of your experiences.
    
    Thanks...........Beccy

    re -1
    
    "I believe maybe I'm blocking these experiences out"
    
    Maybe you were abducted and taken on "board"
    
    ;^)
    
    john

I apologize if this has already been asked, but does anyone know of the
origin of the word "ouija"? My dictionary doesn't have it. Thanks very much.

Re .35:

The word "Ouija," which is a trademark of Parker Brothers, Inc., is merely
a combination of the French "oui," and the German "ja," both meaning "yes."

Looks Oriental, though, doesn't it?

Steve Kallis,  Jr.

> a combination of the French "oui," and the German "ja,"

Wow, so I guess it's the "yes yes" board -- always tells you what you
want to hear :-). You sure it wasn't P.T. Barnum who invented this thing?