Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    
    Good win on Saturday fer the Irish BBall team. 
    ND 71  Dayton 66
    
    6-5
    
    Nexted game
    1/12 at Stanford
    
    MikeL
    

     
    ND baseball schedule ( pre-ranked #15 in the country)
    
    3/8    at Arizona St.
    3/9    at Arizona
    3/10   at Arizona
    3/12   at Wichita St.
    3/13   at Wichita St.
    3/14   at Wichita
    3/19   at Kentucky
    3/20   at Kentucky (2)
    3/21   at Kentucky
    3/27   at Xavier (O) (2)
    3/28   at Xavier (O) (2)
    3/31   at Indiana
    4/3    at Butler
    4/4    at Butler (2)
    4/6    ILLINOIS
    4/7    at Purdue
    4/9    LASALLE
    4/10   LASALLE (2)
    4/11   LASALLE
    4/12   CLEVELAND ST.
    4/14   at Illinois
    4/17   at Duquesne (2)
    4/18   at Duquesne (2)
    4/20   TOLEDO
    4/21   PURDUE
    4/24   at Evansville (2)
    4/25   at Evansville (2)
    4/27   VALPARAISO    (2)
    4/28   INDIANA ST.
    4/29   INDIANA
    5/1    DETROIT  (2)
    5/2    DETROIT  (2)      
    5/10   at Indiana St.
    5/11   ILLINOIS-CHICAGO
    5/12   at Northwestern
    5/13   at Cleveland St. (2)
    5/14   DAYTON  (2)
    5/17   at Central Michigan
    
    5/19-5/22  MCC Conference tournament at South Bend
    
    
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

    It will be tough to start off 0-3 for the Iwish.

>    3/8    at Arizona St.
>    3/9    at Arizona
>    3/10   at Arizona
 
     Are these all against ASU or are 2 against Arizona ?  I don't recall
     the Irish doing this before.

>    4/3    at Butler
>    4/4    at Butler (2)
>    5/14   DAYTON  (2)

     Any reason why the Irish only play 3 games against conference foe Butler
     and 2 agaisnt conference foe Dayton ?

     BTW, thanks for the schedule.

     Rick Rollins

    Rick,
    ND does start out with ASU for one game and Arizona for two.
    
    I messed up on the Butler, Dayton schedule. (small dang print!)
    
    Should read
    
    4/3 at Butler (2)
    4/4 at Butler (2)
    
    5/14 DAYTON (2)
    5/15 DAYTON (2)
    
    56 total games, 34 on road including the first 19.
    
    Home games played at either Kline Field ( on campus) or at
    Covaleski Field ( in South Bend)
    
    MCC tournament held at Covaleski Field in South Bend.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Pleasant result
    
    ND 67  Stanford 61
    
    7-5
    
    Nexted game
    1/16 at *ouch* Michigan
    
    MikeL
    

Mike,

No, the eyes can go first...take it from me.  

Get joself some glasses, man 8^)


'Saw

    
    bBall results
    
    Michigan 70  ND 55
    Butler   70  ND 56
    
    7-7
    
    Next game at home vs. LaSalle on Saturday, 1/23
    
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Anyone get the result of last Saturday's ND-LaSalle matchup??
    
    Next game for Irish; Wed. nite, 1/27 at Missouri
    
    Early news out of South Bend is that this year's football recruiting
    is only fair at best.  Lack a_LB's QB's and kicker so far.
    Word out of Aurora. Colo.is that PK Scott Bentley, originally thought
    to be in ND's backpocket, cancelled a press confrernce yesterday and
    is expected to announce his intentions by the end of the week.
    Rumor mill has it that Florida St and Colorado have entered the
    picture.
    
    sigh...... po' po' Irish. Could be a long coupla years.
    
    
    MikeL
    
    
    P.S. At least I got to match the special on Knute Rockne last night.
    Inspiring!!
    
    

    -1,
    Tommy I've heard mucho stories on the origin of the "Fighting Irish"
    moniker. The one I've heard most is the Civil War connection.
    Who knows really?
    
    MikeL
    

>    Tommy I've heard mucho stories on the origin of the "Fighting Irish"
>    moniker. The one I've heard most is the Civil War connection.
>    Who knows really?
    
There was also a "Fightin' Irish" unit in the Marine Corps I believe.

I've been reading a series called "The Corps", by W.E.B. Griffin, and
I recall seeing the unit mentioned in one of the first two volumes.  I
will go back and check and see if I can find the reference and expand
upon it in here.

If that is the case, it might lend some credence to MikeL's version,
as opposed to Tommy's "Irish Night Out" version....


8^)    

>    Word out of Aurora. Colo.is that PK Scott Bentley, originally thought
>    to be in ND's backpocket, cancelled a press confrernce yesterday and
>    is expected to announce his intentions by the end of the week.
>    Rumor mill has it that Florida St and Colorado have entered the
>    picture.
    
FSU and CU have been in the picture all along, and those 2 along with ND are
his 3 finalists.  He visited FSU a couple week ago, and Holtz was supposed to
visit his home this past weekend.  He's regarded as one of the best (if not the
best) kicking prospects coming out of high school.    

>    P.S. At least I got to match the special on Knute Rockne last night.
>    Inspiring!!
  
Yea, my wife too.  Here evening stopped due to that.


Joe    

    
    > P.S. At least I got to match the special on Knute Rockne last night.
    > Inspiring!!
    
    Good show on The American Experience.  It definitively revealed 
    Rockne for what he was-- a shyster on the order of Lou Holtz!  ;-)
    
    I'd seen those newsreels before on some similar Rockne program re-run
    on A&E.  Rockne was funny as hail!  Something like this: "Well, you
    see, if they outlaw the Notre Dame shift we'll just have to play it
    like everyone else, and go out and get the half-witted boy with the 
    bovine expression, pig-knuckled hands and hamhock forearms... yeah, 
    we'll play that game..."
    
    glenn
          
    

    
    Lasted night's action
    
    Missouri 73  ND 57
    
    8-8
    
    Nexted game at UCLA on Supah Bowl Sunday!
    Mebbe national TV??
    
    MikeL
    

They are not on CBS. Maybe ABC or ESPN?

The Crazy Met

    
    I have no idea myself. ND will bring in some market share ( at least
    till halftime!), and hey, we need the exposure for recruiting. Wait
    till some athaletes see what MacLeod has done with a squad a
    ragamuffins. Hell 8-8 for as team that has to play the Ross twins
    is excellent.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    A few back about that Rockne special. When I saw the clips of Rockne,
    who was quite the showman and BSer, and then I saw Holtz, ah knew
    right away who influenced ol' Lou.
    
    BTW, ironically two of the ex-NDers who played for Rockne and
    were interviewed for this special, Jack Elder and Moose Krausse,
    passed away within days of each other this past fall.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Yesterday's result
    UCLA 68  ND 65
    
    8-9
    
    Next game Tuesday 2/2 at home vs St Bon(it's not a life it's)aventure.
    
    MikeL
    

    Ack!
    
    St Bonaventure 64  ND 61
    8-10
    
    Next game Saturday, 2/6 at home vs. Duke
    
    MikeL
    

Next game is a real breather for ND :-)

The Crazy Met

    AT Notre Dame, too.  The Bonnies are the same team that was down
    22 at the half to UMass at home on Sunday.
    
    NAZZ

    Well NAZZ,
    
    It was stated that this team would be lucky to git 10 wins this year.
    8 wins and holding........ Thanks Digger, you really put the effort
    in recruiting those last couple didn't you.  Too much chit chat with
    Ol' Georgie Bush, huh?  Hope he gits ya a job on his son's oil rig
    off that island near Kuwait.
    
    MikeL
    

    	That's the best Saint Bonaventure team ND's ever faced!

    Dat's right Slash,
    
    Lovely to see that po' Macleod got's the Ross brothers to lean
    on opposing centers to waste 10 fouls. Trouble is usually they're
    too slow to reach someone to foul. I think between 'em the Ross
    twins got 9 fouls lasted night. Joe got 7 and Jim 2. Jest like
    their play, mostly offensive.
    
    MikeL
    

    Dookies 67  ND 50
    8-11
    
    Next game tonight at Dayton
    
    MikeL
    

    Should be an easy win tonight Mike.  The Flyers are currently 3-17! 
    The locals are starting to ask for O'Brien's head!  Dayton has one very
    good player in Center Chip Hare.  Hare's a big strong kid who can step
    out and hit the three also.  Too bad UD hasn't recruited anybody to go
    with him.
    
     - Bob

    Love dat P name Bob,
    I'll be pushin' up daisies afore it reads BASKETBALL Mecca!!
    
    MikeL
    

    
    In BBall action,
    ND 79   Dayton 69
    
    9-11
    
    Next game at home vs. Kentucky on Saturday 2/13.
    
    MikeL
    

    ND maished and boined down the stretch.
    
    College BBall's richest BBall program, ah, the players dat is, Kaintuck
    U., done plowed the Irish down in the second half, 80somefin to 60??
    Whatever, didn't see the game.  Irish Fwd Mont Williams, I hear, was a
    house_a_fire in thefirst half, but the Cats made him look like his
    namesake the talk show host in the second half.
    Ouch. 9-12
    
    Think Rick Pitino needs some spray paint to eben out his daidducktail?
    And what's this rumor I hear that Ky center SourMashboin wants to come
    back to ol' CatU for one more year........ somethin' about not wantin'
    to take a pay cut?   8^)'s.
    
    
    Next Irish game, Wed. 2/17 at home vs. Marquette
    
    MikeL
    

    Just what y'all were waiting for;
    
    The ND recruiting story!
    
    To be continued..........
    

    Irish sink vs Marquette, 69 -61
    
    9-13.
    
    Next game at home on Saturday vs DePaul
    
    MikeL
    

Mike -
You see Rick Pitino's comments about Irish hoops?

Said the Irish need to join a conference and to stop doin the 
killer schedule...

JD

    Didn't see that Sarge,
    
    And I happen to think he is right. AD Rosenthal ( a_ex ND BBall star
    hisself) is holding out on this. He thinks ND will lose its national
    attraction if it joins a conference and won't be able to recruit
    nationally. BS, the BBall team can still schedule the Dukes, UNC's
    IU , Kaintuck, DePaul, UCLA whatever but just space 'em out. 
    I'm not sure what conference thewy could join but I don't think they
    want the MCC ( the one with Dayton, Loyola-Chi, Butler Xavier, etc)
    Be interesting to see which conference they would be interested in
    joining. IMO, they will come to the conclusion that only the football
    team can enjoy a_independent status. The BBall program will wither
    if they try to keep their independednt status.
    
    And the killer schedule was arram=nged originally by Mssrs. Phelps
    and Corrigan. Rosenthal kept it up, but aqh believes MacLeod gave
    him a_earful.
    
    We'll see.
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

    Assuming he's not out on the road recruiting, Jimmy Black visits his
    alma mater tonight as Notre Dame "invades" Chapel Hill.
    
    Don't count on a repeat of last years NotreDame > UNC game in NewYawk
    though.  The "Fighting" Irish enter this game a [gulp!] 28 point
    'dog.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Yup,
    The 9-13 Irish, having just lost to DePaul 69-61, invade, ( that's a
    nice PC word there Chris) UNC whar they'll be served up like
    Thanksgiving turkey. Ouch!
    
    MikeL
    

    ... prompting UNC fans to sing....
    
    Jimmy, Jimmy...
    Oh Jimmy Black, when are ya comin' back?
    

    As in Hee haw?  I know it's NC and Mayberry RFD country and all, but Haw??

    Hmmmm,
    Jimmy Black won't be a goin back wif his haid held high after
    Tuesday's game. Whuzzit 84-57 whatever.
    
    Tarpaulined by the Tarheels.  9-14.  Think they play Loiusville next.
    
    Latah,
    MikeL
    

    Well the Irish basketball season is mercifullycoming to an end.
    Irish lost Wed night at home agin Valparaiso by a bunch.
    Now I don't know how they fared vs. Duquesne on 2/25 so their
    record is either 10-16 or 9-17. Anyone have the Irish 2/25 vs.
    Duquesne result?  Anyway they close the looooong season on Sunday,
    3/7 at Louisville.
    
    For hoefully brighter news, the #15 Irish baseball team open their '93
    campaign wif a bunch of tough games on the road.  They open on Monday
    3/8 vs. top ten ASU for one game before traveling south to Tucson to
    play anudder Top Ten Arizona squad fer two on 3/9 and 3/10. Need to get
    the skinny on these games from Brews or MikeyH!!  Then it's off to
    perennial powerhouse Wichita St fer three nexted weekend.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Football recruiting.  ND did quite well in landing a top 5 recruiting
    class according to the analysts.  Seems they got the athletes they
    needed, now let's see how the pan out in years to come. 
    
    The Irish filled some major needs in quarterback, tailback, linebacker,
    and punter. Not as high on the priority list but still important were
    fullback and defensive backs that the Irish landed.  
    
    Recruit list: (22)
    
    Name                 Position        Hometown                Ht     Wt.
    
    Bert Berry           Linebacker      Humble, Texas           6'4"   230
    
    Cikai Champion       Wide Receiver   Tyler, Texas            5'11"  170
    
    Chris Clevenger      Defensive Line  Wichita, Kansas         6'7"   255
    
    Lyron Cobbins        Linebacker      Kansas City, Missouri   6'1"   225
    
    Melvin Dansby        Linebacker      Birmingham, Alabama     6'4"   250
    
    Mike Doughty         Offensive Line  Lakeville, Minnesota    6'7"   260
    
    Marc Edwards         Fullback        Cincinnati, Ohio        6'1"   225
    
    Robert Farmer        Tailback        Bolingbrook, Illinois   6'1"   215
    
    Brian Ford           Punter          Indianapolis, Indiana   6'4"   190
    
    Ron Hardin           Fullback        Louisville, Kentucky    6'2"   225
    
    Rick Kaczenski       Tight End       Erie, Pennsylvania      6'5"   240
    
    Jeff Kilburg         Defensive Line  Park Ridge, Illinois    6'4"   250
    
    Randy Kinder         Tailback        East Lansing, Michigan  6'1"   205
    
    Tom Krug             Quarterback     Los Gatos, California   6'5"   215
    
    Chris Kurpekis       Offensive Line  Pittsburgh, Pa.         6'7"   295
    
    Emmett Mosley        Tailback/Flanker Denver, Colorado       5'9"   170
    
    Ron Powlus           Quarterback     Berwick, Pennsylvania   6'3"   210
    
    Brian Perry          Defensive Back  Avon Park, Florida      6'0"   205
    
    Darnell Smith        Linebacker      Mequon, Wisconsin       6'5"   240
    
    Sim Stokes           Defensive Back  Providence, RI          6'2"   200
    
    Anthony Swiney       Defensive Back  Little Rock, Arkansas   5'11"  180
    
    Kinnon Tatum         Defensive Back  Fayetteville, NC        6'0"   185
    
    
    
    MikeL (no recruit)
                           
    

    Any of you Sunshine Boys got lasted night's ASU-ND baseball tilt??
    
    Nexted games
    
    3/9 and 3/10  at Arizona
    
    MikeL
    

    I had more important things to do (like fix my car), but a whopping 2K
    people showed up according to today's State Press.  ASU must be really
    slumping.  Unranked Cal took 2 of 3 from them this weekend up in the Bay
    and ND beat them 11-4 last night.

    Don't be embarrassed Mike,
    Tain't like ND's chopped liver. They's in the Top 20 as well as ASU.
    Remember, it's a looooong year.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    ASU is just coming back to reality.  They were ranked prety low to
    start the season, and started off hot.  Don't think they've got the
    pitching this year (or last, for that matter).
    
    brews

	The Irish are currently at 2-3 on the baseball season after
	splitting a two-game series in Wichita this past weekend.
	They are currently ranked 16th by Baseball America.  The next
	series is 4 games against Kentucky, beginning Friday at Shively
	Field in Lexington.

    Thanks Rich,
    So they musta dropped a pair to Arizona after beating ASU.
    Anyone know how they fared agin Ol' Kaintuck?
    
    MikeL
    
    Hot rumor around the Golden Dome is that the Irish Bball team is
    entering severe negotiations about entering that bastion of BBall
    conferencedom.......The BigLeast!!! Guess I'll have to twirl ala Ack
    and change my tune about the BigEast and conferencedom if true...
    yea right.
    
    

    Hey how bout them Irish, huh??
    
    Who says we're a football factory. Look at them baseball, lacrosse,
    men's and women's tennis teams in the NCAA's. Does my heart good.
    
    And remember, academics in numero uno!
    
    MikeL
    

>    Hey how bout them Irish, huh??
>    
>    Who says we're a football factory. Look at them baseball, lacrosse,
>    men's and women's tennis teams in the NCAA's. Does my heart good.

That's okay, though.  The real hatred for ND centers around the almighty
football team.  :^)
    
>    And remember, academics in numero uno!
    
I'm sure Lou wouldn't have it any other way!


Joe    

    The baseball team?
    
    Yea, they play in a weak conf (MCC) and they started their season off
    at Arizona, ASU, Wichita St, where I believe they were 2-4 I believe.
    Also think they split with Kentucky before starting up their MCC
    schedule. The lack of comp will probably hurt in the NCAA's but there
    isn't much they can do to find a better conference at this point.
    I believe Evansville is in their conference and ended up with 40
    wins but were excluded. Ah, the perils of living north of the Mason-
    Dixon line!
    
    Miami of Fla was supposed to visit South Bend for a three game series
    in April, but they dropped the Irish this year. Gee, ND went to Coral
    Gables last year (during the regular season and playoffs) and took
    their licks. Maybe the Canes don't like the blustery April weather in
    Indiana.
    
    
    Go Irish!
    
    MikeL
    
    

    
    MikeL, I saw where the ND baseball team (#4 seed) took out NCAA big boy
    Miss. St. (#3 seed, #13 in the country) yesterday, 15-1.  Offense is 
    supposed to be their forte.  Maybe they are for real...
    
    glenn
    

    Yabbut glenn,
    This being double elim, Miss St could come back to haunt 'em.
    ND's got some guns, and their pitching ain't that bad, we'll see.
    They play Florida St today. 
    
    Lasted year, they was one win away from the trip to the World Series.
    They lost to the Canes in the regional final.
    
    MikeL
    

    Let's not forget to mention that ND was eliminated in their regional
    final...
    
    Joe

    Gee Joe,
    I thought it was only the football team you hated!
    
    Yup, Long Beach St dusted off the Irish 13-3 after ND had dumped
    Florida St to reach the regional final. 
    Back to the drawing and recruiting board.
    
    MikeL
    

>    Gee Joe,
>    I thought it was only the football team you hated!
    
True, but a loss by one of the "other" ND sports teams never hurts either,
especially in the postseason.

:^)
Joe   

another words like "A bad day of fishing beats a good day at the office"
any loss by ND means is a good day, if it's the football team it's a great
day....

mike

    
    As I told MikeL on the phone, a regional final loss for ND baseball is
    a_excellent loss indeed.  You're talking about a #4 seed doing their
    part in knocking out both Mississippi St. and Florida St. before 
    succumbing to the #1 seed in powerhouse Long Beach St.  An early
    extra-inning loss to Fla. St. (later avenged) just made it too tough,
    having to battle through the loser's bracket and then beat the champ
    twice.
    
    ND baseball is not ND football; they can hold their heads up over this
    one...
    
    glenn
      

How 'bout the ND Golf Team.

I hear they have this little statue, called Hole-In-One Jesus, that they
drive around on a golf cart, to whatever hole is currently being
played......


'Saw

    HAHAHA 'Saw,
    
    Actually that little statue fits in well with other ND campus icons..
    Like Touchdown Jesus mural on the library. "We're #1" Moses in front
    of the library, "Give me five" Mary in the main quad, and "Fair Catch"
    Corbin ( ND saintly priest) down by the lake.
    
    We got all the bases covered.
    
    MikeL
    

Oh, I knew about Touchdown Jesus, but I didn't know about High 5 Mary.  
That's too funny.


'Saw

    Well, well, well
    
    Under the "BFD" category, and coming this summer...
    
    A book penned by a coupla SI creeps,
    "Under the tarnished Golden Dome, How Notre Dame Sold its Soul
     to Climb back up the Polls".
    BLAMing Holtz of course.
    
    Must need some money over there at SI.
    
    And no, I won't do any damage control.
    
    MikeL
    
    

>  And no, I won't do any damage control.

Wow! There is a first for everything.

The Crazy Met

MikeL - the objective ND defender, hah 

The Crazy Met

    
    Sounds like the damage control has already started.  Did some ND alum
    who works at SI already leak the article to some ND shills on the
    internet or sumfin?
    
    brews

    
    Yabbut rumor control has it that the ND BoD or whatever they're called
    is considering a motion to "de-emphasise" the secular nature of the
    school (Catholic) and do away with religious classes!
    
    hth
    
    I remain,
    an occasional rumor'r!
    Kev
    

    Nope brews,
    
    The authors contacted ex-ND coaches and players ( especially those who
    transferred to other schools) for interviews(like Dan Devine). They
    told the interviewees that the subject was ND football and Lou Holtz
    Fromj what I've read in a ND publication (I'll post some of the
    comments, pro and con), the questions leaned towards any instances
    of improprieties, cover-ups, etc. You know, stuff that sells.
    
    The authors contacted the university admin and sports department,
    not for interviews but for comments on some of their findings.
    Well, when the authors were pressed about the title and subject,
    "Ah, it's called Under the Tarnished Golden Dome, Mr. Rosenthal",
    well the reaction from ND was NC, knock yourself out.
    
    But I won't obfuscate, I'll just post some background and comments
    when I can, y'all be the judge.
    
    Ciao,
    MikeL
    
    

    -1,
    Never claimed I did. Love to hear the other side. I just get tired of
    it, but it comes with the territory.
    
    I's ready,
    MikeL
    

  >   On the positive side, according to a Boston Globe article the
  >   other day, ND ranks #2 behind Duke in the percentage of black
  >   football players who graduate.
    
    Only problem with the study is that, pertaining to this book on the 
    Holtz era, all the data was compiled for Gerry Faust's recruiting 
    classes and most of his players (entering freshmen 1983-85).  The 
    NCAA in its snail-like reform movements is really paranoid about
    releasing graduation information that reflects on current coaches 
    and current modes of operation.  And the coaches are the reason why...
    
    glenn
    

    glenn,
    I still think the the graduation rates for ALL football players during
    the Holtz era is quite high. Don't know for sure.
    
    Tommy,
    What I think is much more important than the stat on black football
    players grad rate is the fact that ND is using a good % of its
    NBC money to specifically fund more non-athletic minority scholarships,
    undergrad and grad.
    
    
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

Man that Touchdown Jesus guy gets just about everything he wants. Can't
believe I've ever seen a network stick their tails betwen their butts and
change policies but the new lineup for NBC Notre Dame games has to be the
funniest Sports story of the summer so far...

For those that missed due to the possible bias for or bias against ND, NBC will
rotate 3 announcing teams for this year's telecasts...

Of course two days later Lou issued a statement that he never pays attention
to the telecast and has absolutely nothing to do with the decision....

mike

 I thought I stated the issue pretty clearly, but considering you're from ND 
 I'll explain it so you can understand it. Nat a ISFH!!

 3 seperate NBC announcing crews will work 2 games apiece for NBC's coverage
 of ND's game. NBC claims that this is so that no announcing team will form a
 bias for or a bias against ND. I can't ever recall a National Network changing
 their broadcaster in this kind of a format for either one of those reasons.
 
 Now consider the first few years when we had Enberg and Walsh gushing profusely
 like a runaway aorta about ND and nothing is done about the obvious pro-bias.
 Then we have Dockery question Holtz's strategies and Collingsworth do the same
 and now we have the above rotation. Strange wouldn't you say?

 Then two days after I read this, I read that Holtz claims he has absolutely
 nothing to do with it and he nevers watches the televised games during post
 game. For a man who shilled his way on to the Johnny Carson show and sold
 his soul to the devil to expects me to believe this? BolderDash!!!!!!!

 mike

             
    Lou didn't have to watch the broadcast tapes.  John Dockery ticked him
    off live and in person on more than one occasion!  Wasn't one of the
    questions that set Lou off about running up the score on hapless BC?  
    I don't remember, at two beers per touchdown against my memory of that
    game is fuzzy... ;-)  Then there was the clock management issue at the
    end of the Michigan game.  Dockery wasn't pulling any punches last
    season...
    
    glenn
    

    Thanks for .85 there Mikey. That's the embellishment I was looking for,
    you big dummy!! 8^)
    
    Mucho ado about nada. I dunno, ND doesn't need to worry about that
    merde, must be oversensitive alums...
    I actually preferred Collinsworth and Dockery. Gimme the
    non-milquetoast version anyday.
    
    MikeL
     
     

 Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!

	Cheer, cheer for Old Notre Dame
	Wake up the echoes cheering her name!
	Send the volley cheer on high,
	Shake down the thunder from the sky.
	What though the odds be great or small
	Old Notre Dame will win over all
	While her loyal sons go marching onward to victory!

    re: .89
    
    barf bag time.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

 Don't encourage him TCM....

 ;^)

 I caught you're shot at me ML over in the Giantsfile and I still say
 more kids get overrated at ND than anywhere else. For that list of
 50 I could probably 50 guys that didn't deserve to get drafted but
 did cause of thier ND heritage. I just don't have the stats books
 or the time....maybe I could find the time but then I'd be out
 sick for a week from reading all that Golden helmet dribble.....

 mike

MikeC, did Rocket Roger go to ND, or just the other Rocket?  :*)

    
> MikeC, did Rocket Roger go to ND, or just the other Rocket?  :*)
    
    No, but I think his idol Yaz did, for about 15 minutes... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
>>    No, but I think his idol Yaz did, for about 15 minutes... ;-)
    
  
 Close but actually it was Gary Geiger..... ;^)    

    My shot at you in the jints file was well deserved. You sallied forth
    with an off the wall unsubstantiated generalization that was pure bs,
    even if it's your right to do so. As far as making you sick, ya mean
    I succeeded?? 8^).  And of course ND has had its share of kids who
    didn't pan put in the pros. Big deal, every school has. Plus, we
    ain't no football factory!
    
    Yup, Yaz did go to ND, into his soph year (don't know if he completed
    his 2nd year tho). Saw a picture of him with the Golden Dome in the
    background. 
    
    But you'll have a chance to crow, mikey. ND will be fortunate to finish
    in the Top Ten this year and they're graduating probably 13 starters
    in May of '94. Maybe even your darlins from USC might be able to
    squeeze in a victory... So woe is us in '94!
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

 �   But you'll have a chance to crow, mikey. ND will be fortunate to finish
 �   in the Top Ten this year and they're graduating probably 13 starters
 �   in May of '94. Maybe even your darlins from USC might be able to
  
MikeyL - I see you've been to Lou's Double-Reverse Sand Bagging mini camp in
	 South Bend this summer...

    Nope,
    No camp, Bobby. Jest a VHS tape a Lou with background ND music.
    
    Better than relaxation tapes.
    
    MikeL
    

    Sorry,
    No sandbaggin', just a_honest appraisal of our fortunes. ND will
    re-load of course!! But losing 13 outta 22...hmmmmm. don't know what's
    rreplacing them. So's I gots to start with low expectations and build
    up. But enuf of that, bring on '93 where we have to deal with the loss
    of the whole backfield, TE, linebackers, A-A CB, safety... Woe is
    us in '93..
    
    And Holtz can recruit and coach. Believe it. Ask his peers. Sure
    he's had his off-days ( Stanford last year, Tennessee in 91).
    But he sure had dang good days. Miami and USC in 88, Michigan in 89
    and 90. Stanford in 91, Florida in da Sugar, A&M lasted year, CU the
    first time in the Orange Bowl), Miami in 90. You get the picture.
    
    MikeL
    

    And may I ask you to provide examples of coaches who "upset" teams
    of clearly superior personnel??  Don't think so. But I'll give you
    one... Bill Walsh's Stanford team tyotally dominated a superior,
    on paper, ND team last year. ND walked all over the Cardinal in the
    first hal, but froze up in the second, advantage Walsh.
    
    Can't think of any others. And no, I never said ND's talent waned
    in comparison to other teams over the Holtz years. The exception
    is '86 and '87, when Holtz inherited the Faustian crossword puzzle.
    Brown and Rocket pulling them outta the fire?? Seems like utilizing
    and coaching your personnel to the fullest. Special teams is part
    of the game, and good coaching along with talent strengthens that
    aspect. I saw Rocket and Tim get some good blocking as well as using
    their natural talent in creating scoring opportunities.
    Not trying to convince you cuz that's impossible, but trust me, Lou is
    an excellent coach.
    
    MikeL
    

>    And may I ask you to provide examples of coaches who "upset" teams
>    of clearly superior personnel??
    
    Joe Paterno over ND, 1990 and 1991?  ;-)
    
    Seriously, Lou Holtz, like Joe Paterno, is a very good game coach at 
    the college level.  Unfortunately, a guy like Bill Walsh was a genius 
    in the professional ranks.  No contest in that kind of a comparison.
    But we still don't have to like Holtz' sandbagging!
    
    I'd say losing about half your starters in a given year is average, for
    all programs.  You figure that most players start in only their junior 
    and senior years, if not just their senior year.  What you need to be
    worried about more so than new seniors and juniors taking over (because
    there's no reason to believe that they'll be any worse than the crop
    they just replaced was at the same age) is an unusual number of starting
    sophomores and freshmen.  That might cost you a season, but of course
    you'll be ahead of the game in following seasons.  Talent is what counts. 
    Especially because you've only got 2-3 years to work with a kid,
    experience is overrated in the college game.  So fear not for ND,
    MikeL!
    
    glenn
    
    

Cheer, cheer for Old Notre Dame
Wake up the echoes cheering her name!
Send the volley cheer on high,
Shake down the thunder from the sky.
What though the odds be great or small
Old Notre Dame will win over all
While her loyal sons go marching onward to victory!

No MikeL. you didn't make me sick, what would make me sick would be tearing
through old ND records to prove my point about the players who busted as
opposed to those who shined....

Agree all schools have their share of those who bust, but when ND's involved
all shots must be fired....

with nine straight losses these little victories are all I got....

;^(

    Gotta love that 'Sawmain, that Danny Boy playin', Irish rootin',
    poem creatin', stock car supportin' Scotsman!
    
    Aw c'mon glenn, stop being so logical, yer spoilin' da fun! 8^)
    
    And hold on there a sec, I was at both 90 and 91 Penn St games
    ( thanks fer the reminder), and I'll grant you 90, but not '91
    sir. We both were in attendance and we *know* the Lions were as
    talented as the Irish. And we both know who used
    their talent that day!
    
    MikeL
    

>         <<< Note 35.109 by CTHQ::LEARY "McSorley,McFilthy,McNasty" >>>
>                   -< .107. mikey, dat's TEN straight sir! >-

    

New book out:

	Notre Dame's Greatest Coaches
	Rockne, Leary, Parseghian, Holtz

Written by former Irish player, coach and AD, Moose Krause.

TTom

oops

�New book out:

�       Notre Dame's Greatest Coaches
�       Rockne, Leary, Parseghian, Holtz

�Written by former Irish player, coach and AD, Moose Krause.

Look MikeyL - you're famous!  I'll have to get you to sign a copy for me...

=Bob=
     

Kev, take out "think" from your statement and I completely agree.

The Crazy Met

                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
>>Note 35.111                     NOTRE DAME SPORTS                     111 of 111
>>HBAHBA::HAAS "Lower Melvin"                           8 lines  10-AUG-1993 13:18
>>                   -< what everyone needs: another ND book >-
 
    Don't worry TTom, you'll have "Under the Tarnished Dome" by SI to
    counter it.  Hey ND sells, either way. Even *I* cain't stomach to
    read all this stuff.
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>New book out:

  >>	Notre Dame's Greatest Coaches
  >>	Rockne, Leary, Parseghian, Holtz
                ^^^^^^
    
    Now this here is the all-time Freudian slip. Don't ah wish, TTom.
    Dat's LEAHY... but I accept the unintentioned honor  8^)
                
    
>>Written by former Irish player, coach and AD, Moose Krause.

  Yessir. ol' Moose who just passed away.  Played for Rockne, coached
    under Leahy,  and as AD hired Parseghian and Holtz.
    Did they mention he hired Faust!!  8^)
    
    MikeL
    

Hail, I thought they was talking about Timothy Leary ;-).

TTom

    Will the book be under the non-fiction or fiction side of the
    best-seller-list?
    
    REK

    Will Lou Holtz say that it is the worst book he's ever seen and that no
    person with half a brain should waste any time reading it?  Will he say
    that it's sooo bad that it shouldn't even be in the same room with
    anybody?
    
    inquiring mindless.....
    
    I remain,
    wondering about the press conference?
    Kev
    

Cheer, cheer for Old Notre Dame
Wake up the echoes cheering her name!
Send the volley cheer on high,
Shake down the thunder from the sky.
What though the odds be great or small
Old Notre Dame will win over all
While her loyal sons go marching onward to victory!

'Saw, what's wif all this ND cheering for stuff?  Rates right up there with
Hal's wooffin' all over the place...

>'Saw, what's wif all this ND cheering for stuff?  Rates right up there with
>Hal's wooffin' all over the place...


Well, Mike's been doing his level best to convert me, and it's working I 
guess.  

And besides, the ND Fight Song ain't no WOOF...it's classier....8^)


'Saw

    Yassir,
    
    Tain't sure I can convert the 'Sawmain to total NDism, but ah know
    he sure likes that scintillating fight song!
    
    It's getting near that time
    
    MikeL
    

re: "NDism"

Sounds like something from MOIRA::NATURISM.

TTom

|re: "NDism"
|
|Sounds like something from MOIRA::NATURISM.
|
|TTom


One of Hawk's favorite conferences!

�Is Naturism a sport?

more importantly, are Naturists athletes?

>more importantly, are Naturists athletes?

Well, according to JD, I think they are.  I mean, the first sports started
out in Greece in the Olympics, and they all competed nude (which must've
made wrassling interesting).

As long as the nude athlete doesn't use any engines or stuff like that,
then nude people playing sports are athletes.... according to the JD theory.


hth,
'Saw

    
    'Saw,
    
    	I thought you was a 'Bama man?  If I read one more note from
    	you considering ND allegiance, you'll be banned for life
    	from grits and being a 'Bama fan!
    
    Claybone

>    
>    	I thought you was a 'Bama man?  If I read one more note from
>    	you considering ND allegiance, you'll be banned for life
>    	from grits and being a 'Bama fan!
>    
>    Claybone

Oh, I am a 'Bama fan, in fact, the only college hat I have (other than
the obligatory UCONN one) is a 'bama hat.

But I do like that ND fight song.  Comes from years of playing in marching
bands...  Every one I was ever in, we played the ND fight song....

Plus, it seems that all we ever see up here is ND on TV, so I tend to
root for them, rather than most of the teams they play against, most
of whom I don't like.....

Does this help, Claybone?

'Saw

> Plus, it seems that all we ever see up here is ND on TV, so I tend to
> root for them

I thought that was one of the better reasons to root against them.

The Crazy Met

>I thought that was one of the better reasons to root against them.

I just don't like a lot of the teams they play against.

So, while the Crimson Tide is my favorite, I'll pull for ND on a Saturday
afternoon in front of the TV.

And besides, I DO like that ND fight song!


'Saw

    Po ND, everyone hates us. gollum gollum sniff sniff
    

    
    	Alright then.  Half a ban....NO MORE GRITS for you! :*)
    
    Claybone

    Bahh,Tommy
    
    It's because of misperception. We'e just not understood.
    
    MikeL
    

Claybone,

I ain't never had grits, so I don't know what I might be missin.....


'Saw

    grits....
    
    Ain't that the scandanavian word for " t e s t i c l e s "???????
    
    grins.....
    
    I remain,
    Kev_for_something_JaKe_Shouldda_really_entered!
    

  I guess I could tolerate ND if the the dern TV dint have that wimpy, 
  whinning weasel, Lou Holetz, spottin off on every sports show that gets 
  aired.

	nuf said,

		Keith

    'Saw,
    
    	A Bama fan who's never partook of grits?  Sheesh!
    
    	Next time you're at the grocery store, head over to
    	where they sell the hot cereals.  Buy grits.  They
    	are best wif butter, salt, & pepper.  They're good
    	wif redeye gravy too.  Me mum puts butter & sugar on
    	hers.  Yuck!
    
    	I think everybody understands the Irish jest fine there
    	MikeL.  :*)
    
    Claybone

    
    >>	where they sell the hot cereals.  Buy grits.  They
    >>	are best wif butter, salt, & pepper.  They're good
    >>	wif redeye gravy too.  Me mum puts butter & sugar on
    >>	hers.  Yuck!
    
    Actually, Grits are best when they're  poured out in the hole in the 
    driveway and allowed to harden,  Better than asphalt, although asphalt 
    tastes better.
    
    JaKe
    

      I can sometime force grits down with cheese.....

    Yo bone!
    
    Don't you be pickin' on me Irish there you Muscle Shoals pissant! 8^)
    Now you know I gots nuttin' agin that fine bastion_a_elementary school
    larnin' down therte in Tuscaloosa, but be careful or the Irish'll
    schedule them Tide in another bowl and whup theit sorry-assed
    grit-gulpin', baccy-chawin' butts agin!
    
    BTW if'm ya have to pour butter, red-eyed gravy, salt, pepper,
    molasses,
    beer and what all on top of em, you might as well be chewin' on
    a flavored cockroach.
    
    MikeL
    
    P.S.  And yes, I've had grits down in South Carolina. Yuck!
    

    
    >>BTW if'm ya have to pour butter, red-eyed gravy, salt, pepper,
    >>molasses,
    >>beer and what all on top of em, you might as well be chewin' on
    >>a flavored cockroach.           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    This would be a true viable alternative to grits, IMHO.
    
    JaKe
    

Well, I guess the 'Saw will have to make up his own mind.

I'll try that, Claybone.

'SAw

    
    Ah, locker room quotes already. 
    
    Johnny Robinson new USC haid coach at a rally in Irvine last month
    
    " We will beat Notre Dame."
    
    As if he had an alternative statement.
    
    MikeL
    

    He can have ND.  He won't survive his own conference.

	Looks like the Irish will be without Freshman QB 
	Ron Powlus, who was pushing for the starting job,
	due to a broken collar bone.  He is expected to be
	out at least 2-3 months...Looks like McDougal will
	be the one with Failla the back-up.  

	Unless their D comes up really big, I think it
	may be a long season... Little if any offensive punch.

	Dave

Could it be...

The boston Globe this morning had a story of certain, uh, improprieties in 
the ND football program, which are to be revealed in an upcoming kiss-and-tell
type book.  It specified nothing other than steroid use by athletes, but eluded 
to further infractions.  Of course the University came out with a statement 
that there were no such occurances, and in full support of Lou Holtz.  

I can just hera Lou now "this is the toughest internal investigation I had
since I've been here".

Don't worry, ::SPROTsters, if this is true, I'll administer the I.V. to MikeyL.
(I.V. Bushmills of course).

=Bob=

    
    Bob,
    This is the book I referred to a couple of months ago. It's called
    "Under the Tarnished Dome, How ND Sold its Soul to Return to Football
    Glory". Its authors are two SI writers who basically heap abuse on
    Holtz and point to so-called indiscretions during his regime.
    I'll reserve comment until I read it and hear the resulting brouhaha.
    
    Remember that this type of stuff sells big and I'm sure the authors
    had nothing but the purest intent in doing the research.
    
    Re-Powlus
    
    Dave and I talked about this yesterday and for sure it hurts the ND
    QB depth. I'm not so sure that Powlus was ready to take over the #1
    position, even if Holtz said so ( he's known fer blowing smoke!!).
    From what I understand, up to one week ago, McDougal was #1, Failla
    #2( he might have slipped because of missed practices), and Powlus #3.
    I think Holtz had planned all along to use McDougal until he proved
    he couldn't do it. Now losing Powlus hurts no doubt, we'll see how
    much.
    
    MikeL
     
    

    
    I've read comments from independent critics who have stated that the
    book heaps abuse. But I'll take that back till I read it.
    
    And where have I ever stated that ND's program shouldn't be
    investigated if it is warranted? I welcome it!  My gut feel from
    the title of the book is that the authors looked to find any
    substantiated evidence to support their premise "Under the tarnished
    Dome", cuz it SELLS. But what do I know, I ain't perfect.
    
    I'll wait
    
    MikeL
    
    

    
    Oh,
    Ain't you also jumping the gun with "(and probably true)"?
    What are you basing this statement on?  Seems like you need to
    back off as well till *you* read the book as well.
    
    And I don't *crow* about ND having a premier program. If by premier
    program you mean having an academically-responsble, rules-abiding,
    competitive athletic sport, then I expect it from the University.
    If they don't adhere to these standards, they should be called on
    the carpet. 
    
    Moreover, I've not heard the NCAA investigating ND either before
    these allegations are published nor have I heard of any plans to do
    so. It's my perception, however biased, that this book only reinforces
    those who hate ND, and inflames those who support it. But that's
    all supposition so we'll see.
    
    Miami can do whatever the hell they want. I loved Ericson's comments
    on the "Blades" investigation. I parasphrase " That all happened years
    ago, no one renmains here who might have been involved."
    Beautiful Dennis. Git that big broom and look for the nearest carpet.
    Credit the University of Miami president for pledging to conduct an
    internal investigation. Wonders never cease.
    
    MikeL
    
    
    
    

    
    Ah but random steroid use ( by one or two) is much different than
    steroid abuse. That guy Huffman said he used steroids, and albeit
    accused widespread abuse. He has gottewn zero corroboration from other
    players and coaches. I don't think the univ. VP would be so naive to
    think that bthere was *no* steroid use. No has come out besides
    Huffman and stated he used steroids. Huffman went on to implicate
    Holtz and the athletic dept in knowledge of steroid use. THAT is what
    I believe has been categorically denied. Even players who left ND and
    did not see eye to eye with Holtz scoffed at Huffman's allegations (
    Jeff Pearson of MSU).
    
    So be careful withy these "and probably true" generalizations.
    
    Gerry Faust was not given the boot(i.e fired). His contract which ran
    five years, was not renewed. He failed to field competetive teams.
    Why should any program settle for mediocrity? He knows he was over
    his head and ND showed class in *not* firing him ( Lord knows I
    would have sent him packing). ND was burned for firing Terry Brennan
    in the 50's (unjustly IMO). In this case, ND admitted that it had made
    a mistake in hiring Faust because he just is not a bigtime college
    coach. Haven't seen the Akron Zips burnin' up Division 2, have we?
    
    Erickson gave the impression of "sweeping things" under the carpet.
    Are we supposed to take his word that all is OK now? If that were
    Holtz, he'd be keelhauled in every publication from here to Nome,
    Alaska.
    
    MikeL
    

   
  �   Erickson gave the impression of "sweeping things" under the carpet.
  �  Are we supposed to take his word that all is OK now? If that were
  �  Holtz, he'd be keelhauled in every publication from here to Nome,
  �  Alaska.
 
Oh yes, another Po' Po' Lou Holtz situation.  

If you took a poll on the most dispised football program in the NCAA, I would 
suspect that Miami would finish significantly ahead of ND.  With their on and 
off field antics, I suspect that many people would take joyin their program 
tumbling down.  So I don't buy that Dennis Erickson gets away with things Po' 
Lou doesn't.

=Bob=

    We all realize that the charges brought forth in the Blades
    investigation happened pre-Erickson.  I find his attitude
    irresponsible.
    I'm glad that Miami's Prez has initiated an internal investigation,
    even if it is beyond the 5 yrs NCAA period for assessing penalties.
    
    My point is that if Holtz or anyone else at ND had made that semmingly
    flippant remark, they would have justifiably been raked over the coals.
    And with Holtz, it seems that it doesn't take much for him to get
    clobbered in the press, even if he brings half of it on by himself.
    You'll never see hin blowin' smoke or making flippant remarks when it
    comes to questions on the respectability of the athletic program.
    
    MikeL
    

Not firing Faust vs not renewing his contract is much more than just
semantics.

The Crazy Met (not an ND fan at all!)

 

>>       I'm not familiar with Huffman's allegations but the fact that
>>       no one else has stepped forward and said, "I used illegal drugs,
>>       too!" doesn't really mean much one way or the other, does it?
>>       And if it is your contention that just *one* ND player, of all
>>       those who have played for Holtz, used steroids then I think you 
>>       have a rather rosy view of the world. 
    
    I suggest you re-read my note. I said that neither I nor the University
    admin people were so naive that we couldn't fathom the idea that some,
    IMO albeit little, steroid use did go on. Huffman, in subsequent
    interviews, backed off from his original contention that there was
    "smoking-gun" evidence that steroid *use*, not even abuse, went on.
    He saidfm No I really can't prove it, but I know it did go on, with
    coaches' knowledge. I'm not even suggesting that steroid use did not
    go on, but to give the implication of widespread use and complicity
    of the ND community was never corroborated, dismissed out of hand,
    and even scoffed at ( by those who left and disliked Holtz).
    
 >>   Substitute Miami for ND
    
    Do I have to? 
    
>>       and nobody buys that scenario. Also, if it is Hufman's assertion 
>>       that Holtz and the athletic department were familiar enough with 
>>       the athletes and the signs of steroid use that they should have
>>       known something was going on even if they didn't openly support 
>>       or encourage it then that's a matter of opinion and my opinion is 
>>       that he's right. I don't think that steroid use at ND was any worse 
>>       than at any other top ten football program and if this were any other
>>       progran there'd be a general "so what?" attitude about it. 
    
    My opinion is that he is way off-base as far as complicity with the
    coaching staff.  And there was widespread drug testing. Are you
    questioning the drug test results? Or do you think the coaches should
    have checked for excessive blemishes or shrunken testicles ( and yes
    I know there are weays to subvert any drug test). Why do you choose
    to believe huffman? Do you really thibnk Holtz is that craven (this is
    an honest quesation)?
    
    
 >>   But ND
 >>      has always painted itself as squeaky clean in a down and dirty
 >>     business and that's much of what makes this news.
   
    
    ND does no such thing. ND *is* painted with this image and such is
    life. ND astrives to uphold its standards with no "higher ground"
    intended. It strives towards the same standards as other great
    programs such as Michigan, Stanford, Penn St, Alabama, any many others.
    But I will agree that because of this image, that's why it's news. 
   
     >> Gerry Faust was not given the boot(i.e fired). His contract which ran
     >> five years, was not renewed. 

    >>>   Semantics.
    
    Nope. Gerry Faust, who I understand is a fine and decent man, was not
    fired. His contract was to last five years. The University chose not
    to renew. He was not a college coach (Division1). ND is more than
    guilty in thinking Faust was qualified in the first place so the
    mistake was the AD in hiring him. They did not compound that
    mistake by firing him. Firing Faust means letting him go during
    his contract; ND, I repeat, showed class in *not* canning him.
    He was overmatched, he knew it. BTW, he holds nothing against the
    University and he shouldn't. They gave him the chance and he
    did not succeed in fielding a competetive team. That'as life.
    Ask Gerry how he feels about ND... it's all positive.
    
    

   > >> He failed to field competetive teams. Why should any program settle 
   > >> for mediocrity? 

    >>   What were his graduation rates? They were as close to perfect as
    >>   possible but that wasn't good enough. ND *couldn't* fire him and 
    >>   still maintain the facade of academics being as important as foot-
    >>   ball.

    First of all, the coach lives with the mandate at ND to ensure that
    his players strive for academic excellence and he knows it. This
    mandate has been around since Rockne, Leahy, Devore, Kuharich, Brennan,
    Parseghian, Devine, Faust, and Holtz. What's the point?? Faust's
    graduation rates were damn good, consistent with all the other
    ND coaches ( notice that I included a coupla coaches who had losing
    record and *their* contracts were not renewed). And he should be
    commended for continuing this mandate (BTW, afore you accuse me of
    elitism, plenty of schools share in the same mandate).
    
    Your contention that ND maintains a "facade" of academic xcellence
    as regards to emphasis is downright laughable and ignorant of the
    facts. Along with many other schools, this is paramount to the
    success of the athletic dept throught the years. This has been evident
    at ND since the beginning ( again, that's not elitism, but a standard
    that many strive for. I'm proud that ND will not compromise in this
    matter.). And before you say it, look up the dadgum facks joself. And
    while you're at it, produce the Yaz and Reggie stats too!
  
    
     > >> Erickson gave the impression of "sweeping things" under the carpet.
    >> Are we supposed to take his word that all is OK now? 

    >>>   Has it been proven that he's done anything improper? Or is the
    >>>   fact that he's the coach of Miami enough to convict and the fact
    >>   that Holtz coaches ND enough to acquit?
    
    Who said Erickson did anything improper? And who's convicting him?
    I just think his statement is irrespnsible. Do you believe him
    when he says that nothing goes on at Miami anymore. My own
    opinion is that I believe he's telling da troof ( that is if he
    still pushes for those student-athletes to go to class).
    But looking at past history, Erickson should say squat and let
    his prez do the investigatin'. 
    
    And if Nd is accused of anything improper, bring on the sleuths.
    
    
    MikeL
    
    

    My point is that even I, someone who likes to see ND lose, agrees that
    keeping Faust around was a class thing to do. Firing and not renewing
    are very very different things, not just a matter of semantics.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    I cain't Tommy, I'm longwinded, verbose, and circumlocutious (sp)
    
    Must be me college background!
    
    MikeL
    

    -1
    
    Faust was not renewed because he could not field competetive teams
    that would have yielded the necessary dinero and exposure to continue
    to field comepetitive teams. And where is the hint at lesser priority
    for academic achievement and excellence evident is this?
    Pure hogwash on your part. Look at the graduation rates for all
    coaches. Faust's was excellent as were the rest. I repeat, ND hires
    its coaches to maintain the integrity of the university in striving
    for academic achievement for his/her athletes, strict adherence to
    the administration's and NCAA rules, and fielding competetive teams.
    Which part of "fielding competetive teams" don't you understand?
    Of course football is a cash cow whose proceeds go into the general
    (read not just athletic) coffers. ND strives to maintain high academic
    and ethical standards while fielding competetive football teams.
    Should ND strive for mediocrity?? I think not!
    
    I have not painted Erickson as being an ogre. I just feel his statement
    was irresponsible. More power to him if upgrades Miami's program
    academically. And if Lou has diminished ND's, then off with his head!
    
    MikeL
    
    
    
    

    
    Yabbut so did anybody else catch Paul Harvey lasted night?
    
    Had a interesting story....
    
    So this man walks into the admissions office of a kolledge and says
    "this is a nice place.  I'd like to go to school here".  The admission
    people ask him how old he was and he replied he was 22 and didn't have
    a high school diploma.  He said he wanted to work for a while and even
    though he didn't have the hs thang, he was sure that he could pass
    whatever admission test they would give him.
    
    So the kid takes the test and passes it with flying colors.  Starts
    attending classes and is a "A" student.  One of the requirements of the
    school is that every student had to participate in a athletic activity
    so the kids tries out for football.  After a day of trying out as a
    running back, he had a total yardage of 2 yards!  As a punter, he
    dropped the ball and the coach told the kids he should try another
    sport.
    
    In the classroom, the kid excelled in Chemistry.  He did so well that
    the Deptartment chairman hired the kid, as an undergraduate, to teach
    Chemistry to undergraduates!  First time that had ever happened.
    
    The kid graduated and never left the school.  
    
    The school?
    
    Notre Dame
    
    The Kid?
    
    
    
    Knute Rockne
    
    
    I remain,
    junior Paul Harvey, "Good Day"
    Kev
    

> >> Faust was not renewed because he could not field competetive teams
> >> that would have yielded the necessary dinero and exposure to continue
> >> to field comepetitive teams. 
> 
>    Translation: football is a business. It's not for the betterment of
>    the students or the enjoyment of the student body. It's business.

     Football IS a business.  That has nothing to do with the second
     statement, which is completely false.

> >> Which part of "fielding competetive teams" don't you understand?
>  
>    Notre Dame doesn't just want "competitive teams. They want national 
>    championships. And I for one don't think you can have true "academic
>    excellence" and a national championship program. Notre Dame is perp-
>    etrating a sham. Watch a ND game and count the number of communications
>    majors in the gold helmets.

     Interesting opinion, but I think that a large number of successful
     schools who contend for national championships would say this is false.
     Even if it can't be done, that doesn't mean any of those schools,
     Notre Dame included, is perpetrating a sham.

> >> Should ND strive for mediocrity?? I think not!
> 
>    I think honesty would be a more noble goal.   

     So what dishonesty have you proven ?  What facts have you provided ?
     None that haven't been effectively refuted.

    
    	I guess I don't get the point here.  Who cares if football makes
    	money for the school (as long as it is distributed equally amongst
    	the students).  My opinion is there is a place in college for big
    	time sports that make money for the school.  
    
    	Who cares if somebody is majoring in communications? Not everybody can
    	be a EE major and sport a 4.0 gpa.  There are other facets to
    	life......like athletics.
    
    Claybone                                                 

The money isn't evenly distributed to the students. The money is distributed to
the administrators, coaches and other employees. No money gets distributed to
the students. In fact most of the money is fed back into the program itself in
the form of equipment, travel and others.

I say its the fault of the NCAA as much the member schools for perpetuating
this sham. I think that the athletes earning this money for the school should
at least be given some sort of monthly stipend to rid us of this fraud of play
for education....

Get a big time football scholarship...
go to school and earn said school gobs of money for the privelege of getting an
education there but said school will make damn sure you know you're there to
play football and not really get an education.

It's a travesty being fed by school administrators, coaches, The NCAA and
feeding off of niave kids...

Metz

�    	I guess I don't get the point here.  Who cares if football makes
�    	money for the school (as long as it is distributed equally amongst
�    	the students).  My opinion is there is a place in college for big
�    	time sports that make money for the school.  
    
    I think the point here is that the bigtime college athletic programs
    are trying to talk out of both sides of their mouths.  One the one hand
    they say that acedemics is the sole purpose of colleges, on the other
    they are trying to stuff their pockets via the athletic programs.

    Metz is right.  The NCAA oughta just admit that the Division I schools
    are merely a farm system for the NBA and NFL and quit pretending
    they're churning out student atheletes.

    Trash? What trash?  They was just exuberant cuz they dodged a major
    bullet. Now I like NU's QB, Williams, He's a major league trasher
    and can back it up!
    
    Boy was dat butt-ugly! NU put a serious first half stat whuppin on
    me Irish. ND was fortunate to be up a point at halftime. Whew!
    NU's 5 main passing attack is fun to watch. if they had any mo'
    depth and quality players, the 'Cats coulda walked out with a
    stunning "W". Man, I thought that this is gonna be a looooong season.
    ND's supposed vaunted defense lookingf lost and the offense with 3 and
    out.
    
    Second half things looked much better. Defense adjusted and offense got
    some momentum. McDougal looked purty comfortable as #1 QB as the
    game progressed. As Dave McNeil said, this is not gonna be an
    offensive machine. Hope that the Irish open thangs up. They have a
    healthy set of receivers in Dawson, Mayes, Miller, and McBride, and
    McDougal's passes looked on target mostly. But this was against NU,
    let's see if they can do anything against Michigan (ouch!)
    
    The defense settled down as well ( at least they'll know how to
    prepare agin Stanford and BYU down the road) but they need to improve
    on pash rush and LB pass defesnse. I'm impressed with the secondary
    but ND's weakness is definitely underneath coverage by the linebackers.
    Pete Bercich is dang good ( as is the whole d) agin the run, but
    woefully weak against the pass. Look for Todd Collins and Michigan
    to try and exploit Wheatley and the TE against Bercich.
    
    Well you boys got all over me for supposed "sandbaggin'", but ah done
    told you that the Irish belong anywhere from #11-20( hopefully!).
    
    I don't believe Irish can go up to Ann Arbor and upset the Wolverines.
    There's a good reason why Michigan is a 9 pt favorite.
    
    Michigan 17
    ND        9
    
    
    MikeL
     

 HAHA MikeL....It's Michigan remember? Didn't even Faust beat Michigan?
 
 Lou's being awfully quiet about the book. Can only be one reason for that
 and it's cause it's the truth. Lou's never been one to be at a loss for
 words or to shameless promote himself. He high and mighty crap has been
 exposed!!!!!!!!!

 mike

    
    Michigan?  Michigan?  Why we don't even belong in the same city as that
    club!  They're light years ahead of our team and I don't know if we
    should even bother to show up on Saturday.  Personally, all I'm hopping
    for is that we escape with our lives and the ability to have bowel
    movements!
    
    I remain,
    Kev_for_Sid_for_Lou_Holtz
    

    rollwards Kev; you got that patter down perfectly.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Kev,
    Send that to Lou, puhleeze. Ah don't think he could match it!
    
    Holtz has been ordered by the university to shaddap on the book and
    stick to the team.  The administration has called the book "character
    assassination" and will be dealing with the fallout (yeah, yeah, I
    know). Jeez, Mike, I love your open mind about it. Must be true, eh?
    
    And show me where y'all believe ND cain whup Michigan based on last
    week's performance. Damned godawful I say!
    
    MikeL
    
    

 Since when did freedom of speech get removed as a right? Holtz could speak
 if he wanted too. Hiding behind the Administartion is his style though...

 I'm not saying ND will win but the fact that it is Michigan who's blown
 more than their share of games against dogs leads me to believe the Irish
 stand a decent chance of winning this one. 

 Besides Holtz as a dog is usually at his best...

 I'm not open minded on the subject because it isn't the first time that
 ole Lou's been called up before. He's been fortunate in the past, hopefully
 this time his house of card$$$$$$$ comes tumblin' down......

 mike     

    
    The governement may not restrict freedom of speech, your employer can.
    Bill of Rights specifically applies to the government; Congress has
    subsequently passed laws that extend some of those rights into the
    workplace.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    No Mike, Holtz is not hiding behind the administration. He's been told
    to concentrate on his job and let the schoold handle the news. After
    all the title is "Under the tarnished Dome, etc" It's their domain
    dude. I'm sure that Holtz will address it after the season.
    
    And do I think ND has a chance, however I don't think it's a good one.
    
    
    And Tommy, I *do* like Williams. Gotta love the kids from NU and ND
    who go to real classes and git educated, normal trash-talkin'
    notwithstanding.
    
    MikeL
    
    

    My Dad will be there (as usual) on Saturday, and I'll be there in
    spirit.

    Mike,
    Yo' Pop is a_Blue grad/fan??!!
    
    Lemmee know nexted time, maybe I can git tix??
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

 Sorry Mike I ain't buy it!!! Shovel that load somewhere else. Considering
 that book rips Holtz more than ND the title is just a formality..I don't
 think they could call it the Lou Holtz story without his permission...

 Face ND sold their soul to the Debil for Football glory....

 ;^)

    Sorry Mike
    
    The admin put the kaibosh on Holtz gettin' in a pi&&ing contest
    with SportsExcoriated which would detract from his coaching
    responsibilities. The University will handle the publicity and
    if needed Holtz will address it after the year.
    Don't jump to contusions there mikey.
    
    Might be all-out war between ND and SportsInfuriate.
    
    
    MikeL
    

    Yo
    
    And what's with this "exit" after all of yo' notes, mike??
    Ya leave mo' doors open than Michael Jackson should have.
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

    Hey Tommytune,
    Back off jack!!
    
    Trash talkin' from Miami never bothered me. It's part of the game
    and the 'Canes could back it up. It's a fine line between trash-
    talkin' and showboatin' which both ND and Miami have done ( more so
    Miami butyouain'tsurprisedIsaidthateh?). No big deal.
    
    Kinda punctured your windsail with that admittance wot??
    
    MikeL
    

>    Mike,
>    Yo' Pop is a_Blue grad/fan??!!
    
    He's a fan, his brother is a grad.  My uncle did his undergraduate law
    at Michigan.  They both attend the Notre Dame game every other year in
    Ann Arbor.
    
>    Lemmee know nexted time, maybe I can git tix??
    
    When I make the next game, we'll all go.
    
    Mike

ok I accept your statement that the University put the kabosh on Lou..

 WHY?

 Cause the only reason that makes any sense that they wouldn't want 
 Lou out there defending the University is cause they/he's quilty.
 
 mike 

    Nightline's Tuesday night show was devoted to the book. I only saw part
    of it,but it seemed like it was negative towards ND.

    OK so that's one writer from UPI's take on it. BFD. He's entitled.
    Are you posting that to prop up your opinion or as the ultimate judge
    and jury? And Yaeger says that ND has a nice chemistry dept.? 
    Nice bit of investigative journalism there.
    
    Has he (the UPI main) talked to the University people (I don't mean Holtz)?
    
    
    
    Mystique and image do not constitute higher moral grounds. ND is and
    always has been made up of humans who make errors just like any
    other university and hold themselves to a high standard (just as the
    author pointed out and other schools do the same). When they don't
    perform up to this standard, they are certainly responsible
     Yes, they are responsible for promoting this ND
    mystique and have to bear the brunt of being in the spotlight. That's
    life. What I disagree and object to is that people automatically 
    assume that promoting this mystique constitutes "higher moral ground"
    and the "holier than thou". ND IMO, and geez I went there and ah
    don't believe I had the wool pulled over me eyes, doesn't hold
    this air of superiority nor is it so naive to think it exists
    on a higher plane.
    
    MikeL
    
    
    
    life.  

    re: .200
    
    nope you had the wool pulle dover your eyes; no question about that.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 35.203                     NOTRE DAME SPORTS                     203 of 203
MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!"            16 lines   9-SEP-1993 16:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  >> Are you posting that to prop up your opinion 

>>>     Yup. Until now, Mike, you haven't waivered from your belief that
>>>     Holtz and the ND football program were above reproach. Two writers,
    
    Never said they were above reproach. I believe that neither Holtz
    nor the University is culpable.  
    
    
 >>     and reputable ones at that, were dismissed as sensationalists and
 >>    mudslingers and "heaping abuse" for daring to write something neg-
 >>     ative about the Iwish. As if, ND operated in some sort of vaccum 
 >>    and were somehow immune to the other pressures and mistakes that
 >>    face other schools.
    
    How do you know they're reputable?? From each one's background as I
    understand that Looney is reputable and Yaeger is not. And I thought
    I took that statement back because I haven't read the book
    
  >>   Now, a third voice chirps in and says, "just 
  >>   maybe ND isn't the little group of choirboys that they like to 
  >>   have everyone think they are" and suddenly people wonder. There
  >>   may or may not be anything to it. 
    
    Again I repeat, this third voice chirps in with his opinion and
    do we know if HE did any investigation, or did he just read the
    book and not look for the opposite view?  
    And who said ND was a group of choirboys. Preconceived notions
    me main.
    
    
    >> But the accusations can't be
     summarily dismissed just because it's Notre Dame we're talking 
     here. It'll be intersting to see if the NCAA investigates or if 
   >>  ND walks because it is after all ND.
    
    Who is summarily dismissing them? ND admin? Maybe, but perhaps
    they're closer to the situatiuon than you or I. I'm not dismissing
    them. If there are things that need to be questioned, then let
    anybody minvestigate. But because this is ND, people who question
    ND anyway reinforce their views and summarily accept them (note I
    didn't say you, yet!). Gee, I don't think the NCAA let ND walk
    when DuBose was found guilty of infractions.
    
    MikeL
    

    *****LDUC ALERT*****LDUC ALERT****LDUC ALERT****LDUC ALERT****LDUC ALERT
    
    
    
    

    -1
    Yeah I know, but ah enjoys the repartee with Mr Show Me..
    
    I envision Tommy, on that sad day in the distant future when he
    departs this sphere and spirals upward, meeting St. Peter 
    and upon hearing St Peter say, "Tommy, I want you to meet your
    Maker, to which Tommy replies, "Oh yeah, prove it!"
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

    Yeah and Lee Corso has predicted that Michigan would win the
    national champeenship the last ten years.
    
    MikeL
    

    Who's Lee Corso and why should we care?

    Lee Corso is ESPN's college football analyst. Similar to the role Peter
    Gammons has for ESPN on MLB.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Serves me right for not hot-wiring my neighbor's cable feed.

    
    	Lee Corso is an idjit!

	Lee Corso also predicted Michigan would womp the IRISH
	31-10 on Saturday....Guess what....he was WRONG!

	# 11 Irish    27  
	# 3  Michigan 23

	Lou looked anything but distracted by all the BS about
	the book and again proved that he is one of the best
	game day coaches around.  He sure turned those guys
	around after last weeks poor performance. 

	Dave

    Where is MikeL??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Winners never gloat, Craze.
    
    MikeL
    

    Congrats to MikeL.  The Michigan defense took the first half off and
    just couldn't recover.  As much as I hate to say this, Lou Holtz
    coached an excellent game, and the Irish played good football.
    
    I guess the bright side is that disappointment came early in the
    season, so I don't have to have my hopes building all season, only to
    see them lose to Minnesota in November.  It ain't easy being a Michigan
    fan.
    
    Sid (who wouldn't wanna be wearing a Houston uniform next Saturday)

    Yeah, I missed the first half, but I guess it was too much for Michigan
    to recover from.... sigh...
    

    Thank you all fer the resounding accolades!! 8^)
    
    See I done tole' y'all the most Michigan alums had class ( Sid!!).
    
    Hats off to Lou and the Irish. Great win over the Wolverines.
    Watched the first half at Champeens Sports Bar in Beantown wif Dave
    McNeil and numerous other ND Boston alumni clubbers! Did I tell ya
    I'm probably old enough to be most of them's pappy! (Shaddap Dave!)
    Best sight of the day had to be watching the TV catch a glimpse of dat
    rather rotund Maize and Blue bedecked official bangin' his haid
    in frustration agin the goal post! Coulda been me off'n the bar stool!
    
    As Sid said, it's still early for Michigan and they still could be
    in the title hunt if they win in their conference. That Wheatley is
    a load, wow.
    
    Now on to perennial long time rival Michigan State. Usually a very
    tough, physical game for ND, especially after a Michigan game.
    The last two years, however, MSU has gone through the motions and ND
    clobbered them ( gotsta remember that the Irish had jest come off
    a loss and a tie to Michigan so they had no reason to take MSU
    lightly).
    
    Michigan St has to be looking for ND to be suffering from a Maize
    and Blue hangover. I have no idea how strong/weak MSU is, but I
    gotsta believe that this game will be a whole lot tougher than the
    last two.
    Irish have several areas they have to improve upon. First, they need
    better production from their backfield (especially fullback) and
    offensive line. Lee Becton and Randy Kinder looked sharp at TB and
    were getting to the holes, but FB's Zellars and Edwards had little
    yardage. Look for ND to try and establish some progress in the running
    game. On defense, the only area of concern I see is defending the short
    pass and the TB sweeps. Why? Lack of speed at LB position. MSU will
    probably try to expoit Bercich and Goheen via the pass.
    
    But I think ND will survive a sluggish performance.
    ND  23
    MSU 17
    
    
    MikeL
    
     
    
    
    

    This is the best Spartan team in recent memory... of course I don't
    remember have the things ND was accused of...
    

    How about dem Irish, eh!!
    
    Butt-whuppin' of MSU! Never seen such a huge waste_a_humanity than 
    the Spartans' offensive and defensive lines. 300 lb average and
    couldn't move me. Perles is awful. Git the hook. Biggie Munn and 
    Duffy Daugherty are rollin' in their graves.
    
    Game fooled me too. Thought ND would look sluggish. NOT!
    
    Woulda been in here earliwer too, but had to attend a mandatory
    morning SA class ( Sandbaggers Anonymous). I need help man.
    I still think ND will only beat Purdue by 7.
    
    MikeL
     
    
    

	Hey MikeL, I saw Denny Rieu yesterday and he wanted me to axe you a 
question.  He told me that a week ago when Notre Dame played Michigan that 
the ND players had the same colored gloves as the Michigan shirts and were 
instructed to change them before the kickoff.  Denny said it was a rule 
that teams can't have the same colored gloves as the other team's jerseys 
(makes sense to me since it would be easy to hold if they allowed it).  
Well Denny's question is "Is Lou Holtz a cheatin' scumbag or is he just 
stoopid?".  I told him I would pass along your answer.

				/Don

    Why neither there Donald.
    
    ND's colors are blue and gold, so the blue glove is natural.
    
    However, some writer will pick up on it, " How Notre Dame Uses
    The Same Color Gloves as the Opposition's Jerseys to Cheat
    Their Way to Glory." 
    
    Where's Looney and Yaeger?
    
    MikeL
    

    	So you're saying it was just a minor faux pas, kind of like turning
    your head while 18 year old 300 lbs. slabs of beef stick syringes in
    their buttocks?
    
    				/Don

Even though Loo spends all week watching game film he obviously forgot what
color MSU wears :-)

Loo "the drowned rat" Holtz wouldn't try and gain an unfair advantage...


Metz

    
    >>	So you're saying it was just a minor faux pas, kind of like turning
   
    What faux pas? Seems like worm fungus to moi. Who cares?
    Let's see, next time ol' Lou spits on one of his offensive linemen,
    some muckraker will claim it's really illegal stickum, a Holtzian plot.
    
  >>   your head while 18 year old 300 lbs. slabs of beef stick syringes in
  >>  their buttocks?
    
    Jeez, I think I'd turn mah haid rather than watch this spectacle.
    And make that 300 lbs._academic_beef.
    
    
    
    MikeL
    			

>> After watching ND play Saturday and Bettis, Brooks and a bunch of other ND
>>Alumni play yesterday, 
    
    Yessir, warms the cockles of me heart to see such outstanding literate
    young men doing well on the football field. Not only do they enjoy
    the luxury of a fine education ( and yes Jerome WILL graduate!), but
    show they have fine learning capacity to withstand the stress of
    a student_athalete at ND and excel. They will be productive as
    well in the cummunity of life after their playing days, thanks in
    no small part to their enriched lives under the Golden Dome!
    
   >> I am more in awe of how Lou manages to win with these
  >>stiffs than ever. Yup, Saturday one of the announcers remrked how Lou had
>>recruited the #1 rated running backs from Michigan, Ohio and Illinois to go
>>with a whole host of other high school All-Americas and still they managed 
    
    Lou does have the capacity to blend some gifted athletes into a
    well-oiled atheltic machine. He even makes sure that they strive for
    excellence in the classroom as well. Why he is quite the recruiter
    as you point out. Kinder (Michigan), Edwards (Ohio), and Farmer
    (Illinois) are truly gifted athletically and academically. We shall
    see if Lou can mold these rough sinews of potential into upstanding
    citizens and ballplayers during the next four years. I think he
    will.
    
    
    
>>to beat mighty Michigan State coached by college football's answer to Jim
>>Boehiem, George Perles. Lou Holtz - whatta coach, whatta guy. 
    
    Well I couldn't agree more Thomas. Po' George doesn't have a clue, does
    he?
     I shudder to think what ol' Lou woulda done to me Irish if he
    were the Spartan coach. I'm chilled!
    
   >> If only their
   >>schedule were even softer.
    
     Well it will, don't worry. Mighty observant and prescient of you to
    point this out. You've seen through the ND mirage. Why you've got to
    habd it to the Irish, scheduling supposed toughies in the future like
    Texas, Washington, and Ohio St. as well as their old rivals USC,
    Michigan, Stanford, etc. ND certainly knew that Washington would be
    hit with massive penalties in recruiting scholarships, so that
    by 1995 and 1996, whwen the Irish play the Huskies, UDub will be
    a mere shell ofitself. Real smart. And of course, with Mackovic and
    Darnell down in Texas, it'll be a matter of time (two years whwen the
    Irish play 'em), before that program is lookin' up to SMU. And we
    all know that Ohio St is livin' a lie, Coop's done sunk in recruitin'
    in his own state, by 1995 when Nd plays 'em, they'll be lookin' to
    play Gerry Faust (at Akron) rather than Lou.
    
    Kinda makes me wonder why ND scheduled such aberrations as Michigan,
    Stanford, Penn St, FSU, BYU, etc. Musta taken a day off from their
    normal deceitful selves. Tsk tsk...
    
    MikeL
    

    This is NOT the best Purdue team that Holtz has ever seen.
    However, I'm sure ol' Louie'll remind his team how the Boilers
    came close to upsetting Michigan last year before bowing to 
    the Wolverines, 24-17. Hey, whatever it takes to motivate the team,
    Lou, and to motivate is the key.
    
    Now Purdue will certainly remember last year's 48-0 pasting at the
    hands of the Irish ( cuz ah was there!). And they'll certainly want
    to exact some revenge. But I have no idea how they'll be able to do
    it. They should put up a fight fer awhile, but ND's strength and
    depth will git 'em.
    
    
    ND      27
    Purdue  10
    
    MikeL
    

    Notre Dame 63, Purdue 6
    
    NAZZ

  Well does anyone out thar have an opinion on the Buff/Hurry Canes game ?
  
  How bout Oklahoma ? Are they fer real ? I think they got a good shot at
  ending up in the Orange bowl this year.

  Anyone know who the KornHuksters are gonna beat up on this weekend ?
  Is it true that they're gunna play Eastern Alaska Weslyian ?

	Keith	

>    As for you, Heiser. You applauded Chuckie No-Rings for dumping a drink 
>    on a woman's head, you defended KJ for his vicious cheapshot on Doc Rivers
>    and now this Cecil character. If there has been an Phoenix athlete whose 
    
    Oh so now it's 3 instead of 2.  After the last census, there was
    approximately 70 professional athletes in Phoenix (NBA & NFL).  Nice
    math skills you have there.
    
    glad to help,
    Mike

    That's not consistent with 132.110 which isn't consistent with 132.112.
    Make up your mind, man.
    
    In addition, you're in the minority on Cecil's hit.  National media,
    NFL players from various teams, and the majority of fans themselves say 
    it was no spear.  My defense is justified according to the people
    directly involved.  
    
    The other incidents are different in that there are equal numbers on
    both sides of the fence.  Hence, the jury is still out.
    
    Mike

    Not sure Tommy,
    
    Maybe since '83, it's Miami 6-2 or something.
    
    I know Miami killed ND in '85 and inflicted the Irish their only
    loss in '89. ND beat Miami in '88 and '90. I know their were
    other games in the 80's (most won by Miami) but ah'm not sure.
    I'll see if I can find the results.
    
    
    MikeL
    

 Both schools said why beat one another out of a national championship
 in a regular season game when we can do it for 5 million in the bowl of 
 our choice. I would say this is closer to the truth than anyone backing
 out cause of fans etc..........

 mike

ah the old sandbagger at work::

 "I hope they don't look across the sidelines and say hey look they got Bill
 Walsh and look who we got"

 mike

what imagery Tommy

The Crazy Met

    Yeah and that's all it is... imagery and fluff *):::
    
    In troof, I belive that childsey is correct.
    
    MikeL
    

    Gooood test for the Irishy at Stanford on Saturday.
    
    Walsh will throw some kinks at ND, but I think the Irish will try
    to power "O" the so-so Cardinal defense.
    
    Irish up for this one. Defense bends but don't break.
    
    ND 27  Stanford 20
    
    MikeL
    

>    Gooood test for the Irishy at Stanford on Saturday.
>    
>    Walsh will throw some kinks at ND, but I think the Irish will try
>    to power "O" the so-so Cardinal defense.
>    
>    Irish up for this one. Defense bends but don't break.
>    
>    ND 27  Stanford 20
    
Didn't the Irish lose this game last year?

Should be a good one.....


'Saw    

    
    If the Irish don't win by 10+, they should be embarassed.

    Cardinal scored 33 straight second half points lasted year at ND
    to whup me Irish 33-16.
    
    ND had taken a 16-0 first half lead and coulda led by at least 14
    more, they dominated so much.
    Stanford came out of the locker room and put a major league second
    half thrashing on the Irish. Devastating and convincing.
    
    But Stanford does not possess the same strong defense they did last
    year, and their offense has been sporadic.
    
    Irish will win
    
    MikeL
    

    
    MikeL,
    
    	Tell Lou I said to run the ball.  Stanfud was very weak against
    	the run.  CU's option anway......
    
    Claybone

	While channel surfing early last evening I ran across the Lou Holtz 
show.  Since there was absolutely nothing else on I watched for laughs and 
was not disappointed.  First the show's host was smooching Lou's butt about 
how right he was by praising the Purdue team because they gave ND such a 
tough game.  Then Lou starting whining about how talented Stanford was and 
how his offense's talent just didn't match up (no mention about coaching 
abilities).  The Lou litany of complaints included the loooong plane ride 
out to the west coast, etc.  Then the little white haired rat came up with 
the best line of the decade.  He was saying how Notre Dame would have to 
score a lot of points to beat the talented Cardinals but he wasn't sure 
that they could even get a first down!  HAHAHAHAHAHAHA�  I guess if they do 
somehow manage to get a first down it will be a tribute to Lou's coaching 
genius.  HAHAHAHAHAHAHA�.

				/Don                    

    I cannot recall the team but I believe there is a famous and very
    capable coach in the annals of football named Lou Little.
    
    Was it Columbia.

    
    I'm gonna be at the Stanfud Notre Dame game Staurday and it should be
    fun. I don't think Stanfud has the guns on D to win the game (three
    starting frosh) and ony 4 returning starter. Another problem will be
    giving Stenstrom time to throw. He is one of the best in the country if
    he is not on his back counting seagulls flying overhead. Well gotta go
    get burgers for the grill for the tailgate. I'll wave to the camera .
    
    P.S. It's gonna be in the mid 80's great weather for halter top
    watching. 
    
    Ron

    Glad Lou kept ya amused there Slash. Gee weather in the mid-80's??
    Wonder why Lou didn't mention that as an excuse!!
    
    I think ND will run on Stanfuhd. GO Irish!
    
    Say hi to Lou there Ron!!
    
    MikeL
    

    Lou Little was Columibia's coach.
    
    The Crazy met
    

    Actually Tommy,
    
    The team that I thought underachieved was last year's edition,
    if you want to call 10-1-1 an underachievement.  No doubt the
    Irish '92 edition had the most talent of any team under Holtz
    including the '88 national champeenship team and the #2 '89
    edition.  The national banner was the goal in '92 and since they
    did not get it because they hid in the 2nd half agin Stanford,
    then you can call this team (even ending at #4) an underachiever.
    But it really doesn't bother me because two other teams (Miami
    and Alabama and mebbe even FSU) had just as much talent and only
    one came through unscathed.
    
    THe '89 Irish certainly didn't underachieve. Beating 8 bowl teams
    and losing to eventual champ Miami ain't underachieving.
    
    Now the '90 and '91 editions, while offensive powerhouses, had 
    inadequate defenses ( yes, not enough talent) to really compete
    for the national champeenships (thus the two Penn St, Tennessee,
    Stanford debacles, even tho they creamed unbeatable Florida).
    Mirer, in his soph and junior years, seemed to suffer from
    occasional bouts_a_malaise (Tennessee, PSU) and added to ND's
    demise in these games. Overall tho, lack_a_defensive talent done
    do'd 'em in.
    
    Now tell me if BB done underachieved with creme de la creme recruitig
    classes and *zippo* biguns(national gonfalons). So when it comes
    to biguns, the score reads LOU HOLTZ 1  BobbyBlowhard GOOSE EGG BABY!
    
    Yo Slash!
    Did Holtz really say that ( first downs, airplane ride) Sheeesh.
    Give it a rest Lou willya??!!
    
    How 'bout them Irish!! More later
    
    MikeL
    

    FSU has a tougher schedule than ND this year period. 
    Hell you know that scheduling 5 -7 yrs in advance (normal procedure)
    leads to up/down trends in traditional teams' performances.
    
    We'll leave it at this about schedules. FSU has nothing to crow about
    in the past when it has *traditionally* scheduled the
    Tennessee-Chattanoogas, Furman's, Ga. Southerns, West Carolina's, etc
    ad nauseum. I've given credit to FSU for playing Miami and
    Florida. But that was usually (throw in an oncely Michigan and Auburn)
    *it* for FSU. But you patently igore this glaring fact. ND's
    consistent traditional rivals have been MSU, Purdue, USC, Stanford,
    Michigan.. some up, some down.. but they weren't boldly scheduled
    as breathers such as FSU' iluustrious past foes. ( you saw the list).
    FSU mainfully (HAHA) joined the ACC. Looks like its "cake" games are
    conference ones... by design, n'est-ce-pas???
    
    In '89,
    ND was #1 all year till it fell to Miami. ND then beat #1 CU in the
    Orange to enable Miami to claim #1.
    
    ND's '89 bowl opponents?
    Penn St, USC, Colorado, Miami, MSU, Air Force. Don't recall the last
    two. Miami, the #1 team, played 2 bowl teams (Bama and ND). Don't
    know about Forever Sh*tting Us. 
    
    MikeL
    

Notre Dame's schedule for 89 was:

	Virginia (Kickoff);
	at Michigan, Purdue, Stanford, Air Force, Penn St, Miami-FL;
	vs Michigan St, Southern Cal, Pittsburgh, Navy, Southern
		Methodist;
	vs Colorado (Orange Bowl).

	The Irish finished at 12-1, losing only to Miami.

In 89, here's where the opponents went bowling:

	Michigan St, beat Hawaii in Aloha Bowl
	Penn St, beat BYU in Holiday Bowl
	Air Force, lost to Mississipi in Liberty Bowl
	Virginia, lost to Illinois in Citrus Bowl
	Southern Cal, beat Michigan in Rose Bowl
	Pittsburgh, beat Texas A&M in Sun Bowl
	Miami-FL, beat Alabama in Sugar Bowl

	Purdue, Stanford, Navy and SMU did not play in bowls, at least
	that I could find any record of.

TTom

    I knew you would be.
    
    Interestingly, SMU had just been given the death sentence by the NCAA.
    They had a miserable team in '89 and ND offered to void the contract
    with the Mustangs before the season began. Haid coach Forrest Gregg
    refused the offer and wanted his team to "experience" playing at South
    Bend.
    
    Well, "experience" they did. I watched some of it and it was awful
    to watch. ND won 60somefin to 7 or so and I saw thangs I never
    thought I'd see... "intentional" fumbles and incompletions, "tripping"
    over a lineman fer a measly 15 yd gain, etc... by the third stringers.
    (Of course ND didn't "overtly" patronize SMU, but what could they do?).
    Quite a contrast to the major lickin' that the classy Houston Cougars
    laid on the po' Mustangs. If I remember correctly, Klingler was still
    passin' for TD's in the fourth whewn they was up by 70... sad.
    
    I think ND wished SMU woulda stayed home more than the Mustangs did.
    
    Not a purty sight
    
    MikeL
    

SMU fielded no team in 88 and the 89 class was famous for losing to
Houston, 95-21. 

Notre Dame's 59 points was the nexted highest total of thier opponents
that year.

TTom

And Houston was gunning for the century mark at the end.

The Crazy Met

    Yessir, Ol Louie is at it again.
    
    Been getting some info from me sources and Lou's been commenting on the
    rest of ND's schedule.
    Seems Bill Walsh said post-annihilation that ND will win the rest
    of its games. A_course Holtz waxed poetic. No definite quotes but
    I'll paraphrase
    
    1. Pitt-  "I really believe Johhny Majors will have his team playing
               like his 70's Dorsett-lead teams. We have to be on the top
               of our game."
    
    2. BYU    " I really fear this game. LaVelle Edwards is gonna have his
                team ready for a major Holy War."
    
    3. USC    "John Robinson will have USC teraring at us like the LA Rams
               I'm not sure who I'd rather face, the Rams or the Trojans."
    
    4. Navy   " You know the midshipman are gonna flat out play for 60
                minutes. We can't relax one bit for thisd one. George
                Chaump will have his team pumped up for a Roger Staubach
                like performance."
    
    5. FSU    " I'm just gonna tell Bobby not to bother to spend the money
               to fly into South Bend. We're just gonna surrender."
    
    6. BC     " Lemme tell ya, Tom Coughlin has really turned that program
               around after a rough start. Did you see what they did to
               Syracuse? We're gonna have major problems playing this team
               I'll tell ya."
    
    
    Rumor has it that Irish head BB coach John MacLeod's gonna hire Lou
    to butter up *his* opponents during the year.
    
    Ah loves it!
    MikeL
    
    

    Why?
    
    It's public, can ND hep it if their opponents haven't lived up
    to preseason billing?
    
    MikeL
    

    
    >>1. Pitt-  "I really believe Johhny Majors will have his team playing
    >>           like his 70's Dorsett-lead teams. We have to be on the top
    >>           of our game."
    
    What, Lou H. get a hold of some LSD and go tripping around campus jsut
    before making this comment, or hasn't he watched the tapes of their
    games???  Pitt's players have too much trouble getting thru the paper
    hoop.
    
    On top of their game, right.  What game, blind man's bluff???
    
    JaKe
    

    I see there's a movie coming out soon about some ND football player.

It's actually a pretty good story.

I saw the profile of Rudy on CBS Sunday Morning one Sunday, and it's
quite a touching story.....  Good message.


'Saw

    You forgot the kid who wanted to play college basketball, got paid
    to watch the football field grass grow, told drugs would help him play
    better and only had Annette O'Toole as his tutor until one day, he got
    a chance to play and he saved the day...

No, this is a little different.  

First off, it's a true story.......

    Do they play for a tie in the final climatic scene?

    Same theme, different angle I guess..
    
    Rudy Reuttiger, walk-on football player who played in ND'a last
    football game agin Ga. Tech in '75.  That's alll I know.
    I gradiated in '75 so's I musta been there while Rudy was in
    school. But ah was 6 months gone when Rudy got his 10 minutes
    of fame. Now walk-ons were not unique. ND used to dress a\
    boatload for their home games so his situation was not campus
    news so to speak when I was there. Musta been a Class_a_'76 thang.
    
    MikeL
    

    BYU sure will be a toughie for the Irish.  UCLA spotted them 50 points
    last Saturday and still covered!
    
    NAZZ

    We'll see if UCLA is "middle of the road" when they play Washington
    
    You guys don't believe me but BYU plays much better at home than on
    the road. Don't get me wrong, BYU can't stop the Irish. but can
    ND contain the Cougars.
    
    ND  37
    BYU 24
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

    	What a sandbagger.  ND, with their talent should reach triple
    figures against that sorry BYU outfit.
    
    	ND   102
        BYU  -14
    
    				/Don
            

      This will be the best BYU team that ND has faced...
    
      Tim for lou

    UCLA beat Washington.
    ND rolled over BYU.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    I stand by what I said... *IF* ND is not focused and takes teams for
    granted (read BYU and USC), then they'll have a difficult time.
    
    OK, first one accomplished.. They stayed focused and murdered BYU.
    I was surprised at BYU's lack of offense *at home* until it was stat
    time. Not surprised at all with ND's offensive proficiency/BYU's
    woeful defensive ability. ND coulda scored 60 something...
    
    Now I'll also state that USC will give ND a great game, possibly
    even upset them even if ND is focused. But ND should win... by 10.
    
    And I saw that Miami of Ohio game... don't understand it. ND must
    owe someone bigtime to schedule them.... (Must be because it's Ara's
    alma mater 8^).
    
    Yo Dave McNeil, brang home a Irish victory vs 'SC... Don't jinx us
    now and git me a Lou Holtz Halloween mask at the Bookstore so's I can
    wear it fer the Navy debac...er game..
    
    MikeL
    

    	BYU vs. ND
    
    	As Denny Rieu used to say "It's too bad somebody has to win!"
    
    				/Don

	This just off the sports wire....


	Ron Powlus re-injured his shoulder while throwing a pass
	in practice yesterday...he is now officially out for the
	entire year.

	Looks like McDougal is the man...

	Dave

    Wow,
    Powlus re-injured his shoulder while throwing? Long term, I hope this
    mends OK.  Doesn't sound too good when that type of injury reoccurs
    so easily. Hope he don't turn out to be brittle cuz there's the
    franchise supposedly.
    
    And I would have been surprised if Powlus replaced McDougal at all.
    Unless McDougal was out and out putrid. That's too bad. Powlus
    woulda been a great back-up for the remainder of the year.
    But I like McDougal. I got confidence in his ability. And more
    importantly, he believes in himself with 7 games under his belt.
    
    Any more news Dave??
    
    MikeL
    

    
    	
    	Does any ND fans know what time the kickoff is for the
    	FSU game on Nov 13th. 
    
    	Thanks,
    	Dave.

    Yassir,
    
    Gametime is 1:30 PM EST. Kegtime is whatever time you tap it!
    
    MikeL
    

 I don't know what I'm looking forward to more, the game or Lou's pregame
 sandbaggin'

 mike    

    Don't forget USC and Navy first. The Irish can't afford to(well at
    least USC).
    
    Give it up Tommy. You must be a glutton for punishment. I been
    dope slappin' ya all over this conference regarding this topic.
    You tryin' to get off the canvas more than Chuck Wepner??
    
    Latah,
    MikeL
    
    ND  24
    USC 16
    
    

    	I don't know Tommy, if Lou is ever going to reach the sandbagging
    pinnacle this game could be it.  What are the odds that he uses the
    "Rudy" analogy when comparing his awesomely talented Notre Dame squad to
    the comparably talented Florida State squad?
    
    				/Don

    The new 24-hr sports station here carries the Lou Holtz show every
    Tuesday.  I tuned in for about 5 minutes this week and thought I was
    gonna gag.  

    Lou is definitely a paranoid act (and ah do mean act)
    
    Lemmee tellya, the only thang I disagree with ND regarding scheduling
    is the continuous Navy games. A one game series with Army and home and
    home with Air Force is fine, as long as they keep it at an occasional
    match. 
    Now they scheduled Vandy for a home and home. Why?? Former ND
    All-America (and me ex-floormate, a truly effervescent guy) Gerry
    DiNardo is their haidcoach. A-course, Alabama, Tennesssee, Auburn
    Florida and such play the Commodores also, but no one mentions
    that because their *conference* games. Kinda like FSU with Duke, Wake
    Forest, etc. 
    BTW Vandy had a good team
    the last coupla years, only this year is poor.
    
    Let's put this to bed. You forget the OSU's, Michigans, Washingtons,
    Texas, USC, MSU's on the schedule. And ND's "weak" teams are Div 1A.
    You have not yet faced the fact that FSU's past schedules included
    Div1AA schools, a disgrace. Noiw that FSU joined a conference( if they
    had cojones, they woulda joined the SEC) and all of a sudden, they
    get *respected* opponents throughout their schedule. Bah..
    
    MikeL
    

    Sorry,
    Don't agrre at tall. You haven't admitted the facts staring you\in the
    face... Div 1AA opponents. Only reason they're still not there
    is because FSU thigh-shudderingly joined the mighty ACC. Late
    discoveries in life. You're only bleating cuz FSU has a real tough
    schedule this year non conference. Their conference games look
    real cake to me. And they're "locked in". Maybe, with the past
    rep of the ACC, they might occasaionally run into a "tough"
    ACC opponent. And if they run into a few hot ACC teams, watch
    'em drop UF or UM like a hot potato as I pointed out. Bottom line...
    FSU took the easy way out in joining the ACC. Shamed into joining
    that conference because it disgracefully scheduled Div1AA's and
    got no respect. You know what?? They didn't deserve any respect.
    And we'll see if FSU continues to manhandle the ACC down the road.
    Will they deserve respect? Jury's still out.
    
    Your whole beef is the fact that ND *chooses* its schedule as an
    independent and you see some easy wins... no kidding. I do too
    (I think!). Does ND schedule a suicidal schedule No! But neither does
    anyone else. FSU's schedule now has built-in weak opponents. But
    when they were an independent, FSU scheduled real weak sisters.
    Facts don't lie. Look 'em up. 
    
    ND don't duck anyone(including the military academies!). FSU was
    shamed into dropping its Div1AA closet skeletons.
    
    Onward to USC!
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

Florida St joining the ACC has been mutually beneficial. The league wins
in the terms of increase prestige, money, etc., from football. FSU wins
in terms of its hoops team.

One can only hope that the league steps up in football the same way FSU
has done in basketball.

TTom

    
    Rommy & Mikel,
    
    	Shaddap already!  FSU and ND play each other this year.  It
    	appears they are the cream of the crop.  What more could you
    	ask for!?  Sheesh....
    
    	And BTW, Air Force inhales pond water this year but have been
    	competitive about the last ten.  They were even a top 10 one
    	year.  
    
    Claybone

>    	... What more could you
>    	ask for!?  Sheesh....

How 'bout them playing on New Year's Day?

Alabama looks like a notch down but will probably play the winner of the
FSU-NU game. The loser will probably get a consolation prize and be
allowed to beat up on Nebraska.

TTom

    MikeL,
    
    Agree 100% on your analysis of FSU.  FSU didn't have the guts to join
    the SEC.  The SEC has the TOUGHEST football conference period. 
    Basketball is no slouch either being consistently ranked in the top 5
    conferences in the country.  FSU didn't want to have to play the
    Bama's, Gator's, Vols, Bulldog's, Tigers, et al on a consistent basis. 
    Much easier to maintain national prominence piling up wins against
    Duke, NC State, Wake Forest, etc. in the mighty ACC.
    
     - Bob

 Wait a minute there MikeL. If I recall the year they won the MNC they
 ducked a rematch against Miami to play a weak but undefeated West Virgina
 squad. Many Miami fans still wonder why we didn't get a first down?

 mike

    A guy gets into ND with a HS GPA of 1.77, makes the football team with
    little to no atheletic ability, suits up for a game his senior year
    because some seniors graciously decline to suit up, and they make a
    movie about him.

     
       Thanks alot Mac.
    
    
    
    
           Now ya ruined the movie for me.
    
    
    Chappy

had to do something to counteract "Under the Tarnished Dome"....

                                                              
>    A guy gets into ND with a HS GPA of 1.77, makes the football team with
>    little to no atheletic ability, suits up for a game his senior year
>    because some seniors graciously decline to suit up, and they make a
>    movie about him.
    
    I must admit that I was a bit disillusioned to learn that this Rudy guy 
    has been trying to peddle this movie to Hollywood from almost the
    minute that he got out of school.  Kinda takes the luster off the
    "for personal pride and gratification only" angle of it...
    
    glenn
    

    	Yeah Glenn, but Knute Rockne and Holtz would be proud of such a
    self serving attitude...
    
    				/Don

    
    They had a real ND player on the radion here a couple weeks ago talking
    about Rudy.  Basically, the guy was a pain in the ass to everyone, and
    *not* all that popular with the other players.  I guess he hounded
    everyone in order to get to play.  Apparently, getting the movie done
    was very similar to his football career.
    
    brews  

�Apparently, getting the movie done
�    was very similar to his football career.
    
    The folks he approached (and who finally gave in) were the ones who did
    Hoosiers and told him that not only didn't they want to do another
    Indiana sports movie, but they HATED Notre Dame.

    
    
    
    
    Clay is right, enuf's enuf. People take ND to task because, as an
    independent, it chooese its schedules. Other teams (like newly re-born
    FSU) are in conferences and the onus supposedly not on them becuae
    they are "lockesd in" to a conference schedule. Every conference
    has its patsies. Purdue, NWestern, Duke, Wake, etc. No one takes the
    conference members to task. Why? cuz they're built in conf foes.
    BS. You *choose* to join a conference, right??!!
    
    As an independent, both Miami and FSU scheduled weak Div1AA sisters.
    Facks is facks. Now thay thet both *manfully* joined huge football
    powers, the Big East and ACC, all of a sudden they've got *monster*
    schedules.  Now I know the reasoning TTom, and I don't disagree
    with the financial reasons. But for people to pound their chests
    in pride because their fav teams joined a conference is weak.
    Both Miami and FSU will be the giants of their conference for years
    and years in football. In-conference foes for the most part are
    *cake* Take a look back to these college's schedules when they were
    independent. For the most part, excepting one year maybe, nothing
    to speak of. And now? Most of their conference foes are cake.
    Same thing.
    
    After this note, no more on schedules. 
    
    
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    >> You haven't admitted the facts staring you\in the face... Div 1AA 
    >> opponents.

>>>       A patsy is a patsy is a patsy. Whether it's Division 1AA Georgia
       Southern or Division 1 Army.

    You're omitting the fact that ND has exactly *one*game schedule with
    Army. I've already stated that ND should do the same with Navy.
    And never mind the flood of West Carolinas, Tenn-CXhattanoogas,
    East Carolina, Western Michigans, Furmans, Ga. Southerns, FSU
    now gets Dukes,Wake Forests,NCStates, UNC ad nauseum while
    Miami gets the Temples, Rutgers, Va Techs, etc. 
    It all means the same. Nobody has a schedule rife with monsters,
    everybody has supposed "easier" gamers on their schedule
    
    >> You're only bleating cuz FSU has a real tough schedule this year non 
    >> conference. 

>>       Their non-conference schedule isn't a whole lot different than it's
>>       ever been. 

    Whoa!! They've been in a conference for what Two years?? As an
    independent, their schedule sure was different. See above-mentioned
    teams. And yup, I'm consistent. Kudos for the Miamis and UF's
    
      >> watch 'em drop UF or UM like a hot potato as I pointed out. 

  >>     Drop UM? Like ND did? Ha!

    Not so fast... How do you know? I didn't like it, but I believe it
    was mutual as Childsey pointed out. BTW why would ND drop Miami
    if they had played competetive games in '88, 89 and 90?
  
    
      >> Bottom line... FSU took the easy way out in joining the ACC. 
    >> Shamed into joining that conference because it disgracefully 
    >> scheduled Div1AA's and  got no respect. You know what?? They 
    >> didn't deserve any respect.

    >>   They joined the ACC for financial reasons. I'd venture to guess
    >>   their basketball program generates a hell of alot more revenue now
    >>   than it ever did. And they got plenty o' respect to the the tune of 
         consistent top 5 rankings.
     
    I know all this, but is it cause to point to their *in-conference*
    schedule as bolstering its "tough" schedule. Ah don't think so.
    What's the average margin of victory over these so-called conference
    foes?? 30somethin.  BTW, I believe thios was a sound decision as TTom
    pointed out. But understand the fallout. If you're talking only
    bollocks, ya shoulda joined the SEC (football speaking)
    
    >> Your whole beef is the fact that ND *chooses* its schedule as an
    >> independent and you see some easy wins... no kidding. I do too
    >> (I think!).
        ^^^^^^^^

  >>      I know, you'll be fretting over Air Force and the rest of them
  >>      98 pound weaklings. Please. 

    Yo, as Clay points out, watch dem Falcons!
    
    >> Does ND schedule a suicidal schedule No! 

  >>     Bold statement there, Mikey. What with that tough gotta-be-focused-for
  >>     BYU team on yer schedule. And a glimpse at the future schedules that
  >>     I posted leaves a lot of room for argument. Ha!

    Didn't hear boo when FSU and Miami scheduled the BYU's and MSU's.
    Schedule has its good share of top teams as well. me bucko.
    
    >> But neither does anyone else. FSU's schedule now has built-in weak 
    >> opponents. But when they were an independent, FSU scheduled real weak 
    >> sisters.

   >>    Were/was/when. You're not only dealing with the past but with the
   >>    distant past. Read my lips, "The toughest schedule in the country
   >>     3 of the last 5 years." 
    
     No, is/has/will be. Who are you kiddin' Read my statement. FSU's
    schedule has built-in weak (CONFERENCE) opponents. And always will.
    Nature of the beast. OK I'll whitewash FSU's ungloried past if
    you want. And who the hail voted them 3 outta the last 5 years?
    The Tallahassee Press? What a joke. 
    
    
   Latah,
    MikeL
    

    This Rudy sounds like a royal pain in the butt, huh??
    
    Saw an interview with Ara. He said Rudy was extremely persistent..
    Coded words maybe?/
    
    And I have no idea what his grades were. All I read was that he spent
    two years at Holy Cross Jr College in South Bend and was admitted
    to ND as a junior in 1974. 
    Awww, let it go and go see the movie if ya want to rag on Rudy.
    Sheesh.
    
    MikeL
    

    Ah,
    USC weekend. The most consistent heated rivalry that ND has.
    ND's biggest rival.
    
    True, USC doesn't show a great team this year, but as an emotional
    participant in this series (fan-wise), no other team instills
    fear into the Irish heart. Any booster of either team knows what
    I mean. Throw out the records and team strengths and weaknesses,
    I've witnessed too many strange upsets over the years.
    This game will be a war.
    Never mind that 'SC has only beat Houston, the two Oregons and
    somebody else. They always come to play vs. ND.
    
    Logically, 'SC will have to rely on the pass to move the ball
    against ND. Their rushing attack, while it has picked up, has
    not been consistent.
    
    ND should be able to move via the ground. 'SC's pass defense is strong,
    but if the Irish establish the running attack, it'll loosen up
    the SC pass defense.
    
    Even so
    ND  24
    USC 16
    
    MikeL
    
    

	Found this in Mark Blaudschun's National College Notebook in 
    today's Globe...

"One of the reasons Notre Dame coach Lou Holtz is disliked by some members 
of the media is that he is always poor-mouthing his team.  Listener's to 
Holtz' weekly conference call before tomorrow's game against Southern Cal 
were treated to the usual cry that Notre Dame is not a very good team, is 
certainly not the No. 2 team in the country and that USC is indeed a tough 
opponent.  All might be true to some extent, but people are tired of 
hearing the same old refrain, especially when Notre Dame is unbeaten and 
playing as well as it has in the past several weeks.  It would be nice to 
hear a coach say, "We're pretty darn good, and if somebody is going to beat 
us, it's going to take a lot of work."

	While the Golden Domers will certainly not have the easy time they 
had last week against BYU, with halfbacks and fullbacks stiff-arming defensive 
lineman and sending them turfward, USC shouldn't be all that difficult 
either.  This talented crew might actually have to break sweat while 
hammering the Trojans 42-10.

		    		/Don

 geez Mike do you have to rub it in by sandbaggin too??? it'll be 11 counting
 after saturday....I'm so confident I gave up the 14 and took ND on the card..

 like Denny says "I hate the Cowboys but I love money" if you get my drift...

 mike

    Oh, I dunno about sandbaggin'...
    
    The same Mark Blaudschun, after lambasting Holtz (btw I agree with
    him, Holtz' act wears thin even to this alum), he goes on to
    pick USC straight-up, without the points.
    
    So careful with yo' money there mikey!!
    
    GO IRISH
    
    24-16
    
    MikeL
    

�    And I have no idea what his grades were. 
    
    If you were paying attention you would.  The 1.77 I put in an early
    reply was straight from the horse's mouth.

    I paid attention mate.
    
    There's no way in hell he coulda gradiated from ND with a 1.77.
    2.0 is minimum ( and no ah didn't skirt with that number!!).
    Now if'n you mean 1.77 and then he was admitted?? Then Under
    the Tarnished Dome was right.. lowering their standards to
    obvious football talents. Despicable!
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

�    I paid attention mate.
�    
�    There's no way in hell he coulda gradiated from ND with a 1.77.
    
    No, you didn't.  I said he gradiated HS with a 1.77.

    Gee Mac,
    
    Now are you going to shame me into admitting that I pay attention
    to half of your notes half of the time?  8^)
    
    After HS, I heard Rudy went into the Navy, then tried to get into
    ND. He was refused admittance and got accepted to Holy Cross
    Jr. College (dat I know is a fack). I guess his grades at HC JC
    and his pestering got him into ND for a trial one semester.
    And the rest is history..........
    
    I gotta catch this movie. I don't really know why though..
    
    MikeL
    

    I thought USC had a good shot of beating ND this weekend, straight up. 
    They should beat the spread easily.  Especially now that they announced
    that McDougall will not play.

    Really?
    
    McDougall will not play? Did they say why?
    
    MikeL
    

    He was hurt in the last game and hasn't taken a snap in practice all
    week.  Their super-Frosh is also out for the year.  Some Paul L.
    (Polynesian sounding name) is gonna start.

    Now that I think of it, I wonder if the announcement should be
    "McDougal will not START"
    
    
    I knew he was nursing an injury, thought not to be serious, but
    Holtz alluded to the fact that he hadn't practiced as of Tuesday.
    And ND has some rule that if you don't practice by...(Wed? Thurs?)
    you don't start. Same thing happened to Bettis vs Penn St last year.
    
    Of course, the injury maybe more serious or it could be
    academics-related(altho McDougal has no history of academic problems).
    
    Oh well, good luck Failla!
    
    MikeL
    

    Thanks Mike,
    
    Now it makes sense (the report, not ND's "rule").
    
    MikeL
    

                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 35.307                     NOTRE DAME SPORTS                     307 of 329
CNTROL::CHILDS "thems that die are the lucky ones"    6 lines  22-OCT-1993 08:40
                  -< Jesus did the rosary twice that day... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> Wait a minute there MikeL. If I recall the year they won the MNC they
>> ducked a rematch against Miami to play a weak but undefeated West Virgina
>> squad. Many Miami fans still wonder why we didn't get a first down?
                                           ^^
    
    Uhhhh, huh huh huh-huh-huh... Wot's this "we" bidness, eh??  I thunk
    you were a Trojan feign?? BTW, ND took on the top rated undefeated
    team that year. Don't forget that Miami in '87 did not take up
    the gauntlet and take a rematch with peaking FSU that year. And
    they shouldn't have... Same thang..
    
    BTW wif this admittance you should be "fired" as a_honorary USC
    feign. What a supporter of a fine school like USC is doing affiliating
    hisself with the likes_a_the_canes is beyond me. Yeah, "FIRED",
    Heh Heh Heh-Heh-Heh. (er sorry, A co-worker of my wife has
    lent us a tape_a Beavis and Butthaid. Truly decadent)
    
    Oh, Go Failla and Irish, dump USC!!
 
    
    MikeL
    

 Well I knew someday Miami would be in the Big East so I just kinda adopted
 them as a favorite team too. Naturally the hurtin' they was puttin' on
 ND in the early 80's had nothin' to do with it....

 Backup QB pounds USC? Shame on yourself for sandbaggin'...

 Why in the promos for 11/13 FSU feature Charlie Ward but ND features that
 little sandbaggin' scalewag???

 mike
     

    But, but, but ah wasn't sandbaggin' honest!!
    
    Reason Lou was smiling at the end of the game wuz because ND (with
    help from SC adjustments and Lou's crafty conservative play in order
    not to give BB too much of a peek!) looked outta sync in the 2nd
    half.... meaning that Lou has his motivating tool agin the Middies!
    
    McDougal and Fialla will probably split the Navy game with McDougal
    still #1 QB.
    
    MikeL
    
    P.S.
    Dave McNeil will provide trip report!!
    

    
    Yabbut one of da fella's in my department took his family to see Ruby
    yesterday.
    
    Based on what he told me, it might qualify as a "Cindy Movie", perhaps
    1 box worth......
    
    I remain,
    wondering what the all-time #1 Cindy movie is anyway?  Brian's Song?
    Kev
    

    Ruby??
    
    Someone done a movie about Ruby McIntyre?
    
    8^)
    
    MikeL
    

    	No big surprise, Notre Dame's second team could've probably beat
    Southern Cal.  The only team ND plays this year that can match it's
    awesome talent is FSU.
    
    				/Don

From:	US1RMC::"[email protected]" 25-OCT-1993 11:27:57.80
To:	vaxmkt::robichaud
CC:	
Subj:	thanks

For posting it.  FSU has been destroying folks, playing
a tough schedule.  Woe are the Irish, who are playing
way above dere haids.  Only hope for the Irish is
if the weather turns cold and maybe sleet or snow,
and all the ghosts rise up.  Only place the Irish
have an advantage is that Holtz is a better big game
coach them Bobby B., and the Irish band is a better 
group than the Seminoles marching musicians.  

Tom Brett has a better chance than the Irish do.  Woe
is them.  They are slower and smaller and less 
experienced than that collection of high-caliber USA
all-americans that FSU has.  

To win, this will be one for the gipper and the storied
past of ND.  A miracle is needed to stop the FSU
juggernaut.

JD

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Slashermain,

Warn JD that it's been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Florida St
does *NOT* play a tough schedule. Until we start to see Navy added and
BYU substituted for Miami, no one can make such a prepostorous claim.

And remember, supposedly we heard the lasted on this subject for our
buddy MikeL. Excepted that there was some indirect slur directed over in
ACC.

In any case, this is how they say "Finis". FSU never did and never will
have the type of schedule ND is forced to endure.

TTom

    Is Brett running for mayor of Boston?
    

right, Brett is running for Mayor of Boston and is behind by 13-20% in
the polls (depends on which poll). One week to go before the election.

The Crazy Met

    No, George's brother is *Ken* Brett...
    

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    
    Remember I made_a_oath, no more on FSU's schedule cuz we all know
    they've endured mo' merde than mah old main did shoveling 20' of
    snow afore he went to school. Jest look at those ACC foes for
    proof. No mas, no mas, I concede HAHAHAHA.
    
    GO IRISH, scuttle Middies!
    
    MikeL
    
                        

you're talkin' to an ND fan and you expect logical thinking????

The Crazy Met

    No more on FSU's schedule, promise...
    
    Now ND's schedule... no inconsistency. Series with Navy stinks.
    Should be cancelled/changed. One game every 5 or 10 yrs.
    We could replace them with Duke or Wake, cuz they're certifiable
    tough teams...
    
    Whoops, my mistake. I totally forgot they were on an unmentionable
    team's schedule. But I cain't talk about that...
    
    
    Speakin' of Navy. Anyone catch theur new road unis?? White jersey
    with "NAVY" emblazoned o it wif blue pants. Kindas chic.
    
    Hey, if anyone spots a rabid ND fan in the third deck at the Vet with
    A Lou Holtz mask on, dat's me... 
    
    MikeL
    

   
 �   Hey, if anyone spots a rabid ND fan in the third deck at the Vet with
 �   A Lou Holtz mask on, dat's me... 
  
Cain't they treat rabies wif a shot these days?

================================================================================
Note 35.260                     NOTRE DAME SPORTS                     260 of 347
CTHQ::LEARY "Corporate Telecom Technology Solutions" 27 lines   4-OCT-1993 15:08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    FSU has a tougher schedule than ND this year period. 

    Exactly. I've admitted that from the start.
    
    FSU has a tougher schedule than ND this year, period.
    Meaning this year ONLY!!!!!!!!
    
    You conveniently left out the remaining 26 lines of that note
    and many other notes
    
    Capice??
    
    MikeL
    

And you conveniently ignore your own pledge. Evidently, you can't let the
FSU schedule thing drop.

But here's a tip: I'm not arguing with you or for you.

TTom

    
    One mo' thing.
    
    No sandbaggin'
    
    ND's gonna whup FSU's ass on Nov 13. BB's gonna wish he missed
    wide right to Miami cuz ND'a gonna send him back to Tallahassee
    with his tail between his dadgum bowlegged Alabaman rebel laigs.
    
    And then thew Irish are gonna smack BC upside the haid and somehow
    meet Miami for the MNC. And they're gonna sene dem SugarCanes
    back on the sloboat back to Coral Gables. You won't see Erickson
    "sending no message" to ND unless it's "NO MAS"
    
    GO IRISH, CRUSH NAVY!
    
    MikeL
    

    
    -1, Ah I feel better!
    
    

	From my favorite Globe writer Mark Blaudschun...

	"Notre Dame has one game remaining before its November 13th meeting 
with top-ranked Florida State.  The unbeaten second-ranked Irish will play 
Navy in Philadelphia tomorrow, and naturally, Irish coach Lou Holtz is 
worried.  'We're not a very good football team,' said Holtz this week.  
'The last four years we have not been able to run the ball very well 
against Navy.'  Somehow the Irish have managed to win, however, by scores 
of 38-7, 38-0, 52-31 and 41-0.  Holtz is so worried about Navy that he said 
the Midshipmen would be in a bowl this season.  Only problem is that to get 
to the six-victory minimum total, Navy must beat Notre Dame.  So I guess 
you could say Holtz is predicting a Navy victory..."

I thought that one of the academy teams went to the Liberty Bowl. My
understanding that this bowl is not part of the coalition and exempt from
the minimum standards. 

In any case, Louisville has accepted a bid to play in the Liberty. Funny
thing is that we're not even in the same month as the legislated date for
when invitations can go out.

TTom

    "Anchors away, Coach Lou
     Anchors away!"

One of the service academies goes to the Liberty Bowl -but only under certain
conditions; I don't recall what they are. This is meant to prevent a 4-6 team
or such in that Bowl.

The Crazy Met

I caught a couple of clips of ol' Lou. Classic!

Best I can figger, ND has been extremely lucky to ever win any games
against anybody. And Lou has a litany of of complaints about his team.
We're not talking no amateurish poormouthing like Heiser and the Suns.
This here's a professional.

He managed to cast aspersions on the entire team: offense, defense,
specialty, more offense and defense, kicking. 

He ended it all by saying that he'd gladly settle for a 1 point victory.

TTom

> He ended it all by saying that he'd gladly settle for a 1 point victory.

which could very well land him at #3 in the polls. That is if NU and OSU
romp.

The Crazy Met

    	If Lou is right the only reason Notre Dame hasn't lost is due to
    his coaching abilities...
    
    				/Don

    >We're not talking no amateurish poormouthing like Heiser and the Suns.
    
    that's not what you said offline.  Better be careful cuz I still have
    the mail message ;-)
    
    It's amusing in here.  Whether you go all out in supporting your team,
    present a realistic view of them, or poormouth your team, it all
    receives the same treatment.

Actually he often gets around to badmouthing his own self.

I've heard make a lot of comments about his inability, especially around
his not knowing what to do cause the teams so bad.

But in most cases like this, there's usually another agenda. Like Knorr
belittling the Heels - I almost said 'his' Heels ;-( - so we'd all think
what that Dean coaches good. 

Prevention of crow eating is often another motivation, it would seem.

TTom

�    present a realistic view of them, 
    
    In the rare instances where this occurs in this forum, I don't recall
    seeing anyone take any flak for it.

    >�    present a realistic view of them, 
>    
>    In the rare instances where this occurs in this forum, I don't recall
>    seeing anyone take any flak for it.

    BZZT!  Wrong, but thanks for playing.

    I presented a realistic evaluation of the Suns last week and was
    accused of poormouthing.

    
>> He ended it all by saying that he'd gladly settle for a 1 point victory.
>
> which could very well land him at #3 in the polls. That is if NU and OSU
> romp.
    
    Hey, TCM, you getting sucked in by Lou or something?
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    	The winner of the "Commander in Chief's" trophy (typically
    	whichever service academy whups the other 2) gets to go to
    	the Liberty Bowl.  However, they have to meet other criteria
    	before being allowed to attend.  I'm not sure but I think they
    	have to have at least 6 victories against 1A opponents.
    
    Claybone

The contract between the service academies and the Liberty bowl ended
this year. The Liberty officials have picked Louisvelle aginst the
5 place team in the Big 10. 

Jeff 

    
    I listened to parts of the ND game Sat. as I was driving around town,
    doing some errands.  At halftime, the announcers were using ND's
    pitiful performance as justification as to why ND should be playing
    Navy.  I had to pull off the road, I was laughing so hard.  We are
    talking about a NAvy team with a 240lb DE.
    
    In other ND sports news, on Tues, the 14th-ranked ND women's
    volleyball team was pasted by the 17th ranked ASU women, led by Lianne
    Simmons (whose sister & b-i-l are on my Friday night team).  ND's
    formerly high ranking is a great example of the Eastern bias in these
    rankings.  There are JC teams in California that could beat ND>
    
    brews
    
    

    Lou musta given some halftime speech, eh?
    
    This time ND fans can at least point to the first half and say that Lou
    weren't sandbaggin'.

    Ugly first half, huh??!!
    
    Actually Holtz said that all he told the team was that they had 30
    minutes to undo what they just did in the first half.
    
    Some of the team's seniors asked the coaches to leave the room for
    a few minutes at halftime for a leetlew "chat" among themselves.
    300 lb OT Aaron Taylor (und capitain) was rumored to be da preacher
    and butt kicker. Hope the 2nd half team shows up vs FSU.
    
    MikeL
    

    I'm beginning to wonder if Holtz' ridiculous over-compensation in these
    phony attempts to motivate his team isn't having a reverse effect in these 
    low-level games.  Obviously no one takes the stuff seriously, probably 
    least of all his players, but there's always truth in the adage that you 
    at least have to show up for the game regardless of the opponent, and 
    perhaps that simple truth is being partially obscured by the Lou's 
    hyperbole.  Notre Dame *has* had way too much trouble than they should 
    have with Northwestern, Purdue, and now Navy (and was pretty sloppy in 
    the Pitt game, too).
    
    Of course, not too many coaches have a better record of preparing and 
    motivating their players in the big games than Holtz, which is more
    important...
    
    glenn
    

>    In other ND sports news, on Tues, the 14th-ranked ND women's
>    volleyball team was pasted by the 17th ranked ASU women, led by Lianne
>    Simmons (whose sister & b-i-l are on my Friday night team).  ND's

    
    ND has only played one 60 minute game this year, IMO... Michigan
    St. I ain't sandbaggin either. They haven't had to and have been
    playing to the level of their weakler opponents (NU, Pitt, Navy)
    into the 2nd half. And those opponents who were supposed to
    provide tough games (or at least somewhat of a battle) like USC,
    Stanford and BYU, were basically out of it by halftime.
    ND has looked sloppy in several games and I have no idea how they
    will do in a tough matchup like FSU.
    
    They need that challenge..and they'll get it vs FSU.
    They'll be ready.
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

 >            <<< Note 35.374 by 16421::HEISER "visualize whirled peas" >>>                     
 >   -< who cares about sissy sports... >->    In other ND sports news, on
 >   Tues, the 14th-ranked ND women's>    volleyball team was pasted by the
 >   17th ranked ASU women, led by Lianne>    Simmons (whose sister & b-i-l
 >   are on my Friday night team).  ND's
    
    Great, one team at your school is doing better than expected, and you
    slam them.  At least they ain't choking away like the others.
    
    brews

    brews,
    
    I heard that ND's women Vball team was supposed to be decent, but
    didn't know they was 14th. Jeez, if ASU whomped on them, imagine
    what the beach teams in LaLA ville woulda done!
    
    BTW, is there a heavy Eastern (if you want to categorize ND as Eastern)
    bias in the Vball rankings? I woulda thunk the opposite was true.
    
    MikeL
    

    	Notre Dame's win against Michigan doesn't quite look like the
    miraculous coaching job it was played out to be now.  And did some
    announcer really say that Notre Dame is OVERachieving?
    
    				/Don

>    Great, one team at your school is doing better than expected, and you
>    slam them.  At least they ain't choking away like the others.
    
    You're mistaken if you thought that was a slam at my school.

    Yabbut,
    Slash it was a mastahful coaching plan don't ya see; especially
    after the Irish had stumbled and bumbled their way over Northwestern.
    Lou done laid bare the approach to beat Michigan for all to see.
    All MSU (and datcoaching genious Perles), Wisconsin, and Illinois
    had to do was read the script!! But who said it was miraculous?
    At th time, surprising.. cuz I certainly underrated ND.
    
    Which announcwer says ND is overachieving?
    
    MikeL
    

  >   BTW, is there a heavy Eastern (if you want to categorize ND as
  >  Eastern) bias in the Vball rankings? I woulda thunk the opposite was
  >  true.
    
    VERY heavy Eastern (in VB Colorado is east) bias.  ASU is a middle of
    the PAC 10 team, and had no problem with ND.  The coaches vote on the
    Top 20, and outside of their own conference, don't see much of each
    other.  What that does is inflate the rankingsd of the mid-western
    teams.  If more midwestern teams had the balls to play the westcoast
    teams, you'd see them fall in the rankings.  Hey, at least the ND
    Volleyball team scheduled some west coast teams.
    
    It gets worse in the tourney.  Volleyball still splits team purely by
    geography.  So you can see someone like a Springfield College (mens
    side) make it to the Final 4, while a Long Beach State, who would beat
    Springfield in 3 straight, never giving up more than 10 points, sits.
    
    brews 
    
      

    ...maybe Lou thinks he's coaching the Bengals or Patriots.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    Well ol' Lou is a-blusterin' already.
    
    He's waxing apoplectic 10 days before the big game. Game tapes of
    FSU makes him ill, his football team is not very good right now,
    no one has been able to play with FSU, he wishes the game was at
    Tallahassee cuz it will be a circus next week at ND, blah, blah.
    I love it. He'll be in a foaming frenzy(publicly) by next Friday.
    
    Holtz flat out said that he thinks that Florida St is the best
    fotball team he's ever seen since he began coaching... Gee, was
    he caught in a rare public honest admission when he said " I'm not
    sure if anyone can beat FSU this year, but I know that our team
    has a good a chance as anyone in the country"  So luigi must believe
    that the Irish are a legit contendah..
    
    Mo' latah,
    MikeL
    

Here's what I could find out about Notre Dame getting points at South 
Bend, along with how they did.

1984:	South Carolina was favored by 2� and won the game, 36-32.

1985:	Southern Cal was favored by 1 and lost, 37-3.

1986:	Michigan was favored by 6� and won but did not cover, 24-23;
	Penn St was favored by 5 and won and pushed, 24-19.

1988:	Miami was favored by 3 and lost, 31-30.

1990:	Miami was favored by 3� and won, 29-20.

TTom

    -1,
    
    1990: Miami might have been favored, but ND won 29-20
    
    Forgot about '86, yeah Penn St and Michigan both hung on for dear
    life. I think PSU won the mythical in the Fiesta, no.
    
    And like I said in another note, Penn St beat ND in '82 at ND and
    were favored. A_course I was there so that swung the scales.
    
    MikeL
    

Right you are MikeL. The Irish did in fact win that game.

But tell  us all about that loss to traditional power, scheduled years in
advance, South Carolina. Not exactly what myths are made from.

TTom

    South Carolina??  We prolly played them 3 o 4 total times.
    
    That was the Faustian era, and the Gamecocks was favored! We
    shoulda scheduled Samford or Tenn-Chattanooga if we wanted wins in them
    days. That's alright, Faust done OK. He's zipping along at Akron
    
    BTW, I want to clear one thing up that ah was wrong about, sniff,
    sniff.
    Seems ah stated that the ND admin fired haid coachTerry Brennan
    in the mid-50's. Not so, he was allowed to fulfill his 5 yr
    contract, but was not renewed, same as Faust. However, the Irish
    handled the case badly with Brennan and learned their lesson
    30 yrs later.
    
    MikeL
    

Then there's that perennial South Carolina powerhouse, Bob Jones University....

 Caught Lou's act last night on ESPN, the sincerity of his remarks about
 FSU convinced me.....

 FSU 55  ND 7

 mike

Lou's been holding forth about one of my favorite subjects, going for the
tie.

Firsted he said that if'n he could tie Florida St he'd do it in a
heartbeat. Yesterday he said he'd go for the win, saying he'd be willing
to roll the dice.

MikeL, what's the latest weather forecast for South Bend on Saturday?

TTom

    
    Lou said he'd go for the tie to set up the rematch in the Fiesta. BS
    He'll go for the win if he's in the position.
    
    Last I heard on the weather was it was supposed to be in the upper 40's
    and sunny. Not exactly anti-FSU weather. Now if this was the
    scheduled ND-Penn St annual, it would be in the upper teens, snowy and
    windy. Mebbe us Irish supporters can pretend it's PSU so's the weather
    will be lousay.
    
    Thought I'd post some of the predictions that ah've gathered,
    not that it means squat. I'll start with the ND mags.
    
    1) Blue and Gold Magazine                    ND   24     FSU   19
    
    2) Irish Sports Report                       ND   24     FSU   20
       (South Bend Tribune)                      FSU  24     ND    17
       Six beat reporters polled                 FSU  24     ND    14
                                                 ND   21     FSU   20
                                                 ND   31     FSU   30
                                                 FSU  27     ND    13
    
    Now us Irish fans gotsta hope that Blue and Gold is agin right,
    having predicted all 9 Irish victories. The Irish Sports Report
    consensus is 6-3 ( predicting losses to Michigan, Stanford, and USC).
    
    3) Beano Cook, ESPN                          ND   24     FSU   14
    
    4) Sporting News                             FSU  30     ND    16
    
    5) Football News              Dry field      FSU  24     ND    13    
                                  Sloppy field   ND   17     FSU   16
    
    6) Chicago Tribune                           FSU  27     ND    26
    
    7) Chicago Sun Times                         ND   24     FSU   21
    
    8) Indianapolis Star                         ND   21     FSU   17
    
    9) Tallahassee Democrat                      FSU  34     ND    18
       Two beat reporters predictions            FSU  38     ND    10
    
    10)St. Petersburg Times     Dry Field        FSU  30     ND    21
                                Sloppy field     ND   21     FSU   17
    
    11)Orlando Sentinal                          ND   17     FSU   16
    
    
    To quote the PA announcer from Woodstock, " You may take this with
    whatever grains of salt you wish."
    
    MikeL
    
    

    Anybody have the advance weather forecast for Saturday?  I agree with the
    writers who are making their prediction contingent on whether the field
    is dry or sloppy.  IMHO ND has virtually no chance if the track is
    fast; a fairly good chance if it's sloppy.
    
    BTW, Bobby Bowden got *exactly* what he wanted last Saturday, with FSU
    playing extremely poorly against Maryland.  He's got their full and
    undivided attention, not to mention a rested Charlie Ward.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Weatherforecast.... Overcat and 40's possible drizzle....
    
    REK

     i don't think that  fsu's game with maryland or  nd's game with
    navy had anything to do with a wake-up call.
    
      bowden done admitted that he's been looking to this game(as well
    as his troops) since Miami. He's watched ND film every week ( so
    much for the ACC comp!).
    
    holtz admitted the same thang ( as well as HIS troop[s). been looking
    to this game since michigan ( so much for ND's rivals unexpected
    futility this year).
    
    MikeL
    
    P.S did y'all know that Bowden and Holtz are friends and have
    tremendous respect for each other?? Known each other ( why Holtz
    even stayed a coupla days at Bowden's house during his honeymoon
    in Fla.) since 1960.
    
    

So MikeL,

How 'bout a leetle contest on the game.

Pick the who wins the FSU-ND game and the score, send it to CTHQ::LEARY
and the closest guess gets a T-shirt.

TTom

    OK, send me yo' picks and I'll send you "Lou Holtz and family, an
    American Ideal." Nice leertle VHS package, warms the cockles of
    me heart
    
    MikeL
    

�    Weatherforecast.... Overcat 
    
    As opposed to overdog, I suppose.

What's game time ?

>                   -< 1:45 EST, NBC coverage begins at 1:30 >-


I've got a woodie already.......
    

    Get the Cheez-Whiz, saw, get the cheez whiz.
    
    JaKe
    
    

    OVERCAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    REK
    
    

       <<< Note 35.409 by USCTR1::KING "Be a MAN, low maintenance!!!" >>>
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That guy in Virginia is REAL LOW maintenance......
    
    

    Actally if you caught Tim Allen on Barbara Waa-Waa lasted night you
    will know what I mean.....
    
    REK

a letter to the editor in today's globe sez notre dame
hasn't played anyone in the top 25 and therefore shouldn't be ranked
no. 2.  
he must mean nobody currently in the top 25, 'cuz i know michigan
was when they played.
is this true?

dr.a

btw:  on good field fsu 38 nd 10
      on bad field  fsu 35 nd 10

    See .351 fer background, dated 10/26.
    
    Ah stand by it.
    
    ND 24    FSU 17
    
    MikeL
    
    And this agin the best college footbal team them Florida backwaters
    ever created (anybody ask Miami how they felt about this?).
    
    
    

    .412
    
    Not sure. Michigan was #2 i believe. Pre-season, there was 6 teams
    ranked in Top 25. Has MSU or USC got back in.
    
    Who does this letter writer suggesat be #2?? Miami?  Tie one on OSU?
    Nebraska (jest curious)?
    
    IMNSHO, ND, if not the best teeam in college foosball, is haid and
    shoulders above the other pretenders.
    
    MikeL
    

    My prediction for the game....
    
    FSU 31   ND 14
    
    REK

    
    Yabbut if'n I'm not misteaken, nexted week doesn't ND play Boston
    College?
    
    Any speculation about a "letdown" by ND for that game?
    
    Mebbe BC could be "spoilers"?
    
    I remain,
    wondering if Eagles migrate?
    Kev
    

    
    BC is at ND on November 20th.  ND will focus on BC when it's time.
    
    We can speculate all we want; but ND will be ready. 
    I've already heard some BCers predicting upset. They should focus
    on Pitt, we'll focus on FSU..
    
    MikeL
    

    OK guys'n dolls ( reference to da musical a_course)
    
    The contest is on; please send me mail with your picks so we won't
    clutter up the file and incur the wrath of our Scotsman mod 8^)
    
    CTHQ::LEARY
    
    Danke,
    MikeL
    
    P.S. Pick the score, don't select agin the spread.
    
    

Well should I post mine here cause I already sent it to you?

I have a question of the ::SPORTS rules committee. If you blow a
prediction do you have to eat crow if'n it goes south? I want the whole,
nasty truth, replete with the Heiser Amendment, the TCM Virtual Welsher
Theorem, and the Whiner Sore Loser Adjunct. You know, the whole dang
thang.

I gotsta know what's at stake with this here prediction.

TTom

Well, from my simplistic point of view, if it's part of a contest, NO,
you don't have to eat crow.

Otherwise, King of the Hill would cause there to be a dire shortage
of crow for miles around the epicenter of this notes file.....


'Saw

    
    In memoriam of famous Notre Dame punters like Paul Hornung and the
    immortal one's last words:
    
    	"Cover one for the Gipper"

Thanks for the guidance, Saw.

A couple of more questions about crow. There's two notes. Do you have to
crow in both? What if you crow in the wrong one?

TTom

note 50 is the one TTom.

The Crazy Met

Where I come from, a crow is a crow is a crow.

If'n you're gonna eat crow, to my way of thinkin', it don't much matter
which restaurant you eat it in......


'Saw

Article: 1522
From: [email protected] (JEFF SHAIN, UPI College Football Correspondent)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football.college,clari.sports.top
Subject: Faux paus has leprechaun's Irish up
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 19:11:04 EST
 
Commentary
	His daily ride finished, Chief Osceola had just taken Renegade back
to the stables off the Florida State campus when the phone rang.
	``Hello?''
	``Rock Knutne?!''
	``Huh?'' the Chief said, not sure whether it was a prankster or a
wrong number.
	``Rock Knutne?!'' the voice on the other end repeated.
	The Irish brogue finally gave the caller's identity away. It was
Notre Dame's Lucky Leprechaun, butchering the name of his own legendary
coach.
	``Lucky, just what are you getting at?'' Osceola finally replied.
	``It's incredible. The most famous coach in Notre Dame history -- no,
the most famous coach in college football history -- and your lads can't
even get the name right.''
	Osceola supressed a chuckle. OK, so it was a little embarrassing to
have two of your starters completely mangle Knute Rockne's good name.
Then again, it's always fun to see Lucky's dander get riled up.
	``It's a disgrace, I'm telling you,'' Lucky continued. ``The old
Norwegian's got to be turning over in his grave, bless his soul. Rock
Knutne! Those lads have to learn a little something about Notre Dame
tradition.''
	``OK, OK, so Kez McCorvey and Chris Cowart didn't profess themselves
to be college football historians when they got their syllables jumbled.
Look at the bright side -- at least they didn't try to pronounce Ara
Parseghian.''
	``They probably don't even know who he is. Most of those lads
apparently think Fighting Irish tradition didn't begin until Joe
Montana. Truth be told, Joe Montana wasn't even one of our greatest
quarterbacks. What about Paul Hornung, Johnny Lujack, Angelo Bertelli?''
	``Let's face it, Lucky. Kids today are just not as aware of history
as they should be. Besides, at FSU these kids are more concerned with
making history than reading about it. And the publicity wasn't all bad
for you. Charlie Ward gave NBC a nice plug on his cap before realizing
he was promoting the broadcast home of the Fighting Irish.''
	Lucky couldn't help but laugh at that one. ``Nay, he probably figured
he could do an early promo for his coronation as Heisman Trophy winner.
Will he be ready to go Saturday?''
	``He could have played last week, but Coach Bowden decided to save
those ribs for the pounding your guys will dish out. Provided, of
course, they can catch him. How is the weather, anyway?''
	``Same as yesterday -- a few clouds, temperatures around 50. Haven't
you heard of The Weather Channel? Or don't you lads get cable in
Tallahassee?''
	``Sure we do,'' the Chief replied. ``I just like to get my reports
from somebody on site. I guess Old Man Winter had better get his hip
pads in gear if that Farmer's Almanac prediction of snow on Saturday is
going to be correct.''
	``Forget about it. A chance of showers is about the worst it's going
to get. That's OK, though. A sloppy track doesn't help anybody when it
comes to turnovers. Coach Holtz said the other day he'd just as soon
play with clear skies, no wind and 65 degrees. But I sure wouldn't mind
if the temperature took a dip back into the 40s, just to keep your lads
huddled around those heaters.''
	``Yeah, maybe. But the way temperatures have been rising, we may just
have to bring some more people up to South Bend to make sure the
scalpers get their money's worth.''
	``Have you seen what they're asking?'' Lucky said. ``The price has
dropped a bit, but I hear some tickets went for as much as a thousand
dollars. And you know the worst of it? It's OUR fans selling off their
seats. I thought it would be the warm-weather people who wouldn't mind
trading their tickets to watch the game from the comfort of their living
rooms.''
	``You don't understand. This isn't College Park or Chapel Hill we're
talking about here. It's not very often we Southerners can go up and
beat Notre Dame under the watchful eye of Touchdown Jesus.''
	``That remains to be seen. But I still can't believe our fans would
give up their seats. The biggest game to come around here since the last
time we knocked off Miami and ...''
	``And brawled in the tunnel,'' the Chief interjected.
	``You would have to bring that up,'' Lucky said. ``I'll save one of
those 'Catholics vs. Creminoles' T-shirts for you.''
	``The hype's getting pretty insane up there, huh?''
	``Incredible. The media crunch is so big, we're having to put some
writers in the stands. ESPN is bringing its entire pregame show to town
for Saturday.''
	``You know we've designated this as a 'sod game,' don't you?''
	``Hey, we still want you to return that patch of turf you guys dug up
after beating us here 12 years ago.''
	``No chance,'' Osceola said. ``It's got a prominent place of honor in
our 'Sod Cemetery.' Coach Bowden said that was his proudest moment, to
earn a win under the Golden Dome.''
	``Gerry Faust was coaching us then, so it shouldn't count. Anyway,
you won't be needing that spade this time.''
	``Let me guess -- too much tradition at Notre Dame to let it happen
twice in a row.''
	``Now you're learning,'' Lucky chortled. ``Say, you have any plans
after arriving in town Friday night?''
	``The usual -- pep rallies, booster functions, things like that. What
do you have in mind?''
	``I thought maybe you'd like to go see 'Rudy.'''

That was classic, TTom!!!!!


But, for a little wee bit o' Irish luck:




Cheer, cheer for Old Notre Dame
Wake up the echoes cheering her name!
Send the volley cheer on high,
Shake down the thunder from the sky.
What though the odds be great or small
Old Notre Dame will win over all
While her loyal sons go marching onward to victory!

    OK, 
    
    Here are those who have entered the contest so far
    
    HBAHBA::HAAS
    MKFSA::LONG
    CNTROL::CHILDS
    TNPUBS::ALVEY
    MSBCS::BRYDIE
    CTHQ::LEARY
    USCTR1::KING
    MESTSNY::FRANCUS
    WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M
    DECWET::METZGER
    POBOX::DEGRAFF
    FRETZ::HEISER
    BIGQ::MCKAY
    
    So git your picks in. Cutoff time for entering picks is 1:44 PM EST
    on Saturday the 13th of November.
    
    Latah,
    MikeL
    

    
    	I won't enter this one so ya'll will have a sportin' chance
    	of winnin'.
    
    Claybone

    what is it?
    

egad, that being the prize, cancel my entry forthwith!
how did that scrawny bastid holtz ever get involved
in football anyway?
he's got a physique like, well, me.

dr.a

    It'll be a poster of Lou chewin' on ND stadium sod with the
    scoreboard in the background " ND 24  FSU  17"
    
    And to all those BC idjits who called into WEEI this PM cryin'
    that Holtz would get paid back nexted week fir runnin' up the
    score last year...... HAHAHAHA, go say the rosary with your
    favorite Jebbie.
    
    HAHAHA
    
    ND "monsters" FSU
    

I was hoping the prize would be a photo of the little white rat with his head
caught in a man sized trap with the cheese dribbling out of the corner of his
mouth...

No?


Metz

    >>    ......HAHAHAHA, go say the rosary with your
    >>    favorite Jebbie.
    
    That would be father Daugherty, Theology 101 who missed 2/3 of the
    classes saying rosaries with Sid's friend Jack D.
    
    Way back in 62-63

    Ah bill,
    
    But I did not say or mean all BC people were idjits. Just those maroons
    who called EEI. And I like BC beliueve it or not. And yes, I've
    known ND idjits.
    
    MikeL
    
    Who's said the rosary with his favorite HolyCrosserPadre
    

    If ND beats fsu then bc could catch them sleeping with a big early
    offensive surge causing lou boy to try to catch them in the air, not 
    nd's strong suit.
    
    If nd loses then they will be spoiling to bury bc and probably will. bc
    as well as it has played offensively has let down defensively at every
    opportunity.  bc defensive players have pre-pats-parcell (?PPP) disease
    when it comes to tackling fast runners in the open field.
    
    I saw the "idjit" who gave poor Shawn Halloran the Eason treatment when
    he had the misfortune to follow Doug Flutie (who is still ome of my
    altime favorite athletes if for nothing else his enthusiastic pursuit
    of those (multitude) interceptors of his passes).
    
    Halloran had a great final year and won a bowl game over Georgia for
    which he is very noticably not enshrined a la Charlie O'Rourke a
    household name growing up to match Jimmy Doolittle (a distand relative
    of my son Phil - who nevertheless rudely switched off jd's(*) tribute
    last night on discovery ch to get back to Mario3).
    
    (*) Aheh, Butthead, you said "JD", aheh,hehehehehech

    whats the spread on the BC/ND game??
    
                            stig

	Cheer, cheer for Old Notre Dame
	Wake up the echoes cheering her name!
	Send the volley cheer on high,
	Shake down the thunder from the sky.
	What though the odds be great or small
	Old Notre Dame will win over all
	While her loyal sons go marching onward to victory!



As one of the guys said Saturday, "You can't beat the ghosts".


GREAT game.  One of the best I've seen in a long time, with enough drama,
and excitement, and a nice "photo finish" too.

Of course, watching it with a bunch of Irish fans made it even better.


'Saw

    Based on the size of the difference in the coalition polling, the rematch
    is almost a sure thing now if Notre Dame and Florida St. both take care
    of business.  As I predicted, the coaches came out for Tom Osborne and
    the undefeated record, with two yahoos even voting Nebraska #1 (those
    coaches should be identified, charged with blatant poll-tampering and
    made to defend themselves), but the edge isn't near enough, only 10 
    points against the 77-point difference in favor of FSU in the AP poll.  
    Nebraska still has a chance at the NU-ND Orange Bowl matchup, but only 
    if FSU is lackluster in either the NC State or Florida games and 
    Nebraska is very impressive against Oklahoma.  That's a reasonable 
    possibility.  I guess that nationally-televised day-after-Thanksgiving
    NU-OU classic will have some meaning this year after all.
    
    For my money, there's no argument but that these two teams are
    head-and-shoulders #1-#2 above the rest in college football.  The
    coalition poll result is a sensible one (thanks to the AP).  Once again
    this year, in the absence of a playoff system the polling results may
    not be "fair", but within that flawed system I think this is the
    correct and desired outcome.  
    
    glenn
    

    Cheap intimidation tactics?? Leprechaun dolls?? 
    SORE LOSER.
    
    I thought it was a magnificent game, with the better team winning.
    Unless FSU can throw in their sumo wrasslin' class on both offensive
    and defensive lines, result will be the same in a possible rematch
    
    Read mah lips:: FSU cannot run on ND and they cannot stop the run.
    ND controls bof lines_a_scrimmage. Without Ward, ND manhandles
    the Seminoles.
    
    I think, for the most part, it was a hard, clean game. Of course,
    FSU's defensive backs showed their true classlessness on three
    of ND's four TD's. Nice little shoves in the back well after the
    ND man had crossed the end zone; coulda led to some injuries (at least
    the ACC refs rightfully flagged one of them). Takes a real man to
    shove someone in the back well after the TD has been signalled.
    
    ON to BC!!
    
    MikeL
    
    Oh, regarding the contest;
    
    Billl Long takes the prize (??) with his ND 27  FSU 24 prediction
    (4 pt differential) with Mike Childs and Bill Breen tied fer 2nd
    (ND 29  FSU 27), 5 point differential.
    
    
    

    
    	C'mon Tommy, I don't like ND or Miami but Miami is Taunt
    	University!
    
    	MikeL, you know some idjit ND fans too?  :*)
    
    Claybone

>>    Billl Long takes the prize (??) with his ND 27  FSU 24 prediction

	Prognosticator Extrodinaire!

	Now if I could only remember to enter my picks for pool_93 every
	week...

	re contest:

	Yer not gonna welch on the prize there are you Mr Leary?  Next thing
	you know you'll be tellin' us you're a Mets fan.


	billl

    Ah won't welch... send me yo' mailstop
    
    MikeL
    
    Yo 'bone,
    
    Yeah, I know ND idjits..Now, you said big vs speed. Well ND's big and
    fast (not quite as fast as FSU) but we ain't talking 'Sawlike, Gedman
    imitatin' negative MPH now.....8^)
    
    

�And chanting "Her we go Irish!" for a predominantly
�     black football team has got to be about the dummest damn thing in
�     all of college sports. 
    
    Dumber than a bunch of folks pretending to be American Indians?

If that safety from ND (#9, ferget his name) had hung on to just TWO of
the four possible intys he could have had, it might have been a bigger
win for ND.

ND does have power running, which blew through FSU.

I would have liked to have see the ND coaching staff adjust more when
FSU started stacking the line with 8 guys.  A couple of play action
slant passes might have really opened things up too.


I had to love that All American kicker shoving his first attempt
WIDE RIGHT....8^)   Oh yeah, nice helmet too.....


Bushmills is SMOOTH,
'Saw

    -1,
    Ah ain't gonna comment on the content of that vicious note.
    You belong in the whiney sore loser note.
    
    MikeL
    

    Touche', Mac.  We amateur 'Merican history buffs know that all the 
    real 'Noles are in Oklahoma now...
    
    glenn
    

    Yeah, 
    Scott "wide right" Bentley. Unfair, but just a bit ironic.
    Yeah, he oughta find a better fitting helmet. Loved that
    sign "John 3:16 Wide Right"
    
    MikeL
    

    Last week, while in NYC, I had to hear the New Yawkers ramble that the
    7 point spread wasn't big enough (On WFAN, the Fan).
    
    I go back tomorrow.  I can't wait to hear some crow-eating...  I also
    think that if Number 9 for ND coulda held onto one of about five easy
    INTs or that Lake Dawson held the wide open reception, ND coulda made
    it by 21 points...
    
    It was all Notre Dame...
    
    Chip_BEARS_Bach

    	When I said over a month ago that Notre Dame was the only team with
    the "talent" of Florida State I was admonished.  If you think that was
    an "overachieving" win due to "coaching" then all I have to say is 
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA�  But Notre Dame wants no part of FSU or Miami on a
    neutral field where the Irish's "mystique" isn't evident.  They'll play
    a cupcake Nebraska team (sorry Marty but it's true) and win another
    "championship" while true football fans pine away for a playoff series
    than would crown a "true" champion.
    
    				/Don

>     either but all in all ND was the better team Saturday. I still
>     hate them, though. From their cheap intimidation tactics that 
>     they always pull in the tunnel. To their obnoxious fans clutching
>     those stupid leprechaun dolls. Miami ain't got nothing on ND.
    
    ditto, Tommy.  You forgot all the late hits too that the refs took a
    blind eye to.
    

    Kudos to ND though.  They had a great game plan and executed it to a T. 
    FSU appeared to have been reading their press clippings a little too
    much.  I think FSU wins the rematch here in Tempe.

>    They'll play
>    a cupcake Nebraska team (sorry Marty but it's true) and win another
>    "championship" while true football fans pine away for a playoff series
>    than would crown a "true" champion.                        
    
    Somebody better let the pollsters in on your conspiracy, Slash, and
    fast.  Time is running out for Nebraska...
    
>    If you think that was
>    an "overachieving" win due to "coaching" then all I have to say is 
>    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA�
    
    Hmmmm, so what do we have here?  Before the game FSU was considered to
    have the better talent and Slash and Tommy have assured us they have the
    better coach and as such predicted victory for FSU, yet when they lose 
    the joke is on ND supporters.  Nice spin control, Slash... 
    
    Actually, I'd say coaching played a fair part.  For months we've been 
    hearing about how "Bobby Big'uns" is the superior coach but once again in 
    the big game with the supposed best talent he's come up short ('course the
    experts keep reminding us if "Bobby Big'uns" would actually avoid these 
    championship-caliber showdowns, he might someday con his way into a
    ring outside of the merit system).  Blowden's answer to the dominant 
    physical line play of Notre Dame apparently was scatter-shot trick plays 
    and general nervousness and disarray on offense through the first three 
    quarters, that should have resulted in a much greater turnover disparity 
    than already did result versus the mistake-free Irish.  This is the 
    greatest team of all time?  Maybe they'd be up there amongst the true 
    greats if they could come into a big road game under the tutelage of 
    the so-called "Road Warrior" looking even halfway prepared and composed.  
    Blowden had best show up for a bowl rematch with a better game plan and 
    better preparation than what we saw Saturday.  
    
    Through some great fortune due to how things have worked out this season,
    Blowden's still got a great shot at winning it all based on a season
    split with Notre Dame, but on the other side of the coin Dean Smith's
    ACC title awaits in the balance if he doesn't... 
    
    glenn
    

    re .442
    
    ND 14.5 Boston College
    
    I'll go with /er and will guess that within the next two weeks 
    Nebraska will edge out Fl St for #2 in the combined polls.
    
    The game was a decent one, but certainly not on any all time 
    greatest lists.  ND was in control the entire game and Fl. St
    made a decent comeback to make it close.  I enjoyed it.......
    
    Jimbo

    No way Nebraska deserves that chance, even if they beat Oklahoma (which
    I doubt they will).  They have a weak schedule.  NCAA fans deserve more
    than to watch them go to the Orange Bowl to lose by 2 TD's.
    
    

I had kind of figured that the scripted version of the game would go
something like this:


	ND takes a big early lead.
	FSU comes back to within one with no time left on the clock.
	Bowden decides to kick the PAT to tie (on the road, right).

	Mr. All American Kicker comes in to try the PAT.

	At that point, there's a big ruckus and who enters the
	stadium (spotlights and all) but Rudy.

	The ball is snapped and Mr. All American Kicker shoots the
	PAT.....WIDE RIGHT.


I thought that would've been a perfect Hollywood script.....


But I like the game the way it turned out just fine.


'Saw

PS  No one has mentioned it (I don't think) but Ward did have Frier open
    on the 5.  No saying he would've gotten in, but he was open.

    Nebraska will relieve themselves on Oklahoma at home!
    
    11-0 gets them a shot.  Nebraska matches up well with ND.  
    
    What happens if ND loses to BC?  Will Nebraska be #1 then??????
    
    Jimbo

    Nebraska winning the title would be as big a farce as the year BYU won
    it.  Most of the top 10 would take them out, just like they would've to
    BYU that year.

    C'mon that's a bit extreme.  Nebraska has played a few decent teams.
    When they beat Oklahoma they will have BEATEN 4 top 25 teams.  BYU
    probably PLAYED 1 that year.  If they win it, they will have beaten
    ND or Fl St, who did BYU beat, a 6-4 Big ten stiff.......
    
    

>    probably PLAYED 1 that year.  If they win it, they will have beaten
>    ND or Fl St, who did BYU beat, a 6-4 Big ten stiff.......
    
    I don't think so.  Nebraska will probably face Miami in the Orange.

    Nebraska deserves a chance - FSU already had their chance.
    
    Murph
    

>    Nebraska deserves a chance - FSU already had their chance.
    
  As much as I hate dem guys in red, I gotta agree with the previous note.
  Do I think dem red guys are the best team in the country ? - NO
  "  "   "    "   "   "    "   " 2nd "   "   "  "   "      " - NO

  But I think they earned the right to have a shot at beating dem Irish.
  (assuming they whip that other red team)

  As the last reply pointed out,  FSU already had their chance, ditto Miami.

	Keith    

Good game but I'd love to see a rematch on a neutral field with the grass cut
down to normal levels and the field not heavily watered down...Not kidding...
The FSU players were slipping and sliding all over the field.....

I am very disappointed in the FSU defense, the "big game" coaching of bowden
and the big play decision making of ward....

The FSU defense couldn't tackle my daughter running through our kitchen. Way
too many missed tackles and a real lack of ability to shed the ND blockers (esp
the wide recievers). 

Bowden showed nothing as far as big game coaching ability and failed to make
any halftime adjustments to stop the ND running attack. 

I think Ward made some really poor decisions on throwing the long ball when
they had the short game available all day. Especially on 3rd and short when he 
went for the big play instead of the 1st down.

The FSU defense needs to hit the weight room before the rematch but NFC east
football will win more times than not....The Irish played mistake free and if
they do it again they'll win again...

Metz

                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 21.1058                       ACC Sports                       1058 of 1393
VAXMKT::ROBICHAUD "GoPats. GoToStLouis,Baltimore..."  5 lines   5-OCT-1993 12:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
�   and cover.  The only team that can match FSU's talent is Notre Dame
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	One of the moderators please delete this note so as to conform to 
Waugamain's revisionist history that I never said this.  And I'll stick by 
my statement that Notre Dame will not play either Miami or Florida State 
but will play a much weaker Nebraska team (but no way as bad as the Faux 
BYU champs).  If ND *and* NBC both want something it'll happen.  If #1 and 
#2 play in the Orange Bowl instead of the Fiesta then NBC's preferred 
customer (Orange Bowl) is happy, Notre Dame is happy because of an easier 
road to the title and enough sportswriters will tow the line and write this 
up to be a legitimate matchup to make the masses happy (some have already 
swallowed it), and all this makes NBC very happy.

	By the way, give 5 offensive lineman who will start in the NFL and 
two defensive backs who'll be number one picks in the NFL draft and I'll 
play the Florida State team anywhere, anytime.

�The FSU defense needs to hit the weight room before the rematch but NFC east

	Hey Metz, maybe that team with "mystique" can lend FSU some of 
their steroid cache.

				/Don
                                                                               

> ================================================================================
> Note 21.1058                       ACC Sports                       1058 of 1393
> VAXMKT::ROBICHAUD "GoPats. GoToStLouis,Baltimore..."  5 lines   5-OCT-1993 12:27
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> �   and cover.  The only team that can match FSU's talent is Notre Dame
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    If nothing else, at least your editor is in fine working order, /Don!
    Pray tell what followed this gem of an observation?  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

Cool note Tommy.

One of the offensive tackles is from Berlin, CT.  He was wicked outta shape
when he first reported, but has slimmed down, and pumped up and is pretty
big.

But I have to say the lineman who impressed me the most was #75 for ND.
That young man is MASSIVE, I mean HUGE, and he's quick and fast too.

And his countenance is quite fearful to behold also.....


Whew,
'Saw

    Here it ism two days after the game and most of you jamokes just can't
    give cdredit where it's due. Face it, ND won fair and square, outplayed
    and outcoached FSU. In fack, if ND had not gotten conservative with
    their play calling ( a trait in Holtz that galls me), FSU woulda
    been looking at 38-17 and a trip to palookaville. ND "let" 'em back
    in the game. lucky touchdown and all. If the ND secondary, while
    playing great position, hadn't experienced butterfingerisms, you
    woulda seen Charlie "god" Ward with four or 5 INT's. But ND still
    whupped 'em upside the haid with a combo power football/ pressure
    defense. How can you guys not see (or admit) the two keys to
    the game:  1) ND's runniung attack *cannot* be stopped by FSU
    by normal defensive play. If they try blitzing/stacking the line,
    McDougal passes for 300 yards and it's steel lights out.
    22) FSU cannot, I repeat, cannot run on ND. Their front four
    is too strong and put a lot of pressure on Ward. FSU had 98 yards
    rushing, 40 somefin by Ward. If FSU attacks ND's LB's with play action,
    they could compensate. But the GentleGenius didn't do it.
    Coaching advantage: Big ND.
    
    Now if there is a rematch on any field, ND wins. FSU would have to
    make too many adjusdtments and play outta their element. See keys
    1) and 2)..
    
    ND is in the coalition,, if ND is 1 and FSU is 2, they'll play, no
    ifs, ands or buts. Kinda ironic, though, if ya listen to
    Bowden. If FSU had won, and Miami was #2, Bowden stated that there
    would be no way they would want to play Miami again...
    
    Metz,
    What game were you watching? The field grass was cut real low. The
    ESPN commentators mentioned it on Friday and NBC on Saturday.
    And BTW, it rained in South Bend on Saturday morning so the field was
     still somewhat wet. The FSU equipment manager said the Seminoles
    had the wrong cleats. But ah'm sure it's all a Irish plot.
    
    Hail, what do y'all want? The game was played in mid-November in
    South Bend with balmy 70ish weather? I can just imagine the
    whining if it was a typical 20 degree day.
    
    Someone mentioned cheap shots?? I saw one personal foul on an ND
    guy for hitting out of bounds. Penalty fag, he was wrong. What about
    those shoves in the back by the FSU cornerbacks?? Real cheap.
    
    Yea, we'll give FSU another shot if they want it.. But they'll get
    whupped again. ND's gotta get by BC first. Even if we're not focused
    on it, Holtz will have his team ready.
    
    Excuse-o-meter and whining very high for FSU backers.
    
    MikeL
    

    Now why cain't the rest of ya FSU apologists be a main like Mr. Brydie
    did in his last note. I understand emotionalism, so I know how he
    feels( see Miami-ND '89). 
    
    MikeL
    

   
> we're going to have a hell of a time with Florida and Rhett, who may be the
> best running back in the country (no matter what Glenn regurgitating the Globe
> says). 
    
    I don't know what the hail you're talking about at this point.  I
    haven't regurgitated anything about Errict Rhett or anything about a
    "best running back in the country".  I'd be hard-pressed to select the
    two All-Americas at the position this year.  There's no obvious single
    candidate, even...
    
    As for the outsized lines of FSU, I too agreed that they could have
    problems with a strong running attack, but I wasn't hearing too much
    about that in the predictions last week (hell, I too thought that FSU
    would have enough to win).  I still don't think that Florida matches 
    up that well with FSU because Florida's pass defense is downright
    horrible, but it is a home game and maybe FSU will be distracted, who
    knows.  None of this is coming from the Globe, I swear...
    
    glenn
     

�    Someone mentioned cheap shots?? I saw one personal foul on an ND
�    guy for hitting out of bounds. Penalty fag, he was wrong. 
    
    And did you see Holtz go after the guy?
    
�What about
�    those shoves in the back by the FSU cornerbacks?? Real cheap.
    
    I recall one of those being penalized on the ensuing kickoff.

    
    >>And did you see Holtz go after the guy?
    
    I didn't see the game, cause it weren't an important game er nuthin,
    but was this a Lou "Woody Hayes" Holtz type incident????
    
    JaKe
    

Nah...Holtz was just jawing at the kid for about 5 minutes cause he was so
stupid. Lou don't tolerate stupidity in the middle of an important game...

He probably wouldda gotten a pat on the butt if he'd a done against a Navy
player and they were up 30 points...

Metz

                                    
    For what it's worth, lest I continue to be accused by /Don and Tommy 
    of being just another afflicted wif' retroactive Holtzheimer's disease:
    
    
================================================================================
Note 21.1108                       ACC Sports                       1108 of 1397
NAC::G_WAUGAMAN                                      44 lines  11-OCT-1993 15:56
        -< The onus is on Bowden, win or join Bo Schembechler et al... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    With each passing week the more I think that Beano Cook (and other
    analysts) are absolutely correct that Notre Dame should not be regarded
    as any kind of an underdog in the Florida St. game at South Bend.  Any
    jitters the new ND starters may have experienced early in the
    season have been worked out and there's no doubt but that this is a
    juggernaut of a football team that should be peaking and completely ready 
    for that game.  As Tommy pointed out, Florida St. did show some signs of 
    vulnerability in the Miami game (Frank Costa could be the prototype Penn 
    State quarterback with his well-polished arsenal of weak and inaccurate 
    floaters into defensive coverage, and is the worst QB Miami has fielded 
    since pre-Jim Kelly), and until further notice all this talk of "Greatest 
    Team Ever" should cease and desist.  I think that a team with a bruising
    running game and a strong defense can give FSU a run, and that sounds
    like ND and not Florida to me (regardless of what they did to woeful
    LSU, the Gators' pass defense is extremely suspect).  I think it's
    an even game...
    

    we want a piece of the Irish when they come to Tempe!
    
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A r i z o n a             S t a t e               U n i v e r s i t y
    

    
    Sure ASU doesn't stand for:
    
    
    A$$hole State Univ.????
    
    SOunds about right to me, 'specially if you know who went there. Did he
    get a degree there??  If so, in what, sand weighing????
    
    
    Santa_JaKe
    

>    SOunds about right to me, 'specially if you know who went there. Did he
>    get a degree there??  If so, in what, sand weighing????
    
    Jake, he's got a BA in HR.

    
    >Jake, he's got a BA in HR.
                            ^^
    
    What's that, Human Retardation??????or Horrendous Retard.
    
    Inquiring mindless and all that drap
    
    Santa_JaKe
    

    
   >  Your note endorsing Marshall Faulk as the Pats draft pick was almost 
   >  a verbatim rehash of a Sunday Globe article as I'm sure you well know. 
   >  I think Marshall has been on national tv once and that was *after* your 
   >  note. And that's not just a cheap shot or a response to 35.450 or 50.172
   >  but the truth.
    
    Okay, no cheap shot taken, but in all honesty I have seen nothing in
    the Globe endorsing Marshall Faulk as the Pats' #1 pick.  I don't read
    much of the Pats' stuff anymore.  I did see a brief feature on him a
    while ago mentioning that he was close to breaking the career NCAA
    TD record but I didn't see anything regarding the Pats' or any other
    NFL team's draft intentions.  I *have* seen Marshall Faulk play college
    football in any case.  He's in his third full season, and among other 
    games in past seasons I saw him shred a quality defense like Miami's for 
    200+ yards in a losing effort.  I can't believe that he has personally
    gotten any worse than when he was a freshmen just because an already
    spotty team like San Diego St. has fallen apart around him...
    
    glenn
    

    Why is everyone looking past West Virgina? It WV bets Miami and BC
    doesn't that put them  at 11-0?
    
    REK

    
    >>Why is everyone looking past West Virgina? It WV bets Miami and BC
    >>doesn't that put them  at 11-0?
    
    Cause they're from the "inbred state", where the state song is "I'm My
    Own Grandpa".
    
    Santa_JaKe
    

    Cuz dey ain't beat no one good yet...
    

    but they are stiil underfeated...
    
                stig

    If a team is underfeated are they overrated?

West Virginia's best games were against Louisville and Va Tech both of
whom were in the Top 25 when they played the Mountaineers.

They smeared Syracuse but so has most everybody else.

They could present some problems for Miami's defense and Miami hasn't
shown itself to be the scoring machine that they used to be.

However, Miami loves to smear pretenders so WVU better be on the look out
cause they could get embareassed.

TTom

    	Geez Brydie, what a soccer-like note!  8^(  I believe that sometime
    this week Father Hesbergh and the CEO of General Electric will determine 
    which school is #2 and shall be granted the privilege of playing Notre 
    Dame in an NBC sponsored bowl.
    
    				/Don

    Perhaps ;this is junk material but does anyone know that there was an
    original Lou Holtz who was a stage and vaudeville performer and very
    well know in 20s.
    
    'Saw, you'll have to ask your dad about the original lou h.
    
    As the philandering carpenter said when the husband showed up
    
    "I'd better make a bolt for the door"

    
>    Geez Brydie, what a soccer-like note!  8^(  I believe that sometime
>    this week Father Hesbergh and the CEO of General Electric will determine 
>    which school is #2 and shall be granted the privilege of playing Notre 
>    Dame in an NBC sponsored bowl.
    
    Considering that the TV ratings for the first game shattered the
    post-CFA-lawsuit record, I think it's a pretty safe bet that NBC
    prefers an ND-FSU rematch to ND-Nebraska.  That's unless they're able
    to locate a major media market in the state of Nebraska by Jan. 1...
    
    glenn
    

    Mike Lynch & Co. on Channel 5 were all over Lou's sandbagging act on
    last night's sports report.  Lou actually came out and said that Notre
    Dame is not a good football team.

	Don't hold back, Tommy.  Tell us how you really feel.



	billl

�    Considering that the TV ratings for the first game shattered the
�    post-CFA-lawsuit record, I think it's a pretty safe bet that NBC
�    prefers an ND-FSU rematch to ND-Nebraska.  That's unless they're able
�    to locate a major media market in the state of Nebraska by Jan. 1...

	Historically, rematches of regular season games in a major bowl are 
ratings' duds.  Coupled with the fact that Father Hesbergh and the General 
Electric CEO do not want to risk having the National Champion's home games 
on NBC next year compromised by playing a quality opponent, Nebraska is just 
what's needed.  A team that's way overrated in the polls, but one whose 
tradition will help when trying to sell the contest.  The NDC coalition 
would probably look favorably on West Virginia (but certainly not if they 
beat Miami).  It'll be the Cornhuskers.  It'll be the Orange Bowl.  It'll 
be a blowout.

				/Don

    HAHAHAHA,
    You people sayeth me.
    
    ND wins legit and all ya'll cry is sour grapes. 
    
    FSU elite?? Man, you been hoodwinked.  Sniff, sniff.
    
    Lou does get sickening. Maybe he means it's not a good football team
    at this moment cuz they been stinkin' up the joint in practice.
    
    They'll be ready for BC. They'll have to.. and any BC fan who thinks ND
    is in for an appreciable letdown, they're crazy.  Holtz'll have them
    thinking that the Irish are the Light Brigade ready to take on the
    Russian Army at Sebastapol.
    
    Count on it.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    I ain't whining or a sore winner. ND won this match, face it (didn't
    you already? so why are you regurgitating yo' anger). Give credit
    where it's due and stop the bellyachin'..
    
    Eagles on the barbie nexted...
    
    MikeL
    

    Tommy listenin' to you poor mouth FSU's talent is hysterical.  Here's a
    school that's been bringing in top-notch studs for years and whose 3rd
    string could beat most (all?) of the ACC schools.  
    
    Give it a rest.  There is absolutely NO talent shortfall in
    Tallahassee, and that's relative to any school in the country
    *including* Notre Dame.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Sure, ND has talent and especially depth coming out their ears but
    they're not NFL-caliber at every position as has been suggested.  On 
    offense, they have a dominant line from tackle-to-tackle  but as 
    far as the skill positions go I think they're actually pretty 
    ordinary by annual ND/Miami/FSU standards, and they certainly have 
    *not* replaced Mirer/Bettis/Brooks without missing a beat.  This
    offense is not as explosive as in recent years.  McDougal/Becton/Dawson
    are not the kind of 1st-round talents that those who preceded them were.  
    But, it just goes to show you how effective a great offensive line can 
    be.  Hell, ND had safeties, punters, student trainers and waterboys 
    ripping off long runs on FSU (that might have been nearly as much FSU 
    weakness as ND strength, too).
    
    I still think ND can be beat in a bowl game by an FSU or a Miami, both
    of which have comparable talent top to bottom.  No one was going to 
    beat that ND team as well as they played Saturday, because they were at 
    their very best.  That doesn't mean it'll happen again.  I don't think 
    ND has the kind of talent where all they have to do is show up, like 
    some of the unbeatable teams Miami has fielded recently where they put 
    3-4 NFL first-rounders on the field each and every year...
    
    glenn
    

    -1,
    I still shake my head that this year's Irish edition can put
    a_offensive hurt on people like they do. Granted, there is a drop
    off in the backfield talent-wise, but I can't explain it, I have
    more confidence in the emerging '93 edition than I did in Mirer,
    Bettis and coimpany. I don't know why but I do. McDougal, Becton et all
    look more in control. And I believe that ND is strong at receiver.
    Dawsom, Miller, Johnson, Mayes and McBride ain't chopped liver.
    Course it all helps when your "O" line is performing that well.
    
    MikeL
    

Anyone who disputes a talent gap between ND and Florida St didn't watch
the game.

ND outtalented FSU in several fundemental aspects of the game and that's
why they won. On offense they completely overpowered the Seminole D. On
defense they totally stopped the run. And both of these mismatches was
much more a result of talent rather than any coaching.

Now in no way do I dispute the notion that Florida St is very talented
it's own self. Just ask Miami. In fact, if'n they weren't very talented
they woulda never held it this close. No one's better this year than
Charlie Ward and a better group of receivers is hard to find this side of
Dallas and San Francisco, NFL that is.

But this year's version of the Irish is the better team. In fact, I don't
necessarily want to see a rematch. The same mismatches would still be
there: the Irish can run it as much as they want/need. Charlie has to
pass. Hail, this time, now that they know the Noles can't run, the Irish
can afford to shadow Ward more and cut down on what he can do while
scrambling. 

Give Lou credit for recruiting 'em, developing 'em and preparing 'em. But
at game time, the better talent won out.

TTom

Personally, I think it comes down to the O-line.

Your offensive line is the foundation of your offense.  If they can't
run block, then you can't set up the play action pass.  If they can't
pass block, you're screwed, period.

ND has a great offensive line.  Hell, with a line that good *I* could
run for a touchdown.  Well, maybe not *I* literally, but definitely
figuratively.....8^)

If you control the line of scrimmage, you control the game...that's
axiomatic, and ND has the line to control the line of scrimmage.....


'Saw

    Yabbut,
    Execution is a mirror of good coaching. Holtz came up with a
    good game plan on offense ( like the reverse working, several
    play-actions had receivers wide-open but passes were dropped)
    with the obviuos power running (traps, etc). Again, execution
    comes from good coaching.
    Defensively, I thought Holtz also had a dang good game plan.
    Shut off the run and contain. For the most part they did that.
    Their defensive secondary was in excellent position, even with
    the butterfingers. 
    
    Holtz' game plan worked; ND did not panic when they were down 7-0.
    FSU looked panicky when it was 14-7 and 21-7. I give 'em credit
    for coming back, but some of that was due to Irish conservatism on
    offense.
    
    Be careful what you wish for FSU, it might come true.  ND will
    be your worst nightmare again.
    
    MikeL
    
    But did I say be fiocused Irish?? Git them Eagles.
    
    

    -1,
    Awww, I was just ticklin' ya...
    
    Ah was fully prepared to come in here and crow if necessarym but
    ah knew I wouldn't.
    
    That being said, I'll translate for ya.... Same result nexted time,
    imo. No brag, jest opinion backed up by the facks.
    
    MikeL
    

>    
>     You see, Mike. That's the difference between you and me.
>    If FSU would've won, I would have been in here consoling you
>    and accepting victory with the tact and graciousness that has
>    characterized my every foray into ::SPORTS. Brag? It's not in
>    vocabulary. Needle? Only to sew with. Bust your stones 'til
>    you beg for mercy? Perhaps.
>


And I'm the King of England......


8^)

    Long live the King!!!!!!

    	Notre Dame will moider B.C.  But should Lou be busy tallying up his
    endorsement money instead of coaching, the NDC mystique (flags or lack
    thereof, whatever it takes) will come to the fore.  So Leary, if you're
    heading down to Miami to watch the Nebraska/N.D. game, remember to read
    those tourist pamphlets in your rental car.  I would hate to lose one
    of the few noters in here who actually believes the Golden Dome B.S. 
    It wouldn't be the same without you.
    
    				  /Don

Nah. Anybody but Nebraska.

How 'bout Catholics vs Criminals, round the next? 

Or maybe hope them mountaineers win and them huskers go down.

TTom

    Fer shame Slash,
    
    Wishing me ill will on the roads of South FLA??? 
    T'ain't gonna happen. I'll be toolin' around loverly Phoenix checkin'
    out the babeage at ASU. Now where should I stay.... BOSS' house or
    Mikey'sss?? Too bad Brews' neighbor done moved out.....
    
    MikeL
    

Considering that Miami is just a poorer talented version of FSU this year a ND
vs. Miami game would be a ratings dud unless NDC pumped it up sooo big that the
media and the clampetts think that Miami stood a chance against them...

I actually hope that Nebraska loses to Oklahoma so that there is now way the
rematch can be avoided....


Even though ND has the talent edge in the pits a few ND turnovers could make it
a very interesting game...


Metz

re: TOs

That's what it'd take, Metz.

But have no fear about any Miami-Notre Dame game. Between NBC, Lou Holtz
and all them media types that voted 'em better'n Nebraska, you'll almost
be sick of pre-game by Christmas. Maybe Thanksgiving. Yeah, it'd sell
good if for no other reason that ND playing for #1.

TTom

>     You see, Mike. That's the difference between you and me.
>    If FSU would've won, I would have been in here consoling you
>    and accepting victory with the tact and graciousness that has
>    characterized my every foray into ::SPORTS. Brag? It's not in
>    vocabulary. Needle? Only to sew with. Bust your stones 'til
>    you beg for mercy? Perhaps.
    
    yeah Mike, just like he did when the Bulls won the title.

    Mike, if you get me tickets for the Fiesta Bowl, you can stay at my
    place.  I'll also give ya the ASU Grand Tour.
    
    BTW - FSU is undefeated at the Fiesta Bowl when I'm in attendance. 
    There's nothing like doin the chop with thousands of FSU faithful.

    	What the hey Leary?  Here I am showing genuine concern and you get 
    all in a dither.  Just to show you I harbor no grudges I know a couple 
    of nice bars in Overtown that you may like.  I'll send directions offline.
    
    				/Don

    ABTW - ASU's coach Snyder is sticking to his word to give the school
    more national attention.  We'll be playing Miami and Nebraska over the
    next 3 years.  Time for ND to belly up to the bar and give us a shot
    too like they did for Nogales Tech down the highway.

                                                                        
    It just may be that particular team strength/weakness matchups favor 
    Miami more than FSU over Notre Dame this year.  I don't know; I really
    haven't paid so much attention to Miami this year.  I did see the
    Miami-FSU game and I thought Miami did a fair job of running the ball
    and containing FSU's explosiveness on offense.  They were right in it
    through three quarters and then some poor QB play by Frank Costa
    greatly contributed to their downfall.  He's since been replaced. 
    Maybe by running the ball better, relying less on their QB and
    having a bit more size up front on defense, Miami presents a better
    challenge for ND.  Maybe, then again maybe not.  Miami is waiting in
    the event of a couple of minor upsets or lackluster performances by the
    teams in front of them.
    
    I still think that with all three of these teams the differences are
    marginal and the matchup theories based on all of two games (Miami-FSU,
    FSU-ND) are very speculative.  Anything can happen on Jan 1.  We've come
    full circle on the "sand-bagging" issue (for the lack of a better word; 
    the comments in here on each side-- not Holtz-style exaggeration-- are 
    mostly legit).  Let's not forget that FSU came into South Bend as a 
    touchdown favorite.  While weaknesses were exposed, this is still a very
    powerful team.  If they play their game without making mistakes like ND
    did last week they can beat anyone in the country.  What it boils down
    to is that this is still college football, there is much imperfection
    even in the best programs, and championship and other big games between
    like opponents are not so predictable (as the NFL's Super Bowl, etc.).
    
    glenn
      

    re .531
    
    I was sorely tempted with your offer, Mike... until ah read yo'
    second paragraph. No can allow ya to chop away with mah seats!! 8^)
    
    And Slash, thanks for the magnanimity... please send directions..
    don't want to be obvious looking at a map in Fla..
    
    MikeL
    

>    I was sorely tempted with your offer, Mike... until ah read yo'
>    second paragraph. No can allow ya to chop away with mah seats!! 8^)
    
    Well I don't have to do the chop if we're sitting on the Irish side.  I
    always thought they and Michigan have cool fight songs.  I'll bring my
    portable Marshall stack and whip the Irish faithful into a frenzy with
    a Jimi-styled version.

    
>    Well I don't have to do the chop if we're sitting on the Irish side.  I
>    always thought they and Michigan have cool fight songs.  I'll bring my
>    portable Marshall stack and whip the Irish faithful into a frenzy with
>    a Jimi-styled version.
    
    Uh, geez, Mike, somehow I don't see that contributing to the
    atmosphere... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
    Well, it's a dirty job, but somebody has to distract them from rooting
    for their team. 

	I got home last night and there in my mailbox was next week's 
Sports Illustrated.  On the cover is a picture of a Notre Dame player 
flexing his anabolically enhanced biceps with the caption below reading...
"WE DID IT".  A quick glance to the top left of the cover reveals the 
issue date, November 22 1993.  Now is it just a coincidence that Sports 
Illustrated happens to have the story of the latest "Game of the Cenury"
on the exact same date as one of the most complex, treacherous and 
Machiavellian conspiracies of the 20th century?  Could it be the 
journalistic equivalent of a "Freudian Slip"?  Hmmm....

			     	/Don

    Wail I hope this SI jinx is kaput..
    
    So Slash, are you picking BC in a_upset like a couple of Boston'w
    pundits? (well only Dick Lutsk, who does BC football).
    
    Nice sophomoric article by George Kimball denigratin' the "Fighting 
    Irish" ness of ND.. surprised that ol' George was sober enough
    to write period.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    	I liked "The Fightin' Homeboys" better Tommy.  :*)
    
    Claybone

    You have no sense of history, me main. The "fighting Irish" is
    a symbol but you knew that. Whether the players are AA, NA, IA,
    you name it, it's a symbol and beacon for ethnic pride.
    
    Why look at the "Irish" honor roll...
    Rockne, Parseghian,Czarboski,Hornung,Huarte,Page,Arrington,Krause,
    Ismail, Brown,Rice,Penick, Clements, Casper, Stuhldreher, Bertelli,
    Lattner, Gugliemi, Fry, Browner, Carter,DuBose, Theisman, Montana,
    Dorais, Layden, Shakespeare(no kiddin!), Lujack, Conjar, Buonoconti,
    Petriosante, the list goes on.
    
    "Fighting Irish" and its song will do just fine, thank you.
    
    MikeL
    

    Hey Mike, you're really going to regret not coming to Tempe.

    No, you don't get it do you. It could be the Fighting Iroqois.
    
    You miss my point entirely. The dang school was founded as a Catholic
    college by French priests. There was never a preponderance of
    Irish vs other ethnic groups. It was just a symbolic nickname
    meant to honor all peoples' courage (in those days, particulatly
    Catholics). Now everyone knows that no university has any right
    to proudly hold up their record in regards to African Americans,
    ND included. What is important is that ND as well as others offer
    educational opportunities to any minority and they've been doing
    that for quite a while. ND, with the use of quite a bit of its
    NBC money, actively recruits all minorities specifically for
    academic scholarship. The university realizes it recruits many
    AA's for its sports program and doubly realizes that it has a duty
    to all minorities to offer scholastic aid as well. And it's doing
    that.
    
    So IMO, the "Fighting Irish" moniker is apropos, no matter what
    ethnic background wears its uniform.
    
    MikeL
    
    

�    So IMO, the "Fighting Irish" moniker is apropos, no matter what
�    ethnic background wears its uniform.
    
    Even for a college founded by French Priests?  Where the heck did they
    come up with the name anyway?  FSU I can understand since Seminoles
    did/do live in Florida.  But a school founded by French priests calling
    themselves Irish??

I don't know if'n this has been brought up afore but the "Seminoles" was
chosen not only by consent of real Seminoles but at their request.

TTom

    And why are the colors for a team that calls themselves the Fighting
    Irish Blue and Gold?  Maybe they should call themselves the Fighting
    Cub Scouts.

They got green uniforms, too, don't they?

TTom

    
    Why are you continuing to axe insipid questions?
    
    Lemmmee give ya a history lesson there Mac..
    
    Notre Dame was founded in 1842 by a French priest by the name of
    Fr. Sorin.  Now lore has it that the good padre's great uncle was
    a commodore in the francais fleet in the late 18th century.
    At tha time France and England were perpetually at each other's
    throats. In the winter of 1797-1798, some young Irish republicans
    were itching again to throw off the English yoke. Well some
    found their ay to the Court de King Louis where they entreatied the
    francais gouvernment to lend assistance to Irish freedom(rebellion
    to the unwanted anglais). Now the agreement was that the Fench fleet
    would sail to the west coast of Ireland (Galway way) and aid an
    Irish rebellion with francais mariners and army types in the summer
    of 1798. The fleet was led by Admiral Hardy ( who while praised by
    the Irish, is kinda remembered by the Irish in similar fashion
    that you castigate 'Saw and Slash, er no-shows so to speak).
    Wail, the Irish mustered a purty strong force, armed only with pikes,
    and marched to meet the musketereed anglais army. Now the Irish
    thought they'd march to meet up with the French forces only to
    be met by a couple of French courtiers who said " Sorry, bub, but
    this is all that Nappy sent!"  Needless to say, the Irish fought
    valiantly and fearlessly, but badly ounumbered agin guns, they was
    routede and subsequent survivors were hung. Now the French courtiers
    were secreted away but remained marvelling at the spirit of the
    "Fighting Irish"  Why, over in Eire, 1798 is remembered by Republicans
    as the Year of the French.
    
    Now Fr. Sorin's uncle, being off the coast of Eire at the time, 
    heard the story of the "Fighting Irish" of 1798 and the rest is
    history.
    
    Now ya won't find that in yo' Funk'n Wagnalls BigMac, but munch on
    dat fer a spell!
    
    MikeL
    

    Mikel you forgot George Gipp and you include Huarte and leave out
    Hanratty and Seymour.
    
    And you include Layden and Stuhldrehr and leave out Crowley (and who
    was the fourth?), the last being a genuine Irish name or was the the
    point (or not not the point).
    
    And why is that although the names may not be Irish they surrely do
    have a lot of great football names like Pietrosante and Buoniconnti.
    
    

    Yeah, 
    I forgot Seymour (who ain't Irish) and Gipp, but purposely left
    off the definite Irishers like Hanratty, Crowley, and the fourth
    Horseman Miller. And yes, that was thec point.
    
    And wot, Mssr Brydiwe, you question the veracity of the Irish lore
    and legend? Next thing I knowm you'll be accusing me of being
    full of blarney, either a slap or praise of me heritage
    
    MikeL
    

    Yep, there he is next to Arrington who played for the Pat's I think.
    
    That CCC&V award shouldn't be taken lightly when you think of the
    competition who I hardly need name.
    
    And you can get those 50 tix easier thru Nostradamus tech although BC
    doesn't really move fast on any game except for good seats which they
    simply don't sell to just anybody - I think they'd give them away
    first.
    
    I used to have season tickets to Roberts Center and annually I'd try to
    get down on the floor and they would look at me like I was wearing a
    purple tie or sump'n.  You'd think they never heard of my intramural
    touch football prowess (back when we played on the field and the tree
    was still standing).
    

    Nah,
    
    34-21.  BC can move the ball. We'll see.
    Twas listening to EEI this PM fer a spell. Clueless Dale Arnold
    was ranting and raving that Foley, the supreme college passing QB
    would take advantage of ND's weakness, the secondary. Nuttin' agin
    Foley, but it's obvious why this nitwit Arnold got canned from
    being the BC asnnouncer; he don't pay attention! ND's weakness is
    in its pass defense from the LB position, not DB. Sheeit, Arnold's
    ranting about ND's strength agin the pass from the LB position
    while extiolling Foley's ability to execute the 10 yd control
    pass agin ND. Well who the hail does he think is covering them
    10 yd passes, the trainer??  Why do I get in a dither, this maroon
    should stick to hockey.
    
    Anyhoo, BC can mix it up, pass and run, and will move the ball.
    Still not enough.
    
    MikeL
    

	ND 35 BC 3

   If bc gets more than 200 yards total off.,  Lou's playing the third string.

   ND is toooo big and strong for them kid's from beantown.


  Cadzilla2

    
    Yabbut I got off the phone with da ninj'!
    
    He's having a ball being married and all that and he sends his regards
    to everybody but Nazz  ;^)
    
    He said that being married has changed his life and he's a changed man!
    
    He's rooting for BC to kick ND butt bigtime! (He even used the 3 letter
    "A" word!!!!!!) Said BC should win by 13 - Foley's not gonna be
    stopped!
    
    He's even thinking of buying a few BC Basketball tickets for this
    season.
    
    
    I remain,
    seriously hopeing I dun pulled yer leg good!
    ;^)
    Kev

Hey Leary - don't be disin' mah main Dale Arnold.  
The guy knows his stuff, and ifin' he says the ND 
secondary is weak, then you, sir must be mistaken.

Arnold hates Holtz, feels he ran up the score lasted
year, and beleives the stuff in "Under the Tarnished 
Dome".  He didn't get canned from BC football, a 
different company won the rights, and replaced him wif
the ultimate homer, Dick Lutsk.

=Bob=

    Sorry Bobby,
    Dale Arnold knows as much football as I do marathoning.
    Yea, he got canned. That new company had thwe opportunity to
    hire DalesyWalesy but din't.. I listened to Dale and neanderthal
    peter Cronin many times.... they sipped. 
    
    And I'll agree with you on one thang... he hates Holtz. still castgates
    Lou for the fake punt(cuz he had nothing else to pulpitize on...).
    And he boot licks Coughlin every time he can. He claims Coughlin is
    twice the humanitarian that Lou is..... HAHAHAHAHA. Go axe the Bc
    players how they felt about TyrannicalTom when he climbed da Heights.
    Cap'n Bligh woulda been nice..... bottom line? Bof Coughlin and Holtz
    are of the same mold...tough SOB's who are demanding which a_course is
    quite necessary in foosball. Only one you heard bitchin' lasted year
    was InhaleDale about the fake punt. Coughlin said boo. 
    As Bobby Bowden said "ain't mah job to keep te score down, that
    belongs to ya'll's defense" Nuff said... both Coughlin and Holtz know
    that..
    
    Anyhoo. it's Pep rally time and I gotsta git home to put mah Lou mask
    on!! 8^)
    
    GO IRISH
    
    MikeL
    
    

    Who'd a thunk it????
    
    BC ambushes ND
    
    
    billl

    Way to go BC!
    
    { insert uncontrollable laughter }
    
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 

    Well Lou Holtz finally got it right. heh heh heh.
    
    Yo, MikeL save for me the sports section from Sunday's
    Globe; I suspect you won't be framing it.
    heh heh heh
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Congrat's BC fans!  What a fantastic game.  I was having Thanksgiving
    dinner at my in-laws in Indianapolis watching the game.  It was rough
    sailing late in the 4th quarter for the only non-ND fan in the house!
    
    It would have been a travesty had BC not come back to win the game. 
    They got shafted by the officials twice.  The first was the intentional
    grouding on ND that wasn't called.  The second was the *spectacular*
    touchdown by the BC receiver that was ruled out-of-bounds.
    
     - Bob "ROPE" Roper

    
    
    I glad ND lost. GOD is surely a JESUIT. 
    
    reply -.1: It would been a travesty had BC not been able to win the
               the game. This game for BC was even better than Doug 
               Flutie miracle pass against Miami.
    
                     Craig
    

    I loved every minute of it!!!! 
    
                         stig

    The Leary watch... day 2....
    Looks like Arnold was right.....
    
    REK

    
    
    Yabbut, "No.  I don't think we're a very good team"
    
    					Lou Holtz on lasted Monday
    
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    giving Kudo's to BC
    Kev
    

Yea, ol' Dale Arnold was clueless.  The ND defensive 
backfield was just too much for BC.  Shut them right 
down.  Especially Pete Mitchell...

=Bob=

        My Barney Rubble laugh was going after this game.....
    
    
      .562 should be eating the bird before thanksgiving...
    
      Tim

    
    	Nebrask #1, West Virginny #2!  Anything else is a travesty.
    
    Claybone

	Congrat's to Tom Coughlin and the BC Eagles glad they pulled it out
in the end. 

          
> Yea, ol' Dale Arnold was clueless.  The ND defensive 
> backfield was just too much for BC.  Shut them right 
> down.  Especially Pete Mitchell...
    
    To be fair, ND refused to adjust its weak man OLB coverage on 
    Mitchell and Mitchell just beat on them without mercy, especally up
    against the kid Pete Bercich (get some hands, man!).  Of course, Glenn 
    Foley was simply magnificent all the way around, underneath and deep 
    against the secondary.  Truly one of the great individual efforts I've 
    seen in recent years.  The redhead is known for a streak of cockiness 
    and on Saturday he showed immense composure and leadership in college 
    football's holiest shrine, the kind that FSU and Charlie Ward were not 
    capable of just one week before.
    
    I'm sure we'll hear the usual business about how it can't be considered
    a classic because the defenses were not up to the task (although BC's
    did play remarkably well through three-and-a-half quarters) and it's
    only special because BC has no real football tradition, but as far as 
    I'm concerned this game was one of the very few best I've ever seen.  It
    would have been right up there (albeit an unspeakable heartbreaker for
    BC) had it simply ended with ND's miraculous comeback.  Of all schools,
    Boston College steals a national championship from the clutches of
    mighty Notre Dame...  
    
    glenn
    

    What's this leary watch day 2 crapola.
    
    I's here like a main. As I said in the college football note,
    congratulations to BC. Well deserved win. We got our butts
    kixked for 3 quarters some. Coughlin really came up with a solid
    game plan and his team definitely executed. Great coaching and
    execution from the vistors' bench. Holtz sure took it on the
    chin. BC's offensive coordinator oughta be ordained. And I'll tell ya,
    no team has stymied ND's offense like BC. BC dared ND to pass and
    ND could not make the adjustments. Coaching edge:: definitely BC.
    
    Coupla gripes on mah part ( ah is allowed) about ND. 
    
    1) Defensive coordinator Rick Minter said that during the week
       prior to FSU, he spent several nights staying in his office
       devising a game plan. Well he musta decided to sleep all last
       week (nuttin' agin BC). No adjustments period. A national
       champeenship team (and ND has the talent) makes those adjustments.
       I hope Minter has a lousy winter.
    
    2) Don't know if it woulda made any difference, but that maroon who 
       committed the personal foul on ND's kickoff with 1:00 to go
       oughta be dope slapped. BC woulda started on the 10. Oh well,
       the way Foley was shredding the ND defense, might not have made
       a difference
    
    3) Desrvedly or not, Pete Bercich (ND linebacker) wears the dunce
       cap for three non-plays during BC's last drive. First he drops a sure
       interception that woulda iced it. Secondly, he gets beat (again!)
       by Pete Mitchell for a BC 20 yard gain. And thirdly, on the last
       play by BC before the field goal, BC completes the flanker lokk in
       for 10 yards. Guess who the LB was that was in position to make
       the tackle to keep it only a two yard gain? You guessed it.
       Nice arm tackle attempt Pete.
    
    
    Anyway, great game by BC.They were the better team on Saturday.
    
    Oh, btw, Dale Arnold was wrong. He stated that ND's secondary was
    their defensive weakpoint. Definbitely not true. As glenn stated,
    the linebacker coverage in zone is their weak point; see Mitchell,
    Pete all day. ND's defensive secondary did not have a good game
    Saturday, but have played well all year until the BC game.
    I stand by mah opinion on DalesyWalesy.
    
    MikeL
    

	Main!  Considering the Notre Dame "mystique" and all (Boston 
College got absolutely robbed out of a touchdown) how could Lou lose?  If 
Bobby Bowden coached a stinker like that against an obviously inferior 
opponent he would be castigaged!  Still, I wouldn't be surprised if Notre 
Dame jumped from #4 to #1 in the polls on January 2nd (after all it has 
happened before).  Considering that Notre Dame placed *5* starters in the 
NFL off last year's team (*3* are ROY candidates), and that they lost to 
Stanford and tied Michigan, this latest underachievement should not come as 
any surprise, but it's still a great day for the non-Irish.  Somehow or 
other the NDC coalition has to get Notre Dame a shot at the National 
Championship without making it look to WWFlike.

				/Don

    If BC had lost it would have been a real shame to see the goat horns
    put on Foley's head for those 2 fumbled snaps.

>    If BC had lost it would have been a real shame to see the goat horns
>    put on Foley's head for those 2 fumbled snaps.

    
    You have to admit, while Lou Holtz has been seemingly brilliant 
    as an underdog, he's had some problems with the roles reversed.  I
    heard some local TV guy after the BC-ND game extolling the fact that
    this game was only the 8th time that Holtz has lost in South Bend in 8
    years.  We were supposed to be impressed, but for a top-notch program
    like ND's one home loss per year ain't that impressive (Miami hasn't
    lost at home even once in that span).  Even worse, by my count that's 
    3 home losses while ranked at #1 (Tennessee, Penn St. in 1990; BC 1993) 
    and a 4th loss against Stanford while at #2 (or #3?) in 1992.  
    Obviously you have to take the good with the bad but it hasn't been 
    *all* good.
    
    This is *not* in any way intended as an endorsement of the 
    Brydie-Robichaud theory that when Notre Dame beats a poorly-prepared
    FSU team it's entirely due to awesome talent that no one can hope to 
    compete against (the FSU game was far and away ND's most impressive 
    effort of the season), and when they lose the very next week to BC 
    it's due to dumb coaching.  Until he wins the big one, that's Bowden's
    albatross, not Holtz'.  Fortunately for him, this year it looks like 
    Bowden should win the title without the season-defining showdown 
    victory.  If he doesn't now after getting such a reprieve, the legend
    will be sealed.
    
    glenn
    

    Way to misinterpret!!!

�                      -< way to emphasize the positive! >-
�
�>    If BC had lost it would have been a real shame to see the goat horns
�>    put on Foley's head for those 2 fumbled snaps.

    I'll help you out here, Mike.  If BC had lost, Foley would most likely
    been awarded the goat horns and it would have been a shame since he
    played a great game and has had an outstanding season.

    Excellent note Slash. weren't you the one who told me that Gloria
    Swanson was in on the conspiracy to assassinate JKF(let's all
    bow our heads in remembrance of that day 30 yrs ago) cuz his old
    man had dumped her? I thought that was you....
    
    Yup, Holtz and co, have not fared well when they've been #1 pre-bowl
    Maybe he relishes that 'dog role. This question mark is legitimate.
    
    MikeL
    

>    I'll help you out here, Mike.  If BC had lost, Foley would most likely
>    been awarded the goat horns and it would have been a shame since he
>    played a great game and has had an outstanding season.
    
    We'll never know but my bet would've been on the blown TD call.  That
    was a great catch by the BC receiver.

    and don't forget the "intentional downing" penalty that BC got ripped
    off on. Even when Foley possesed "fumbleitis butterfingeritis" there
    still had been *no QB this year that tore NDs defense like Foley did!!
    I would say that he is a candidate for the "best player of the week
    award" in College Football this week.   
    
                            stig                                   

    	The REFS� can only do so much.  You can only help those who want to
    help themselves.
    
    				/Don

    >> (the FSU game was far and away ND's most impressive effort of the 
    >> season)
    >
    >   Stop the presses!!!! News flash!!!!
    
    Nice use of context.
    
    You're laughing now but last week this one single game was being used
    as prima facie evidence that Notre Dame was only a couple of backup 
    special teams players away from the NFL, unmatched in talent in all of 
    college football.  Now we've seen Notre Dame in a different light (one 
    that they *had* been seen in in other games this year, too).  I expect 
    that if and when FSU wins the title that you will also abandon your 
    previously expressed opinion that ND is unquestionably the better team 
    and come to the same conclusion, that it was just one football game on 
    one given day...
    
    glenn
    

    -1,
    
    HAHAHA
    You can cut and paste your note and put Bobby Bowden and FSU in
    there. We all know Holtz was outcoached by Coughlin, just
    like an equally talented Bowden-led FSU teak m was outcoached and
    outexecuted by Hioltz and company.
    
    Give it a rest and consider yourself fortunate that your 
    team is at #2 and in position to win it all for Geniusless.
    
    MikeL
    

    Yea,
    Now I know how ND alums living in LA felt eons ago when USC would
    kick our butts...
    
    Beware BC nexted October!
    MikeL
    

     > pantsed on national TV
    
    

    
    	Yabbut speaking of da jinx, I thought I heard on the radion
    that BC's gonna grace the next cover!
    
    Hope it comes out nexted Monday, after the game.
    
    my $0.02
    
    I remain,
    just me
    Kev
    

    Yup,
    
    BC will grace the cover of SI this week, jest before the WVU game.
    
    I thought a more apropos picture would be Jim Flanigan of ND again,
    laying on the ground in defeat with the caption, "They Did It"
    
    MikeL
    

                                              
>    Yabbut speaking of da jinx, I thought I heard on the radion
>    that BC's gonna grace the next cover!
    
    Great!  They really do deserve it.  This is the kind of exposure that
    money can't buy.  The short-term jinx effects are worth it.  I hope
    they find a way to get both Foley and Mitchell on there... ;-) 
    
    Because I enjoy college football so much more than the NFL, it would
    be nice if BC could, as so many are saying, parlay such a big victory 
    and two straight generally strong seasons into a process where they 
    perennially put strong football teams on the field, in turn attracting 
    stronger competition (having ND on the schedule through 2004 sure doesn't 
    hurt).  The last time they had that opportunity they blew it.  Many 
    people around here somewhat inexplicably hate BC (whereas in other parts 
    of the country there is plenty of space for both 1-A and 1-AA football) 
    and I'm not particularly a great fan of theirs, but I still would
    welcome BC status as a regional football power.  If they could just get
    the stadium expansion issue settled they might even be able to compete
    on equal footing for top-notch non-conference games that I for one
    would certainly pay money to see (especially before the Patriots).
    
    Of course if all this comes to pass as hoped, Boston College would 
    certainly be compromising their reputation as a respected Jesuit 
    institution of higher learning (snicker...). ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    You're having a hard time today, Tommy.
    
    Do what BobBlight suggested, just lay back and enjoy it!
    
    

Article: 1684
From: [email protected] (JEFF SHAIN, UPI College Football Correspondent)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football.college,clari.sports.top
Subject: 'Game of Century' meant nothing
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 93 16:20:02 PST
 
Commentary
	Can it really have been so long ago?
	Fighting Irish-Seminoles. Juggernaut of the present meets storied
Notre Dame past. In South Bend, no less. Right under the shadow of the
Golden Dome, with Touchdown Jesus keeping watch on Florida State's ``Sod
Patrol,'' ready to scoop out a spadeful of turf to take home to
Tallahassee and transplant at the campus shrine to road victories.
	Bobby Bowden vs. Lou Holtz. Chief Osceola vs. Notre Dame's
leprechaun. Seminole War Chant vs. the 1812 Overture. (Leave it to Notre
Dame to create a niche of tradition for a great piece of classical
music.)
	You certainly couldn't get away from the comparisons. Or anything
else of the hype, for that matter. Nearly 700 media credentials were
issued, so many that some of the writers had to freeze their word
processors off in the stands with the rest of the fans.
	Speaking of freezing, we weren't sure for a while whether ESPN has
metamorphasized into WeatherChannel2. They consulted the Farmer's
Almanac. They had Lee Corso standing in front of a satellite weather
map, describing cold fronts instead of defensive fronts. On game day,
Pam Oliver kept checking the South Bend sky to see if anything had
changed from the weather report she gave five minutes earlier.
	But, unlike so many overhyped blowouts in sports, the game actually
lived up to expectations.
	Florida State struck quickly, just as it had against everybody else,
driving 89 yards to a touchdown on its first possession. But those would
be the only points the Seminoles would score in the game's first 40
minutes.
	Instead, it was Notre Dame controlling the tempo. The Fighting Irish
unleashed a power running attack that wore down the Seminoles, while the
defense put Florida State's ``fast-break'' offense into a four-corners
stall.
	At the end of one quarter, Notre Dame had rushed for 99 yards, two
more than the Seminoles' defensive average entering the game. The
Fighting Irish finished with 239 yards on the ground and four rushing
TDs -- two more than Florida State had given up all year.
	Holtz even beat Bowden at his own game -- turning Adrian Jarrell loose
on a flanker reverse that went 32 yards for a score.
	Florida State, meanwhile, misfired when it went to its trick plays.
One calling for two overhand laterals across the field put the ball in
the hands of Heisman shoo-in Charlie Ward, who slipped for a 14-yard
loss at the Seminoles 6.
	Ward was not only having problems with the turf, but with the wind.
He threw his first interception in 159 attempts, when John Covington's
pick shortly before halftime led to Notre Dame's third TD. And secondary
mate Jeff Burris, when he wasn't running for two TDs in Notre Dame's
goal-line offense, could have had FOUR interceptions -- but dropped them
all.
	The Fighting Irish led 21-7 at halftime, tacking on a Kevin
Pendergast field goal early in the third quarter to push the margin to
17.
	Then just as suddenly as -- and perhaps because of -- a wind shift, the
momentum changed. Florida State's fast break found its gear.
	Ward hit Warrick Dunn for a 6-yard TD with 4:45 left in the third
quarter. Then a Scott Bentley field goal to start the fourth period cut
the margin to seven.
	Notre Dame countered with an 80-yard touchdown march, then thought it
had the Seminoles stopped -- until the luck went against the Irish.
	On fourth-and-goal from the Notre Dame 20, Ward's pass was tipped in
the end zone by Fighting Irish defender Brian Magee -- into the waiting
arms of Kez McCorvey for a score. Had Magee simply batted the ball to
the ground instead of going for the interception, the Seminoles would
have faced an insurmountable 14-point barrier with less than 2 1/2
minutes left.
	Florida State's onside kick failed, but the Seminoles were on a roll
now. The Fighting Irish were stuffed and a heavy rush forced Jarrell to
shank a 5-yard punt that gave FSU 63 yards to cover in 51 seconds, with
no timeouts remaining.
	Three completions took the Seminoles to the Notre Dame 14 with 10
seconds left. Ward's next pass was batted down, leaving three seconds to
decide the outcome.
	Notre Dame took a timeout, while its fans strained to wake up the
echoes that somehow dozed off midway through the third quarter.
	Ward went back to pass, threw to the left corner of the end zone --
and it was batted down at the goal line by Shawn Wooden as Notre Dame
fans streamed onto the field in celebration.
	It was a classic in every sense of the word, one that kept fans on
the edge of their seats from the opening kickoff to the final play. You
can't ask for more than that.
	You do remember the game, don't you? You must, since the TV numbers
show around 50 million of you watched it, the highest ratings of any
college game in a decade.
	Turns out the joke's on you. On every college football fan, really.
That game -- the one that was hyped for three weeks, the one that still
had everybody raving after its conclusion, the one that had ``rematch''
on people's lips -- meant nothing.
	Check this week's college football polls. Though both teams have only
one loss, Notre Dame trails Florida State in every set of rankings. By
as many as three positions, in some cases.
	In the NFL and most college conferences determining champions for
bowl purposes, what's the first tiebreaker? Head-to-head competition. If
this had been a conference or the NFL, Notre Dame would win the
tiebreaker.
	But not in this case, not with a shot at the national championship on
the line. Florida State apparently will get its shot; Notre Dame won't.
	Instead, it's as if Charlie Ward's pass had found its intended target
in those final three seconds. It's as if Shawn Wooden never had been
there to bat it down. It's as if Florida State won.
	It's as if the game never had been played at all.
	Boy, they sure had us fooled.
--
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    -1,
    You sure one of me fellow ND alums din't write that TTom??
    
    A quietly held opinion by mosted ND fans (the non-rabid ones).
    
    MikeL
    

        <<< Note 35.605 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

  >> Instead, it's as if Charlie Ward's pass had found its intended target
  >> in those final three seconds. It's as if Shawn Wooden never had been
  >> there to bat it down. It's as if Florida State won.
  >> It's as if the game never had been played at all.
    
>>>     It's as if ND went and got the living crap beat out of them by Boston
>>>     College.
     

	but they didn't Tommy which it makes it all more delicous to see the
 former media darlings being dropped like hot potatoes...

 mike

    
    It may not be popular to say so, but ND has a beef for being ranked
    behind a team it beat. Two teams each have identical records, one's
    beaten the other, but the team that lost is ranked ahead of that beat
    them.
    
    FSU will probably beat Nebraska. ND will annihilate Texas A&M. FSU will
    win the MNC. Doesn't make sense..
    
    
    
    

    
    
    hahahahahahahaha
    
    ND basketball team losted to BC Eagles lasted night
    
    
    I remain,
    glad to bring ya thisted news update
    Kev
    

    BC beat ND by 8 points, so we beat the spread 8^).
    ND's BBall team, while not woeful, is weak and will be fortunate
    to win 9 games IMO. Thanks Digger.
    
    Now ND football...
    Why my favorite Herald pundit, George Kimball (musta been sober this
    time cuz ash liked the article, right Tommy?) quotes all the
    oddsmakers in Vegas as having, surprise, FSU as #1 and ND as #2.
    Tell us somefing we football afficianados don't know.
    A_course, that means as much as our stock these days so...
    
    I sense a groundswell of support in hearing ND's side of thangs in
    this champeenship hunt.
    
    Let's look at 1989 vs 1993.  Let's assume FSU beats Nebraska,
    ND beats A&M, WVU loses to Alabama/Florida
    
    1989                                             1993
    
    ND #1 most of year, loss to                  FSU #1 most of year, loss 
    Miami, ends at 12-1                          to ND, ends up 12-1
    
    Miami #2-4 most of year, loss                ND #2-5 most of year,
    to FSU, ends at 12-1                         beats FSU, loss to BC
                                                 ends at 11-1
    
    ND plays 9 bowl teams, Miami 3               FSU plays 8 bowl teams,
    ND has tougher schedule                      ND 4, FSU has tougher
                                                 schedule
    
    ND beats #1 CU in Orange,                    FSU beats #1 Nebraska
    Miami beats # 6 Bama in Sugar                in Orange, ND beats #6
                                                 A&M in Cotton
    
    ND at #1 loses at Miami                      FSU at #1 loses at ND
    in early December                            in mid-November
    
    ND and Miami end up with one                 FSU and ND end up with
    loss. Miami gets #1 because of               one loss. FSU gets #1
    head to head record                          in spite of head to
                                                 head record.
    
    
    Now there is one difference that will spell the difference and it's
    subjective dogpoop IMO. Miami lost to FSU in September of '89.
    ND lost to BC in November of '93, their last game. Those late season
    losses killya. However FSU also lost in November '93.
    
    My opinion? If ND and FSU win and WVU loses, both ND and FSU should
    be co-champs. 
    
    MikeL
    

    FSU lost to a #2 team.  ND lost to a #17 team.  Of course FSU is ranked
    higher than ND.
    
    
�    I sense a groundswell of support in hearing ND's side of thangs in
�    this champeenship hunt.
    
    I wonder if that has anything to do with ND threatening to take their
    ball and go home.

    Mike,
    
    How long you gonna keep blaming Digger for ND's hoops failures? 
    MacLeod has had a number of years to start assembling "his" program,
    even going so far as to higher a DeanDisciple (Jimmy Black) to assist.
    
    I personally am not convinced John MacLeod is capable of building this
    program.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

                            
>    Now there is one difference that will spell the difference and it's
>    subjective dogpoop IMO. Miami lost to FSU in September of '89.
>    ND lost to BC in November of '93, their last game. Those late season
>    losses killya. However FSU also lost in November '93.
 
    There is one other very significant difference.  Miami lost to FSU *at*
    FSU in 1989, ND lost to Miami *at* Miami in 1989 (but both decisively
    and late), FSU lost *at* ND in 1993.  Considering the opponent and the 
    circumstances there is no great shame in any of these losses; all were 
    considered to be tight games going in and logically one loss in such a 
    game on the road should not be regarded as indisputable evidence that 
    the loser is a decidedly inferior team to the #1 team.  Then you have ND 
    losing to 10+ point underdog Boston College at home on the last day of 
    the season.  It's just too much to overcome.
    
    Precedent *and* at least some logic are conspiring to work against 
    Notre Dame this year (there are other teams that have lost the
    head-to-head vote for the MNC with a head-to-head victory in hand-- 
    USC in 1978 to Alabama in the AP, because USC turned around and 
    dropped a shocker to Heiser's Ariz. St. pretenders).  Now personally
    there's no question but that I'd rank these two teams 1 and 2 for a
    deserved rematch for the championship instead of either of the charity
    cases, but right now it would be FSU at #1 and ND at #2.
    
    glenn
        

    Digger has been gone for what? Three years (1990?). This year's senior
    class was his... MacLeod has had not many recruits in the last three
    years cuz Digger "used" up mucho scholarships. Digger let a good
    program go south real quick with a lack of recruiting effort in
    his last few years. He was able to recruit well during the 70's and
    up to the mid 80's and proceeded to take a sabbatical while on
    the job.  His lack of success, and I'm talking not only champenships
    but quick exits from the tourney when they shoulda gone further, 
    eroded the program. And they have not recovered.
    
    I ain't sure about MacLeod either. MacLeod wanted to focus on
    Indiana material but he, as a_Indiana boy hisself, should realize
    that the state bleeds red in BBall. The Evansville area fer example,
    while blue and gold in football fandom, worships in Bloomington
    come winter time.
    Digger recruited well in DC, metsa/metsa in NY/NJ and Ok in Illinois
    and Calif. ND needs *badly* to join a conference in BBall. *Badly*.
    
    Now please tell me Tommy why "Fightin' Irish" nickname has the
    opposite effect on BBall recruits than it does football recruits.
    Why the hell would the nickname be a detriment for one but not the
    other. Inner city AA's?? Shoot, the Irish football team has recruited
    many AA student-athletes for football and Bball. Educate moi.
    
    MikeL
    

    Small nits about 1989 fresh in my mnd because of a 1989-93 comparison
    article in the newspaper today:
    
    Miami's loss at FSU was on 10/28 not in Sept.
    Miami beat ND 27-10 on the last day of the season moving up to a solid
    #2.
    The huge difference as Glenn stated was that in 1989 Miami's loss was
    to a top 5 opponent on the road. ND,even if they are better than FSU,
    cannot overcome their terrible home loss to BC.
    
    BTW,the article pointed to the following very possible scenario:
    
    FSU as expected beats Nebraska.
    ND  as expected beats Texas A & M
    Florida or Alabama (probable favorites) beats WVU.
    
    Eliminate the controversy. Make Auburn #1.

    MikeL, you've been around long enough to recognize that the FSU loss to
    ND was a Excellent_Loss.  The ND loss to BC wasn't.

    
    I have no issue with FSU being #1 or #2, same with ND.
    I realize there would be no issue, ND-wise, if ND got the job
    done agin BC. They did not. I still think they should be in
    consideration for #1. But they won't be, I know thaty.
    
    MikeL
    

    Mac,
    
    The one thing that bothers me is that some media and coaches believe
    that FSU's loss to ND was an aberration ( I guess I thinbk ND's
    loss to BC was!!), and to me that's totally wrong.
    
    It hasn't been one month since that game and some of the media
    rationalize that game away. I see quotes now that FSU wasn't "on",
    on a neutrakl field, etc. Nothing against FSU because I truly
    feel they are worthy of #1 or #2 ( and I don't mean Nebraska or
    WVU as the "other" team in dis picture), but ND *beat* FSU.
    I simply feel they match up well with the Seminoles. Now whether
    that means ND is as good or better than FSU, you be the judge.
    And apparently the results is in! A rematch would be great, but
    alas and alack, t'aint in the cards.
    
    MikeL
    

I gotta couple of questions about the Cotton Bowl.

 - What's the early line.  By how many touchdowns is Notre Dame gonna win?

 - According to Lou, just how good are the Aggies?  

Jerry

    re: .620 - Aggies
    
    This one is easy.
    
    "This is the best Texas A&M team that ND has ever faced"
    
    

    Why Jerry,
    You should know that this year's A&M squad are second only to
    the '85 Bears according to the gospel of stlou.
    
   I bet the line is gonna ber 6.5 to 7 points, but I'll pick ND by
    at least 10.
    
    MikeL
    

>>   <<< Note 35.622 by CTHQ::LEARY "Corporate Telecom Technology Solutions" >>>
    
>>   I bet the line is gonna ber 6.5 to 7 points, but I'll pick ND by
					  ^^^^^^

Shouldn't that be 6.5 to 7 TDs?
					    
I'm just hopin' we give you Irish fellows a half-way decent game.  After
all, ND really is a MNC contender, and A&M is barely a top 10 team.  Seems
like a mis-match to me.

Lou for Jerry

    
    
    ND's gearing up for the Cotton... I hope the players don't get
    caught up in the "what if" crap and concentrate on the Aggies.
    A&M's bested chance lies in a ho-hum/overconfident Irish.
    
    Anyhoo, Irish will dump A&M 23-13 and claim a spot of the MNC
    wig FSU edging NU and Florida gatoring WVU.
    
    Lou Holtz, in a interview wif a Irish football mag, promises that
    he'll write a book after he retires someday and tell the real deal
    that came down at Arkansas, Minnesota and this "Tarnished" crapola.
    Says he's finally sick and tired of all the merde floatin' around
    about him and he's gonna set the record straight. Claims he cain
    only take so much slander. Attaboy Lou, give them hail, and make 'em
    all eat dirt.
    
    
    MikeL
    
    P.S. Irish Bball falls to 2-3 after being pasted by the Arizona
    Wildcats in the Maui Classic.
    
    

    Oh I don't know Tommy.
    
    If ND is lackadaisical, they'll lose. During this season, ND certainly
    played uninspired at times (Navy, Purdue, BC) and were lucky to be hurt
    only once. 
    
    I don't think A&M has the talent to play with an "on" ND team, but
    if ND has the attitude that there's nada at stake, you'll see
    the same type of Purdue/Navy/BC performance.  
    And I don't think it will happem but I ain't gonna be in the locker
    room.
    
    MikeL
     

    So now you're saying that BC lucked out and caught a "down" ND team?

    No, I take nothing away from BC at all. They played exceptionally
    well for the most part. I offered no excuses. ND was not "on"
    for the better part of the BC game, I don't think anyone denies
    that. BC was "on" and dictated play; ND did not respond until
    very late. No disparagement towards BC was meant. 
    
    ND definitely was lackadaisical vs Navy and Purdue, two teams they
    should have walloped. Against Purdue, ND finds itself in a scoreless
    tie at the start of the fourth quarter; against Navy, ND is down 27-24
    to a pathetic team. ND was simply going through the motions until
    they got dope slapped in the face with wake up calls.
    
    Against BC, ND was definitely *not* overconfident and lackadaisical,
    they just weren't "on". They played flat due in no small part to BC.
    Their offense finally woke up, but their defense certainly did not.
    They sure picked a hell of a time to come up flat.
    
    And Tommy,
    I did say the same thing against Navy and USC. I was at the Navy game
    and for a full half the Irish slept. I was a bit surprised at the USC
    game. I thought ND would take the Trojans a bit for granted because
    USC had given them no comp consistently for years. I was wrong. ND
    came out fired up as we all remember.
    
    I'll stick to my guns; if ND is flat, they'll have trouble. But I
    don't believe they'll be flat. 
    
    MikeL
    
    P.S. 
    Ya know, I believe Holtz deserves much consideration for COY.
    No one among the experts felt this team had a chance of competing
    for the MNC with the talent they lost. I believe Holtz did his best
    job in molding this year's squad as a *team*. You can't tell me that
    the loss of stellar rookies such as Bettis, Brooks, Mirer, and TE
    Irv Smith wasn't felt. You look at McDougal, Becton, Zellars, and
    TE McBride and you tell me which group you'd rather have looking
    at talent-wise. And defensive standouts DuBose, McDonald, and Carter with
    punter/kicker Hentrich all gone. 
    
    I think Lou did a hell of a job molding this team into a solid unit.
    What hurt ND's team (against BC particularly) was a poor punting
    game, pass defense from the LB position, and sporadic pass defense.
    In fact, LB is ND's glaring weakness(agin the pass). I think Lou and
    hgis defensive coaches did a hell of a job compensating all year
    till the BC game (great exploitation by Coughlin and Foley= 13
    receptions by TE Mitchell).
    
    Now if A&M is gonna beat ND, Pullig better be prepared to hit his TE
    or backs on the dump/slant. If he has success early, I'll have the
    worry beads out.
    
    
    

    Yup,
    I criticized him and the team for not getting it done last year
    when they shoulda won it. In 90 and 91 when most of the same was
    around, their defense (headed by that beaut Gary Darnell) was
    worse than the Marginot line.
    
    In fack, Bettis (three umbles vs Michigan), Mirer (worst game at ND
    vs Stanford) and the defensive "stars" ( quit 2nd half vs Stanford)
    done in the Irish themselves. Underachieve? I think so.
    
    MikeL
    

> Ya know, I believe Holtz deserves much consideration for COY.

rolllllllling. you slay me.

The Crazy Met

    OK Craze,
    Step up to the plate and give me any (il)logic on the subject.
    
    Expand yo' response.
    
    MikeL
    

MikeL,

How will the loss of Skip Holtz to UCONN affect ND next year?

'Saw


PS  You'll have to come down to a UCONN game next season!

    Is it true that Skip was the one who got his dad the job at ND?

    Skip was the Irish offensive coordinator last two years.
    ND had very good success from that side of the line. He is more
    of a proponent of the Bowden/Ericson pro style approach. His dad\
    loves the conservative running game. You saw who won out on that one!
    However, I saw Skip's influence on ol' Lou. The Irish went to
    some more intricate passing schemes the last couple.
    
    He'll be missed, but more importantly, I hope his replacement
    bring a similar "liberal" approach to the game.
    
    MikeL
    

    Mac,
    Never heard that one. Kinda sounds implausible. Skip gradiated from
    ND in 1985 I believe so the timing coincides(Lou was hired after the
    '85 season) and Skip was a graduate assistant under Lou for a couple.
    
    MikeL
    

    Notre Dame 77, Texas A&M 10
    
    Only if Lou doesn't play the first string in the fourth quarter.
    I predict the Irish score on their first six possessions.  It'll
    be 56-3 at the half.
    
    NAZZ

    	I don't think it'll be that close NAZZ.  Notre Dame should really
    clobber the Aggies.  Notre Dame 222 Texas A&M 0.
    
    				/Don

    In the good news dept.
    
    ND beat Don'tSqueezetheChaminade 94-78 in the consolation bracket
    of the MauiWowie Tournament.
    
    Purty sad when ya gotsta take heart in winning a consolation( i.e
    losers) game.
    
    MikeL
    

    Seen on Fla beach...
    
    God mad ND #1
    BC made them #4.
    Murph
    

For Mike and all the ND fans.  We know who's really #1.....


Cheer, cheer for Old Notre Dame
Wake up the echoes cheering her name!
Send the volley cheer on high,
Shake down the thunder from the sky.
What though the odds be great or small
Old Notre Dame will win over all
While her loyal sons go marching onward to victory!

    .641
    
    Yea, I saw that blurb in the Globe about that Tshirt. I laughed
    when I saw it, purty good.
    
    Bob Ryan, BC alum, slams ND a tad in his Globe column. Takes much
    pride in BC denying ND the MNC. But in his overbearing, half-truthful
    style, puts some cheap shots in against ND. Nice gracious winner that
    Ryan is, huh?? It's almost been 2 months since BC beat ND, and
    I was waiting for Ryan to toss his anti-ND slam in the Globe. He's
    been purty gracious until now but his true colors came out. 
    Wonder how his fellow BCer, that weasal Lupica, has been gloating in
    the NooYawk press?
    
    MikeL
    

    University of Notre Dame - National Collegiate Football Champions for 
    
    
    			***  1 9 8 9  ***

    Well,
    Actually 1988 (even though they won on New Years, 1989).
    
    We'll take '89 if you're giving it to us! 8^)
    
    MikeL
    

MikeL in 1989 was Miami higher ranked than ND before the Bowl games??

The Crazy Met

    CU - 1
    UM - 2
    ?? - 3
    ND - 4
    
    I would guess that ?? is FSU.
    
    Murph

    I seriously think Lou Holtz did his team major damage with all of the
    poor-mouthing he does all season long and the resulting negative
    reputation in the media.  Note the difference in the margin of the vote
    between the AP and the coaches' poll.  Normally you would expect the
    opposite, because coaches have shown a tendency to go with the good guy
    with the good story from their own coaching community, which in this 
    case clearly favored Bobby Bowden.  The media does not take Lou Holtz
    seriously, and their impressions are not generally conceived in the 
    humorous, good-natured way that Holtz might be intending to present 
    himself.  The next time Holtz might want to stop telling everyone how 
    bad his team is somewhere around mid-season, at the very least...
    
    I still think FSU deserved the vote in a close call, again because ND
    lost at home to a very inferior opponent too late in the season, and 
    ND was no more impressive in the bowls than FSU was up against a
    lower-ranked team.  It was right there for Notre Dame if they had come
    out and outplayed Texas A&M, without even having to really blow them
    out.  Frankly, while I think FSU was held back in the big games by 
    lousy coaching by Bowden, I still don't believe that this ND team, with 
    the loss to BC and a few other uninspired outings, is really all that 
    good, talent-wise and performance-wise...
    
    glenn
      

Ulimately, Lou and the Irish lost their chances to a share o' the MNC by
only beating A&M by 3. Substitute lasted year's score and ND wins at
least a share.

TTom

>    I still think FSU deserved the vote in a close call, again because ND
>    lost at home to a very inferior opponent too late in the season, and 
>    ND was no more impressive in the bowls than FSU was up against a
>    lower-ranked team.  It was right there for Notre Dame if they had come
>    out and outplayed Texas A&M, without even having to really blow them
>    out.  Frankly, while I think FSU was held back in the big games by 
>    lousy coaching by Bowden, I still don't believe that this ND team, with 
>    the loss to BC and a few other uninspired outings, is really all that 
>    good, talent-wise and performance-wise...
>    
>    glenn
      
     I agree with this regarding ND -- they'd have been voted #1 if they had
     beaten TAMU by 24-14, or something like that.  On the other hand, I really
     think FSU beat Nebraska ONLY because of the poor officiating, and if I
     were a sports writer I'd still have Nebraska as #1.

    What about the issue of CONSISTENCY of criteria!  If FSU is #1 this
    year, why wasn't ND #1 in 89 (or 88?)
    
    Jack