Conference misery::feline_v1

	Boy, does that sound familiar! :^}  Smudge does exactly the same
	thing with Jenny, and I've yet to find a technique that works.  
	We just end up isolating them from each other when we're not
	around to watch.  I don't know what sizes your two are, but Smudge
	is about double Jenny's size, and treats her as if she were prey.
	We've even given her Ovaban, and while it made her become a real
	mushball towards us, it didn't change her behavior towards Jenny.

	Sorry for not being able to help more, Sandi, but I'm looking
	for ideas, too!   You may want to watch them closely, though.
	At our house the intimidation kept escalating until Smudge
	actually hurt Jenny - once scratching her on an ear, and then
	next time right in the corner of her eye.

	Sandy, Smudge (our terror), Tas, Jenny, C.C. & Beau

    RE. .1
    
    Patches weighs over 14 lbs and Thunder only weighs 9 lbs so it's going
    to be Black Thunder that gets the worst.  Patches also has all her
    claws and Thunder only has her back claws.  
    
    Sandi and the Storm Troopers
    
    

    >Patches weighs over 14 lbs and Thunder only weighs 9 lbs so it's going
    >to be Black Thunder that gets the worst.  Patches also has all her
    >claws and Thunder only has her back claws.  
    
    Sounds like the Argus vs Alex problems I had a while ago. I finally got
    so fed up I spoke to the vet. Clawless Alex went into a rage at the mere
    site of Mr. DoublePaws, and he returned the response. The vet put both
    of them on Ovaban for what seemed to be forever. We stated with a
    megadose everday for a full week, then a megadose every other day for
    10 days ... and this lasted for about 3 months. They get along pretty
    well now, they sometimes even cuddle togeather.
    
    Tho only thing that  you might want to try before you go to the vet is
    E.T.'s tried and true technique of holding Patches to Thunder and
    letting her sniff as much as she wants. Once she learns the smell,
    things might get better.
    
    Deb

    Maybe just like people, some cats just don't like each other?
    
    I'm also on the lookout for ideas. I replied to a note last summer
    when my two neutered toms, Pip & Domino, took to fighting. Domino was
    attacking a new cat in tne neighbourhood which seemed to have a good
    territorial reason, but he and Pip also took to fighting each other.
    
    At that time the suggestion was offered that the exceptionally warm
    weather had made them bad tempered & things seemed to improve when
    autumn came. But recently, the last 6 weeks or so they've started
    fighting each other again.
    
    Both seem to take turns to start the aggression. So one cannot be
    accused of victimising the other. Both are treated equally. They're
    getting plenty of attention - in fact they were spoilt rotten over
    Christmas.
    
    The thing is they used to be such friends. Pip is 16 months older than
    Domino and when Dom was a kitten Pip used to groom him & play with him.
    They curled up & slept together - no problem. NOW if they both get on
    the bed together the fur starts flying.
    
    I've tried the water bottle, holding them together & petting them at
    the same time, ignoring the fighting completely, shouting at them to
    stop......... nothing has any effect. The whole idea of having two cats
    was so they would be company for each other not beat each other up!
    
    I can't keep them separate - they are outdoor cats and have the run of
    the house (they get in through a catflap). They eat quite happily
    together. They fight both inside and outside the house.
    
    All suggestions gratefully received.
    
    Rosemary, Pip & Domino

    I too had the same problem. After we had to put our Saint Bernard
    to sleep, poor Mocha seemed so lonely. Along came sweet Ming to keep
    him company. At first everything was "okay" but they never became
    what I would call close. I didn't expect them to cuddle and wash
    each other but at least stay in the same room together without
    someone putting their ears back or swishing the tail.  I tried 
    everything the same as all of you did.
    
    Over the two years I talked with several feliners about my problem
    and it was suggested, add another cat. Well I couldn't see how this
    was going to help. I continued to "put up" with it unitl I got to
    the point where I was going to "kill" them both. (Remember like your
    Mom would say to you, IF you don't stop it I am going to kill you and
    you knew you had pushed her to the point where you better stop or you
    were going to be sorry?)
    
     About this time Mr. Miyagi was entered into the notes file as
    needing a new home quickly. I couldn't get him out of my mind.
    I picked him up August 1st. and we have had NO fighting since then.
    I know some of you already have multi cat households but the third
    cat sure worked for me. On one hand I wish I had DONE IT SOONER,
    on the other I wouldn't have my wonderful Mr. Miyagi.
    
    Barbara & her 3M's

    RE .5
    
    	NO...NO...NO... I can't add another kitty.  I already have
    four now.  It's really funny.  Lightning, Thunder and DejaVu all
    get along nicely.  They all came into the household as kittens.
    Patches was an *older* stray that we took in last year.  I really
    think that is the difference.  I figured time would take care of 
    the problem but it hasn't.  Lightning has calmed down *a little*,
    DejaVu is still extremely nervous and afraid around Patches, and
    Thunder is a *BRAT !!!!*  I was hoping that Deja and Patches would
    form a friendship because they are both such sweet, loving cats
    but it didn't happen.  I fell like I made a BIG MISTAKE taking
    Patches in but I couldn't just leave her outside to freeze.  I'm
    almost tempted to *try* to find her another home but she and my
    daughter have really bonded together.  Patches adores her...  I'm
    only the person who feeds her and lets her out (and in).  I know
    that Lightning wonders sometimes if I still love her (I DO !!!!)
    because I spend so much time taking care of Patches and Thunder,
    but Thunder KNOWS I love her.  
    
    I'm really at my wits end.
    
    Sandi and the STORM TROOPERS (it really is a *stormy* house)
    
    

    Adding adult cats to an adult cat household is one of the harder types
    of additions.  I have done it, and done it with whole females and whole
    males.  That makes it doubly hard.  I can understand what you are going
    through, I have been there.  It is very frustrating.  You want them all
    to just get along and love each other as much as you love them.
    
    It took a year for Kaitlin to settle into our household.  It has been
    almost a year now for Kaisha too, and she is finally coming around. 
    She was very timid, and spent the first 8 months streaking from one
    hiding place to another.  She is finally feeling secure in the
    environment and is coming out for attention and play time.
    
    I think that how you introduce the cats is very important.  You have to
    be careful not to set anyone up.  I never scold one cat for picking on
    another, I think that makes for resentment amongst the cats.  I pretty
    much leave them alone and let them work it out themselves.  But, you
    are probably already doing that.
    
    Wish I could give you more help.  But, for now all I can say is that I
    have been there, and I know how hard it can be.  
    
    Jo

    Sandi,
    
    Have you spoken to the vet about Ovaban?  
    
    Deb

    re: .4 - One possiblity now could be females in heat.  I have noticed
    that Dundee has become somewhat more aggressive lately and I am now
    having trouble with him marking again.  Since Bob had a UTI I put
    Dundee on Amoxi as well when I caught him marking.  Bob's using the
    catbox fine, Dundee is still marking some.  I think it is very likely
    due to the whole females in the house.  CC & Angel are now 7 months
    old and this is the time of year that females start "heating up" as
    Jack would say.  That can "excite" even the neutered males and you
    may see more male behavior (fighting & marking).  Its as if the 
    neutered males react but don't know what to do with that reaction.  
    
    So if you have unspayed females in the neighborhood that may have
    something to do with their behavior since they are outdoor cats.
      Nancy

    re: .4 - I should add that I agree about asking the vet about ovaban.
    
    Deb, Didn't you also use it on a female who was being overly
    aggressive?

    >Deb, Didn't you also use it on a female who was being overly
    >aggressive?
    
    
    yep, Alexandra the Greatest, aka Alex, who is the decalwed cat I was
    refering to. For some reason, many vets don't like to give Ovaban to a
    female, but I'll tell you, it ended WWIII.
    
    For those who have never given Ovaban, the stuff works almost
    immediatly. I've seen Argus go from being in a rage to calm in about 2
    minutes.
    
    Deb

    The reason that vet's don't like to give Ovaban is that it is not
    approved for use in cats, and it is not without risks.  My own vet is
    very leary of it, although I have gotten her to prescribe it for
    Winston and Monroe from time to time.  Seems like in some cats it can
    lead to Liver or Kidney problems, but I can't remember which.
    
    Ovaban should not be used on intact breeding animals as it can cause
    sterility males and increase the risk of pyometra in females.
    
    Jo

	True - my vet was also apprehensive about prescribing Ovaban for
	Smudge.  He says that he has only ever used it on dogs, and then
	for skin problems, not behavior.  He recommended a very small
	dose, which we tried, and then subsequently doubled as it was 
	having only a very slight effect.  We kept her on the pills for
	about three weeks, and while she mellowed considerably, she still
	can't be left alone in a room with Jenny.  She's even attacked
	while Jenny was sitting in my lap, so it doesn't matter if we're
	there or not.  Of course it's due to jealousy, but it doesn't
	seem to matter how much attention we give her - she's just not
	happy living in a multi-cat home, I guess.  Jenny is the most
	timid of the Siamese, so she becomes the target.

	Sandy

    You mention different foods.  If they're fed different brands that
    could definately be a source of jealousy.  This was always a problem
    for me because I had a middle aged, overweight kitty that needed to
    eat low-cal food, and a younger, active kitty who needed regular
    food.  The solution I finally went to was to schedule feedings, rather
    than leave food out all the time, and to put a little bit of the
    other cat's food in each bowl, so they wouldn't think they were 
    missing something.
    
    Even if you're feeding the same food to all of them, it's very possible
    that Patches would feel territorial about her food bowl.  In my
    experience food is a great source of stress for a lot of cats, and if
    she feels that the other cats are threatening that security she could
    be reacting to that.  Try to find ways for eating to be non stressful
    and non threatening.  She's just following her instincts to protect
    her stuff.
    
    Worked for me.
    
    Karen, Tenzing and Ryan.