Conference misery::feline_v1

    Barbara, first of all, I would consult another vet.  If the problem
    is as bad as you say, I am surprised your vet is just throwing his/her
    hands up in the air and treating the problem lightly.  Secondly,
    nine-lives is (in my opinion) an awful food!  My guys puke from
    it too.  Is that all you've fed Ivory in her whole five years? 
    Have you thought about a possible food allergy??  Perhaps she is
    allergic to the food you are feeding her.
    
    Hairballs are a very serious problem if allowed to manifest over
    time.  You say that Ivory dislikes laxatone.  There are several
    other hairball remedies on the market along these lines like Femalt
    and Petromault -- have you tried these?  If she refuses to lick
    it from the tube, take a big glob and smear it evenly across her
    lips.  She'll have no choice but to lick it off.  Another suggestion
    is to mix some oil in her food such as Linatone or maybe some mineral
    or cooking oil.  Brushing her coat regularly will help keep hairballs
    in check too.
    
    First and foremost, consult another vet or maybe the advice of an
    animal behaviorist.  Ivory's consistent defecation outside of the
    litterbox is her way of telling you something is wrong and she needs
    help.
    
    I'm sure other more experienced noters will shed more light than
    I have.
    
    Good luck.  I hope you can keep Ivory.
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    	
    the puking problem sounds like the one Nippa had.  She barfed
    everywhere.  Partly due to fur balls, partly due to her outdoor
    hunting/dining habits, partly due to food allergies, partly because
    she had a tummy virus.
    
    I had her treated for the virus (3 months of different antibiotics),
    started feeding Hills canned and Iams or Kat Kare (read that high
    quality food w/ out fillers and junk to be allergic to), give her
    laxatone for the hairballs - there are other things they will take too.
    
    She has not puked like she used to since the winter, just the
    occasional fur ball or whatever....I also bath her and groom her.
    I would also consider another vet, as this one does not sound like
    he is interested in helping you solve this dilemna.  I would be very
    happy to tell you more about it off line as I don't have the time to 
    note right now.
    
    Michele 
    

    Sounds like Ming when we first got her. Poor baby, she was used
    to 9-Live (Mocha hated it) so thought maybe she would eat Friskees.
    She did and walked away from her dish (sometimes) and up it came.
    She would continue as she walked through the house. Along comes
    Sheba which both love. Both cats hate Lanatone. Don't pour it on
    or mix it in the food if you want them to eat. NO WAY !!!!
    
    She doesn't like Femalt and don't put it on her and expect her to
    lick it off, we put it on the edge of her wet food dish and she
    will lick it off.
    
    Right now we are having a problem with her and Cat Krunchies so
    afterwork today I am going to pick up either Bil-Jack or TamiAmi.
    
    I certainly do think the long hairs have more problems and light
    cats seems to get sick quicker then the darker furred ones. (Just
    my own theory.)
    
    Last but not least - GO TO ANOTHER VET
    
    Barbara

    I have a 13 year old male Himalyan.  He does vomit occasionaly
    now, but did vomit every other day before.  We were feeding him
    9-Lives and that food was contributing to his frequent vomiting.
    The vet said that it was too rich and suggested we switch to Science
    Diet.  He's been eating Science Diet and Iams for about 2 years
    now and he doesn't vomit much at all.  Hairballs once in a while,
    but he's persian and it's expected.  We groom him at least once
    a day to keep him from swallowing large amounts of hair.  
    
    As for the no pooping in the litter box, Pinouch doesn't do that
    either.  He urinates in the box, and will go poop once in the box,
    then the rest is next to the litter box in the cellar.  We did move
    his litter box and he got better, but now he's back to the same
    old habit.  He's been doing this for the past 3 years now.  The
    vet said that he's a finicky cat and likes a clean litter box every
    time he steps in it.  We've had him checked all over and there's
    nothing wrong with him.  In fact, my Dad met a woman in a pet store
    and she had the same type of cat as I do.  She mentioned that her
    cat did the same thing.  It could be that Ivory doesn't like having
    a "used" litter box, even if it is just used once.  
    
    You're not alone!!!  
    
    Melissa

    My neighbors have two cats that also used to puke all the time.  I
    know because I used to have to cat sit them and got real tired of
    cleaning up after them.  I believe they finally solved the problem
    (after about 10 years!) by switching to a better quality cat food.
    I'm not sure what they feed now, but think they tried several brands
    before finding one that agreed with them.  
    
    As for the other problem -- I haven't a clue as to causes, but might
    have a partial suggestion...  If I understand your note correctly
    she only poops in the basement?  If that's the case, maybe you can
    close in the litter boxes so that the cats can only go down to the
    litter boxes, but not get into the rest of the basement.  We did
    this in our house, using 2 by 4's and chicken wire, and a simple 
    door at the bottom.  We closed in an area about 6 feet by 3 feet for
    the litter boxes, so they're safe from paint, cleansers, tools, etc
    that we tend to store down there.  If it's a cleanliness problem
    you may want to give them more room than that, but it may help 
    contain the affected area.  Also, do you have 2 boxes?  Some cats
    don't like to poop in a box that the other cat has used.  We use
    2 LARGE boxes for 3 cats.
    
    Best of luck,
    Karen, Tristan, Tenzing and Max.

    I have found that my (part) Siamese twins have very sensitive tummies.
    Panther gets ill on anything that is too rich (i.e., heavy fat content
    like Iams, C/D or regular Science Diet or any moist food that contains
    organ meat like liver or kidneys). Eirene isn't much better than her
    brother (but at least she makes an effort to go onto an easy to
    clean surface). I've found that since going to Science Diet Light,
    and KalKan Mealtime for Finicky eaters and KalKan Bits O'Beef the
    problems have been almost nil. I suspect that the twins have a
    common kitty allergy (or food intolerance) to dye, and I know that many
    9-Lives flavors are loaded with dye (Ranch Supper in particular). 
    
    My other 5 don't seem to have sensitive stomach problems, BUT if they
    wolf down their food it is sure to come up. Pip had this problem
    until I started feeding her in a separate room where she knows that
    no one else will come in and steal her food.
                                                        
    As for defecating out side of the box, Pip was doing this when
    she was hosting a protozoa (the name of which slips my memory). The
    problem pretty much cleared up with medication. I say pretty much
    because Pip will only use the downstairs box (which is in a shower
    stall). She will urinate in the box and defecate outside it (but
    in the stall). I found that if I put another box right next to the
    other one she will defecate in the other box. From what I've read,
    there are a lot of cats that don't want to do both in the same box.
    (Note: I don't have the second box there any more as cleaning the shower
    stall is a lot easier than maintaining another box.)
    
     Deb

    Well, I have a couple of suggestions too.  
    
    About the puking.  Hairballs can be the cause of the puking, even
    if you don't find any hair in the puke.  Hairballs upset the tummy,
    and sit like a lump in the stomach until they finally come up. 
    Products like laxatone help to disolve them so that they can pass
    through the body.  If the hairball is filling the stomach, but isn't
    being coughed up, it will cause the stomach to be too full to accept
    food.  I also agree with the noters who suggested switching to a
    premium cat food.  Start combing Ivory every day, and get some type
    of lubricant into her, whether it is vaseline, linatone, petromalt,
    or just vegetable oil, get something into her.  
    
    Also, if you have only brought this up to your vet once a year at
    her yearly visits, he probably doesn't realize how big a problem
    it really is.  In five years, he has only heard about it four times.
    If you want to get his attention, and get on the road to some kind
    of diagnosis, make her an appointment to discuss the puking and
    litterbox problems now.
    
    About the litterbox problem.  How many boxes do you have?  You have
    two cats and they use the box down in the basement.  If the turds
    are laying around getting fuzzy then that suggests to me that you
    don't scoop the lumps out every day.  Cats are very clean animals,
    and a lot of them don't like to walk on other cats lumps to find
    a place to go.  She may be trying to tell you that the litter box
    isn't clean enough for her.  If you only have one box, try adding
    another box or two.  Also, try adding one upstairs in the house,
    maybe in a spare room or bathroom.  She may be protesting that she
    has to go downstairs to the basement to go to the box.
    
    Don't give up on her.  You have had her for five years.  Maybe she
    is protesting your upcoming marriage.  Have you noticed that her
    naughty behavior has increased lately??
    
    I would call the vet, make an appointment.  Take a stool sample
    with you (shouldn't be hard to get ;^}, but be sure that it is fresh,
    put it in a plastic bag and refridgerate until the appointment).
    Be sure to tell him that the problem is so serious that you are
    thinking about finding her a new home.  
    
    Jo

    
    Wow, I'm overwhelmed by your kindness and suggestions....thanks!
    
    Just to answer a few questions from the previous notes:
    
    	- Yup I do have two boxes - but whoever mentioned they don't
    	  like pooping where they urinate may be on to something!!
     	  Maybe I ought to get a third box....
    
    	- Yup, she only goes in the basement (she used to go in the
    	  bathtub, but hasn't done that in a long time)
    
    	- Yup, all I've really ever fed her is 9-Lives. I will deinitely
    	  try IAMS or the Science Diet.  I've read a lot about them
    	  here and have often thought of it, but I really didn't realize
    	  that 9-Lives could be the cause of all this.
    
    	- I do brush her, probably not as often as I should, but she
    	  hates it and the only time I can do it is when she's eating.
    	  There's absolutely no way I'd ever get her into the bathtub, 
    	  I don't even need to try it.  She's a very scitzo (sp?) cat!
    
    	- I'll try the IAMS or science diet, and if that doesn't work,
    	  I'll consult another vet.
    
    I was so relieved to hear that I'm not alone and that others have
    gone through these problems.  I feel more confident then ever that
    there is a solution, somewhere, it just may take some time.
    
    Again, thanks for all your help - I knew when I entered this note,
    I'd go home tonight with a new attitute about Ivory.....THANKS!
                                   
    Barbara

    Barbara,
    
    I think that Iams and Science Diet and C/D are all wonder ful foods
    and might clear up the problem if your cat has a problem with the
    *DYE* in foods, but if it is a problem with the food just being
    too rich (and most of the premium foods that I mentioned are just
    that), you might want to try feeding the Science Diet *LIGHT* (it
    is good quality, low ash, low mag, but lower calorie and less rich
    since there is less fat). I was at my wits end with Panther and
    Eirene until I stumbled on this. I've found that they have no problem
    with R/D, either.
    
    Once word of caution, though. You'll have to change the cat's diet
    gradually to see if it helps as a sudden switch in brands of food
    could make matters worst.
    
    Deb

    It may take time to diagnose exactly what will stay
    in the tummy.  I have three Siamese, and Dream will
    return Kat Krunchies about twice a week.  She also
    returned Iams and Science Diet Light, so I've given
    up hope ;-).  I just clean up, brush them, give them
    Laxatone (which two out of four enjoy.  Charm licks it
    right off the top of the tube), and grin and bear the
    rest!
    
    Also, it takes some fine tuning even on the moist food.
    Someone mentioned Kal Kan Mealtime for finicky eaters.
    Mealtime is one flavor I can't feed any of them.  Returns
    like clockwork!  It can differ substantially from cat to 
    cat.
    
    Mine will also not go in a "substandard" box.  *They*
    determine "substandard" not *me*!  
    
    Good luck, and don't give up yet!
    
    Mary-Michae, Niniane, Charm, Dream and Boogie
    

    Just a couple more suggestions...
    
    If your cat doesn't like Laxitone, the "cleanest" (ha ha) way to
    give it to them, is to open their mouth like you would if you were
    giving them a pill, and smear the Laxitone on the roof of their
    mouth.
    
    In addition to more litter boxes, you may want to change them more
    often (we change our boxes twice a day).  This may seem extreme,
    and you may be wondering how much litter we go through.  Well, since
    we only put an inch in each box, it cuts way down on the volume
    of litter, and the cats have no problem with that.  Changing is
    much more pleasant when you simply dump the entire contents of the
    box, rather than trying to fish everything out.  The cats appreciate
    the cleaner box, too.  Oh by the way, its a good idea to wash the
    box with soap & water every week or so.
    
    Paul
        

    Re: .11   After 36 years of having from 1 to 5 cats, last year we
    figured out the simplest thing that I'm ashamed to admit it took
    so long to figure it our. Now we slip the cat litter box into a
    kitchen-sized "Cinch Sack", draw the string, push the plastic into
    the box and add whatever amount of litter is needed. When it's time
    to dump (2 to 3 days with our current 2 cats), reverse the bag on
    itself and  presto a clean litter pan, no dirty hands and no dust.
    
    The best ideas are always the simplest.  Hope others can use the
    idea.
    
    Chuck, Jane, Doobie & Peaches (And a new kitty we get tonight -
    more later.)
    

    Re: .12   We tried using plastic liners in the cat box, the problem
    we ran into was shredded plastic... none of our cats are declawed.
    So, any time they tried to bury whatever they had just deposited,
    they ended up snagging the plastic, often strewing litter all over the
    floor, and generally making ribbons of the plastic bag.  That didn't
    help us when we tried to lift out the bag, so we just gave it up.
    
    Paul

    I also have the same shredding problem.  I use newspaper on the bottom
    of the box, then add the litter on top.  I use VERY deep boxes, and
    they don't seem to make it down to the newspaper.  They did when it was
    plastic.  I think that some of mine just have a thing for plastic!!
    
    Anyway, the newspaper on the bottom at least makes the whole thing dump
    out easier, and there's no litter stuck to the bottom. 
    
    The plastic bag idea sounds great for those non-diggers out there!!
    
    cin
    

    Cin, are you saying that you:

    	1. Put a newspaper on the plastic and then dump in the litter

    OR

    	2. Put a newspaper in the box, put down the bag and then dump in
           the litter.?


    Deb

    Re: previous few    I guess I forgot to add that this really only
    works for de-clawed cats (Let's not get into a discussion of claws
    vs de-claws)
    
    Chuck
    

    Deb,
    
    I don't use the plastic bags at all, although, now that you mention it,
    it's a great thought.  I think I'll try it this week!!!
    
    But, what I am doing now is putting down the paper in the bottom, and
    then covering it with litter.  During cleaning, I dump the box into a
    big trash barrel that I have just for the purpose.  I take the scooper
    and push the paper out of the bottom of the box.  It eliminates the
    wet litter from sticking on the bottom.  
    
    I never thought of putting the plastic and then the paper on top of
    that, but it's a great idea.  I'll let you know how it works out.
    
    cin
    

    re:  plastic bags
    
    Firstly, place the box inside the plastic bag.  Place the newspapers
    on the bottom of the box (this puts the paper on top of the plastic
    bag - Then put in as much litter as you wish.  When you are ready
    to empty the box, draw the top portion of the bag over the box and
    the litter and paper will be inside the bag.  Close bag - chuck
    bag .  Work real well - sometimes in hotels I use two plastic bags
    if I have a serious excavator with me - if the litter is deep enough
    you may not need two bags - you might want to place plastic bag
    with litter inside a paper bag, in case the plastic bag develops
    a hole during transport to the dump or sidewalk (for those with
    trash pickup) - or the inside of your trunk will look like mine
    !!
    
    E.T.

    Hi,
    
    You can use either Femalt or Laxatone - Femalt comes in a fish
    flavor, which seems to appeal more the the furfaces.  If they
    won't lick it from the tube, take an inch or so on your finger
    and rub it into the fur on their paw (from the toes up to the
    wrist - rub it in good so they will have to lick it off).
                      
    Have you tried Blue Seal Kat Kare - low ash, low magnesium, low
    fat - feed and grain stores carry it (notes about it somewhere
    in the file) - a good canned food is Old Mother Hubbard - low
    everything also.  I don't know where you live - so I can't tell
    you where you can find this stuff.
    
    I'm sure you have tried everything, but how about taking the poop
    clumps you find on the floor and placing them back in her box and
    introducing her to them in the box.  
    
    Is she a pet persian cat?  Some Persian breeders, when their kittens
    are tiny, line their boxes with diapers - consequently, when they
    sell their kittens, owners sometimes have problems getting their
    new kids to use litter - they are used to using diapers.  Don't
    know about your situation, but maybe you could try using disposable
    diapers as box liners and no litter at all.  Just a thought!
    
    Good Luck,
    
    E.T.
    

         Fresh Feliners.  They come 2 in a package and work pretty well,
    though they do leave plastic remnants where the stickum is.  But my
    boys haven't been able to shred the liners (yet).
    
                                       - Andrea

    
    	Andrea - mine manage it. Guess it's while they're
    	trying to dig that hole to China at 5 am...scratch,
    	scratch, scratch.....
    

    I have another use for those Feliners.  My stud cat has a favorite
    place to spray in his room when the girls are in season.  So, I
    hang a Feliner there when the girls come into season.  After he
    sprays on it, I throw it away and put a new one up.  It really helps
    keep his room from smelling, and is easier than scrubbing down the
    walls, and carpet when he sprays.  Probably wouldn't apply for most
    pet owners, but I do know that some people have had trouble with
    their neutered males spraying.
    
    Jo

    re: 22
    
    Hmm.  sounds like a neat idea, Jo.  I'll remember that - my
    friend just got a male Brit - maybe he will have a favorite
    place!!  Thanks for the tip!
    
    E.T._doing_only_girls_right_now

    Hi Barbara,
    
    Remember me from MRO3?  How is Ivory doing?  Have you tried new
    catfood - any improvement?
    
    Anyway, I was reading Cat Fancy this weekend and came upon something
    that reminded me of your litterbox problem with Ivory.  The last time 
    we spoke about your kitties, I remembered they're Persians - right?
    
    Someone wrote in with an answer to a reader's problem of their Persian 
    pooping outside the litterbox.  They would urinate in the box with no 
    problem, but refused to poop in it.
    
    The reader said that Persians are very clean animals, and hate to be 
    dirty for even a minute.  Because of their long hair near their backside,
    their poops sometime get caught, and they hate the feeling of being
    dirty back there.  I guess going outside the box decreases the chance
    of the poops sticking to their backside (anyone getting grossed out
    yet?  sorry) so they refuse to use the box.
    
    Did Ivory have this problem when she was younger?  Maybe that's what's
    turning her off of going in the litterbox.
    
    The reader suggested putting newspaper right outside the box so that
    the cat may learn to poop on the paper instead of in the box.  Maybe
    it's worth a try?  It's definitely a lot better than collecting them
    from all over the cellar!
    
    Good luck
    Pam

    What about trimming the hair back there.  Would that help?