Conference misery::feline_v1

    My guess is that you could call your vet and he'd answer these
    questions for you over the phone.
    

    I have a birthing cage that I confine my queens to when they are about
    to deliver.  They remain in that cage until their babies can climb out
    of the nest box (about three weeks old).  When the kittens are infants,
    the queen's generally have no interest in going too far from the nest.
    The birthing cage is about 3 feet wide, 4 feet tall, and 2 1/2 feet
    deep.  Is that about the size of a rabbit cage?
                                          
    The queen's can come back into season as soon as a week after delivery.
    They should not be allowed to roam free at all.  You could wean the
    kittens by 5-6 weeks and spay the females then.  Once the kittens are
    eating solid foods, spaying can take place.  Occassionally a queen will
    lose her milk when she is spayed, so I wouldn't spay them until the
    kittens are eating solids.
    
    You can only do so much.  Just take it one step at a time.
    
    Jo

    God, you are talking a lot of kittins here - 7-8 preg cats could mean
    up to 35 kittens if they deliver 4/5 per litter.  How far along are the
    moms?
    
    I know it's not a pleasant thing having to have gone through it myself
    but is there a chance that any of these litters can be aborted.  No
    flack please - its a difficult decision and a difficult position to be
    in having been there - but looking at placing this large amount of
    kittens and then the spaying of the mothers is quite a task.  I had 14
    fearl moms down in the gardens and we weren't always able to get our
    hands on them before they were pregnant so it meant aborting the
    pregnancy and haveing them spayed - one/two at a time - and at the same
    time trying to find homes for maybe 8-12 kittens from other litters.
    
    Is there a possibility that a vet or society could give you a sort of
    group rate in light of the amount of pregnant cats that you have?  I
    could be worth a shot - we found a vet that was able to help us out
    this way.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Giudi
         

    re:.1  The vet assist. said two weeks after they are weaned.  SHe 
    	   was busy and didn;t have much time to chat.  I was hoping I
    could get some info from the folks who breed here.
    
    re: .2 
    
    We have a small and large rabbit cage.  I was hoping to leave a mom 
    and kittens in the large rabbit cage until they are weaned.(its about 
    2 X 2� X 4).  CAn we force the kittens to be weaned early? 
    
    re: .3
    
    Well, most of these felines are showing, so we suspect they may be 
    to far along to catch them now.  Any idea on how far along it would be
    safe to do?  Say if they had their kittens, got pregnant w/ in a week
    or two and we weaned then at 5 weeks.....would it be safe to spay the
    mom then?

    Could you possibly chat with the vet and set up a tabby tab so
    you can have them fixed all at once?  My vet did this for us...of
    course I asked for a group rate first!
    
    Sandy

    Purr-haps if you set up a tabby tab some of us could help you
    "whittle away" at it over the next few months. 
    
    Whether or not to spay the pregnant cats is a decision that must
    be made by you and your vet.  IMHO if the cat was 4 weeks or less
    I'd get it done provided the vet said it was ok.  How far along
    the cats start showing is an individual thing dependant on how
    many kittens she's carrying and whether or not she's been pregnant
    before and some individual characteristics.  Halie starts "showing"
    around 3 weeks but Bonnie who is due next Monday hardly shows at all.
      Nancy

    Is there a stall that could be completely enclosed with
    screen or something that you could use for all the "mommies"?
    Or a small shed of some type?  
    
    This would protect the kittens & mother from the males until
    it's time for spaying.  
    
    Lynne

    It is up to the vet to determine whether its safe enough to abort the
    litter - for some reason we never had a problem and none of the cats
    had any complications.  Each mom did carry differently - some showed
    more than others so it was difficult for us to determine what was safe
    or not.
    
    The big day and grand prize after many many months of trying and
    failing was the capture of the offending TOM and nutering there of.  My
    reward for all of this was adopting one of the abandoned kittens
    (STITCH).  There was one monther cat who just dropped the litter, took
    one cat with her and left the rest behind.
    
    But please do check out the group rate possibility.  One of the vets in
    Dr. Scott's office has a policy - you catch them, bring them in and
    I'll spay them.  God bless Rhonda.
    
    Good luck
    
    Giudi

    Depending on the queens you may be able to cage the mom's until the
    kittens are weaned.  I introduce semi-solid foods at three weeks, and
    within a few days all the kittens *can* eat.  Most would prefer to
    nurse though if given the chance.  I have successfully weaned a litter
    at three weeks and 2 days due to a problem with the queen's milk. 
    Wasn't easy but we did it.
    
    My queens get ansy when their kittens start crawling around.  Their
    instincts tell them that is the time to move them to a new spot.  This
    is why caging in the same cage from birth to weaning usually doesn't
    work.  Natural instinct takes over in a lot of cases.  In the wild, at
    three weeks, the mom's would move the babies.  So, as long as you are
    prepared for that, you can probably still keep them caged.  Use the
    little cage first, then move them at three weeks to the larger cage. 
    Depending on how social these cats are, you will probably have to keep
    each mom and litter separate from the others.
    
    This sounds like quite a job you have here.  You will need lots of room
    and lots of help.  Are there others that can help you besides the one
    friend?
    
    I would say that if the mom had kittens, then came into season and was
    rebred in one to two weeks, you could spay her when her babies were
    weaned at five or six weeks old without any danger.  This does not take
    into account individual risks though.  The vet would have to help you
    there.
    
    The more that you can spay before delivery, the easier the task would
    be.
    
    Jo
    

    Hi,
    
    I've had a few years of dealing with Ferals.  I have brought 2 females,
    el'prego to a vet and both were able to abort.  I feel this is the only
    way to tell if it's safe, is to have them check out.  
    
    Well, 8 is alot and 35 kittens in this world is very difficult for
    them.  If at all possible, may I suggest you bring them in, even one a
    a time to have this checked out and maybe to a shelter for some and
    have them born there.  Some, as in anything is better than none!
    
    I'm in the process of working with Kim -- to place all the kitties I
    have, which is about 11.  5 are females............can't handle the
    expense of taking care of them, and they'll be in a loving shelter,
    care for, shots, spayed/neutered and hopefully placed.   And if not,
    they'll be away from chasing dogs, rain, ticks, fleas, car tires, snow
    and freezing cold.
    
    Good luck, and bless you too............
    
    Hopefully someone can help you, as I am getting help too!
    
    Carol   --  Dudley Road Gangs' Mom
    
    

    Hi,
    
    I have no experience catching ferals, but I have dealt with placing
    them and turning them into pets.  I'm the one helping Carol Weston
    place hers.  I can also help with yours.  If you can catch them I can
    take it from there.  My boyfriend is very supportive of what I am doing
    and is helping me with placing cats, and getting them the care they
    need.
    
    I have had several requests for kittens, and I made a list most of
    these people are still waiting.  I contacted them to see if they would
    be interested in one of your kittens.  They are.  So if you can catch
    them I can do the expensive part, plus place the kittens and the
    mothers.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Kim
    

	Kitty Update:

	I have heard many `war stories' about neutering ferals, and I
	can't believe how lucky we've been.  Two of the males, Tom (the 
	first to be neutered) and Buster (2nd) became best buddies in the
	whole world.  These two guys hated each other.  Tom was the 
	`Boss' and wouldn't let Buster around (so he'd go to my house 2-3
	miles away - over the mass pike, no less- and terroize my cat and beg
	for food).  Well once Tom was fixed, he started letting Buster
	hang around - and finally we were able to catch him, and have him
	neutered.  Hopefully the black cat(3rd), no name, will start coming 
    	a little closer (he's still afraid of us).  My girlfriend is
    	planning on taking him.

	Well about a week after Busters neutering, Buster and Tom became 
    	best friends.  They butt heads together, hang out and sleep together.
    	You can't pet one w/out the other moving in for some lovin's!  

	Some of the females (and kittens) will be going to Kim's shelter, 
    	where they will be getting fixed up and have good homes found for 
    	them.  They are all wonderful cats, and I sincerely believe that 
    	once their hormones are in check and they learn to trust people more 
    	(we can pet most of them, but they remain very cautious), they will 
    	make great pets for some special person.  The other female or two will
    	be spayed and fixed up via FoA and will remain at the barn w/ Buster 
    	and Tom.  

	I want to thank those who offer to help (anon. off line) and Kim
	Trainque aka the PB shelter.  All your support and kind words have
	made this project much easier to deal with.

	Michele

    re: .9
    
    What hapens if the queen is caged for more than 3 weks in the 
    same cage?
    
    
    M

    M, 
    
    My Joui will go nuts if I don't move her and the litter.  She will pick
    up a baby by the scruff and then pace around with it in her mouth.  She
    keeps doing this and can cause a sore to develop on the baby's neck
    from carrying it around so much.  So, I cooperate and move her when the
    babies are three weeks old.  Instincts are hard to fight. :^)
    
    Sounds like you are making good progress with these cats.  Good job!
    
    Jo

    
    re: .14
    
    sounds like a good reason to move them at 3 weeks.  The small cage is
    probably plenty big to the first 3 weeks, then we'll move her to the
    larger one (as suggested).
    
    BTW-
    
    As of last nite CATS - 5
    
    		    PEOPLE - 3  (we're getting there)!
    
    It's funny, typically once someone goes into the tack room, the cats
    will be all over you (even the feral ones), but we had 2 caged and
    awaiting transportation, and the only ones we could attract were the
    neutered ones.  Finally one small kitten showed up and we looked so
    silly armed with fish nets, food .....the neighbor across the street 
    really thinks we're wacked!
    
    I must say we do have an advantage over some of these other cases....we
    have a tack room with only 2 doors to get in or out.  Once we got the
    kitten in there (it's were we normally feed them) and locked the doors
    (another feat in itself) she went nuts smashing into windows and walls.
    Finally in a mid air leap over a bale of hay, she was caught in the
    net.  Boy, can those guyes squirm!
    
    But I think the others sense something is going on and they haven't
    been frequenting the tack room....but they have been getting fed across
    the  street.  We'll have to chat w/ the lady and ask her to stop for
    the time being.  
    
    Anyway, it feels good to make progress.  The unfortunatly, in the
    scramble we noticed there are several more than we anticapted.  Oh well
    we'll catch them.  has anyone had luck w/ a have - a - heart trap?  I
    was told they are too smart for it.
    
    M  

    Michele -
      Its good to hear that the net has come in handy ;^)  Best $9
    I ever spent. 
    
    I do have a have-a-heart trap also which I've used with some
    success.  Let me know if you want that too.
    
    Andrea Fease told me that she has a smaller net that you might find
    useful also.  She's going to check on the exact size and get back to
    me.
      Nancy

    	Cats:	??
    
    	Humans: 9  (hmm, let's see, tom-cat, buster, the black one, #1,
    		   #2, #3, as of last nite, the one w/ the icky eye,
    		   the grey one, and the grey and white one....yup 9).
    
    
    Last nite we caught 3 more.  The old lady across the street has
    been on vacation for a few days, so these kitties are getting hungry!
    And they are starting to come into the tack room (real bold for some)
    to get food.  The funny part is the buster, tom and nike always 
    come to eat too....so they end up getting trapped into the tack room
    with the crazy people w/ the net chasing the ferals....Americia's
    funniest home videos here we come!
    We are seeing some we've never seen before....although we guess w/ out
    kittens there could be 20.
    
    Nancy the net is the best thing....thanks for letting us use it! 
    
    I think Nile is ready to deliver....last nite she was over affectionate, 
    not interested in food....basicially strange... and she looked like she 
    was ready to pop!  (poor thing)  
    
    Michele

    re: Nike - well more kittens usually means smaller kittens and
    easier delivery - if that's any consolation.
    
    Keep us posted.
    

    And higher kitten mortality. :^(
    
    Jo

    re: .19- well there certainly is an optimum litter size, Jo.
    5-6 seems good.  At least for Halie, and in my very limited
    experience.  
    
    Well, the rescue is in progress so think positive.
    

    nike still hasn't had her kittens yet.....maybe this weekend???
    she usually has 3, and we think we have homes for them.  One of
    Buster's daughters, which we caught and had to let go because
    she must of just had them, had kittens somewhere on the property....
    maybe in this high, hot grain chute.  We have'nt heard any crying
    so we arn't sure if their still alive.  Saturday we'll probably pull
    the thing appart to look for them.  If they are alive, we have a
    surrogate mom to put them on (and get them mom spayed).
    
    I just got good news.......3 of the 6 cats have been tested for Felv
    and the results came back negative!
    
    more later.....

    And chances are good that if they're negative then the others
    will be too.
      Nancy 

    Nike finally had her kittens!  four of them....and they all have homes.
    She'll be confined and then spayed when the time is right.
    
    We caught another wild female last nite, and her four kittens.  She is
    a new one....well we think since the others which used to run the
    place probably kept her away.  There is another huge male cat thats
    hanging around too.....probably one of Nike's sons.
    
    M

    
    
    Another update:
    
    	The last three cats we sent out to be spayed.....needed to be 
    	neutered.  Suprise!
    
    	They were sent through the PB shelter, with the hopes of placing 
    	them in good homes.  They have not adjusted well, so we'll be
    	taking them back at the barn.  They are Felv negative and neutered.
    	One of the cats had to have it's eye removed.  We decided that
    	they would have a better life at the barn.
    
    
    	M

    Michele...
    
    Are they the guys in the cages at the PB shelter with signs on the 
    cages saying "caution - do not put your hand/face near the cage".   
    They looked so lonely I just wanted to hug them.....but they didn't 
    look real happy!   Pretty cats....
    
    They probably can't wait until they get back to the barn atleast
    they won't be making babies anymore!!
    
    Sandy
                                         

    How is the PB shelter doing in terms of getting tax exempt status,
    so DEC will match funds?  Is this a long process?
    

    They probably were the ones, Sandy.  It will be interesting to see if
    they calm down like Buster and Tom did.  THe other male we neutered
    took off, and we haven't seen him since.  We had never really seen him
    before either.....almost makes you wonder if we neutered someones
    pet?  ;^)  oh well, C'est la vie!
    
    The kittens we caught were in rough shape last nite.  They were brought
    into the barn Sunday nite after all that rain, and were soaked!  They
    looked okay, Monday, but last nite......Priscilla was trying to make
    an exchage last nite (the 3 males for the mom and kittens).....I have
    not heard what happened.
    
    re: .26
    
    I don't know the status, I think Nancy DC was helping out w/ the paper
    work.
    
    M

    .26  The last I knew Priscilla's lawyer was reviewing the paperwork.
         I hear there is alot of paperwork to be filled out...and it does
         take some time to process. Hopefully soon....the extra money
         could help!
    
         Sandy
    
         

    Thanks for the credit but I'm not helping with that particular aspect
    of things ;^)   I did get vaccines and a couple of supplies for the
    shelter through Revival to save them money.
    
    I think Priscilla said it would take about 2 months to find out if
    they get the tax-exempt status.  In the meantime she's holding the
    matching gift cards.
    

    And NDC is Priscilla's walking cat encyclopedia!  A comment made was
    "hanging around Nancy for one hour is like reading three
    encylopedia's."
    
    Sorry Nancy...I just had to share that!!!! You have helped alot!!!
    
    Sandy
    

    re: tax-exempt status
    
    If anyone needs any help on that, please let me know.  I just helped
    the one shelter I work with in Pueblo, CO get through the IRS office in
    Dallas on that; their first attempt got kicked back, and I was able to
    do all of the supplemental info in a couple of weeks.  I'm now pretty
    familiar with what is required for that process, and it's overall not
    too bad.

    re: .32 - Oh Gawd!  That's all I need - a reputation as a
    know-it-all!!    8^) 
    

    Well, I thought I'd be updating w/ both good and bad news, but it turns
    out to be all bad.
    
    Tom has passed away.  I pulled into the barn last nite to see him and
    Buster grooming each other.  An hour later, someone came in to say her
    had died.  He looked peaceful, like he died in his sleep, in one of 
    his favorite sleeping spots.
    
    Buster is distraught.  He can't find Tom and is walking around in a
    weird state.  Poor guy..... :^(
    
    Tom didn't always have an easy life, but for the past 3 - 4 years,
    he has had food and shelter.  His last year of life was spent
    free from the problems associated with raging hormones and becoming
    buddies with his worst enemy - Buster.  Tom was a real happy cat,
    he enjoyed his life at the barn, and love all the attention he could
    get.
    
    I've never done this before...it's so hard.  
    
    
    Our other bad news is the Nike can't get spayed today.  It will be in
    two weeks.  WE didn't understand that she had to be separated from the 
    kittens prior to spaying.....oh well, we'll learn.  My girlfriend said
    she'd keep her if her boyfriend dosent mind, for the 2 weeks.  Then I
    might see if she can hold her for the recovery period as well.  I know
    she'll be taken care of well.

    I'm so sorry about Tom. How lucky you both were to have each other
    for the time that he did have.
    

    So sorry to hear about Tom....and I feel bad for Buster.   Michele...
    it's so hard when a dear friend passes away...but you need to keep
    in your mind that you have helped all those poor cats so much and
    he had a very happy life at the barn.   That is something he would
    not have gotten if you hadn't become involved.
    
    RIP...big guy!
    
    Sandy

    So sorry to hear about Tom - lots of hugs to Buster.
    
    Giudi

    thanks guyes....

    I, too, was very sorry to hear about Tom's passing...  Take comfort
    in the fact that he's in good company up in kitty heaven, and give
    Buster lots of attention.  It'll be good therapy for both of you.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    I have added Tom's name to the Silver Lining Memorial.  Let me know
    if there is some special way you'd like him listed.  I'm sorry to
    hear of his passing.
      Nancy

    
    So sorry to hear about Tom...
    
    With sympathy,
    
    Karen (and Georgie)