Conference 7.286::sports_90

I've done a number or two on the clutch in my time.

Usually in a_alcoholic stupor though.....

'Saw

    Will The Thrill ... yeah, the A's pitchers were just TOO THRILLed
    to see him up there lasted World Series !
    
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!

    Best clutch hitter I ever saw was Thurman Munson.  I dare say fans of
    opposing teams who played the Yankees back then, such as Oriole fans,
    Red Sox fans and Royal fans, wwould have a hard time disagreeing with
    me.
    
    Anyone else who has been a great clutch hitter would be a distant
    second in my mind to Munson.  Unless, of course, it's Lou Pinella. 
    Having those two in the same lineup was one of the main reasons the
    Yankees flourished in the mid to late 70s.
    
    Dan

    Dan, you wouldn't happen to be a Yankees fan, would you?  
    
    Mark.

    RE:.2
    Who's your baseball team?
    
                                                      WILL THE THRILL
    

    Steve,
    
    Give_me_a_break!!!!!He He He He He!!!! Your drinking COORS again.
    That sh!t does brain damage.
    
    
                                   WILL THE THRILL-8^)
    

    This note does not pass the muster of the Apostrophe Police.  It
    gets 30 days in jail.  Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
    
    Officer Ninja

    Kirk Gibson. 

    Mike Scioscia is another fine example. Just asked Doc Gooden. He said
    he was to BLAM!!!

    
      	Yo debil, why don't you go drink some chocolate milk or something.
    
    
    Best clutch hitter:
    
    Mookie Wilson.  :-)
    
    
                                                 Glen J. 

    Hey, Steve,
    You p'i'c'k'e'd  t'h'r'e'e!
    Ain't fair!
    
    		 Tom_on_Coors

    Michael Jack Schmidt
    

    
    
    Don Mattingly
    

    Number 1
    
    Tony Perez! He was the best... The main piston in the Big Red Machine
    of the 70s'
    
    Number 2 
    
    Reggie Jackson! Big game player...
    
    Number 3
    
    Frank Robinson! MVP in both leagues...
    
    REK

    It hurts me to say something nice about a Yankee, but I'd have to
    vote for:
    
    
    
    				Yogi Berra
    
    One of the alltime best hitters when the chips were down and men
    in scoring position.  NO pitch was a waste pitch, not over his head,
    or at his ankles, or outside or inside.  Yogi always felt that it
    was a "good" pitch if he could reach it.  He made Ted Williams sick,
    according to Ted.
    
    Lee

    LeE, that's not fair, you're the only one in this conference old enough
    to remember Yogi Berra's playing days....8^)

    As Dan said, Munson.
    
    Carlton Fisk also comes to mind.  Boy, when the Yankees and Sox
    played each other during the 70's.....
    
    Mark.

    >As Dan said, Munson.
    
    Wise choice, Mark.
    
    Dan

    I always though Chris Chambliss was a great clutch hitter.  IN fack,
    Chambliss  was the guy I most feared on those Yankee teams.
    
    Pudge Fisk.
    
    Keith Hernandez.
    
    JD

    
    	Willie 'Pops' Stargell.  MVP of '79 Series, when Pirates came back
    from being down 3-1 against Baltimore.
    
    	Never saw him play, but I would have to think that Mickey Mantle
    was a great clutch hitter.  18 HR's in World Series action.
    
    						 Glen J.
    

    I agree on Pops Stargell.
    
    Reggie Jackson as well. In fact, I think his reputation helped him
    even when he was struggling.
    
    Joe Morgan was fantastic in the clutch. I remember in 1980, it seemed
    like Joe was in the middle of every Astro rally. And I remember
    with the Phils a couple of years later, it seemed like pitchers
    would rather go after free-swinging Mike Schmidt rather than Morgan,
    who seldom went after a bogus pitch ....
    
    As a pinch hitter, I swear Denny Walling looked automatic. He'll never
    be remembered in the same breath as Yogi Berra, but he was tough
    as heck in the late 70's-early 80's.
                                                   
    George Brett and Tony Perez are a couple of other players.
    
    And how about Joe Rudi ? He'd go 1-5, but guess when he'd get that
    one hit ??? Ouch .... in fact 1/2 of those great A's teams were
    that way ....
    
    FInally, I've one question :
    
    Why are there no votes for Wade Boggs ? :-)
    
    Dr M
    

    Wardle, it may be true that I'm that old, but remember that not
    that many games were televised back then.  
    
    I'm basing my vote for Yogi on interview with other players of his
    time, as well as various comments I've heard over the years from
    writers and commentators.  Also, I've been reading his biography,
    which is a real treat.  Lot's of comments about his quotes in it,
    and his explanation of some of them.  Of of my favorites was when
    he told his players on the Astros to "Pair off in threes".  :*)
    
    There are also some stories in there, from interviews with other
    players, about Yogi's intelligence in baseball.  One comment was
    that Yogi was, during his coaching years, the most knowledgable
    person in the game, period.
    
    While he drifts from subject to subject, I'm finding it very
    informative and entertaining.  Yogi is quite a man, husband, father
    and friend, in addition to his time in the game.
    
    He was the first pinch-hitter to hit a homer in W.S.
    
    Lee

    Dr M, I still consider Gates Brown as the best pinch-hitter of my
    time.  Before your time, I'd guess, but that guy was incredible
    in 1968 for the Tigers.   Anyone have his stats for that year?
    
    Lee

    Yo Walt ! You've the stats on Gates Brown ?
    
    Lee, I've heard a lot about the man, and I'd agree. Like you said,
    he was slightly before my time. 
    
    Another PH extrodianre is Manny Mota. Is it true that he and Candy
    Maldanado are the same person ? :-)
    
    DrM

Gates Brown... 

I remember him.  Isn't he the guy who looked like he had no neck,
kinda the Kirby Puckett/FirePlug of his day?

Yeah, I remember him....

'Saw

    'Saw, maybe you're thinking of Walt "No Neck" Williams?
    
    H�wk

No, there was a guy on the Tigers in '68.  Maybe it wasn't
Brown....

But I do remember that Brown was built like a fireplug, and that
not too many pitchers liked to see him come up to the plate.

I was only 9 at the time, and the mist that shrouds those halcyon
memories of youth sometimes is too translucent to penetrate...

Chainsaw

    Willie Horton..... man, he had some big hits that 68 season...
    
    REK

That's it!!!!!!


Thanks REK.  I've been sitting here racking my brain for the last 
half hour....

Yes, 1968 was a special year for Baseball, what with MacLaine winning
30+ games...

'Saw

    
    Willie Horton?  Was that before he was sent up the river?
    
    BTW, that wasn't Walt "No Neck" Williams, that was Don "No Soul"
    Simmons you're thinking of.
    

� Yes, 1968 was a special year for Baseball, what with MacLaine winning
� 30+ games...

� 'Saw

	Hey Frank, I didn't know Shirley was reincarnated as a pitcher.
Must've been between movies eh?  8^)

				/Don

    re Gates Brown:
    
    My favorite Gates Brown story is one I think I told in an earlier
    version of SPORTS, but I'll repeat anyway.  As an earlier note said,
    Gates wasn't one who missed many meals...one day, Gates got hungry
    during the early stages of a game, and asked the clubhouse boy to sneak
    him a couple of hot dogs.  Gates figured that since he usually wasn't
    called on to pinch hit until the late innings, he could hide the hot
    dogs from the manager and eat them while he wasn't looking.  Wouldn't
    you know it, that day Gates gets called on to pinch hit right after he
    got the hot dogs.  With no place to hide them, Gates stuffed them in
    his shirt and went up to bat.  As fate would have it, Gates hit a shot
    into the gap and had to slide into second...after narrowly beating the
    tag, Gates got up and mustard and hot dog stains were all over his
    uniform!   Gates got fined as a result, those turned out to be a couple
    of expensive hot dogs...
    
    
    py
                            

    re: Stargell
    
    Pops had a great 1979 postseason,but until then he had some miserable
    postseason results,especially the 1971 Worls Series when he only had 1
    or 2 hits for that entire series.  The late great Roberto Clemente
    carried the Bucs that year with one of the great clutch performances.
    
    My choices  would be Thurman Munson or Reggie Jackson.

    Thinking back to The Big Red Machine days, Tony Perez comes to mind. 
    Guy always seemed to come up with the big hit, the biggest of which was
    his launching of a Bill Lee floater into the triangle in the '75
    series.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

I caint believe it, I just caint believe it,  40 replies without mentioning
someone all Red Sox fans MUST know as the greatest clutch hitter of all time...


	Soon to be ex-Yankee manager;  Bucky f'ing  Dent

					:-) :-)   Chap  

    Gates Brown always found a way to beat the Red Sox with a late-inning
    HR.  He absolutely *owned* Boston in the late sixties/early seventies.
    
    Mark.

    Good to see ya in here chap.. best clutch hitter,, gotta be
    
    joe pepitone
    
    dinz
    

    oh, how about  dean chance?
    

    Lance could really pop 'em when under pressure, couldn't he Steve?
    
    Mark.

    
    
                     Dan Schnieder    or   Tony Perez
    
                        Tough to choose.............
    
    

    
    	Who ever has been with Cher!
    
    B.A.

    Re:Conti, we are looking for hitters.. not weiners...
    
    REK

    The Brit votes for....
    Rusty  (as in Staub)
    and Carl  (as in Yastremski)

    daryll will be in heaven..
    

In the total picture, yes, the man was clutch, both at the plate 
and in the field. Remember him in left in '75?  Robbing Reggie 
over and over? Throwing that strike to Petrocelli at third? And, 
he hadn't played there all year...
 
Hitting that HR off a virtually unhittable Guidry in the '78 
playoff game.

But, those 2 pop-ups still stick in my mind.

In '67 he defined the word clutch.

Bucky defined the word fluke....

daryll

�But, those 2 pop-ups still stick in my mind.


Mine too, Daryll, but remember Yaz was only human...8^)

    rockin robin??
    

    How 'bout Dave (1-22) Winshield(tm) for all us Yankee-haters! :-)
    

>    How 'bout Dave (1-22) Winshield(tm) for all us Yankee-haters! :-)

Now that's funny...


Looking around the American League, I'd say:

	Mattingly,  Molitor,  Brett,  Trammel,  Fisk


Mattingly's the best of this bunch (IMO).


Joe

    Showing my age here but I recall a 3rd string catcher the Yankees
    had named Johnny Blanchard who used to trot up off the bench in
    Fenway or the Stadium and, like closckwork, deposit a Leo Kiely
    or Mike Forneles pitch downtown. Sort of a 50's Gates Brown.
    
    Then there was Boog Powell who used to get an erection anytime anyone
    mentioned Fenway Park. The Boogster put more dents in the Wall than
    there are craters on Noriega's face.
    
    Perhaps the biggest clutch "hit" of all time, in my mind, was Bill
    Mazeroski's zinger in '60 to beat the Yankees. Then again, Bobby
    Thompson's homer off Ralph Branca was the personification of the
    word "clutch".
    
    Strange that nobody mentioned Smokey Burgess. Ole Smokey was even
    heftier than Gates Brown and was listed as a catcher. But the guy
    made his living as a pinch hitter and was the standard for proficiency
    at that art for years.
    
    Finally I recall Jackie Jensen being a great clutch hitter for the
    Red Sox in the late 50's and early 60's. The poor guy quit the game,
    though, because his fear of flying was making him crazy.
    
    Rich
    

    
    >    Finally I recall Jackie Jensen being a great clutch hitter for the
  
    Was this the same guy they called "The double play kid"?
    
    Gee, Rich, you must be old.  I mean *really* old. 8^))))
    
    Dickster
    

                             Reggie in the Clutch
    
    
    Reggie Jackson never hit .300 but always seem to come up big
    in the Playoffs and World Series especially 3 hrs in 1 WS Game
    that titanic HR in the All Star game at Detroit, Along with Mike
    Schmidt in the Last 20 Years.
    
    
    

    Rich, you're right, Smokey Burgess was a great pinch-hitter during
    his time, maybe one of the best ever.  Wonder what his lifetime
    stats are (for pinch-hitting)?
    
    Lee

       I was at Forbes Field once when Smokey hit a TRIPLE!! He prob'ly
    didn't git too many of those, he was built like a bowling ball.
                                               Denny

    re. < Note 249.67 by MCIS1::DHAMEL "Ya gotta aggregate yer SLOF's, man" >

    >>    Finally I recall Jackie Jensen being a great clutch hitter for the
  
    > Was this the same guy they called "The double play kid"?
    
    > Gee, Rich, you must be old.  I mean *really* old. 8^))))
      
    Actually, Jensen took MVP honors in 1958 for a 3rd place Red Sox
    team. Jackie was not known for killing rallies by hitting into DPs,
    either.
    
    As far as me being old, I rather think that I became aware at an
    earlier age than most and retained all knowledge from that time
    on.
    
    Richster
    

While the conversation has evolved from "Greatest Clutch Hitter"
(which was obviously Munson) to "Great and Notable Pinch
Hitters", it's worthwhile to mention those two old goats the
Dodgers used to keep on their roster in the '70s  to terrorize
the opposition: Vic Davilillo and Manny Mota.  Between them,
they were well over 80 and still kept delivering.  I think one year,
possible '74, they both pinch hit at a greater than .400 clip,
and they delivered consecutive clutch pinch hits in a comeback
win in the playoffs (before they were the NLCS).

Dan

    Dan,
    
    I realize that Thurman wore the Yankee pinstripes and that, in and
    of itself, is reason for sainthood, but what makes you think Thurman
    Munson was a better clutch hitter during his career than, say, Jim
    Rice from 1975-1986? Did Munson have more RBI's per AB's than Rice?
    Is there a stat on Munson which shows his run production with men
    on base versus Rice?
    
    I know, I know, Rice benefitted from Park Effect. Then what about
    Al Kaline? Or Hank Aaron? This is not an obsurd comparison because
    you clearly stated: 
    
    > While the conversation has evolved from "Greatest Clutch Hitter"
    > (which was obviously Munson)
      
    Kindly enlighten us as to why Munson is such an obvious choice.
    
    BTW - If I was to pick a Yankee catcher for this award it would
    be Yogi Berra.
    
    Rich
    

    I can clearly remember one Johnny Bench giving Thurm some serious
    lessons on what it means to be a clutch hitter in the 76 World Series.
    
    

    Mentioning Thurmon Munson in the same breath as JB is heresy Cap, you
    oughta know that.  Not that Thurm was a bad player, but comparing him
    to one of the 2 or 3 all-time best catchers in baseball history is just, 
    well, unflattering.
    
    
    - MLB Chris

    I'm surprised that all the Yankees fans in this conference haven't
    mentioned one of the great clutch hitters in their history. Or
    maybe they don't know who he was???????

    Wasn't Richardson voted the World Series MVP one year? And didn't
    he set a record for most base hits in a Series?
    
    Richj
    

    >I can clearly remember one Johnny Bench giving Thurm some serious
    >lessons on what it means to be a clutch hitter in the 76 World Series.
    
    Clearly, your "clear" rememberances are not so clear.  Johnny Bench had
    a great series and hit .529, one of the best of all time.  
    
    Thurman hit .533 for the series.
    
    Dan

    Rich, my comments on Munson are mostly based on empiracle observation. 
    But let me assure you that there is statistical backing for them.  I
    don't think they still do it, but when Elias first published their
    yearly journal of statistics, they went back ten years to when they
    first started keeping track of these clutch hitting stats, things like
    2 outs, runner in scoring position stuff.  They put together lists of
    top ten "all time" for each category, for a year.  Munson's name was
    littered through these lists, and they even missed some of his best
    years, as I recall.  A comparison with the notoriously bad
    clutch-hitting Jim Rice (at least until about '83-'84) is an insult.
    
    From 1975-1977, Munson was the best catcher in baseball, bar none.  He
    never had Bench's throwing arm, but he was Bench's equal defensively,
    if not even better at blocking pitches.  And quite a few years, he had
    a better stick then Bench besides those I mentioned.  And that in a
    park which absolutely killed Munson's power.
    
    Dan

    Rich, is Dan's explanation clear enough for you?  :*) :*)
    
    It's Dans' gut feeling.  If you've ever seen Dan, you know that's
    quite a feeling.  But it doesn't provide any statistical data, which
    is disappointing to me.  Dan, you can do better.
    
    Lee

    OK, I decided to dig myself. Following is what I found along with
    my conclusions. Rankings are based on RBI's in each frame.
    
    1975

 PLAYER		R    H   2B   HR   RBI   BB   SO   SB   BA
=========================================================================
BENCH	        83  150  39   28   110   65  108   11   .283
MUNSON	        83  190  24   12   102   45   52    3   .315
SIMMONS         80  193  32   18   100   63   35    1   .332
CARTER	        58  136  20   17    68   72   83    5   .270
FISK            47   87  14   10    52   27   32    4   .331


1976

 PLAYER		R    H   2B   HR   RBI   BB   SO   SB   BA
=========================================================================
MUNSON		79  186  27   17   105   29   38   14   .302
SIMMONS         60  159  35    5    75   73   35    0   .291
BENCH		62  109  24   16    74   81   95   13   .234
FISK		76  124  17   17    58   56   71   12   .255
CARTER  	31   68   8    6    38   30   43    0   .219


1977

 PLAYER		R    H   2B   HR   RBI   BB   SO   SB   BA
=========================================================================
BENCH		67  136  34   31   109   58   95    2   .275
FISK	       106  169  26   26   102   75   85    7   .315
MUNSON		85  183  28   18   100   39   55    5   .308
SIMMONS     	82  164  25   21    95   79   37    2   .318
CARTER		86  148  29   31    84   58  103    5   .284


1975-1977

 PLAYER		R    H   2B   HR   RBI   BB   SO   SB   BA
=========================================================================
MUNSON	      247   559  79   47   307  113  145   22  .309
BENCH	      212   395  97   75   293  204  298   25  .265
SIMMONS       222   516  92   44   270  215  107    3  .314
FISK          229   380  57   53   212  158  188   23  .295
CARTER	      175   352  57   54   190  160  229   10  .263

CONCLUSION:
==========

Clearly Dan is correct when he says Munson was the most consistant catcher in 
Major League Baseball from 1975-1977. However, to say he was the best clutch
hitter of that era, among catchers, cannot be gleaned from these stats.
Johnny Bench drove in 14 less runs on 164 fewer hits. Ted Simmons is a vastly
underated catcher of that time period. 1976 seemed to be an off year for
all of these guys except Munson. Munson played OF or batted DH more than
Fisk, Bench or Simmons. Carter was platooning with Barry Foote and was
not the regular Montreal catcher until 1977.

Based on what I've seen here I will agree that Munson was the most consitant
catcher in baseball during this time period. However, from glancing at
my baseball encyclopedia a case can be made for Schmidt, Rice, Lynn,
Chambliss, Perez and others.

Rich

    Boy, they don't make catchers like *that* anymore.
    
    Mark.

    Good data Rich.  Bench's off-year in '76 definitely skews his
    statistics downward.  Interesting how much of a turnaround he
    engineered during the WS though!  (Cain't call that clutch though,
    cause that would reward regular-season underachieving.)
    
    The problem with your "most consistent" equation is that it doesn't
    include Defense.  Defensively JB was the yardstick by which the modern
    catcher is compared, but, as Dan hypothesizes, perhaps Thurm was his 
    equal during this 3-year span.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Dan,
    
    I was under the impression that Bench hit in the .540's for that
    series.  Of course none of Munson's hits were clutch as the overmatched
    Yanks were easily swept in four.  Just because someone(Munson) gets alot
    of girly-mon, sissy singles and has a high average, does not merit
    the title of clutch hitter.  Bench came up big in every important
    bat of that series and once again showed Thurmie baby, what it is
    meant by clutch hitting.....
    
    Anyway in Rich's stats, I'd like to see games played because Bench
    was injured during a few of those years.....
    
    Thurman was never in Bench's league.  Bench will be a first ballot
    hall of famer while Thurman will never garnish enough votes to make
    and he doesn't deserve to make.  A few very good years does not
    merit hall of fame support.
    
    Cap
    
    P.S  He was never in Bench's league defensively, Bench redefined(for
    better or worse can be argued) the position of catcher and is regarded
    by baseball experts(one of Onan Dan's favorite ploys)as the greatest
    catcher ever.  The baseball experts(those who vote for the hall)
    obviously don't feel the same about Thurman.
    
    
    

short int  clutch_hitting = SPORTS$K_WHATEVER_YA_WANT_IT_TO_BE;



That should do it.

C ya


'Saw

    You know college hoop season is a long way off when:
    
    
    Cap and ACC Chris join forces against Dan "The Man" Schneider in a
    trivial and non-sensical "Who's Better: Thurmon Munson or Johnny Bench"
    debate.  October 15th simply CANNOT come fast enough for me!
    
    To sum things up, Dan's right, this discussion was on "clutchness", not
    "greatness", despite 1Way's correct logical definition of how things
    typically go in SPORTS.  Bench is obviously "great".  (Munson's only "less
    filling".)  Both were excellent in the clutch, what with Johnnies
    storied '76 World Series and incredibly big-time homer in the '71
    playoffs against Pittsburgh.  Munson apparently has rated highly in
    various statistical studies that attempt to define "clutchness".
    
    Bottom line is they were both excellent and clutch.  Tragically 
    Thurmon won't be there when he's inducted into the Hall.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    
    Mickey Rivers...N.Y. Yankees. Had one of the best on-base percentages
    in the majors in his days!
    

    Yea, that Mickey Rivers:  The only man in baseball history who could
    run the ball in from the outfield faster than he could throw it in.
    
    SI did a piece on "Mic the Quick" a couple months ago.  He resurfaced 
    in the old-timers league in Florida.  The article painted as quite the
    interested character.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Even as a Red Sox fan, you had to like Rivers.  He had a bit of Ralph
    Kiner in him with some of his quotes.  Last I knew, his son was playing
    in the Red Sox organization, fwiw.
    
    					Steve

    Ain't no use worring bout things you got no control over, cuz if
    you ain't got no control, ain't no use worrying.  A Mickey Rivers'
    line.
    
    Others:  Upon Mick the Quick playing left field for the first time:
    
    "I felt all alone out there.  I felt like I was on an island.  I
    felt like Gilligan..."
    
    A classic...
    
    JD

    
       Another Mickey Rivers' quote I heard was, "What was the name
    of that dog that starred on Rin Tin Tin?"
    
    Bull~
    

    	My favorite Rivers line was when he was responding to a reporter
    that just told him that Reggie Jackson claimed to have an I.Q. of
    160.  Mick just said "out of what, a thousand?"  
    
    				/Don

    Another Rivers classic on Jackson :
    
    Reggie gets on the bus in the middle of a slump and Rivers says :
    
    "Reginald Martinez Jackson - you have a White first name, a Mexican
    middle name, and a Black last name. You're so *&^% mixed up, no
    wonder you can't hit !"
    
    I thought I'd die ....

    Nobody could twirl the bat in the batters' box like ole Mick.
    
    Rich
    

    tha bezt cluutch hidder i efer new wus big daddy don garlitz.
    
    Bouy, wen hee wus rasing, hee wus kwicker off uf tha cluutch thane
    anibodee.
    
    mu
    

Hell, after this past weekend, I think I'd nominate Dewey Evans.
On Saturday and Sunday he was a virtual one man gang....

'Saw

    
    Re: Dewey Evans
    
    Not bad for an old man!  Homer ties the game in the eighth on Saturday,
    his two-run homer dramatically wins in the 10th. O's lose the 1-K-away
    game.  Sunday a homer in the 7th of a scoreless game, a sac-fly
    for the insurance run later.
    
    The Designated Hitter:  What a concept!!!  What an exciting improvement
    to the grand ol' game!!!
    
    Dickster
    

    
    Baerga, Cleveland Indians.......over .500 pinch hitter.
    
    	The Chief
    

    i would lie dollars to donuts that i know who has the hidden account..
    
    i know that node